"Symbol of Christianity?"

[dadof10]

Satan has MANY more followers PROCLAIMING to BE Christians than actual Christians that EXIST.

LOL...And you got this little tidbit from.....?

 

[Gabe]

Does your 'cross' SHOW a TRUE afilliation with Christ or simply show those that see it that you are a PART of a 'church' or 'organized religion' that they detest?

When Muslim's see me wearing a cross they do not see it as a sign that I am a part of a 'church' or an 'organized religion' that they detest, they see it for what I intend it to stand for, the fact that I am a true follower of Christ. Muslims do not hate the 'church' the 'cross' or its traditions; they hate the fundamental truths of Christianity that we all adhere to, for example: The virgin birth through the Holy Spirit, Jesus Christ as God's 'Son', us being all God's children, this is what Muslims detest and find blasphemous, not the 'cross' and this is what atheists find ridiculous, not the 'cross'.

My biggest point is that the cross is NOT a 'sign' of ANYTHING other than a 'man-made symbol' that may or may NOT represent ANYTHING to DO with God or His Son. For there are MANY that attend churches that are LOST, (including the churches themselves). Satan has MANY more followers PROCLAIMING to BE Christians than actual Christians that EXIST. For each, the cross AND the name Christian itself are JUST 'words'. And it is NOT what one CALLS themselves that MAKES the difference. It is WHAT one is willing to sacrifice that DOES.

MEC

you've lost me. how does what one calls themselves OR what one is willing to sacrifice, have to do with the wearing of a cross?

It seems to me that those who do not like the symbol of the cross seem to want to portray the believers who do wear the symbol as somehow inferior, this is not the case no matter how many times it is said and only serves to highlight your own pride and prejudices. I'm sure Satan has MANY more followers PROCLAIMING to BE Christians who choose to NOT wear a cross than actual Christians that EXIST who choose to NOT wear a cross.

To me (and I'm sure to most who have read your post) it would seem that you are suggesting (or at least trying to suggest) that Christians who wear a cross or who are not against the wearing of a cross, are only Christians by name and not through works.

Do you believe that because you do not wear a cross that it somehow makes your faith stronger than mine? does it also mean that I am willing to sacrifice less than you? if not, then what's your point?

 

[St Francis]

Satan has MANY more followers PROCLAIMING to BE Christians than actual Christians that EXIST.

Perhaps we should let God be the judge of that

 

[Imagican]

Guys, The world is LOST. And the world is FULL of those 'claiming' to be Christians. Simple deduction to realize that MANY that make such claims are following something 'other than' Christ.

I wonder exactly HOW those that see you wearing a cross KNOW that you live up to and fulfill the conditions of BEING a 'Christian'?

For in MY country, there are many that wear crosses that have NO affiliation with Christ WHATSOEVER. In my country we even have Satanists that wear crosses. So I find it extremely suspect that you even understood my question in the first place.

I have NOTHING against 'the cross'. Other than it being the means of suffering and death of perhaps hundreds of thousands of people. I wonder if one of YOU had been murdered upon a cross innocently HOW you would feel if you were able to look down upon humanity and see them WEARING this symbol around their necks?

MEC

 

[Vic C.]

I wonder exactly HOW those that see you wearing a cross KNOW that you live up to and fulfill the conditions of BEING a 'Christian'?

Conditions???

I have NOTHING against 'the cross'. Other than it being the means of suffering and death of perhaps hundreds of thousands of people. I wonder if one of YOU had been murdered upon a cross innocently HOW you would feel if you were able to look down upon humanity and see them WEARING this symbol around their necks?

He knows who his sheep are and knows who hear His voice. He can separate the sheep from the goats regardless of what one is wearing around their necks. Now stop judging those of the Faith who wear a cross around their necks, please! :-?

 

[Imagican]

Vic,

I have made NO attempts at judgement of anyone here. I simply asked a couple of questions that seemed pertinent to the subject.

Let me apologize if anyone thinks that I have offered judgement on them.

My point Vic is that there ARE many NON-Christians that wear crosses. So the cross around one's neck is NOT necessarily a 'sign' that one has accepted and follows Christ.

Knowing this is the reason that I asked the questions that I did.

The individual to whom I directed the questions stated that those that SEE them wearing a 'cross' KNOW that they ARE a Christian. I was just wondering HOW?

It becomes apparent that there is MORE to the 'cross' than 'meets the eye' in the simple fact of the WAY in which it is defended. It is as if there are MANY that worship the cross, (the symbol), MORE than what it stands for, (and I am NOT judging ANY individual).

MEC

 

[Gabe]

...one CANNOT KNOW that one wearing a 'cross' has ANY afflitiation with God or His SON PERIOD...

...The individual to whom I directed the questions stated that those that SEE them wearing a 'cross' KNOW that they ARE a Christian. I was just wondering HOW?...

My previous posts have obviously gone over MEC's head.

For in MY country, there are many that wear crosses that have NO affiliation with Christ WHATSOEVER. In my country we even have Satanists that wear crosses. So I find it extremely suspect that you even understood my question in the first place.

likewise, I find it extremely suspect that you even understood my answer. I'll try to make it easier to understand this time around.

I was born and raised a Muslim. my entire family were Muslims. Almost all my friends were Muslims. The community I used to live in was almost entirely Muslim. When I converted to Christianity, I was disowned by most of my family, by most of my community. I suffered a great deal of physical and verbal abuse at the hands of my community. As I have already stated in a previous post: when someone who had been a Muslim for his entire life, starts walking around with a cross around his neck, people KNOW that they ARE a Christian. What part of that did you not understand in my previous post?

NO ONE WALKS AROUND A MUSLIM COMMUNITY WEARING A CROSS FOR FASHION, whether they are Muslim, Satanist, Agnostics or Atheists. If it is done, it is because they are followers of Christ.

the cross AND the name Christian itself are JUST 'words'. And it is NOT what one CALLS themselves that MAKES the difference. It is WHAT one is willing to sacrifice that DOES.

How 'Christian' one is and the wearing of a cross have nothing to do with one another, but I will address this statement regardless. I was willing to sacrifice my family, friends, safety and social standing. I do not consider myself a Christian only by name. I could ask you the same: what are you willing to sacrifice?

it is MOSTLY a 'false emblem' or belief in something that few if ANY would be willing to participate in if given the opportunity. For who among us would DIE for it?

How exactly do you know what other Christian brothers and sisters are willing to do?

Every time a Christian in the East is seen wearing a cross or speaks to a Muslim about Christ, they risk death. Apostasy in Islam is punishable by death. In Islam, your own family can be willing to kill you for it, as a Muslim it is their duty to do it.

 

[St Francis]

...one CANNOT KNOW that one wearing a 'cross' has ANY afflitiation with God or His SON PERIOD...

So what. We cannot KNOW that you do either. So whats your point.

 

[Imagican]

My point is that a metal cross worn on one's neck is simply a 'piece of jewelry'. Symbolic? Pehaps but not NECESSARILY symbolic of what MOST would insist.

Furthermore, in reference to there BEING many followers of SATAN that profess to BE followers of Christ, do you honestly BELIEVE that God's intention will be to destroy a world FULL of the followers of His Son? We have NO evidence that God has EVER destroyed those that TRULY love Him. Yet we have the words that plainly offer that the world WILL be destroyed and ALMOST every inhabitant of it, (considering that there are now OVER 6 billion people on the planet, the salvation of a couple of million would be insignificant compared to the total. And that is IF there are a couple million that TRULY follow God and His Son).

We are CERTAINLY able to look to those that were the original followers of Christ and gain MUCH insight into 'symbolism' and the ORIGINAL meaning of the word. Not that this EVIDENCE is able to convince ANY that choose 'their OWN way', it is certainly compelling in that these WERE the FIRST followers of Christ. And these were well versed in the commandments AGAINST 'graven images' of ANY sort. That there WERE those that 'came along LATER' and altered the understanding doesn't in ANY way CHANGE the 'truth' except in the hearts and minds of those that CHOOSE to accept the alteration.

MEC

 

[Imagican]

...one CANNOT KNOW that one wearing a 'cross' has ANY afflitiation with God or His SON PERIOD...

So what. We cannot KNOW that you do either. So whats your point.

My point is that so many of you folks are insistant that there is POWER in a 'graven image'. The power to portray one's affiliation WITH Christ. This is nonsense in that ANYONE proclaiming ANYTHING can wear a cross. So it's significance in the respect that YOU defend is NON existant except in your imagination.

Do you place your FAITH in a symbol that you wear around your neck? The significance of the cross is NOT that 'you wear one' but in that it was the means with which the Romans brought about the death of our Savior. If 'I' had been the one nailed upon such an instrument of torment and torture, the LAST thing I would want would be to reminded of the pain I had suffered upon such a device.

Yet so many are so 'caught up' in the sybolism thing that that they often fail to even consider WHAT the sybolism ACTUALLY stands for.

As far as we know, the sybolic graven cross was created by Satan in order to celibrate the death of his enemy; Christ. For we find NO such sybolism used until hundreds of years AFTER his death. And then introduced by those that murdered Him. Those how were well adapted to sybolism long before either the birth or death of Christ.

Question: how do you KNOW the shape of the 'cross' that Christ was nailed to? If you don't know, then the sybol that you wear may WELL BE a complete and utter DECEPTION offered by 'something other than Christ Himself OR God'. That simple really. Do you honestly believe that YOUR intention is MORE important than the TRUTH?

MEC

 

[Imagican]

For those of you that refuse to contemplate my words; let's say that TO ME, a NAIL represented Christ being NAILED to the cross. So, I make me a bunch of little gold plated 'nails' and sell them as a 'symbol' of Christ's death. Would that 'nail' be any more or any LESS symbolic than a 'cross'?
How about a 'spear' or a 'crown of thorns'. Are THESE any LESS symbolic of Christ's death than the 'cross'?

We NOW live in an era of FAITH. Look up it's definition. There is nothing faithful contained within anything made by the hands of men.................

MEC

 

[Gabe]

My point is that a metal cross worn on one's neck is simply a 'piece of jewelry'.

Yes, and?

Symbolic? Pehaps but not NECESSARILY symbolic of what MOST would insist.

And?

Furthermore, in reference to there BEING many followers of SATAN that profess to BE followers of Christ, do you honestly BELIEVE that God's intention will be to destroy a world FULL of the followers of His Son? We have NO evidence that God has EVER destroyed those that TRULY love Him. Yet we have the words that plainly offer that the world WILL be destroyed and ALMOST every inhabitant of it, (considering that there are now OVER 6 billion people on the planet, the salvation of a couple of million would be insignificant compared to the total. And that is IF there are a couple million that TRULY follow God and His Son).

NO ONE on this thread is questioning how many will be saved. You mentioning this would suggest that you are associating Christians who wear crosses with followers of SATAN who profess to BE followers of Christ. You (who do not wear a cross) are just as likely as me (someone who does wear a cross) of being a follower of Satan; when will you acknowledge this fact? because this is getting tired.

We are CERTAINLY able to look to those that were the original followers of Christ and gain MUCH insight into 'symbolism' and the ORIGINAL meaning of the word. Not that this EVIDENCE is able to convince ANY that choose 'their OWN way', it is certainly compelling in that these WERE the FIRST followers of Christ. And these were well versed in the commandments AGAINST 'graven images' of ANY sort. That there WERE those that 'came along LATER' and altered the understanding doesn't in ANY way CHANGE the 'truth' except in the hearts and minds of those that CHOOSE to accept the alteration.

I cannot comment on what others view as 'graven images' (I originally posted in this thread, in response to something else) but i do not view the cross as a graven image; when people see me it highlight me as a follower of Christ, just as a cross on a map is placed there to highlight a destination. Every Christian who has ever done this before a trip cannot seriously be accused of worshiping or drawing a graven image.

How about the drawing of mathematical symbols? or the 'question mark' used by YOU in your posts?

 

[Gabe]

My point is that so many of you folks are insistant that there is POWER in a 'graven image'. The power to portray one's affiliation WITH Christ. This is nonsense in that ANYONE proclaiming ANYTHING can wear a cross. So it's significance in the respect that YOU defend is NON existant except in your imagination.

We ALL realise that ANYONE proclaiming ANYTHING can wear a cross. I certainly am not suggesting otherwise. but YOU refuse to acknowledge the example i gave you, wherein the cross DOES have the power to portray one's affiliation WITH Christ; this is not nonsense and it is not NON existant except in my imagination. it makes perfect sense.

Go to Bangladesh; i assure you that anyone you see wearing a cross is willing to sacrifice as much (if not more) than you are for Christ.

Do you place your FAITH in a symbol that you wear around your neck? The significance of the cross is NOT that 'you wear one' but in that it was the means with which the Romans brought about the death of our Savior. If 'I' had been the one nailed upon such an instrument of torment and torture, the LAST thing I would want would be to reminded of the pain I had suffered upon such a device.

NO, i do not place my faith in a symbol (and there you go again with that 'question mark' symbol)

If Christ did not want us to be reminded of the pain He had suffered upon such a device, then He would not have allowed it to be written into the Holy Bible and I’m sure that it would be the LAST thing YOU would want, but you are not God.

Yet so many are so 'caught up' in the sybolism thing that that they often fail to even consider WHAT the sybolism ACTUALLY stands for.

It stands for whatever the wearer chooses it to stand for.

As far as we know, the sybolic graven cross was created by Satan in order to celibrate the death of his enemy; Christ. For we find NO such sybolism used until hundreds of years AFTER his death. And then introduced by those that murdered Him. Those how were well adapted to sybolism long before either the birth or death of Christ.

Who told you this, Satan?

Question: how do you KNOW the shape of the 'cross' that Christ was nailed to? If you don't know, then the sybol that you wear may WELL BE a complete and utter DECEPTION offered by 'something other than Christ Himself OR God'. That simple really. Do you honestly believe that YOUR intention is MORE important than the TRUTH?

Answer: it does not make a difference what shape the actual cross was, the cross is not meant to be an exact replica of the cross that Christ was crucified on.

 

[Rick W]

Wearing of the cross = Freedom of Religious Expression.
:smt102

Nobody's forcing anyone to wear a cross. Or forcing anyone not to. At least not in the freeworld anyway.

 

[Gabe]

Wearing of the cross = Freedom of Religious Expression.
:smt102

Nobody's forcing anyone to wear a cross. Or forcing anyone not to. At least not in the freeworld anyway.

Very true...its a shame that some do not seem to understand this.

For those of you that refuse to contemplate my words; let's say that TO ME, a NAIL represented Christ being NAILED to the cross. So, I make me a bunch of little gold plated 'nails' and sell them as a 'symbol' of Christ's death. Would that 'nail' be any more or any LESS symbolic than a 'cross'?
How about a 'spear' or a 'crown of thorns'. Are THESE any LESS symbolic of Christ's death than the 'cross'?

No, they would not be any less symbolic than a cross, but it may not be as easy for people in islamic countries to identify you as a Christian. I presently live in the UK and everyone assumes that i am muslim.....until they notice the cross i wear.

and you CAN buy gold-plated nails which symbolise Christs sacrifice.

We NOW live in an era of FAITH. Look up it's definition. There is nothing faithful contained within anything made by the hands of men.................

Main Entry:
1faith
Pronunciation:
\ˈfÄÂth\
Function:
noun
Inflected Form(s):
plural faiths \ˈfÄÂths, sometimes ˈfÄÂthz\
Etymology:
Middle English feith, from Anglo-French feid, fei, from Latin fides; akin to Latin fidere to trust  more at bide
Date:
13th century
1 a: allegiance to duty or a person : loyalty b (1): fidelity to one's promises (2): sincerity of intentions
2 a (1): belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2): belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1): firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2): complete trust
3: something that is believed especially with strong conviction ; especially : a system of religious beliefs <the Protestant faith>
synonyms see belief
 on faith : without question <took everything he said on faith>

PS- The Bible you read was made by the hands of man.

Gabriel

 

[Imagican]

...one CANNOT KNOW that one wearing a 'cross' has ANY afflitiation with God or His SON PERIOD...

So what. We cannot KNOW that you do either. So whats your point.

I disagree. For those that follow Christ will CERTAINLY be 'able' to recognize OTHERS that do as well. Enough of my words are recorded on these forums for those that care to read them and discern whether they are based on 'truth' or 'something else'. If they are 'truth' then they can come from ONLY one source for God IS the source of ALL TRUTH and Satan IS the Father of LIES.

MEC

 

[Imagican]

Guys and Gals? I have NOT attempted to 'regulate' ANYONE'S behavior or choice of jewelry that they wear. What I have attempted to do, (and I still can't believe what I read from ali), is point out that a METAL CROSS IS a 'graven image', (made by the hands of MEN, (or women). Symbolic? Perhaps. But of NO more or NO less effect than wearing a 'peace sign' on one's neck so far as PROVING affiliation with ANYTHING. That is PERFECTLY apparent by simply OBSERVING 'who' are WEARING them.

Do you reacon the apostles were 'wearing crosses' around THEIR necks? Yet Paul told us to BE 'like HIM'. So far as we KNOW there WERE NO CROSSES until the Catholic Church INTRODUCED them. The Jews CERTAINLY were UNLIKELY to have 'created them' as jewelry for they were WELL VERSED in the commandment NOT to 'worship graven images'. Study for YOURSELF before you decide to 'condemn me' for the offering.

Right/Wrong? I cannot SAY with complete authority. But I CAN say without ANY doubts whatsoever that ANY piece of jewelry that one wears IS a 'graven image. Not MY definition but the definition of 'graven image ITSELF'.

If I died for Christ and the means of my death was a bullet to the brain in His defense, I don't believe ANYONE would be HONORING ME by having a 'golden bullet' MADE to wear around their necks in MY memory. As a matter of FACT, if NO ONE even knew what I looked like, ANY image that they chose to use to portray ME would be INNACURATE and a means of DISHONORING me instead of attempting to HONESTLY honor me.

There is EITHER TRUTH or there is NOT. EVERYTHING IS based on ONE or the OTHER. PERIOD. ONLY when we are confused over this issue IS Satan ALLOWED into our hearts in order to influence us to HIS desires. Can we KNOW everything? Impossible. But we CAN KNOW what God 'wills' us to KNOW. Much is contained within The Word. MOST of what matters MOST. Yet many seem to be able to disregard that which they DON'T agree with for the sake of what THEY
'want' or desire.

I have 'made up' NOTHING. I have simply offer OPEN and HONEST words. Words of FAITH in what has been offered to ME. That EVERYONE seems offended by these words makes me wonder WHY?............................

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Imagican]

Oh, and the gist of the inference that i get here is that there are those that do NOT believe that God has ANY power. God IS 'all powerful'. Do you HONESTLY BELIEVE that He is incapable of KEEPING His Son from being disgraced?

MEC

 

[Free]

a METAL CROSS IS a 'graven image', (made by the hands of MEN, (or women).

Have you even defined what 'graven image' means? Do you know what it means?

 

[Gabe]

Guys and Gals? I have NOT attempted to 'regulate' ANYONE'S behavior or choice of jewelry that they wear. What I have attempted to do, (and I still can't believe what I read from ali), is point out that a METAL CROSS IS a 'graven image', (made by the hands of MEN, (or women). Symbolic? Perhaps. But of NO more or NO less effect than wearing a 'peace sign' on one's neck so far as PROVING affiliation with ANYTHING. That is PERFECTLY apparent by simply OBSERVING 'who' are WEARING them....

.....I have 'made up' NOTHING. I have simply offer OPEN and HONEST words. Words of FAITH in what has been offered to ME. That EVERYONE seems offended by these words makes me wonder WHY?............................

Blessings,

MEC

No, not really. I'm not offended, in fact i find your silly rants pretty amusing.....as do most on this board.

Gabriel