Talk About A Slap In The Face

[Pard]

YOUR people barge in and demand this land.

Who's "your people"?

Dunno... whoever the "people" he was referring to who have to "put up with Christians"

 

[Lance_Iguana]

Excuse me??? We were the first ones in this boat and all you other climb-aboarders now realize there's not enough room in the boat. So, you decide you want to throw out the Christians, just to make room.

Woah, what you are you talking about? Where am I throwing Christians out? I'm protecting everyone's rights here. As in you can disagree with them building the mosque, but you can't stop them just because you don't like it. That's not throwing the Christians out, that is protecting the minority from being oppressed by the majority. Also, wich Christians where the first one's here? Protestants, Catholics, and 7 day Adventists had their own colonies, including Mormons. Many of the founding fathers where deists and we had to kill thousands of natives to get this boat. REALITY CHECK. Christians where killing each other over land.




[quote:3gvy3qfm]No, they do not. Not unless they have an agenda. That seems to be the motivating factor these days... agendas.

[/quote:3gvy3qfm]Especially when you can make them up as you go along. Where are these meetings where all the minorities get to together and try and take down the majority? You know White Christian males? Were are they?

 

[Lance_Iguana]

I think you may possibly need glasses. I have observed in this, and other, topics that you seem to skim right over the parts of a post that you do not like and only see what you will. Because I already posted it, and I am not a fan of repeating myself, I will only let you know that this entire paragraph of yours is in error. Perhaps you should put on those glasses and reread my post

Why is it every time I talk to you, it turns into a condescending chest beating competition? Of course I'm blind to your point of view because you always deliver it as if everyone should already believe it and those of us that don't are just to blind to see.

Interesting... so the Christians carve out a nation full of rights (and all evidence points to the rights being meant for them)

You forgot to mention that Christian groups killed each other, had many massive wars with the native people, enslavement of black peopel, forced conversion or death, and how Catholics and the poor where enslaved for indentured servitude.

in the wild. They fight for their freedom from an oppressive king.

Who was head of a Christian empire.

They hold together a nation for two hundred years and at the turn of 1900s YOUR people barge in and demand this land.

Yeah, after a revolution, civil war, multiple amendments, the trail of tears, Black enslavement, Wars with both Canada and Mexico, and Manifest destiny that created hostile enviroments with the natives.

You best "put up" with the Christians,

We do honor your freedom.

because this is Christian land, first and foremost.

False it was stolen from Native americans and was done hudreds of years after the Vikings had already been here.

It's because the Christians have tolerated indecent and perverted minds that this place has fallen so far in the first place. So, uh, you are welcome...

Get off your high horse. You seriously don't know your history, or glanced over the massive part where we where a savage land, and it took hundreds of years to sort it out.

 

[Pard]

Why is it every time I talk to you, it turns into a condescending chest beating competition? Of course I'm blind to your point of view because you always deliver it as if everyone should already believe it and those of us that don't are just to blind to see.

No, literally, you read my post completely wrong. As in you obvious misunderstood my words. Read you comment and then go reread my post... Remember those glasses.

You forgot to mention that Christian groups killed each other, had many massive wars with the native people,

Welcome to the real world. You want land? You take the land. That is how nations are made... You think England is any different? Or France? Or Spain? Or Italy? Or Any of the numerous muslim nations? Seriously, you need to get over this it's a tired, and old argument and I think it should have died long ago.

enslavement of black peopel,

You misconstrue cultural Christians with real Christians. A historic look at the south will show that they were historical Christians. A further look will show you that less than 5% of the population owned slaves. And a really basic look will tell you that it was by Christians that slavery came to an end...

Go read the Democrat propaganda against Lincoln... they called him a wait for it... CHRISTIAN. Only non-Christians use the label of "Christian" as a derogatory word, or as a sole reason to vote against a man. The rich southern slave owners were not Christian.

forced conversion or death,

I'm sorry, this whole time I thought we were talking about America. Had I known we were talking about the middle east I'd have just let you jaw

and how Catholics and the poor where enslaved for indentured servitude.

OK, that made me laugh. You need to go learn a thing or two about indentured servitude...

Who was head of a Christian empire.

A tyrannical empire who killed people who did not have authorized versions of the Bible...

Yeah, after a revolution,

Against a tyrannical empire that killed people with different views...

civil war,

A war started by the Christians to end slavery and reunite the country...

multiple amendments,

It's interesting how the only people, today, who even like those new amendments are secular... It's also interesting that the amendments have always been proposed by secular people...

the trail of tears,

Talked about this before...

Black enslavement,

talked about this before...

Wars with both Canada

Now I know you have no clue what you are talking about... We never have gone to war against the Canadians... Actually... we fought in Canada against the French and then later against the British, but we never once took the land, we gave it right back to them once we get rid of the people who kept attacking us...

and Mexico,

Technically that was a war between Texas and Mexico and at the time Texas was a separate nation...

[/quote]and Manifest destiny that created hostile enviroments with the natives. [/quote]

Talked about this twice now... you do like to say the same thing over and over and over, huh?

False it was stolen from Native americans

Seriously, you need to stop saying the same thing...

[/quote]and was done hudreds of years after the Vikings had already been here.[/quote]

And before them this land was visited by the Phonecians http://phoenicia.org/america.html

They found Celtic runes in Arizona that predated both of these empires...

Why don't we add the Scottish who sailed here in the 13th century or so?

 

[Lance_Iguana]

No, literally, you read my post completely wrong. As in you obvious misunderstood my words. Read you comment and then go reread my post... Remember those glasses.

Only took one quote for you to start condescending and chest beating.

Welcome to the real world. You want land? You take the land. That is how nations are made... You think England is any different? Or France? Or Spain? Or Italy? Or Any of the numerous muslim nations? Seriously, you need to get over this it's a tired, and old argument and I think it should have died long ago.

Ok, murder good, theft good, as long as it creates a nation. I missed that chunk of Jesus's speeches then.

You misconstrue cultural Christians with real Christians.

here we go, you are shifting the blame. An imaginary line of real and not real Christians which is made after the fact. This way you are responsible for your actions. You can always shift the blame.

A historic look at the south will show that they were historical Christians. A further look will show you that less than 5% of the population owned slaves.

Where Exodus, Numbers, and Romans was used to justify slavery Read those books, Slaver is endorsed in the Bible, and Slaves are told to obey their masters. READ IT, ITS ONE OF THE CLEAREST PASSAGES IN THE BIBLE.

And a really basic look will tell you that it was by Christians that slavery came to an end...

Actually it was because of Judges, and the working of thousands of people united against the act of slavery. Many of them weren't Christians. Guess which Christianity was taught to the black people. Yep, that false one you where just saying was bad. I see this little flip flop here, Where you say Christians took credit for both enslaving and releasing them...............Do you understand that isn't a noble statement?

Go read the Democrat propaganda against Lincoln...

Now you are dragging democrats into this, especially after how the Democrat party has changed dramatically over the last 150 years. Nice try, I don't fall for that.

they called him a wait for it... CHRISTIAN. Only non-Christians use the label of "Christian" as a derogatory word, or as a sole reason to vote against a man. The rich southern slave owners were not Christian.

Yeah they where. Now you are dragging elitism out and claiming who is and isn't a Christian. RE-READ THE GOSPEL OF MATHEW CHAPTER ONE, MIGHT KNOCK YOU DOWN A PEG.

I'm sorry, this whole time I thought we were talking about America. Had I known we were talking about the middle east I'd have just let you jaw

No, I'm talking about America, where when we settled, we forced native to convert, and those that didn't where killed, enslaved. or ran off.

OK, that made me laugh. You need to go learn a thing or two about indentured servitude...

I know plenty about it. It was slavery with little to no chance of escaping. The only reason it stopped was because black enslavement was cheaper.

A tyrannical empire who killed people who did not have authorized versions of the Bible...

Just like how we killed natives that didn't share our beliefs and how other denominations killed each other because of conflicting beliefs.

civil war,

A war started by the Christians to end slavery and reunite the country...[/quote] The war was about state rights with slavery actually being a secondary reason. The south withdrew because they felt they where being forced by the Fed. Sounds kind of familiar. The south claimed they where the true Christians and wanted to get away from the sinful industrialized north.

It's interesting how the only people, today, who even like those new amendments are secular... It's also interesting that the amendments have always been proposed by secular people...

you mean the amendments that ended slavery, gave us workers rights, Meranda rights, right to an attorney, equality in voting, contracts, citizenship, ended the discrimination of women and creed, gave us the rights of free speech, assemble, religion, press, gather, bare arms, from militias, protection from warrentless searches, not to be a witness against ourselves, to own land, etc. Yeah none of those benefit Christians at all, right?

[quote:1rhturah]Wars with both Canada

Now I know you have no clue what you are talking about... We never have gone to war against the Canadians... Actually... we fought in Canada against the French and then later against the British, but we never once took the land, we gave it right back to them once we get rid of the people who kept attacking us... [/quote:1rhturah] War of 1812. Canada was an official territory. Guess what, we lost the war.

Technically that was a war between Texas and Mexico and at the time Texas was a separate nation...

Texas wasn't a separate nation, it was a colony, and our congress authorized the war. Why would a separate nation need our congress to start their war?

Talked about this twice now... you do like to say the same thing over and over and over, huh?


[quote:1rhturah]Seriously, you need to stop saying the same thing...

And you keep on acting like a condescending jerk.

[quote:1rhturah]and was done hudreds of years after the Vikings had already been here.

And before them this land was visited by the Phonecians http://phoenicia.org/america.html

They found Celtic runes in Arizona that predated both of these empires...

Why don't we add the Scottish who sailed here in the 13th century or so?[/quote:1rhturah][/quote:1rhturah]You just admitted that Christians weren't the first ones here?

 

[jasoncran]

the man john wintrop was agianst the treatment of indians as property of forced taking of thier land.

in case you dont know he was(first governor of the mass bay colony and of the mayflower compact)

 

[Pard]

Ah, yes, the ignore button.

I very much liked John Winthrop's journal. It was a very enlightening tale of communism and how badly it failed. Jason, did you know that the settlers from the Mayflower started their community as a communism? Winthrop decided that no one was doing the work they were assigned and he dissolved the previous system and allotted everyone an equal portion of land and said, "Go do your own thing." He was a very smart man. Actually, I forget where, but I recall reading that they converted a large amount of Indians and in fact it was rather common to see Indians attending mass right now to the Europeans.

EDIT

Lance, I feel I ought to make it more apparent, I am no longer going to continue this discourse. It is a waste of my time and I am going to presume yours as well. You will not listen to me, this is evident. Furthermore it is the second time you have completely misunderstood a posting of mine, and I am simply going to assume it is because you wish to not notice my true words.

Bug-bye now

 

[jasoncran]

Ah, yes, the ignore button.

I very much liked John Winthrop's journal. It was a very enlightening tale of communism and how badly it failed. Jason, did you know that the settlers from the Mayflower started their community as a communism? Winthrop decided that no one was doing the work they were assigned and he dissolved the previous system and allotted everyone an equal portion of land and said, "Go do your own thing." He was a very smart man. Actually, I forget where, but I recall reading that they converted a large amount of Indians and in fact it was rather common to see Indians attending mass right now to the Europeans.

of course, i learned that recently.

 

[Pard]

Ah, yes, the ignore button.

I very much liked John Winthrop's journal. It was a very enlightening tale of communism and how badly it failed. Jason, did you know that the settlers from the Mayflower started their community as a communism? Winthrop decided that no one was doing the work they were assigned and he dissolved the previous system and allotted everyone an equal portion of land and said, "Go do your own thing." He was a very smart man. Actually, I forget where, but I recall reading that they converted a large amount of Indians and in fact it was rather common to see Indians attending mass right now to the Europeans.

of course, i learned that recently.

Hey, they got this course, I forget the name at the moment, but it's really exceptional! It is a all day course on a Saturday. It costs like 35$ and you get a text book to go with it. They run you through our history from 1600s till 1786 or so. It's very eye-opening and in fact it was one of the things that brought me to God, because it showed me some of His many awesome miracles. I'll PM ya when I find the info.

 

[jasoncran]

when i was in grade school we spent some time on winthrop. he was fundematenal in alot of early colonial goverments.

 

[Pard]

when i was in grade school we spent some time on winthrop. he was fundematenal in alot of early colonial goverments.

:yes

Him and Thomas Hooker. I think Hooker came after Winthrop, but I cannot be sure... I do know Hooker was the first to start a colony with religious freedoms (Connecticut) and the first to draft a constitution (oldest constitution in the world... by the way ;) ) but I only remember that because we studied Connecticut History for a week in 3rd grade...

 

[jasoncran]

when i was in grade school we spent some time on winthrop. he was fundematenal in alot of early colonial goverments.

:yes

Him and Thomas Hooker. I think Hooker came after Winthrop, but I cannot be sure... I do know Hooker was the first to start a colony with religious freedoms (Connecticut) and the first to draft a constitution (oldest constitution in the world... by the way ;) ) but I only remember that because we studied Connecticut History for a week in 3rd grade...

i think the magna carta is a little older then hookers constitution, and yes ct was the first to do that.

sad aint that the bread basket of american culture is now heading toward communism or at least euro style socalism and the embracement of the most anti-christian things.

 

[Pard]

Ya, the magna carta is WAY older, but I think the CT one is technically the oldest because the MC, though the same since it started, went through a shifting government in the 1800s (when GB removed all power from the Crown) and so by technicality the CT constitution is the oldest... but this is stuff from 9 years ago, I could very well be mistaken.

 

[Lewis]

I know, I know people, but lets not let this get to far out of hand. Thank you all very much, that goes for me too.

 

[Nick]

Hi Vic!

Nick, this is a big slap in our faces here in the US and especially those of us who live the NYC area, like me.

I'm not denying that. All I'm saying is that to me and many others here we don't feel a personal connection like you guys do to the 9/11 attacks, and obviously we don't know the area. I am asure were this in my area I would feel the same about it that you do, but I just don't. However I plan on going to NY and ground zero someday.

Don't be fooled into think this somehow reflects upon the US first amendment. It does not. This is more than just religious posturing; this is political. If it's done, it will most likely be done because it's PC.

I'm not sure that this is some great political thing that Obama or others supporting the mosque have gotten themselves into, with over two thirds of New Yorkers opposed to the mosque. If they were so concerned with political moves and PC, then they would be going with the majority. However I agree that they are painting Islam as a peaceful religion, and it iwll bring peace and healing to the local community, which is not that true. As we would know with conversations with Gabe, Islam is defiantely not all peaceful and faries.

The Governor of New York offered the State's assistance to find a different location and his proposal was shot down.
...
Nick, sources says the groundbreaking for this mosque is scheduled for Sept. 11th.

Well this does put a different swing on it a bit for me. I did not know that the Governor had asked for ad different location, although he now seems to support the mosque from the news report last night.

I"m not denying this is more than a little suspicious, and that date doesn't exactly help the Muslim's case here.

Nick, the center of this issue is not one's personal connection to any 9-11 attack. But if you care to make personal connections the issue, I've got one: you are Christian and a citizen of a free country. What goes on in a country like the US does have effects that ripple throughout the free world.

Now, you've got a Muslim community and their sympathizers bent on building this mosque and having it's ground breaking on a very solemn day, not for just us, but the whole world.

So, you have a small minority wanting to circumvent the will of the people in the community, in a nation that is still majority professed Christians. We now know that that these sort of things can happen here in the US and if they can happen here, rest assured, these sort of things can happen everywhere, even in Australia.

I would say from what I have heard that there is a big part on this issue about perosnal connections to the 9/11 attacks. I would have thought most Americans would feel this. Of course this is peronsal, if it were not then we would be talking about the constitution, and you have already stated that it is not about that - so what exactly is it about?

True, I am a Christian and a citizen of a free country, be it not America. Of course I would prefer there not to be the spreading of Islam, but I respect peoples' right to believe what they want. We cannot force our beliefs on others, nor can we suppress others' beliefs.

For me, the location doesn't matter. I really could not care less if they built the mosque two blocks from ground zero or in the middle of Alaska. What does get me concerned is the day and the manner in which it is being built, and the lack of community consultmant.

Yes, it is being built on a solemn and sad day, and I am fully with you on this point. 9/11 was the end of the world's innocence that I have experienced - I was 9 years old, however I still remember that day and how it changed many things.

Some shocking decisions have been made in Australia,that's for sure. Unfortunately it seems these decisions which seem to deny democracy are being made more and more frequently.

I pray there doesn't come a day where you are forced to make such a stand, but if it ever comes down to it, will you?

I certainly hope it does not come down to this one day, but I am sure it will.
To help familiarise myself with this situation, I tried to think of examples that I would personally be more familiar with to answer your question. I can't think of any off the top of my head, but my answer would still be a yes.

 

[peter33]

i hate to say it but im all for the crusades happening again, only its not gonna be because of religion perse, but freedom's.

 

[jasoncran]

peter? we are to defend and fight evil but that is for the sovereign nation of isreal to deal with not us. and they did that and gave much of jerusalem back. and we christians arent called to fight the muslims in a holy jihad.

if the palenstinans want to live peacefully and nonviolently with isreal there , i say let them if they want to indeed.the sad question is will they?

 

[RobBarrie]

Unity ? you think that's what they want.... truly deep in their hearts ?

 

[walter]

We need to wake up. Who do you think is doing the beheading of the saints in the end times? If a muslim says to me he or she doesn't want to convert me under pain of death I will never believe it.

 

[LostSoul]

I cannot recall if I had responded to this thread, but believe I have responded to one similar to this under my old user name. My view remains the same.

This building of the masque is something that I do believe to be rather insensitive not only to a number of those who call themselves Christians, but thousands of Americans who were deeply effected by the aftermath of September 11th.

It has been no secret that a number, though I know not all Muslims may feel this way, that it is taught within the Quran to kill any who are infidels, or non-believing. It is this sort of hate that any of us who follow Christ must try to demonstrate true and unconditional love toward. For if we do not do it for them....who will we do it for. After all, we are taught to love our enemies. We can love them without allowing them to rob us of our own faith, right?