Talk to a JW: What defines "Christianity?"

[Mohrb]

We were in a large thread that had many different topics going, so this is my attempt to try to organize things.

The basic question: Are JWs Christian?

Mainstream Christianity defines "Christianity" by the belief that Jesus is God (specifically of a trinitarian nature).

JWs believe that "Christianity" is defined by "Following Christ's teachings." We agree that Jesus existed before his human incarnation, and is God's Son, but not God himself. (considering 1 Corinthians 8:6, John 17:3, John 14:28, John 5:19, Matthew 26:39, Luke 22:42, John 8:42. John 14:24, Matthew 24:36, 1 Timothy 1:2, 2 Timothy 1:2, Titus 1:4, John 17:20-23, etc).

I think an actual trinity debate is worth having in another thread, this thread should be discussing "What defines a Christian." And, is the "Christian church of Jehovah's Witnesses" ... "Christian?"

... as a JW, I believe we are.

Questions/comments/arguments for and against?

 

[Tina]

.


John 10:30
I and the Father are one.

Titus 2:13
while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ

Romans 9:5
Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.

Colossians 2:9
For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,

1 John 5:20
We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true—even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

2 Peter 1:1
To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours.



In all of the above Scriptures, the deity of Jesus Christ is equated with God.



:amen

 

[Mysteryman]

.


John 10:30
I and the Father are one.

Titus 2:13
while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ

Romans 9:5
Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.

Colossians 2:9
For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,

1 John 5:20
We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true—even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

2 Peter 1:1
To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours.



In all of the above Scriptures, the deity of Jesus Christ is equated with God.



:amen

Hi Tina

KJV of Colossians 2:9 - "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily"

Even though Jesus Christ has the deity of God. Which means power of authority. The greek word "theotes" meaning - deity , should not have been translated, deity. "Theos" means - God -- or -- godly. "Theopneustos" means -- given by inspiration of God. "Theosebeia" , means -- godliness.

So, in conclusion -- "Theotes" does not mean God. It means godly authority. The word "Godhead" is also a poor translation, in an of itself. It should be -- godly authority -- instead.

Just thought you should know - Bless.

 

[ProphetMark]

Mainstream Christianity defines "Christianity" by the belief that Jesus is God (specifically of a trinitarian nature).

Satan believes Jesus is God. I don't think you'll find many christians that think Satan is a christian.

 

[Cheyenne K]

More so than even that. As brought up previously, Satan believes in everything that is true. Does he follow God/Christ? No. Has he accepted Christ into his heart? No.

I personally believe what makes a person a Christian is to accept Jesus into their heart. One can follow Christ's teachings without being a Christian (ex; giving to the poor, staying faithful, not killing people, etc.) So I think a christian is someone who has accepted Christ into their heart and is led to acting on their faith by following the teachings of Christ and such.

 

[Mike]

hee hee hee. Well, Chris, I'm sure you had me in mind when you posted this thread. I would never want to disappoint someone willfully.

K, so... You know how much I think of you. And you know what my stance is.

I personally feel insulted when people who do not claim Christ as their Savior AND say that it was God Himself Who sacrificed Himself for my sins call themselves Christians. If someone suggests that Jesus was not equal to God the Father to atone for our sins, I would say this person is not a "Christian".

Chris, my understanding of the fullness of God's Grace is incomplete. I have no way to say where He will draw the line. Your name might be written in the Book of Life, but I know one way for you to KNOW you are saved... Accept the fullness of Jesus as your God, Lord and Savior...Who always was...Who always shall be! :amen

Mike

 

[Mysteryman]

hee hee hee. Well, Chris, I'm sure you had me in mind when you posted this thread. I would never want to disappoint someone willfully.

K, so... You know how much I think of you. And you know what my stance is.

I personally feel insulted when people who do not claim Christ as their Savior AND say that it was God Himself Who sacrificed Himself for my sins call themselves Christians. If someone suggests that Jesus was not equal to God the Father to atone for our sins, I would say this person is not a "Christian".

Chris, my understanding of the fullness of God's Grace is incomplete. I have no way to say where He will draw the line. Your name might be written in the Book of Life, but I know one way for you to KNOW you are saved... Accept the fullness of Jesus as your God, Lord and Savior...Who always was...Who always shall be! :amen

Mike

Hi Mike

Why do you feel insulted ? Is it your responsibility as an ambassador for Christ, to teach, or to feel insulted ? Are you to lead them to Christ, Mike ? Or make them feel like they just insulted you in some way ?

 

[Mike]

hee hee hee. Well, Chris, I'm sure you had me in mind when you posted this thread. I would never want to disappoint someone willfully.

K, so... You know how much I think of you. And you know what my stance is.

I personally feel insulted when people who do not claim Christ as their Savior AND say that it was God Himself Who sacrificed Himself for my sins call themselves Christians. If someone suggests that Jesus was not equal to God the Father to atone for our sins, I would say this person is not a "Christian".

Chris, my understanding of the fullness of God's Grace is incomplete. I have no way to say where He will draw the line. Your name might be written in the Book of Life, but I know one way for you to KNOW you are saved... Accept the fullness of Jesus as your God, Lord and Savior...Who always was...Who always shall be! :amen

Mike

Hi Mike

Why do you feel insulted ? Is it your responsibility as an ambassador for Christ, to teach, or to feel insulted ? Are you to lead them to Christ, Mike ? Or make them feel like they just insulted you in some way ?

I left my whole quote above, because I think it shows the way I try to deal with the balance of reaching out in love and defending the name Jesus. I have no way of controlling who calls themselves Christians. But, I like to know when someone says they are a Christian, that I have a bond with them in recognizing Jesus as our God. This gets into the Trinity. Some say you have to accept the Trinity to be a Christian. I stop short of that in saying you have to believe somehow in God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. How a person reconciles that with our limited knowledge is up to them and the Lord. The Trinity is a mystery, Mysteryman.

While saying what I said in the post above, Mohrb and I have been mutually amicable in the other long JW thread. A few times, I stepped over the line, but I think Chris will agree that I have quickly shown remorse and apologized for how I did. Then we fell back into a friendly discussion.

This isn't about you and me. You have a valid point, but I do believe I've read posts where you have been "combative" with others as well. We've had words, but we've shown the capability to recognize when we were out of line. I believe we have a fully understanding of each other now, as do Chris and I.

I like to use the analogy of a pool. Christianity is like a pool that I'm in. The water feels great, and it's very refreshing. I want to invite others into the "pool", so they can experience what I have come to experience in knowing Jesus in all His Fullness. Do I do this effectively every time? No. But I try.

Treat others with love while protecting the Name of our Savior.

Mike

 

[Adullam]

Christianity is defined by the power of a new life through the divine nature in Christ.

 

[Mysteryman]

hee hee hee. Well, Chris, I'm sure you had me in mind when you posted this thread. I would never want to disappoint someone willfully.

K, so... You know how much I think of you. And you know what my stance is.

I personally feel insulted when people who do not claim Christ as their Savior AND say that it was God Himself Who sacrificed Himself for my sins call themselves Christians. If someone suggests that Jesus was not equal to God the Father to atone for our sins, I would say this person is not a "Christian".

Chris, my understanding of the fullness of God's Grace is incomplete. I have no way to say where He will draw the line. Your name might be written in the Book of Life, but I know one way for you to KNOW you are saved... Accept the fullness of Jesus as your God, Lord and Savior...Who always was...Who always shall be! :amen

Mike

Hi Mike

Why do you feel insulted ? Is it your responsibility as an ambassador for Christ, to teach, or to feel insulted ? Are you to lead them to Christ, Mike ? Or make them feel like they just insulted you in some way ?

I left my whole quote above, because I think it shows the way I try to deal with the balance of reaching out in love and defending the name Jesus. I have no way of controlling who calls themselves Christians. But, I like to know when someone says they are a Christian, that I have a bond with them in recognizing Jesus as our God. This gets into the Trinity. Some say you have to accept the Trinity to be a Christian. I stop short of that in saying you have to believe somehow in God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. How a person reconciles that with our limited knowledge is up to them and the Lord. The Trinity is a mystery, Mysteryman.

While saying what I said in the post above, Mohrb and I have been mutually amicable in the other long JW thread. A few times, I stepped over the line, but I think Chris will agree that I have quickly shown remorse and apologized for how I did. Then we fell back into a friendly discussion.

This isn't about you and me. You have a valid point, but I do believe I've read posts where you have been "combative" with others as well. We've had words, but we've shown the capability to recognize when we were out of line. I believe we have a fully understanding of each other now, as do Chris and I.

I like to use the analogy of a pool. Christianity is like a pool that I'm in. The water feels great, and it's very refreshing. I want to invite others into the "pool", so they can experience what I have come to experience in knowing Jesus in all His Fullness. Do I do this effectively every time? No. But I try.

Treat others with love while protecting the Name of our Savior.

Mike

Hi Mike

Yes, the trinity is a mystery to me as well, and I am Mysteryman - :D

I just know, that any expression of anger or resentment, such as one who admitts being insulted. Is not either voicing their understanding very well. Or is down right ridged and cold hearted. Which I do not beleive from you. However, there are times in reading some of your posts. I tend to see a broken record that just repeats itself , over and over again, with no reguard to teaching, or inspiring. But putting down. Making the other feel like an outsider.

You most definetly will find in reading some of my posts, a stronger view point, depending upon the response from the other poster I am addressing. And especially if the other poster is gloom and doom, or someone who has a total lack and respect for the scriptures.

You will never see me not be able to defend my view without scripture as its source of reference. And even if someone disagrees with me, it does not bother me. As long as they stand upon scripture while doing so.

I will be friendly when the other poster is doing their best to be likewise respectful.

I feel that respect is earned. Not something automatically given. When we constantly show our emotions within our posts. Most will feel that you lack the ability to explain or defend what you are talking about. It seems easier to express a human emotion, instead of an ability to explain and express one's self.

I am never insulted by someone elses stand on their beliefs. I feel God has sent us not only to defend His Word, but also explain His word. What good is it if we only defend the Word , without the ability to explain His Word, so that others might learn thereby ? Remember that God has called us to peace.

Either they will be able to learn by your words of wisdom. Or they will shy away from you , because your lack words of wisdom.

Bless Mike

 

[Mike]

Okay, Mysteryman, point taken and accepted. :yes Since this thread isn't about the two of us, totopic

repeat: I believe that accepting the fullness of God the Son is necessary to be a Christian.

I think Mohrb is looking for more feedback.

Mike

 

[Mysteryman]

Okay, Mysteryman, point taken and accepted. :yes Since this thread isn't about the two of us, totopic

repeat: I believe that accepting the fullness of God the Son is necessary to be a Christian.

I think Mohrb is looking for more feedback.

Mike

Hi Mike

I believe that Christianity is based upon the Love of the one true God. This is why we are to whorship God in Spirit and in truth. God tells us to love God with all of our hearts,souls, minds and strength, and the second is liken unto the first, to love thy neighbor as thyself.

Sometimes we need to refresh our memories, in the fact, that we are to Love thy brother. Because how can we say we love God whom we have not seen, if we do not love our brother whom we do see. - I John 4:20 and 21.

I always encourage a stringent reading of I John chapter 5.

 

[Mike]

I believe that Christianity is based upon the Love of the one true God. This is why we are to whorship God in Spirit and in truth. God tells us to love God with all of our hearts,souls, minds and strength, and the second is liken unto the first, to love thy neighbor as thyself.

So are our Jewish friends Christians in your opinion? It's a rhetorical question, because I'm quite sure you would say, No. I realize these are the two greatest commandments Jesus said sums up the law. But, Jewish people follow what you've said above just as well as Christians. The definition of a Christian has to include some acknowledgment that differentiates us. Between Jesus and Christians, of course that would be Christ. I've heard many Jewish people with affection for Jesus as a great teacher, but not God. So in your statement of what defines a Christian, you don't believe a Christian needs to accept the Divinity of Christ?

I'm not trying to be argumentative. I hope you understand that. I feel strongly about this as you well know. If you don't, then I guess we'll disagree.

 

[Mysteryman]

I believe that Christianity is based upon the Love of the one true God. This is why we are to whorship God in Spirit and in truth. God tells us to love God with all of our hearts,souls, minds and strength, and the second is liken unto the first, to love thy neighbor as thyself.

So are our Jewish friends Christians in your opinion? It's a rhetorical question, because I'm quite sure you would say, No. I realize these are the two greatest commandments Jesus said sums up the law. But, Jewish people follow what you've said above just as well as Christians. The definition of a Christian has to include some acknowledgment that differentiates us. Between Jesus and Christians, of course that would be Christ. I've heard many Jewish people with affection for Jesus as a great teacher, but not God. So in your statement of what defines a Christian, you don't believe a Christian needs to accept the Divinity of Christ?

I'm not trying to be argumentative. I hope you understand that. I feel strongly about this as you well know. If you don't, then I guess we'll disagree.

Hi Mike

First, I'm glad you got your new nic. Yes, of course I know that you are not trying to be argumentive.

I understand that Jewish people were the first to become Christian. Which occured on the day of pentecost.. Even though, we see no record in Acts chapter 2 of them calling themselves a christian. But we do see in chapter 2 the word "church" and the receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues. Even King David prophesied of God raising up Christ to sit upon his throne. And this Jesus hath God raised up , and God set him on his right hand, and exhalted.

So there is no doubt that Christianity is based upon Christ. And I do believe in the deity of Christ. But many people believe in a false definition of what this means. Traditions of men, and teachings from over many years, have portions of the church reading the scriptures in such a way, that is corruptible. Like I said, in my previous post, that a stringent reading of I John chapter 5.

Why don't we start with verse one -- "Whosoever believeth that jesus is the Christ is born of God : and every one that loveth him that begat, loveth him also that is begotten of him" < I John 5:1 < Mike, what is your interpretation of this verse ?

Bless

 

[Free]

I believe that Christianity is based upon the Love of the one true God. This is why we are to whorship God in Spirit and in truth.

Which merely begs the question of who the one true God is. How can we all be worshiping God "in Spirit and in truth" if our beliefs of who God is are completely contradictory? It is easy to quote Scripture and say that we need to believe Jesus is the Christ and we need to love him and follow him, but who he is is intimately tied with belief in him; you cannot divorce one from the other.

Who Jesus is is absolutely central to Christianity.

 

[Mysteryman]

I believe that Christianity is based upon the Love of the one true God. This is why we are to whorship God in Spirit and in truth.

Which merely begs the question of who the one true God is. How can we all be worshiping God "in Spirit and in truth" if our beliefs of who God is are completely contradictory? It is easy to quote Scripture and say that we need to believe Jesus is the Christ and we need to love him and follow him, but who he is is intimately tied with belief in him; you cannot divorce one from the other.

Who Jesus is is absolutely central to Christianity.

Hi Free

Well, you ask some very important questions, no doubt. If we were to keep it simple. The one true God, is the God of Abraham, Isaac, King David, the God of (Jacob) Israel, the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Worshipping God in Spirit and in truth, means that we should be humble to the truth. We should be willing as a christian, to grow spiritually, which could include change in one's beliefs. Change should never occur, unless one is absolutely clear within their mind . This, in my understanding, takes God himself, to open up the eyes of our understanding. The more we are humble towards the truth, the more God will open up the eyes of our understanding.

I explained to another poster just recently, that the cup represents Christ's body and the poster came back and told me that the wine represents his blood. As much as I agree, that the blood does represent his blood. Nonethelesss, the cup represents his body. The cup represents the vessel which holds that which is the life of the vessel. Leviticus 17:11. Jesus shed his blood for us, which means that the vessel became empty. Just like the cup , which Jesus said : "the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you". The shed blood , means that the vessel (cup - body) is empty, which is the New testament, for the forgiveness of sins.

Will christianity always agree ? No, I do not believe that it will. However, that does not mean, that we do not have to change, in order that we now worship God in Spirit and in truth. We must change, if we are in error, in order to worship God in Spirit and in truth.

The first word in christianity is "Christ". Thou art the Christ is the Son of the living God - Matthew 16:16 and Jesus answered Peter and said in verse 17 - "Blessed art thou Simon Barjona : for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven" < Here, Peter was walking spiritually, becauase the Father revealed this unto him.

We all should pray, that God the Father open up the eyes of our understanding, that we may know him.

Bless

 

[Mohrb]

I personally feel insulted when people who do not claim Christ as their Savior AND say that it was God Himself Who sacrificed Himself for my sins call themselves Christians. If someone suggests that Jesus was not equal to God the Father to atone for our sins, I would say this person is not a "Christian".

Then, what about all the times Jesus deferred his glory to his God/Father? When he stated that he did -nothing- of his own will, but only followed the instructions of his Father, who sent him? When he told satan that there is only one deserving of worship: the Father?

People can point to a couple places where someone worshiped Jesus... but out of all the places where Jesus preached that his Father should be worshiped, when did he ever claim that he should be worshiped himself? John 17 (the same chapter where he directly calls his Father, the only true God) does show that Jesus was glorified, but only because he gave all glory to his Father.

Why can a person NOT be a Christian if we believe the simple message that Jesus preached... that there is for us only one God, the Father. And that God loved the world so much that he sent his only begotten Son to die for our sins? Why do we have to go against the bible by claiming that it was God himself that Jesus deserves all Glory, leaving none for the Father?

In essence, why MUST we ignore the Father completely in order to follow Jesus, if Jesus' whole ministry was preaching the will of the Father, who sent him?

 

[Mohrb]

I believe that Christianity is based upon the Love of the one true God. This is why we are to whorship God in Spirit and in truth.

Which merely begs the question of who the one true God is. How can we all be worshiping God "in Spirit and in truth" if our beliefs of who God is are completely contradictory? It is easy to quote Scripture and say that we need to believe Jesus is the Christ and we need to love him and follow him, but who he is is intimately tied with belief in him; you cannot divorce one from the other.

Who Jesus is is absolutely central to Christianity.

I think this is an important point.

I believe "the one True God" is the one Jesus told us was the one True God. I don't see why inference has to be added to the bible when Jesus' teachings were so simple and clear. Why do we HAVE to develop "divine mysteries" that cannot be comprehended, yet must be unquestionably accepted in order to be acknowledged as a Christian?

 

[Mike]

I personally feel insulted when people who do not claim Christ as their Savior AND say that it was God Himself Who sacrificed Himself for my sins call themselves Christians. If someone suggests that Jesus was not equal to God the Father to atone for our sins, I would say this person is not a "Christian".

Then, what about all the times Jesus deferred his glory to his God/Father? When he stated that he did -nothing- of his own will, but only followed the instructions of his Father, who sent him? When he told satan that there is only one deserving of worship: the Father?

People can point to a couple places where someone worshiped Jesus... but out of all the places where Jesus preached that his Father should be worshiped, when did he ever claim that he should be worshiped himself? John 17 (the same chapter where he directly calls his Father, the only true God) does show that Jesus was glorified, but only because he gave all glory to his Father.

Why can a person NOT be a Christian if we believe the simple message that Jesus preached... that there is for us only one God, the Father. And that God loved the world so much that he sent his only begotten Son to die for our sins? Why do we have to go against the bible by claiming that it was God himself that Jesus deserves all Glory, leaving none for the Father?

In essence, why MUST we ignore the Father completely in order to follow Jesus, if Jesus' whole ministry was preaching the will of the Father, who sent him?

Chris, with all due respect, you've now launched into doctrinal differences as opposed to "what defines a Christian". The fact that you took this opportunity to make an argument to "dethrone" Jesus, furthers my point that one needs to accept Jesus as God to be a Christian. In changing verbiage in the Bible, you eliminate many additional references to His divinity. Believing that the Bible doesn't support Jesus' divinity in the NWT is an error based on revision, not on Truth. By the way, who ignores the Father? I've focused on Jesus here, because this is the most important matter that divides JW's from Christianity IMO. But, Christians focus on the Father, in the name of the Son, by the power of the Holy Spirit. Three Gods in One. Some Christians grasp the concept of the Trinity differently, but all call Jesus God.

 

[Mohrb]

Still, this is all circular reasoning. You define Christianity by the trinity because all Christians believe in the Trinity because without believing in the trinity, you can't be a Christian because all Christians (by this definition of Christianity) believe in it. I.e. "You must because we do."

I'm not speaking from the NWT... even the NIV shows Jesus praying to his Father at John 17:3, saying "Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."

Jesus didn't say that eternal life was that we know Jesus to be one of three persons who are equally God... He taught that it was based on understanding that his Father is the only true God, and that he was sent by his Father.

Yes, there are a number of verses where the NWT disagrees with more mainstream translations. For example, the "firstborn of creation" where most translations read "firstborn OVER creation" ... You agreed that this was a significant change, and that one's been altered... yet, I showed that the proper translation of the word used is "of" or "from among" ... I asked for any grammatical justification for "over" indicating that he is excluded from creation... yet no one's given any beyond the fact that mainstream bibles translate it that way regardless of the word's actual definition.

All the translations I've ever read of 1 Corinthians 8:6 still say "yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we unto him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we through him."

This isn't a "NWT" thing... this is in every bible. I understand that trinitarians can interpret this to support that Jesus is God also... but why is it "unchristian" to read "to us there is one God, the Father" ... and believe that the Father alone is God, an individual being... and that his son is his son.

I understand that you have verses which you believe imply Jesus' divinity... but must people deny the faith of all monotheists?

Why is it unchristian to read Deuteronomy 4:39 in the ASV bible and see "Know therefore this day, and lay it to thy heart, that Jehovah he is God in heaven above and upon the earth beneath; there is none else." ... and believe it?

Or 2 Samuel 7:22 from the Young's literal translation: "Therefore Thou hast been great, Jehovah God, for there is none like Thee, and there is no God save Thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears."

... again, this isn't the place where I would suggest that the trinity isn't possible. But the idea of monotheism is far from a "NWT invention."

When the FIRST of the 10 commandments listed in Exodus 20:2-3 in Youngs Literal Translation says:

"I [am] Jehovah thy God, who hath brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of a house of servants. Thou hast no other Gods before Me."

Although I'm sure trinitarians have some explanation as to why a specific translation of certain verses may imply the opposite... why should people have their faiths insulted for simply following the simple interpretation of the above commandment? That Jehovah alone is God... and that no one else is God.