Take heed no one deceives you.

[jaybo]

Luke 23:26-37, "As the soldiers led him away, they seized Simon from Cyrene, who was on his way in from the country, and put the cross on him and made him carry it behind Jesus. A large number of people followed him, including women who mourned and wailed for him. Jesus turned and said to them, “Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for me; weep for yourselves and for your children. For the time will come when you will say, ‘Blessed are the childless women, the wombs that never bore and the breasts that never nursed!’ Then

“‘they will say to the mountains, “Fall on us!”
and to the hills, “Cover us!”’

For if people do these things when the tree is green, what will happen when it is dry?”

Two other men, both criminals, were also led out with him to be executed. When they came to the place called the Skull, they crucified him there, along with the criminals—one on his right, the other on his left. Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.” And they divided up his clothes by casting lots.

The people stood watching, and the rulers even sneered at him. They said, “He saved others; let him save himself if he is God’s Messiah, the Chosen One.”

The soldiers also came up and mocked him. They offered him wine vinegar 37 and said, “If you are the king of the Jews, save yourself.”

If you don't know who killed Jesus, this should explain it to you. It's clear and obvious that the Romans killed Jesus.

 

[Hopeful]

We are children of Abraham, through faith in Christ.
Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? Have you suffered so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain?
Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?— just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.Galatians 3:3-9

• So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.

The word perfect means complete.

It also means...perfect !

Complete as in full-stature sonship; fully transformed into Christ

Yes, perfect.

This has nothing to do with being baptized in water.

You can't be perfect without being IN Christ, and Rom 6:3 says we are baptized INTO Him..."Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?"
Thanks be to God for the Door.

 

[Hopeful]

Have you ever read Hebrews Chapter 11 or truly understand what faith is all about. You make it sound like everyone who lived before the time of Christ are damned never to have eternal life with the Father.

I don't know why you keep going back to this, as I made it clear that is not my POV.
They all had the Mosaic Law for their guidance and example in their lives.
They had the atonements for sin therein.
But they did not all have the Holy Spirit or the ability to crucify the flesh (with the affections and lusts), and walk in the Spirit instead of in the flesh.

It is only our spirit/soul that has been perfected by the Spiritual rebirth from above and that will be what goes back to God who made us a living soul. You really need to quit teaching the false doctrine of sinless perfection as the flesh will always wrestle against the Spirit that is within us.

I'm sure glad I won't be judged for the condition of my knees or eyes.
But they are just facets of the temple of the Holy Ghost now, and not really my own.
I have never alluded to a perfect body on our pilgrimage on earth.
The vessel doesn't matter.

Can you not see that there is no good thing in the flesh as our flesh where the sin nature dwells is as a filthy rag to God. This is why we need to be Spiritually born again within the inner man being our spirit and soul, not flesh and blood.

Who cares?
I am not in or of the flesh anymore since my rebirth from God's seed.
I am now a new creature.
Thanks be to God !

Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

So, which are you walking in since you were freed form the "law of sin" by the "law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus"? (Rom 8:2)
The flesh? Or the Spirit?

1Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Cor 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Cor 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

You seem to equate the corruption of/to the vessel, caused by age and injury, to some unGodliness we will burn for.
Your kindly provided scriptures focused on the "outer" and not the "inner".
It isn't talking about sin.

1John 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
1John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
1John 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

"...even as He is pure".
Don't you just love it?

 

[Hopeful]

Luke 23:26-37, "As the soldiers led him away, they seized Simon from Cyrene, who was on his way in from the country, and put the cross on him and made him carry it behind Jesus. A large number of people followed him, including women who mourned and wailed for him. Jesus turned and said to them, “Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for me; weep for yourselves and for your children. For the time will come when you will say, ‘Blessed are the childless women, the wombs that never bore and the breasts that never nursed!’ Then

“‘they will say to the mountains, “Fall on us!”
and to the hills, “Cover us!”’

For if people do these things when the tree is green, what will happen when it is dry?”

Two other men, both criminals, were also led out with him to be executed. When they came to the place called the Skull, they crucified him there, along with the criminals—one on his right, the other on his left. Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.” And they divided up his clothes by casting lots.

The people stood watching, and the rulers even sneered at him. They said, “He saved others; let him save himself if he is God’s Messiah, the Chosen One.”

The soldiers also came up and mocked him. They offered him wine vinegar 37 and said, “If you are the king of the Jews, save yourself.”

If you don't know who killed Jesus, this should explain it to you. It's clear and obvious that the Romans killed Jesus.

Everyone involved in the conspiracy killed Him.

 

[jaybo]

Everyone involved in the conspiracy killed Him.

But that's not what the Bible says! Some of the Jews shouted out, prompted by their leaders, but they didn't kill Him. The Romans killed Him, not the Jews.

Your explanation make as much sense as saying that those who cheer on their favorite team (or oppose them) determine the outcome of the game. The Romans were under no obligation to kill Jesus just because some Jews were yelling for His crucifixion. The Romans were the ones who crucified Him, NOT THE JEWS.

As the OP says, take heed no one deceives you. Either you accept what the Bible says or you don't.

P.S. All His disciples were Jews. They didn't kill Him. In fact, they fought to save Him.

 

[Hopeful]

But that's not what the Bible says! Some of the Jews shouted out, prompted by their leaders, but they didn't kill Him. The Romans killed Him, not the Jews.

Your explanation make as much sense as saying that those who cheer on their favorite team (or oppose them) determine the outcome of the game. The Romans were under no obligation to kill Jesus just because some Jews were yelling for His crucifixion. The Romans were the ones who crucified Him, NOT THE JEWS.

As the OP says, take heed no one deceives you. Either you accept what the Bible says or you don't.

P.S. All His disciples were Jews. They didn't kill Him. In fact, they fought to save Him.

If you want to assign the blame for our Lord's suffering and death to just those who hammered the nails...feel free.
But He died for me.

 

[jaybo]

Everyone involved in the conspiracy killed Him.

It saddens me that, instead of accepting what the Bible says, you have to alter it into some anti-Semitic rant that is in opposition to the Word of God.

 

[jaybo]

If you want to assign the blame for our Lord's suffering and death to just those who hammered the nails...feel free.
But He died for me.

He died for everyone! Why are you changing the subject?

 

[Hopeful]

He died for everyone! Why are you changing the subject?

I didn't think I was.

I killed Him.
I am responsible for His suffering and death.
Were I able to live without sin, without being converted, He wouldn't have needed to die for my sins.
He died because of me...and all the others who walked after the flesh.

I thank God I don't have to walk in the "flesh" anymore.

 

[for_his_glory]

I don't know why you keep going back to this, as I made it clear that is not my POV.
They all had the Mosaic Law for their guidance and example in their lives.
They had the atonements for sin therein.
But they did not all have the Holy Spirit or the ability to crucify the flesh (with the affections and lusts), and walk in the Spirit instead of in the flesh.

I'm sure glad I won't be judged for the condition of my knees or eyes.
But they are just facets of the temple of the Holy Ghost now, and not really my own.
I have never alluded to a perfect body on our pilgrimage on earth.
The vessel doesn't matter.

Who cares?
I am not in or of the flesh anymore since my rebirth from God's seed.
I am now a new creature.
Thanks be to God !

So, which are you walking in since you were freed form the "law of sin" by the "law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus"? (Rom 8:2)
The flesh? Or the Spirit?

You seem to equate the corruption of/to the vessel, caused by age and injury, to some unGodliness we will burn for.
Your kindly provided scriptures focused on the "outer" and not the "inner".
It isn't talking about sin.

"...even as He is pure".
Don't you just love it?

If you want to continue with selling sinless perfection causing a stumbling block for others who are Christians and still struggle with certain sins then only God will judge you for this.

In the Spirit we are perfect as it is our very Spirit, soul and the intents of the heart that God sees within us.

I challenge you and everyone else to read what is written in this website sinless perfection

 

[JLB]

It also means...perfect !

Yes, perfect.

You can't be perfect without being IN Christ, and Rom 6:3 says we are baptized INTO Him..."Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?"
Thanks be to God for the Door.

Transformation is a process; the process of becoming sons.


Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. Philippians 3:12





JLB

 

[Hopeful]

If you want to continue with selling sinless perfection causing a stumbling block for others who are Christians and still struggle with certain sins then only God will judge you for this.

I'm not "selling" anything.
It is available for free.
In fact, Jesus died so we could have it.

In the Spirit we are perfect as it is our very Spirit, soul and the intents of the heart that God sees within us.

So stay in the Spirit and remain free from sin.
The flesh, with the affections and lusts, has been crucified (Gal 5:24), so has no power anymore...on those who have made Jesus their Lord and Master.

I challenge you and everyone else to read what is written in this website sinless perfection

Your Bereans, the authors of your site, need more studying.

 

[Hopeful]

Transformation is a process; the process of becoming sons.

Yes it is, repentance from sin and water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins. (Acts 2:38)
From that starting point we will grow in grace and knowledge.
But having been reborn as perfect sons and daughter of God, we no longer have to commit sin.

Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. Philippians 3:12

What Paul had yet to "attain" was the resurrection of the dead.
"If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead." (Phil 3:11)
He reiterates this in the last verse of Phil 3..."21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself."

The vessel we have now will fade away, but we will not be judged on our bodies, but on our mind's control of it.

And who is he talking about in verse 15?..."Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you."
Us.

 

[Quantrill]

But that's not what the Bible says! Some of the Jews shouted out, prompted by their leaders, but they didn't kill Him. The Romans killed Him, not the Jews.

Your explanation make as much sense as saying that those who cheer on their favorite team (or oppose them) determine the outcome of the game. The Romans were under no obligation to kill Jesus just because some Jews were yelling for His crucifixion. The Romans were the ones who crucified Him, NOT THE JEWS.

As the OP says, take heed no one deceives you. Either you accept what the Bible says or you don't.

P.S. All His disciples were Jews. They didn't kill Him. In fact, they fought to save Him.

(Acts 2:22-23) "Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you...Him being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain."

(Acts 2:36) "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ."

Quantrill

 

[for_his_glory]

Hopeful if you say you no longer commit sin as you say you are already now perfect, then how do you explain 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 and as we are then changed (made perfect) in order to meet Jesus in the air as no one knows what we will look like, but that we will be like Jesus in all His glory.

 

[JLB]

From that starting point we will grow in grace and knowledge.
But having been reborn as perfect sons and daughter of God, we no longer have to commit sin.

Thank goodness as children of God we can receive forgiveness of sin, if we should stumble, being ignorant of God’s word as newly born again child of God.


If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
1 John 1:9-10



Amen.



JLB

 

[for_his_glory]

We are all born with a sin nature and not imputed with Adam's sin as scripture does not support this. All have sinned and fallen short of God's glory, that's a fact. But, to those who are of Christ need to get up every morning and crucify this flesh and walk in the Spirit so we do not fulfill the lust of the flesh. No one has to sin like it's some kind of command to do so as it's a freewill choice to fall to the temptation to sin.

Even a Spiritually born again child of God will mess up at times as we are still mortal living in this fleshly body where the sin nature dwells. Grace does not give us a license to sin, but when we do we have an intercessor (Christ Jesus) before the Father who makes intercession for us and forgives our sin when we repent of them. There will always be a struggle between the flesh and the Spirit and sometimes the flesh will win the battle, but never the war as flesh and Spirit can not mix.

Galatians 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Romans 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.


But, if we willfully sin then there is no more sacrifice for sins we commit as it will bring with it consequences brought upon our self. Spiritually born again Christians do not willfully sin, but the flesh will cause us to fall to temptations at times when we let our emotions get the best of us.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Heb 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
Heb 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

 

[jaybo]

We are all born with a sin nature and not imputed with Adam's sin as scripture does not support this. All have sinned and fallen short of God's glory, that's a fact. But, to those who are of Christ need to get up every morning and crucify this flesh and walk in the Spirit so we do not fulfill the lust of the flesh. No one has to sin like it's some kind of command to do so as it's a freewill choice to fall to the temptation to sin.

Even a Spiritually born again child of God will mess up at times as we are still mortal living in this fleshly body where the sin nature dwells. Grace does not give us a license to sin, but when we do we have an intercessor (Christ Jesus) before the Father who makes intercession for us and forgives our sin when we repent of them. There will always be a struggle between the flesh and the Spirit and sometimes the flesh will win the battle, but never the war as flesh and Spirit can not mix.

Galatians 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Romans 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.


But, if we willfully sin then there is no more sacrifice for sins we commit as it will bring with it consequences brought upon our self. Spiritually born again Christians do not willfully sin, but the flesh will cause us to fall to temptations at times when we let our emotions get the best of us.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Heb 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
Heb 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

You wrote, "We are all born with a sin nature and not imputed with Adam's sin as scripture does not support this." But Scripture says: "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned..." Romans 5:12

I agree with the rest of your post.

 

[for_his_glory]

You wrote, "We are all born with a sin nature and not imputed with Adam's sin as scripture does not support this." But Scripture says: "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned..." Romans 5:12

I agree with the rest of your post.

We are not responsible for the sins of others, but since sin entered into the world by Adam's sin of disobeying God's command now that same temptation of disobedience to God has come to all. For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, Romans 3:23.

 

[Hopeful]

Hopeful if you say you no longer commit sin as you say you are already now perfect, then how do you explain 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 and as we are then changed (made perfect) in order to meet Jesus in the air as no one knows what we will look like, but that we will be like Jesus in all His glory.

You define that "change" in a manner that indicates a change from sinner to non-sinner.
I see it as a change from mere mortal temple of the Holy Ghost to a new glorified body.
You define "corruption" as sin.
I define it as the aging of an oft injured piece of machinery...the vessel.

Your version of scripture sure mangled your last comment..."in order to meet Jesus in the air as no one knows what we will look like, but that we will be like Jesus in all His glory."
The KJV of the bible writes 1 John 3:2 thusly..."Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."
I see the last 8 words like this..."we shall see Him being as He is.
We don't need to wait for His arrival to be "like Him".