"Symbol of Christianity?"

[handy]

Frankly, I think whoever designed the chair had some goofy idea of modern artwork. I must admit, it does look sort of bad. I don't think the pope inspects the chairs he sits in when he visits foreign countries though. Do you think he brought his own chair?

Then again, it could have something to do with Peter who was crucified upside down:

Bingo. The upside down cross is known as Peter's Cross and is logically enough associated with the popes. The Cross of Christ, protrayed with a figure is never represented upside down. The fact that satanists also use an upside down cross just shows their lack of originality. The Catholic's used it first.

 

[Imagican]

Frankly, I think whoever designed the chair had some goofy idea of modern artwork. I must admit, it does look sort of bad. I don't think the pope inspects the chairs he sits in when he visits foreign countries though. Do you think he brought his own chair?

Then again, it could have something to do with Peter who was crucified upside down:

Bingo. The upside down cross is known as Peter's Cross and is logically enough associated with the popes. The Cross of Christ, protrayed with a figure is never represented upside down. The fact that satanists also use an upside down cross just shows their lack of originality. The Catholic's used it first.

Simple question:

Which came FIRST: the worshiping of God, or the worshiping of 'false gods'?

MEC

 

[turnorburn]

God

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Frankly, I think whoever designed the chair had some goofy idea of modern artwork. I must admit, it does look sort of bad. I don't think the pope inspects the chairs he sits in when he visits foreign countries though. Do you think he brought his own chair?
Then again, it could have something to do with Peter who was crucified upside down:

Bingo. The upside down cross is known as Peter's Cross and is logically enough associated with the popes. The Cross of Christ, protrayed with a figure is never represented upside down. The fact that satanists also use an upside down cross just shows their lack of originality. The Catholic's used it first.

Simple question:
Which came FIRST: the worshiping of God, or the worshiping of 'false gods'?
MEC

What has THAT got to do with the price of rice in China?

 

[turnorburn]

Was it a trick question or did you really want to know the price of tea in China?
Why would you ask a question like that?,(I worship God, what was your answer?)

Simple question:

Which came FIRST: the worshiping of God, or the worshiping of 'false gods'?

God came first, I suppose you'll start talking about pre-creation creation


MEC

 

[Catholic Crusader]

...Was it a trick question or did you really want to know the price of tea in China?...

I just don't know what that has to do with the chair we were talking about.

To be honest, I don't know what came first, because I don't read Genesis literalistically. I believe our first parents we created by God in a state of grace, and that the race fell by their sin. I believe that is what Genesis One teaches. Now, when exactly that happened, how long it took, and what all happened in between, I have no idea. And with all due respect, neither do you. Genesis is not a technical timeline: It is an ancient style of Semitic writing meant to convey truths.

 

[turnorburn]

Lets not talk about that chair

otherwise...

"This cross is not broken, but turned upside down. It indicates the rejection of Jesus Christ and contempt for the gospel of salvation. Inverted symbols are typical of the opposite values pursued by Satanists. People who are sometimes sacrificed to Satan on Black Sabbath are crucified upside down in accordance with this tradition. "

I don't want to start trouble. I want you to see things that millions of people can't, I'm just afraid
my feeble attempts will lose out in the end. I am so sorry. Now this is going to eat on me to no end.
Plus I have an Italian family that believe, they sincerely believe that I'm just another Jesus freak

Peters cross as you call it has its roots in Satanic rituals as well as Witchcraft. The upside down cross, well I did say I didn't want to go there, so you look it up. I'd rather this thread didn't
get locked like the others, this would make three...

 

[Catholic Crusader]

...Peters cross as you call it has its roots in Satanic rituals as well as Witchcraft....

...I'd rather this thread didn't get locked like the others..

Don't worry bro: I'm not mad. I admire your zeal! :D .

But, didn''t Satanic rituals come AFTER Peter's death? So wouldn't it be more a matter of Satanic rituals aping Christian beliefs? Satan is a great ape, you know.

 

[Imagican]

CC, turnorburn,

Sorry for not addressing the questions sooner, (busy you know). But here goes:

Bear with me for there IS an answer and it IS pertinent to the topic. A little foreknowledge first though.

Did Adam and Eve worship God? I'll leave the answer to that one up to YOU.

But we DO KNOW this:

Gen.6
[1] And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
[2] That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
[3] And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
[4] There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
[5] And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
[6] And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
[7] And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

Do you reacon that those refered to as 'wicked continually' were WORSHIPING God? Or is it a fair assuption to believe that they had veered AWAY from God and were worshiping 'false gods'?

We can 'jump ahead' and find that there existed CIVILIZATION in Egypt that was technologically LIGHT YEARS in advancement compared to that of the Hebrews. Do you reacon that the Egyptians were worshiping the TRUE God?

Now, back to the original question. We don't have ANY evidence from the Bible that Adam and Eve worshiped God. We have NO information that ANY of Cain's decendants worshiped God. We know if ANYTHING, from the ousting of Adam and Eve from the garden, that the HEART of man fell FURTHER and FURTHER from God till it was considered BY Him to BE 'evil continually'. ALL except ONE MAN.

So, God's RELATIONSHIP with Adam and Eve MAY VERY WELL HAVE preceeded the worshiping of 'false gods', but do we KNOW that there was WORSHIP offered by EVEN THEM? If you say YES, then what you offer is SPECULATION in the place of knowledge. For the indication of what we have been offered is that man almost IMMEDIATELY began to worship OTHER GODS instead of the ONE TRUE God.

Now, this is JUST knowledge that we are able to obtain from The Word. What about what we are able to discern from the study of history that we ARE able to consider KNOWLEDGE?

Do the Hebrews PREDATE the Egyptians? How about the Babylonians. Do the Hebrews PREDATE the Babylonians? Hmmmmm........ If ANYTHING, the story of the 'tower of babel' offers evidence that the BABYLONIANS predated PRACTICALLY everyone else so far as WORSHIP. Their 'building a tower to heaven' MUST have been a 'form' of worship from what we have been offered. And obviously the 'form' of worship that they offered was NOT proper or they would NOT have been thwarted in their efforts.

One more little piece of information that is NEEDED in order to discern the answer to the question posed. What do we KNOW of ancient man and his rituals that we have been able to discern that goes BEYOND what has been offered trough The Word?

We are STILL able to plainly SEE evidence of the worship of 'ancient man' in peoples that STILL exsit today. South American natives, African natives, North American Indians as well. Some of these are STILL practicing ritual that PRE-DATES the Hebrews.

So, do we KNOW that man WAS worshiping God BEFORE what we have been offered as evidence according to The Word? I have found LITTLE evidence of such contained within The Word. One may PRESUME differently, but that is NOT evidence OR proof of ANY sort.

Now, what does this have to do with the question posed? Here is the significance:

The cross as used in 'religious symbolism' PRE-DATES Christianity by THOUSANDS of years. We have MUCH evidence of the use of crosses in MANY different cultures and religions WELL BEFORE this 'symbol' was adopted by or introduced INTO 'Christianity'. I constantly hear the PRESUMPTIONS offered by those that inist upon 'their OWN understanding' that UTTERLY ignores ANY evidence EXCEPT their OWN FEELINGS. And often their 'feelings' COMPLETELY in contradiction to that which IS able to be discerned through the Word or what we have learned OUTSIDE of The Word, (for one MUST admit, that as far as HISTORY is concerned, The Word has offered a VERY limited account of MUCH of the history of 'ancient man').

An UPSIDE down cross may well have been adopted by those that USED it in reference to the crucifiction of Peter. But the 'truth' is that symbolism such as this was used LONG before Peter was EVER BORN.

Do you believe that 'symbols' are able to contain POWER? How about WORDS? If your answer is NO, then I guess that would go a pretty good distance in explanation of the LACK of understanding that surrounds the USE of 'symbols'. BUT, if you simply read what is offered in The Word, you WILL find that WORDS have MUCH power, (often refered to in the Word as 'lips' 'mouth', 'utterance', etc.....). If WORDS have POWER, then SO TOO do 'symbols'. If NOT, then WHY do you suppose that there is SO MUCH OF IT. Used in advertising, representing groups, and, what we discuss here RELIGION?

I can ASSURE you that the ancient Egyptians were WELL versed in the UNDERSTANDING Of significant symbols that they used in their religious practices. The advertising industry today preys upon us through the USE of 'symbols'. Musicians of ALL sorts are ENAMORED with the 'symbols' that they CHOOSE to 'represent' themselves, or offer in 'representation' to others.

How many people have you SEEN with symbols tattooed upon their FLESH? How many with their 'symbols' pasted across the backs of their vehicles? Even CLOTHING today is encrusted with symbolism. And you HONESTLY THINK that it has NOT significance other than as a 'pretty picture' or a 'neat shape'? Hmmmmmm.........you folks sometimes make ME feel like some sort of a 'sage' or 'wizzard' when it comes to UNDERSTANDING. And I AM NOT. Just a 'simple man' ATTEMPTING to live a simple life in a 'simple world'.

Nothing NEW under the SUN. Get it? Yes, technology changes. Our understanding changes. But the principalities and powers that EXIST have NOT changed since their 'creation' except in their METHODS of 'delivery'.

Now, if there was 'symbolism' offered in religious context concerning FALSE gods, LONG BEFORE it was EVER offered INTO Judaism or Christianity; The PURE AND UTTER indication is that SUCH is OF THIS WORLD. Concerning that which is contained WITHIN the PHYSICAL, (although containing spiritual power). Now, WHAT god chooses to be acknowledged THOUGH this 'physical world'? What 'god' is it that would HAVE us live IN and FOR this 'world'?

I leave the answers to these UP TO YOU. Just attempting to offer sound understanding in a 'world' gone CRAZY through it's use of 'symbolism'. The WORD would DEFINITELY find my offers LUDICROUS, 'crazy', rediculous and such it IS so far as the WORLD is 'concerned'. But there is HIGHER understanding than that which is ABLE to be offered FROM this 'world'.

MEC

 

[Catholic Crusader]

You're killing me. :D

I can't read all that. Can you distill that down a little for me?.

.

 

[Imagican]

JUST for YOU!!!, (he he he).

Symbolism can be traced BACK to religions WAY BEFORE the Hebrews. This being stated, those that practiced their worship through 'symbolism' OUTSIDE of the knowledge of the TRUE God were worshiping FALSE gods.

And this symbolism was KNOWN by those that practiced it's use to BE of 'power'.

Yet this POWER of symbolism and the worship of 'false gods' had NOTHING to do with The Creator of mankind.

The cross is JUST another symbol who's USE can be 'traced back' thousands of years BEFORE Christ. And this symbol was NOT adopted by the Jewish Christians, (the apostles), in ANY sense that we are able to VERIFY. Leading to the logical assumption that it was ONLY offered AFTER Christ was INTRODUCED into OTHER cultures. And these other CULTURES were the ONES that STARTED this USE OF THE CROSS in relation to CHRIST. A bit of paganism offered INTO Christianity.

Was that 'better'?

MEC

 

[Catholic Crusader]

JUST for YOU!!!, (he he he).

Symbolism can be traced BACK to religions WAY BEFORE the Hebrews. This being stated, those that practiced their worship through 'symbolism' OUTSIDE of the knowledge of the TRUE God were worshiping FALSE gods.

And this symbolism was KNOWN by those that practiced it's use to BE of 'power'.

Yet this POWER of symbolism and the worship of 'false gods' had NOTHING to do with The Creator of mankind.

The cross is JUST another symbol who's USE can be 'traced back' thousands of years BEFORE Christ. And this symbol was NOT adopted by the Jewish Christians, (the apostles), in ANY sense that we are able to VERIFY. Leading to the logical assumption that it was ONLY offered AFTER Christ was INTRODUCED into OTHER cultures. And these other CULTURES were the ONES that STARTED this USE OF THE CROSS in relation to CHRIST. A bit of paganism offered INTO Christianity.

Was that 'better'?

MEC

Yes. You do realize, don't you, that this sort of comparison is the same logic that atheists use to attack the Bible? Because they see similar stories in Gilgamesh, and flood stories in other cultures, they conclude the Bible is a rip off. Of course, they are wrong.

Well, just because other cultures used crosses as symbols has nothing to do with the FACT that Jesus was crucified on a cross, and therefore THIS symbol has TRUE meaning.

That is like saying since the NFL uses football stadiums, The Pope (or Billy Graham if you prefer) can't use one. I don't think that logic holds up.

 

[Imagican]

...Peters cross as you call it has its roots in Satanic rituals as well as Witchcraft....

...I'd rather this thread didn't get locked like the others..

Don't worry bro: I'm not mad. I admire your zeal! :D .

But, didn''t Satanic rituals come AFTER Peter's death? So wouldn't it be more a matter of Satanic rituals aping Christian beliefs? Satan is a great ape, you know.

Satanic worship coming AFTER the CC? Hmmmmm.................let's SEE................ NOPE, I don't THINK so.

Since Satan's fall was BEFORE the existence of MAN. And his GOAL was to BE God. I think that it these FACTS would logically point to Satan BEING worshiped by 'mankind', in GENERAL, BEFORE the worship of God Himself.

Nice try though. But you don't HONESTLY 'think' that Satan ONLY started influencing mankind TWO THOUSAND years ago?????

MEC

 

[Imagican]

JUST for YOU!!!, (he he he).

Symbolism can be traced BACK to religions WAY BEFORE the Hebrews. This being stated, those that practiced their worship through 'symbolism' OUTSIDE of the knowledge of the TRUE God were worshiping FALSE gods.

And this symbolism was KNOWN by those that practiced it's use to BE of 'power'.

Yet this POWER of symbolism and the worship of 'false gods' had NOTHING to do with The Creator of mankind.

The cross is JUST another symbol who's USE can be 'traced back' thousands of years BEFORE Christ. And this symbol was NOT adopted by the Jewish Christians, (the apostles), in ANY sense that we are able to VERIFY. Leading to the logical assumption that it was ONLY offered AFTER Christ was INTRODUCED into OTHER cultures. And these other CULTURES were the ONES that STARTED this USE OF THE CROSS in relation to CHRIST. A bit of paganism offered INTO Christianity.

Was that 'better'?

MEC

Yes. You do realize, don't you, that this sort of comparison is the same logic that atheists use to attack the Bible? Because they see similar stories in Gilgamesh, and flood stories in other cultures, they conclude the Bible is a rip off. Of course, they are wrong.

That is to THEIR detriment. Regardless of method, the truth is the truth and it is EASY to SEE that symbolism PREDATES Christianity by THOUSANDS of years.

Well, just because other cultures used crosses as symbols has nothing to do with the FACT that Jesus was crucified on a cross, and therefore THIS symbol has TRUE meaning.

And PERHAPS that meaning was introduced by the 'spirit' that HAD Christ NAILED to the cross. For we have the words of Christ Himself, "Father FORGIVE THEM FOR THEY KNOW NOT WHAT THEY DO". A pure indication that they WERE being "LED" by a DIFFERENT 'spirit' than that of God.

So FAR as we KNOW, Satan may WELL have BELIEVED he HAD 'defeated' Christ upon Him BEING nailed to the cross. We DON'T know that Satan KNEW then what we DO NOW.

That is like saying since the NFL uses football stadiums, The Pope (or Billy Graham if you prefer) can't use one. I don't think that logic holds up.

Not really. It's more like saying, "IF Satan had introduced symbolism into the psyche of mankind THOUSANDS of years before Christ, and this 'symbolism' was of the NATURE of 'this world', wouldn't it stand to reason that he has CONTINUED to influence us, (or HELPED us 'inflence OURSELVES'), through the USE of 'symbolism'?

We DO judge OTHERS by the 'company they keep'. Righteously or NOT, that's WHAT we do. And perhaps it applies in the 'same manner' here. That we are KNOWN by our symbolism. And SINCE it is FROM and OF 'this world', wouldn't that be an idication that this is WHAT we USE it to represent? For the CROSS was NOTHING other than the ROMAN means of execution. The 'cross' itself HOLDS NO POWER. The PRINCIPLE of the cross is the SIGNIFICANCE of it. Christ CRUCIFIED on a 'cross' is INSIGNIFICANT as to METHOD of execution. The ONLY significance IS that 'this WAS the means of His execution. Other than that it could have been pre-destined to BE by an ARROW, or being stoned to death, or being eaten by a lion. What DID matter was that He WILLINGLY offered His life for the lives of ALL that would ACCEPT the offer.

The ONLY way that the modern perceptions of the significance of the cross have been able to BECOME what they ARE is through the continuous bombardment of it FROM the CHURCH. The Jews needed NO symbol to signify the importance of their being FREED from Egyptian captivity after FOUR hundred years. As a matter of FACT, those that were NOT 'respecters' of the TRUE God IMMEDIATELY created an IMMITATION god as SOON as they were ABLE. And what of THIS 'symbolism'? How did Moses REACT to IT? Hmmmmmm........ Do you THINK that if what they had made and worshiped had been a CROSS Moses would have had ANY DIFFERENT reaction to it?.........

MEC

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Don't worry bro: I'm not mad. I admire your zeal! :D .
But, didn''t Satanic rituals come AFTER Peter's death? So wouldn't it be more a matter of Satanic rituals aping Christian beliefs? Satan is a great ape, you know.

Satanic worship coming AFTER the CC? Hmmmmm.................let's SEE................ NOPE, I don't THINK so.
Since Satan's fall was BEFORE the existence of MAN. And his GOAL was to BE God. I think that it these FACTS would logically point to Satan BEING worshiped by 'mankind', in GENERAL, BEFORE the worship of God Himself.
Nice try though. But you don't HONESTLY 'think' that Satan ONLY started influencing mankind TWO THOUSAND years ago????? MEC

I guess I meant Satanic ritual that use Christian symbolism. The use of Christian symbolism in Satanic rituals only came after the advent of Christianity.

 

[Imagican]

Or, perhaps, as I have proposed, Christianity simply adopted, INTO IT, symbolism that had been used for thousands of years and simply 'tried' to alter it's TRUE meaning and significance by SAYING that it represented 'something NEW'.

Yet this SAME symbol HAD previously BEEN USED for thousands of years to signify it's TRUE meaning which just 'happened' to be a less sophisticated FORM of 'Satanism'. For the worship of ANY God other than the TRUE God is 'the worship' of FALSE gods. And WHO IS the 'FATHER of LIES'?

MEC

 

[turnorburn]

You do realize don't you that the more you talk about Satan and those symbols the more he revels in it. Now that he has you focused on his charms he's one happy camper.. Wasn't it curiosity killed the
cat. Its my suggestion you drop this somewhat intelligent discussion or you'll have a

on your hands.. :

 

[Catholic Crusader]

You do realize don't you that the more you talk about Satan and those symbols the more he revels in it. Now that he has you focused on his charms he's one happy camper.. Wasn't it curiosity killed the cat. Its my suggestion you drop this somewhat intelligent discussion or you'll have a on your hands.. :oops:[/quote]
But your avatar is one of thoses symbols he's talking aboot......(?)

 

[turnorburn]

I'll Pm you there is something I want to discuss..O.k.? good* :wink:

 

[biblecatholic]

Mec,

Although I don't agree with you on "symbols, art and the like" I find that you are very consistent on the issue. You believe images are graven. You don't say a "cross" is ok but a "crucifix" is not you say both are bad..... personally- and this is just my opinion, but I think it's inconsistant to be for a "cross" or for a "picture of Jesus" and be against a "crucifix" or against " a statue"

my 2 cents