Not only is it Gospel, but it is THE GOSPEL. Okay, we're going around in circles now. If you are unable or unwilling to see that Christ the Saviour and that we are saved by His faith, and therefore, not by our own in any sense, then you are denying your own words, and therefore, I'm going no further with this discussion because it will be meaningless.
Tasted Death for every Man !
- Thread starter brightfame52
- Start date
-
Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
-
Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
-
Not only is it Gospel, but it is THE GOSPEL. Okay, we're going around in circles now. If you are unable or unwilling to see that Christ the Saviour and that we are saved by His faith, and therefore, not by our own in any sense, then you are denying your own words, and therefore, I'm going no further with this discussion because it will be meaningless.
No. Only those so ordained will be saved, so since not everyone is saved, then not everyone was ordained.
It says, "ordained to eternal life". If someone is ordained to it by God, then they must receive it. There is no way around that. This was evidenced by the fact that they believed but others didn't.
Last edited:
The love of Christ controls us Christians (2 Corinthians 5:14), but you disassociated yourself from Christ's loving control as per your writing in which you most certainly used illegal grammar, and, this post is the proof, and, unlike you, this post is for you and anyone else who is interested the Truth (John 14:6).
You repeat your "the context of 'John 6:28-29' is not a teaching that faith is a work" John 6:29 deception again because Lord Jesus Christ in absolutely certain terms declares that a Christian's faith/belief is exclusively the work of God (John 6:29) because the Word of God eliminates "the work of man" in respect to believing in Jesus when the King of Glory says:
This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent
(John 6:29)
Christians do not reject the sayings of Christ, and this Truth (John 14:6) includes John 6:29, yet your heart's treasure (Matthew 15:16-19) rejects Christ's sayings of which Christ says about Christ's sayings that "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day" (John 12:48).
You repeat another of your lies that "Lord Jesus is not teaching that God is giving a person faith" because Lord Jesus teaches that faith is the work of God (John 6:29), and the Word of God here "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29) is enough to stand as absolute Truth (John 14:6) without any other citations, yet the Word of God wonderfully says "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life" (John 6:47), BUT YOUR WRITINGS MAKE IT CLEAR THAT THE WORD OF GOD DOES NOT MATTER TO YOU.
When you wrote "By definition, it is impossible for "faith" to be a work" even further down in your post after John 6:29 was proclaimed to you, then, in that very moment, you executed against the word of God your "
Back to your illegal grammar in Ephesians 2:8-10.
Christ's words recorded in John 6:29 are not dependent upon Ephesians 2:8-10.
Paul's writing in Ephesians 2:8-10 is in accord with Christ's words recorded in John 6:29, so Paul's writing is dependent upon the Word of God.
Let's dig more comprehensively than you did at the Greek grammar of Ephesians 2:8, looking at the case/number/gender combinations of each of these five words which establish communication, so here they are:
- grace - noun - dative/feminine/singular
- saved - verb - nominative/masculine/plural
- faith - noun - genitive/feminine/singular
- that - demonstrative pronoun - nominative/neuter/singular
- gift - noun - nominative/neuter/singular
When taken as a linguistic whole, the Apostle Paul wrote that:
- ”grace” is the gift of God while not being a work of man
- ”saved” is the gift of God while not being a work of man
- ”faith” is the gift of God while not being a work of man
by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not as a result of works, so that no one may boast for we are His work
(Ephesians 2:8-10)
Your explanation omits critical parts of the grammatical construction of the Apostle Paul's linguistics, so your explanation uses illegal grammar; in other words, your exclusion of "faith" from "gift" uses illegal grammar, and your free-willian adulteration is clearly evident by comparing and contrasting your personal grammar to the above bullet list examining the actual grammar of the five words.
PAUL THE APOSTLE repeats his declaration in Ephesians 2:8 when in Ephesians 2:10 Paul wrote "we are His work", so we Christians are the work of God (see John 6:29) which includes our faith/belief - we are God's exclusively by God's grace for God's glory - PRAISE BE TO GOD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST!
Faith/Belief is the work of God (John 6:29) because the Word of God wonderfully declares the glory of God with "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29)!
You seemed to have neglected critical points regarding YOUR THOUGHTS, so here are the points in detail.
Just as the word "world" of 1 John 5:19 is not every person in all of time (YOU THINK this much), likewise the word "world" of 1 John 2:2 is not every person in all of time.
The Apostle John proclaims
My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous, and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
(1 John 2:1-2)
My precious and loving Advocate succeeds in every single one of His advocacies, so this Advocate's success in the propitiation of every single Christian's sins requires that the word "world" is limited exclusively to us current Christians and future Christians.
You think "the entire world has the opportunity to avail themselves of the Advocate" which by extension means that YOU THINK that Jesus the Advocate propitiated for the sins of persons who never believed in Jesus throughout their life, for example, some Muslim who never believed in Jesus, that Muslim who lived in the year 1502 in the middle of the Ottoman Empire.
That non-Christian Muslim unbeliever had his sins covered by Christ according to YOUR free-willian philosophical statement, but that Muslim died hell-bound, so the Advocate that YOU preach about is not the Advocate whom the Apostle John proclaims because YOUR Advocate attempts but fails to cover sin resulting in YOUR Advocate failing to give life, but the Advocate of John and I faithfully covers sin resulting in our Advocate giving Life (John 14:6) eternal to God's chosen persons (John 15:16).
The conclusion of YOUR "the whole world" meaning "every person everywhere in all time" in 1 John 2:2 is that Christ the Advocate is a failure according to YOUR THOUGHTS, and no Christian believes that Christ is a failure.
We Christians have the perfect Advocate!
Let us behold the audience of Lord Jesus Christ saying "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).
By the time Jesus bestows these blessings to all believers in all time, Judas Iscariot departed, so that leaves 11, not your "the twelve apostles", but truly the eleven,, so you are in confusion.
At the time Jesus bestows these blessings to all believers in all time, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias (Acts 1:21-23) were also present, not your "the twelve apostles", but truly a minimum of 13 persons is contextually established,, so you are in confusion.
At the time Jesus bestows these blessings to all believers in all time (see John 15:16-19), the Lord explained "If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you" (John 15:20) JUST ONE VERSE AFTER JOHN 15:19, so this word of Christ's is in context with the manner the world persecutes Christians as Christ's words recorded in Mark 13:1-37 including "What I say to you I say to all" (Mark 13:37) THUS CONTEXT EXISTS BETWEEN JOHN 15:16, JOHN 15:19, JOHN 15:20, AND MARK 13:37, so you are in confusion.
You do not keep Lord Jesus Christ!s words recorded in John 15:16-19 because you think that this Word of God is inapplicable to Christians today! Lord Jesus has something to say about people who do not keep Lord Jesus Christ's words "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words" (John 14:23-24).
Friend Of Jesus (John 15:15) Relation To Exclusive Choice By Jesus (John 15:16)
Lord Jesus immediately adjacently joins persons chosen by Jesus with selfsame persons being friends of Friend Jesus (John 15:15-16).
""I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. You did not choose Me but I chose you" (John 15:15-16) says Lord Jesus.
FREE-WILLIANS DISAVOW CHRIST'S WORDS OF "YOU DID NOT CHOOSE ME" (JOHN 15:16) FOR THEMSELVES WHILE AT THE SAME TIME DECLARING THE WORDS AS EXCLUSIVELY APPLICABLE TO THE APOSTLES; THEREFORE, FREE-WILLIANS DENY BEING A FRIEND OF JESUS WHICH JESUS COVERS IN THE SAME SAYINGS OF JESUS.
A friend of Jesus marvels at the glorious exclusive work of God's salvation of man; on the other hand, an enemy of Jesus steals the exclusive glory of man's salvation from God by saying things like "I chose Jesus" or "I accepted Jesus" resulting in the following implications to free-willian philosophy:
- the enemy of Jesus rejects Jesus * Who says Who He is, and Jesus declares Himself Sovereign, the exclusive Controller, in man's salvation.
- the enemy of Jesus does not receive the sayings of Jesus * for the enemy disavows Jesus' sayings about God's exclusive choosing of man (John 15:16, John 15:19 includes salvation).
- the enemy of Jesus thinks the enemy compels God to provide salvation; in other words, the enemy of Jesus thinks that God must obey man's command for salvation to enter the heart of man, also without a man's affirming decision (choosing of Jesus) there is no salvation for the man.
- the enemy of Jesus gets the glory, yet God does not give His glory to another (Isaiah 42:8).
* "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day" (John 12:48).
By the Power of God, for God's glory (Isaiah 42:8), the friend of Jesus bears good fruit/works because apart from Jesus a person can do nothing (John 15:5).
By the Power of God, by God's grace, for God's glory (Isaiah 42:8), the friend of Jesus is saved from the wrath of God because Jesus, Lord and God (John 20:28), says "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19).
We Christians believe the Christ exclusively chooses persons unto salvation:
- "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16), so God chooses people to be friends (John 15:15, the prior verse) and to believe (John 6:29) and to be born again (John 3:3-8) and for righteous works (John 3:21, John 15:5) and to repent (Matthew 11:25) and to love (John 13:34) and unto salvation (John 15:19 the same passage).
- "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation), so God exclusively chooses people unto salvation.
- "What I say to you I say to all" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 13:37 - Jesus had taken the Apostles Peter, Andrew, James, and John aside in private and said this), so all the blessings of God mentioned above are to all believers in all time.
We Christians hear Lord Jesus loud and clear "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation)! Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God Almighty! Praise the Father, praise the Son, praise the Spirit, One True Holy God!
JLB
That passage is speaking about the non elect reprobate so they will never believe,
However, the elect, like Paul, they shall be saved and then believe.
Not only that, even the elect cant believe until they are saved. So no one who is in a lost unregenerate condition, can ever believe, must be saved first. As long as one is in a lost condition, the Gospel is hid from them, and if they are non elect, its permanent.
So I took time to clarify, and I never said anything about the apostle paul as you stated.
That passage is speaking about the non elect reprobate so they will never believe,
However, the elect, like Paul, they shall be saved and then believe.
Not only that, even the elect cant believe until they are saved. So no one who is in a lost unregenerate condition, can ever believe, must be saved first. As long as one is in a lost condition, the Gospel is hid from them, and if they are non elect, its permanent.
So I took time to clarify, and I never said anything about the apostle paul as you stated.
Yeah He suffered and died, but that didnt do anything according to you but made salvation possible. The most important part is what made Salvation a reality, since Christs part only made it possible. You did the most important part that saved you from hell, not Christ, He made it merely poosible.
I am glad you got to use the verb "receive" it.
It shows some of our part in conversion.
All men are God's.
All men have the opportunity to love and obey God.
Some just don't do either.
The "ordination/offer" stands whether or not it is received.
As conversion/salvation is available to be received, though some refuse it, it must be available to everyone.
How do you determine who is not of this world ?
He can advocate perfectly, but those He advocates for may not profit from it if they go back into sinning again.
The Advocate is available to all men.
To profit from Jesus' advocacy however, a man must do the things mentioned in 1 John 1...confess and get washed by the blood of Christ.
The "covering" was there, but he didn't take it.
As Jesus' advocacy didn't exist before Jesus' death and resurrection, only those who accept it since its availability will find their names in the book of life on the last day.
Man's failure to accept it doesn't mean it wasn't available or could have been successful.
Thank God .
As you seem set on believing that God doesn't love everyone enough to make His advocacy available to all men, while I do, further conversation is fruitless.
Interesting how you say "merely".
Wasn't that enough to get you to turn from sin and get baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of your past sin ?
It was enough for me.
What else did it do besides make conversion, and hopefully salvation, available to all men ? (besides fulfilling OT prophesies, and providing the vessel for our rebirth)
Yeah He suffered and died, but that didnt do anything according to you but made salvation possible. The most important part is what made Salvation a reality, since Christs part only made it possible. You did the most important part that saved you from hell, not Christ, He made it merely possible.
So everyone agrees that the word “elect” is used referring to those who are saved, regenerate and believing.
However the word predestined, when used in the New Testament refers to those who have faith. One could see that without going farther and think, oh that must mean that God predestined some of those who aren’t believers to become believers. However, the places where it is used is referring to those who have already had faith in Jesus, and that God has predestined those who believe (which is an open category atm) to be saved.
Which would be like saying “those who get on the ark will be saved, those who don’t will not be”. And that simply makes sense, that’s why that parallel is drawn in the NT.
However the word predestined, when used in the New Testament refers to those who have faith. One could see that without going farther and think, oh that must mean that God predestined some of those who aren’t believers to become believers. However, the places where it is used is referring to those who have already had faith in Jesus, and that God has predestined those who believe (which is an open category atm) to be saved.
Which would be like saying “those who get on the ark will be saved, those who don’t will not be”. And that simply makes sense, that’s why that parallel is drawn in the NT.
“2 Corinthians 5:14” says that the love of Christ “compels us (The Apostles). In context, Paul was speaking about himself and the other Apostles.
However, every true believer in Christ is compelled by the Spirit to live a holy life onto righteousness and love as a follower of Lord Jesus.
But “compelling” is not “controlling,” because many Christians refuse to live by the Spirit, and so they:
Grieve (Ephesians 4:17-32; Isaiah 63:10);
Quench (1 Thessalonians 5:19);
Insult (Hebrews 10:24-31);
Reject (1 Thessalonians 4:1-8),
Lie to (Acts 5:3), and
Test (Acts 5:9), the Spirit of God indwelling the believer.
Therefore, the Spirit guides and compels the believer to do the right thing, to live a sanctified life of righteousness and love, but for that to happen the believer is responsible continue in his faith and so:
Drink (John 7:37-38),
Live (Galatians 5:24-25),
Walk (Romans 8:3-4; Galatians 5:25), and
Sow (Galatians 6:7-9)” to the Spirit without giving up.
Galatians 6:7-9 (WEB) [Writing to the Christians in Galatia] 7 Do not be deceived. God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption. But he who sows to the Spirit will {{{from the Spirit}}} reap eternal life. 9 Let {{{us}}} not be weary in doing good, for {{{we}}} will reap in due season, {{{if we}}} do not give up.
Romans 8:12-14 (ENIV) 12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, {{{we}}} have {{{an obligation}}} – but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit {{{you}}} put to death the misdeeds of the body, {{{you}}} will live. 14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.
The Spirit leads, but only as the believers continue in the faith, diligent to "drink," "live," "walk," and "sow" to the Spirit dwelling in the believers. The Spirit dwelling in believers will give them eternal life, but only as they continue to sow to the Spirit without giving up. That is the Promise and Guarantee of the Spirit. See the Passages again, quoted above.
My response stands. Faith, by definition, is never a work. That is reality. Faith is the opposite of works.
But you go ahead and believe that faith is a work. The entire New Testament disagrees with you, but you go and believe that anyway. My messages are for those who read these posts who seek the truth.
You are not following the grammar you listed.
- “Grace” is the direct object modifying the subject: “you are saved.”
- “Gift” is a {{{neuter}}} noun while “faith” is a {{{feminine}}} noun, so "gift" cannot refer back to "faith."
- “Gift” cannot refer back to “faith” because, for one, “faith” is not the subject of the sentence. “Gift” must refer back to a subject. There is only one subject in the entire sentence, which is: “By grace you are saved.”
- “Gift” can only refer back to a subject with the {{{same gender}}}, which is the verbal concept, “By grace you are saved.” This is the verbal concept, because that complete thought was brought forward from verse 5 for further discussion.
- “Gift” is neuter singular, and the "verbal concept" is neuter singular by default.
“Faith,” being “genitive,” {{{takes possession of}}} the ‘grace of salvation;’ therefore, faith is not part of the saving grace that it is taking possession of. “By faith” I gain access to God’s saving grace.
Romans 5:1-2 (Young’s Literal Translation) Having been declared righteous, then, by faith, we have peace toward God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have the access by the faith into this grace in which we have stood, and we boast on the hope of the glory of God.
John 3:16 (WEB) 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
{{{We}}} are His work. Paul is writing to "believers," including himself.
“Believers” are the work of God. The Passage does not state that “faith” is the work of God, but that WE, the believers, are the work of God. We are God’s workmanship, because we are believing in Lord Jesus.
Last edited:
So does Christs death in and of itself ensures, saves everyone He died for ? Yes or No please.
Of the Muslim of 1502AD about whom we corresponded lately, let's do a little exercise with 1 John 2:1-2.
Since you say that "the whole world" includes that Muslim, let's do a little word substitution in 1 John 2:1-2
My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if that Muslim sins, he has an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous, and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the Muslim.
Yet, according to your free-willian philosophy, that Muslim died Hell-bound because he did not believe in Jesus Christ, yet Christ advocated for the sins of that Muslim in order for him to saved, yet the Muslim man died Hell-bound without being saved, SO CHRIST'S ADVOCACY FAILED TO SAVE THAT MUSLIM ACCORDING TO YOUR THOUGHTS THAT "THE WHOLE WORLD" INCLUDES ALL PEOPLE EVERYWHERE IN ALL TIME.
Notice that 1 John 2:1-2 does not mention any exceptions to Christ's advocacy, yet your writing of "He can advocate perfectly, but those He advocates for may not profit from it if they go back into sinning again" fails to match the Apostle John's writing that "and if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father" (1 John 2:1-2) which means that your concept of "sinning again", which you just mentioned, thet "sinning" are sins explicitly advocated by Christ per 1 John 2:1-2; in other words, your writing fails to account for an unbelieving person being Hell-bound at death even though that person's sins were advocated by Christ per your interpretation of "the whole world" in 1 John 2:1-2.
In Truth (John 14:6), the Apostle John proclaims
My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous, and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
(1 John 2:1-2)
My precious and loving Advocate succeeds in every single one of His advocacies, so this Advocate's success in the propitiation of every single Christian's sins requires that "the whole world" is limited exclusively to us current Christians and future Christians.
Jesus, the Son of God, made it possible for us to do our part.
Paul writes..."Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." (Phil 2:12)
Before Jesus died and rose again, men had only the Law's measures for living Godly lives.
Nobody could be successful at it.
That has changed.
Now we can all live Godly lives !
Okay.
The Moslem is the "any man" of 1 John 2:1.
He can turn to God for the remission of past sins.
Correct, unless he appealed to the Advocate, he is a goner.
Of course the Moslem's life will change 100% when he drops the "Moslem" from his title.
Unless that Moslem does as all real Christians did/do, that being repent of sin and get baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, it will reveal that he didn't apply/ appeal for the advocacy available to him.
If a man doesn't ask for advocacy, he won't get advocacy.
The Moslem is the "any man".
Had he appealed for advocacy, he would have received it.
Jesus's advocacies will always succeed.
But if the advocacies are not asked for, or the person is still committing sin afterwards, the advocacy was for naught.
"God heareth not sinnners", (John 9:31), so a real repentance from sin is crucial for the success of any advocacy.