"Symbol of Christianity?"

[Gabe]

I think this may be a good way to be "identified" as a Christian, rather than a symbol. How about loosing the symbols and allowing people to know we are Christians, by our fruit?

Mat 7:16 By their fruits ye shall know them.

C

How about both?

 

[Gzuz the Man Child]

So when someone guilty of murdering millions of people wears a cross around their neck, you will know they are a Christian and they stand for truth, justice, love and godliness right?
No, both does not work. It is impossible, irrational, impractical and inconsistent.

 

[Gabe]

So when someone guilty of murdering millions of people wears a cross around their neck, you will know they are a Christian and they stand for truth, justice, love and godliness right?
No, both does not work. It is impossible, irrational, impractical and inconsistent.

So are you saying that it is impossible for others to know that you are a Christian by your fruit AND be able wear a cross around your neck at the same time? Mate, it is you who is irrational and inconsistent.

 

[Cornelius]

[quote="Gzuz the Man Child":a89a4y0c]So when someone guilty of murdering millions of people wears a cross around their neck, you will know they are a Christian and they stand for truth, justice, love and godliness right?
No, both does not work. It is impossible, irrational, impractical and inconsistent.

So are you saying that it is impossible for others to know that you are a Christian by your fruit AND be able wear a cross around your neck at the same time? Mate, it is you who is irrational and inconsistent.[/quote:a89a4y0c]

I did not read that understanding into Gzuz's post. He is just saying that wearing a cross does not make you a Christian. He did not say that wearing a cross and bearing fruit would make it impossible for people to know you are a Christian.

 

[Gabe]

[quote="Gzuz the Man Child":2j2huyq5]So when someone guilty of murdering millions of people wears a cross around their neck, you will know they are a Christian and they stand for truth, justice, love and godliness right?
No, both does not work. It is impossible, irrational, impractical and inconsistent.

So are you saying that it is impossible for others to know that you are a Christian by your fruit AND be able wear a cross around your neck at the same time? Mate, it is you who is irrational and inconsistent.

I did not read that understanding into Gzuz's post. He is just saying that wearing a cross does not make you a Christian. He did not say that wearing a cross and bearing fruit would make it impossible for people to know you are a Christian.[/quote:2j2huyq5]

And I also never claimed or implied that wearing a cross makes you a Christian, so if your understanding of what Gzuz meant is correct (which I think it is not), then why address his apparently random statement to me?

 

[dadof10]

A few more thoughts, in verse form.

Matthew 15:3 And he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition?

Matthew 15:6 And ye have made void the word of God because of your tradition.

Mark 7:8 Ye leave the commandment of God, and hold fast the tradition of men.

Mark 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well do ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your tradition.

Colossians 2:8 Take heed lest there shall be any one that maketh spoil of you through his philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ:


2 Thessalonians 2:15 So then, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye were taught, whether by word, or by epistle of ours.

Not all traditions are condemned in Scripture, just the man-made ones, like Sola-Scriptura, Sola-Fide and invisible church.

"I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you" (1 Cor. 11:2)"

"So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thess. 2:15). Which puts oral Tradition on par with written (Scripture).

"Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is living in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us" (2 Thess. 3:6).

"[W]hat you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also" (2 Tim. 2:2). And these oral Traditions are to be "handed on".

 

[Gzuz the Man Child]

What I meant about the "both" is that they aren't both valid ways to symbolize you are a Christian. Lots of people have been crucified on crosses, so it doesn't only stand for Christs' death no matter how used to it you are. And the majority of Christians don't even BELIEVE that they were "CRUCIFIED WITH CHRIST" on the cross, so to them, it's totally POINTLESS!!!!!

Sure, you can go ahead and let your Christianity be seen in works, and wear a cross and the cross isn't going to suddenly negate the fact that you did good things. It doesn't cancel it out. But they aren't both good ways to show you're a Christian. If a cross was a good way to show you're a Christian, then all these sinners wouldn't be wearin' them around everywhere would they, gettin' crosses tattooed all over as if it meant something to them.

The cross is a joke these days, it doesn't symbolize Christianity, if anything it symbolizes worldly religions that people CALL Christianity and probably 98% of the people wearing crosses today and pasting them all over their churches are going to end up in the lake of fire anyways. The cross doesn't mean a thing! What means something is what happened, not what you use to symbolize it! Stop thinking like the rest of the world does and get a grip people!

Just because everyone else does it doesn't mean you have to do it! And if you're thinking of a way to defend it right now, then you KNOW you have a problem! And why would anyone feel the need to WEAR a stupid symbol so badly and defend it anyways?! TRADITION! Tradition that is pointless and sometimes ridiculous! People, we need to grow up and stop doing whatever the silly, childish religious organizations do or say and whatever the rest of the world does and do our own thing! Do what Jesus did, he took up his cross and said we should too. And he didn't mean a wooden one. This is crazy!

 

[Gzuz the Man Child]

And I'm not sayin' go throw your crosses away. I'm just helping you to see the MOTIVE behind it, the POINTLESSNESS of it all. A lot of people don't even think about why they do what they do, and I tend to try to help wake people up from their sleep, get them to think about real issues and not what they're going to do about the next football game.
;)

 

[stranger]

Imagican wrote:

I too TEACH Christ Crucified. But I do NOT dwell on HIS DEATH as much as the PURPOSE of His death. For He died so that we may live. And God could JUST as easily preordained Christ to die by the hand of a sword, starvation, stoning, etc.

The cross IS significant in that upon IT he SUFFERED. But NOW He LIVES. The cross is 'symbolic' in it's significance. But a 'graven image' of it SERVES the FLESH and NOT the Spirit. It offers SOME sort of COMFORT to THE FLESH for SOME reason and offers NO significant distinction between ONE LIVING IN SIN and one that HAS 'TRULY' accepted Christ INTO THEIR HEARTS.

IS THERE A WAY to USE the cross WITHOUT it being NOTHING other than a 'symbol' or 'graven image'.

Hi MEC,

The carrying of the cross was to lead to the crucifixion. From what I have discovered, when all is said and done, is found in Romans 6:1-4. We are to suffer, be crucified with the Lord, buried and then finally raised from the dead to wake up in newness of life. If a man bears his cross all his life till he is blue in the face - but never submits to being baptised (by God) in the sense of Romans 6:1-4 then he is also consigned to walk in the flesh all the days of his life. This is the same as living in sin as you have pointed out.

 

[Gabe]

What I meant about the "both" is that they aren't both valid ways to symbolize you are a Christian. Lots of people have been crucified on crosses, so it doesn't only stand for Christs' death no matter how used to it you are. And the majority of Christians don't even BELIEVE that they were "CRUCIFIED WITH CHRIST" on the cross, so to them, it's totally POINTLESS!!!!!

That is why it should be left up to the individual to decide if they want to wear one or not. It may not mean anything to you but it may to someone else.

Sure, you can go ahead and let your Christianity be seen in works, and wear a cross and the cross isn't going to suddenly negate the fact that you did good things. It doesn't cancel it out. But they aren't both good ways to show you're a Christian. If a cross was a good way to show you're a Christian, then all these sinners wouldn't be wearin' them around everywhere would they, gettin' crosses tattooed all over as if it meant something to them.

If wearing the cross does not effect your good works, then I don’t see a problem or the need to try and attack this practice. if you are against wearing crosses because "sinners" wear them, then maybe you should be against good works also, because many people who show others that they are Christian through their good works sin secretly without others knowing...until they're caught (paedophiles, rapists, murders, thieves etc) wearing a cross is not a factor.

The cross is a joke these days, it doesn't symbolize Christianity, if anything it symbolizes worldly religions that people CALL Christianity and probably 98% of the people wearing crosses today and pasting them all over their churches are going to end up in the lake of fire anyways. The cross doesn't mean a thing! What means something is what happened, not what you use to symbolize it! Stop thinking like the rest of the world does and get a grip people!

Actually, it is not the cross that many non-Christians find a joke, its Christianity itself and probably 98% of the people NOT wearing crosses today and pasting them all over their churches are ALSO going to end up in the lake of fire any ways because as I have already stated, wearing a cross or not wearing a cross does not effect how Christian you are.

Just because everyone else does it doesn't mean you have to do it! And if you're thinking of a way to defend it right now, then you KNOW you have a problem! And why would anyone feel the need to WEAR a stupid symbol so badly and defend it anyways?! TRADITION! Tradition that is pointless and sometimes ridiculous! People, we need to grow up and stop doing whatever the silly, childish religious organizations do or say and whatever the rest of the world does and do our own thing! Do what Jesus did, he took up his cross and said we should too. And he didn't mean a wooden one. This is crazy!

I am not trying to defend the wearing of crosses and I do not have a problem. To me, the wearing of crosses is a non-issue (it does not matter one way or the other) and what I find pointless, stupid and childish is people trying to force their dislike of the cross onto others. Your emotional and rude statement that others see the cross as a symbol of death is wrong and that is what I was addressing. How does wearing a cross stop anyone from taking up their cross? This idea, which you are trying to convey with emotions and insults, is what is truly crazy!

I wear a silver cross and I also have one tattooed on my body along with the Lords prayer. This has not stopped me from taking up my cross. I have been disowned by most of my family and am hated by most of my old community because of my faith (I used to be a Muslim) and because I wear a cross I’m supposedly doing what the rest of the world is doing...how?

And I'm not sayin' go throw your crosses away. I'm just helping you to see the MOTIVE behind it, the POINTLESSNESS of it all. A lot of people don't even think about why they do what they do, and I tend to try to help wake people up from their sleep, get them to think about real issues and not what they're going to do about the next football game.

Does your dislike of the cross constitute a "real" issue?

PS- I hate football.

 

[Gzuz the Man Child]

Hey Gabriel,
I guess I need to be more specific. I'm not attacking the cross, I have nothing against crosses in actuality, even if I am coming off that way (on purpose), but in a debating manner, I'm isolating the minset of this thing (wearing symbols). Any cross-wearing person, (or any other symbol for that matter) is automatically going to defend themself in this situation. Why? I'm not attacking THEM am I? So why would they feel a strong urge to defend themself? It's because they've never thought "oustide of the box" on that issue, and because of that, it seems foolish to them, and people tend to "insult what they don't understand" as the Bible says. So, what I'm doing is trying to get this symbol defending person to engage their mind, question why it REALLY is they do what they do, and get them to actually consider that maybe what they are doing is totally the opposite of what they've convinced themself of.

It's the mindset. It's not good for people to live in a fairy tale land. It's self-destructive. If you can convince yourself that wearing a symbol will do something it won't, then what else might you convince yourself of? For instance, holidays again. Sure, most people would argue that holidays are fine, and if you just do it so you can see your family, because that's what they do, or something like that, then you're right. But most people celebrate a holiday, because that's what they were taught to do, so they join the crowd of sheeple and follow the shepherd. They never even consider for a moment why they do what they do, and a shepherd can lead you into a destructive trap with ease, once he gets you to trust him and disengage your critical thinking processes.

This is a form of mind control, and this is how public relations works. Manipulation of the minds processes and memory. Once you have gotten someone to accept something as normal, they won't question it anymore. For instance, terrorism (as most understand it) though it hardly exists and nearly 100% of terrorism is carried out by governments and people in high positions of power, because they have repeated and repeated and repeated to you that there are these "shadowy enemies" lurking in caves and now in your own country, you believe it, even without seeing it, you have faith in it. If you were to think critically of it, you would see the farce and catch the lies. Yet, what most people do is hear it enough times that they believe it is true and it establishes itself as truth in the mind, whether it is true or not.

Holidays are the same way, if you see it repeated and repeated and repeated, over and over enough times, it begins to become commonplace. Even if noone ever did celebrate the given holiday, and you just heard about it all the time, you would automatically assume that it exists. Then, as others begin to celebrate this holiday for various reasons, and you remember that you know about this holiday, automatically you will follow suit, especially when people ask why you aren't celebrating with them! You are instantly manipulated into something that has no point whatsoever, and you don't question it or care anymore. It's normal. Then, you'll run into someone else who doesn't celebrate the holiday, and you'll question why THEY don't also! And the cycle continues, until you meet someone like me.

This is the point where I question you, why do you celebrate that holiday anyways? And at this point, you would respond, "Well, because I like the meaning of it", (not true, or you would have done it when nobody else did) when in reality, you are doing it because it has become commonplace and that's what everyone else you know does and you don't see anything wrong with it. But what is wrong with that? It's illogical and pointless. And that's not even the problem.

The problem is that you have effectively shut down your critical thinking, thus opening yourself up for further manipulation. Over a period of time, the holiday can change course, and you'll never even know it, it'll just continue to be commonplace. This is where it will get a little more difficult for the shepherd of the operation, as he has to ensure that he doesn't speed up the change too quickly and alert the sheeple. Things need to change incrementally so that you don't notice and engage your critical thinking yet once again. As long as a steady pace in change is maintained, you will probably never question why there is change at all. And that change can effect your entire worldview.

You will begin to accept Santa Clause (who is a replacement for Christ) as being okay, because you're so used to it. And you've rationalized (so you think) or convinced yourself that it is fine because, just as the holiday itself is harmless, so is Santa Clause. No doubt the shepherd will give reasons why Santa Clause represents something good or has a good purpose, when in fact, he has an ulterior motive. You none-the-wiser follow along, helping your shepherd to advance his agenda, and never realizing that the problem for you specifically isn't the holiday or the Santa Clause, but it's the kool-aid drink at the end of his plan that is the problem.

Or not even going that far, it's the issue that once your trust has been gained and you've gotten so used to using faulty logic that you begin to double-think, you open yourself up to deception in other areas of your life.

Notice, when Christ gave the warning to his disciples to "beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Saducees" (which we know to be their teaching), he also mentioned "beware of the leaven of Herod" in another account. Notice how he makes a broad statement, he is saying, watch out for leaven in all of it's forms, because it is trickery. And if you open yourself up to one, and are slowly overtaken, you will fall to the other. This is why it is dangerous to believe the lies of the ruling elite and their public relations (propoganda/mind control). Once you have closed your mind off to critical thinking, questioning, logic, and even CARING and have learned to trust someones word, they will even teach you not to trust OTHERS.

Then Mr. Christian comes along, sharing some truth, after you've fallen for the lies of Herod, and you are closed because your logic is so flawed now and your critical thinking is washed away to the point of double-think (opposing thoughts within your own train of thought), that you aren't even able to understand it now, you are fallow ground my friend. The seed gets cast onto hard ground and birds go and eat it right up and it gets trampled underfoot. The Word is a waste for that man. That's why Jesus warned us of this.

So, let me recap. This isn't about crosses, this isn't about symbols, this is about the PURPOSE and the MINDSET of following what others do and not considering that your neglect today, could cost you your life tomorrow. No matter WHAT the situation is.

This is not about crosses. This is about YOUR MIND.

So, this goes for anyone. Those that wear a symbol of anything, they are trying to identify with something. But if the symbol doesn't ACTUALLY identify you with it, then what is the point really? It's a fairy tale land in the mind. You're actually being sucked in by this totally unnecessary thing, making excuses for doing this unnecessary thing, though you ACT as if it is necessary!

Can you see where the problem lies?

Not with the symbol, but with you.

Did that make more sense.
See, small things in the physical world, are big things in the spiritual world.
Hatred is as murder.
Lust is as fornication.
Lies are just as bad as anything else.
Theft is just as bad.
Lack of faith is sin.
Fearfulness is evil. (rev.21:8)

If you start to train your mind to dismiss the things you consider small or non-issues, your mind will disengage and lead you to destruction.

Laugh if you will.
Read Revelation 21:8
See if you think it's a joke

"But for the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and drug-users, and idolaters, and all liars, their part shall be in the lake that burneth with fire and brimstone; which is the second death."

Small things will kill you too, if you're not careful.

 

[Gzuz the Man Child]

I would like to submit this quote as an example of what I just previously said. I just found this after typing all of that up, and I laughed, I couldn't believe I found such a perfect example! Read along with me. Let's analyze this.

I think there is a world of difference between a symbol and an idol. One is simply a declaration to other folks of a certain mindset one has. I don't think that there is any difference between wearing a necklace with a cross or crucifix on it and wearing a sweatshirt with an American flag with "God Bless America" emblazoned across it or having a "fish" on the bumper of one's car.
Illogical reasoning and double-think begins here. Because someone wears an american flag shirt, it's okay to wear something else. That didn't prove that it was okay to wear the American Flag shirt, the proof that the symbol is not an idol begans with an assumption, one that used the same problem as proof for there not being a problem. Double-think.

For many, the cross even isn't that much of a symbol, as it is a popular form of jewelery. I think at this point, it's as if the mind is being washed down a river and grabbing at sand on the bottom to stop itself from being washed away over a waterfall. See how the excuses continue, the justifications are using the problem as the solution.

Remember how I said that if you repeat something enough and make it commonplace someone will accept it? Well...
I don't know if you are old enough to remember peace symbols. When I was a kid a necklace with a peace symbol on it was very popular as jewelery. Most of my friends had them, and none of us little 7-10 year olds were radical hippies. They got suckered and suckered you in. I was surprised when my parents wouldn't let me get one, because of what the peace sysmbol represented to them. You see so many today who wear crosses, yet have no affiliation with Christianity. To them, the cross is like the peace symbol was to me when I was a kid, a popular form of jewelery. Seems harmless to you, but to the one who created it, it was a clever trick to get you on the road of irrational thinking and unnecessary justification. The need to justify it isn't there, but you do it regardless of that. See what I mean? You now COVET that symbol, even if what it means to someone else doesn't mean that to you. That's how marketing works. Public relations.

I'm not saying that there are not some who do elevate crosses and crucifixes into iconic, even idolarty. If one actually genuflects before a cross, or prays and kisses it, then yes, one is straying into idolarty. The person who feels the need to wear one because other people do has done the same thing. Your point about the Bible is a good one. Some raise the physical bible to iconic status, rather than just recognizing that the ink, paper, and paste is nothing, it's the words contained within with which the Spirit brings us to life. True, and my point exactly, the spirit of it. Just because some are wrong and do place the ink, paper and paste upon a pedalstal, doesn't mean that we should stop printing bibles.
That statement was totally random. The problem wasn't with the cross or the bible, it was with the person. The cross had no purpose at all, other than being an object to BE worshipped. The bible carries MUCH, MUCH purpose. The parallel is inconsistent and illogical. See how this works? the mind is already so far off track that it thinks it is proving something with a random statement.

But for most folks, that simply isn't what wearing a cross is all about. (Outright Idolatry) It's just jewelery, that for some is a statement regarding who they are.

Okay, wow. Where did that come from? The person sees it as "JUST" jewelry, yet at the same time, they can now see it as a statement of who they are at the same exact time? Obviously they don't see it as "JUST" jewelry if they see it as making a "STATEMENT". If others consider it just a piece of jewelry as well, then it isn't really a statement at all anyways, is it?

(And why do people see the need to make statements like that anyways? Do you need to brag that badly? Trust me, that is pride right there. You see anyone wearing something that says, "Hey, I'm a ex-convict!", haha, I sure don't do that. People wear symbols that make them feel special in front of others. It's total pride. You're showing off to others, you do it to be seen. Just like praying out loud and giving contributions in front of crowds. Same thing.)

It's either JUST jewelry for show, or it's a STATEMENT and not just jewelry. (Though, both can be incorporated together.) The first one is the one that is impossible. (The only one illogical one that was stated.) See how this works? Deception in one meaningless area of your life can lead you into justifying all kinds of things that DO matter. At this point, the mind is ready to do it all over again.

No offence to the person who posted that which I quoted. It was just an example. And for those of you who feel you need to know who it was and go looking to find out, shame on you. I protected them by changing their name for a reason. I don't want anyone to feel stupid, just because I wouldn't care if someone posted my name if they critiqued my words publically doesn't mean others don't care. Let's do unto others as we'd like them to do unto us.

Feel free to do it to me, and use my name too, I really don't mind, but while I'm thinking of it, it's probably best not to do what I just did and keep the persons name up there, as it could be taken offensively by some.

Sorry if it was, my apologies, it's not an attack, I'm just trying to state observations that prove my point. To me, it was a good example. Thanks actually! :D

 

[Gzuz the Man Child]

Oh yeah, Gabriel, I'm with you, I hate football too.

And the rest of the games that are called sports. But, I'm kinda weird like that. :P

 

[Imagican]

When we witness the likes of 'Rappers' and 'thugs', "prostitutes' and 'sports figures', many of whom show OPENLY their 'anti-christian' behavior, standing in front of the world thanking God for their bounty and openly wearing bejeweled crosses, is it even POSSIBLE not to see that the cross has offered NOTHING to these other than their ability to wear them in a MOCKING manner?

Much like the date of Christ's birth, I don't believe God has allowed an overabundance of that which is TRULY Holy to be blasphesized, (new word?), by those that would certainly do so if given the means.

In other words, that which is truly holy is reserved to those that ARE truly holy in nature. Those 'things' that are most precious are reserved for those that ARE most precious in God's eyes. And THESE THINGS would be KNOWLEDE more so than ANY 'symbol'.

It was NOT 'the cross' that brought salvation but the MAN that died upon it. And it was NOT the MEANS by which He died but the REASON that brought us salvation.

I have a very difficult time understanding the reasoning behind WEARING a 'cross'. If it is simply a 'symbol' then I again state that it IS 'a graven image'. Other than that, what other purpose could it serve? Do you believe that bringing into rememberance the METHOD of suffering performed by Christ is a GOOD thing? Do you believe that those that condemned Christ to DIE did a 'good thing'?

I have witnessed MOST of those that I have encountered wearing crosses acting NO DIFFERENT than the REST of the world. Hmmmm.......... What kind of testimony is THAT? "I am JUST like the REST of the world EXCEPT i AM A CHRISTIAN". That is about as watered down a testimony as one could offer. I do EVERYTHING that the rest of the world does but I am DIFFERENT because I BELIEVE in Christ? What kind of an example is that to offer as testimony. WE ARE TO BE SEPARATE from this world AS CHRISTIANS.

So, while many seem to believe the cross 'offers them something', I offer that it is NOTHING other than a 'graven image' that has absolutely NO bearing on ANYTHING other than THAT. For one CANNOT KNOW that one wearing a 'cross' has ANY afflitiation with God or His SON PERIOD. If ANYTHING, it is MOSTLY a 'false emblem' or belief in something that few if ANY would be willing to participate in if given the opportunity. For who among us would DIE for it? In this reference it would seem as though the symbol were offered in a mocking manner rather than one of BELIEF in ANYTHING.

MEC

 

[Gabe]

GZUZ:

Man, I thought I was the only guy here who hates all sports. Does this mean that we're both weird?

MEC:

Its not as clear-cut as you presume. I suppose it depends on your location but believe me, when you are of Asian origin and you walk through a predominantly Muslim community wearing a cross, it IS obvious to people that you have an affiliation with Christ and in my experience it IS very dangerous to do so. Regardless of the abuse hurled at me: slapping, spitting and cursing, I continued to do so and as a result I witnessed to many Muslims and even non-Muslims (whites are almost as shocked to see a Bengali guy wearing a cross) not all who wear crosses are interested in being like the world, in my case it made me the total opposite. Also my wearing of the cross has nothing to do with pride, being spat on is not something to be proud of.

God bless,
Gabriel

 

[Gzuz the Man Child]

I see where you're coming from Gabriel, in a sense. How'd you like my ranting and raving I did last night? that was pretty long, man. :D haha

Anyhow, I'm aware that in other areas of the world people still view the cross as representing Christianity, or at least, what they UNDERSTAND Christianity to be. Most people though, even MANY Christians don't even know what Christianity is really about. That's the sad thing. If God uses it to draw people to you to share the Word with, then that's great, I'm not going to knock that. But I do feel that as a Christian, a lot of misconceptions about Christianity could be avoided by not wearing the cross and acting as a Christian acts.

People all have this kind of, vision in their minds of what Christianity is, and because most of the worlds' Christianity is totally polluted with trash, they think it's absurd and obscure, ridiculous and irrelevant, and that we are the ones who are dreaming visions of a false reality. A big reason for this, is that people these days don't believe God. They don't believe that he has already healed them, so they don't get healed. They don't believe that he perfects his people in holiness of living, and so they are never perfected. They don't believe that God is against his people using violence, and they are never protected by him, and go out to protect themselves waging war and fighting with others.

They don't believe in spiritual gifts, so they never experience them. They don't believe in a biblical method of leadership, so the pastors become the masters of their own congregations, ruling over them. They don't believe God chose them, or that he is the one that changes them, so they aren't truly thankful for his grace, and they don't bear much fruit, because they feel they do it on their own. They don't believe in the power of God to answer a prayer, so their prayers are rarely if at all answered. They don't believe he doesn't want them to sin, so they continue to sin and live immoral lives. They don't believe men would lie to them, so they trust their leaders to tell them the truth, without being critical and exploring for themselves and are led astray. They don't believe that ________ .
Fill in the blank.

These are many of the problems with Christianity today, and the world is not impressed by a weak and powerless confusing God. People are never confronted about their guilt before God and his laws and THEN given the good news, and they are led astray in hopes of a life changing experience that will improve thier life on earth, until trials come in and steal away that hope based on a lie or a misunderstanding. People teach God is only love, no repentance, no faith, no anger, no law. Just love. And it makes no sense, it doens't answer any of the questions they have, and they see it as foolishness. Now, people can't be convinced into salvation, it's not possible. God must draw them and grant them repentance and give them understanding and I'm aware of that. But, at the same time, we have our job to do and we should do it the way Jesus did.

So, my point with all of that rambling was that in my opinion, it's probably pretty pointless to wear a cross to show you're a believer, do what Jesus and his disciples did.

Matthew 10:8 Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons: freely ye received, freely give.

And such like. How's that for a symbol of your faith?

 

[Gabe]

.....How'd you like my ranting and raving I did last night? that was pretty long, man. haha.....

Yes, I understand more clearly now what you are saying, it seemed strange to me at first because it looked like your comments were only aimed at the wearing of crosses but I see that it goes a lot further than that....and yeh that's a long rant. I'm going to have to quote you more often just to fill-out my replies.

 

[Gzuz the Man Child]

Cool, I thought you'd get it if I took enough time to explain it. Though, I still did a crappy job. Oh well.
Did you actually read all of my long posts?
I just read through them again.
It's kinda crazy, I felt like I was reading something someone else wrote.
I kept agreeing with it as if I wasn't even the one who wrote it, hahahha.
I felt dumb when I caught myself.

I really don't know how I thought all that stuff up. I'm really pretty dumb, I think.
:/
But, it did make sense, even though I had to stop and re-read my own sentences, haha, they got confusing at times.

My brain just gets into these weird focused times sometimes where I'll just be able to focus and do a huge Bible study or commentary, then the rest of the day I'm just retarted and if the people around me heard me talking like that, they'd probably think I had two personalities, I never even talk like that at all.

Yeah, so it was weird reading through my own stuff, definitely weird.
Didn't sound like me at all.

Anyways, it does go a lot deeper than you'd think, actually, apparently it goes a lot deeper than I though, I kinda learned all of that as I was saying it.
That happens a lot.
Not sure how that works, but it happens.
I've been told that it's the gift of teaching, that I can teach something I don't even understand and learn it while I say it, but I'm very hesitant to CALL MYSELF a teacher.
Like a pastor calling themself a pastor.

It's ridiculous, anyways....

I've learned the last few years that, a LOT OF THINGS go much deeper than they seem on the surface.

Just like the Spirit of the Word vs the Letter of the Word

Here, read this study I did that I posted.
Tell me what you think about it.

It's titled "The Spirit of the Word"


http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7295165

Take it easy,
Marc Stinebaugh

 

[Imagican]

GZUZ:

Man, i thought i was the only guy here who hates all sports. Does this mean that we're both weird? :D

MEC:

Its not as clear-cut as you presume. I suppose it depends on your location but believe me, when you are of Asian origin and you walk through a predominantly muslim community wearing a cross, it IS obvious to people that you have an affiliation with Christ and in my experience it IS very dangerous to do so. Regardless of the abuse hurled at me: slapping, spitting and cursing, i continued to do so and as a result i witnessed to many muslims and even non-muslims (whites are almost as shocked to see a Bengali guy wearing a cross) not all who wear crosses are interested in being like the world, in my case it made me the total opposite. Also my wearing of the cross has nothing to do with pride, being spat on is not something to be proud of.

God bless,
Gabriel

Does your 'cross' SHOW a TRUE afilliation with Christ or simply show those that see it that you are a PART of a 'church' or 'organized religion' that they detest?

My biggest point is that the cross is NOT a 'sign' of ANYTHING other than a 'man-made symbol' that may or may NOT represent ANYTHING to DO with God or His Son. For there are MANY that attend churches that are LOST, (including the churches themselves). Satan has MANY more followers PROCLAIMING to BE Christians than actual Christians that EXIST. For each, the cross AND the name Christian itself are JUST 'words'. And it is NOT what one CALLS themselves that MAKES the difference. It is WHAT one is willing to sacrifice that DOES.

MEC

 

[St Francis]

....the cross is NOT a 'sign' of ANYTHING other than a 'man-made symbol' that may or may NOT represent ANYTHING to DO with God or His Son....

Thats crazy