Tasted Death for every Man !

[GodsGrace]

Hi Wondering,

I bolded two parts of your post above. You said they believe He's a special Son. Then you said We say He is begotten which means special. How is that not the same thing?

Can you show me where Scripture says that one must believe that Jesus is part of a Trinity which is one God consisting of three persons? I'm pretty familiar with Scripture and I don't remember seeing anything like that. From what I see the primary thing that needed to be believed, according to Jesus and the apostles, what that Jesus was the Christ.

We really should start a different thread for this. A discussion of the Trinity will surely get this tread derailed and shut down.

There's a thread on the Trinity going on right now with a member that we believe to be a JW.
It's here:

An Open Debate on the Trinity with JLB​

• Thread starter theMadJW
• Start date Yesterday at 3:42 AM
• TagsNone

It's in the THEOLOGY Forum.

As to the word special...I'm sorry I used the same word...didn't mean to cause confusion.
The JW say we're all sons of God, but Jesus is a SPECIAL son.

I was trying to get to the meaning of BEGOTTEN but it's not easy to do.
Jesus was not CREATED...He was begotten...a PART of God Father.

 

[Butch5]

God is Almighty God.
The creator of the universe.
Zeus is a god.

OK, but in the original Greek all letters are capital. There was no God and god. It was God and God. Capitalizing the word God in English just means it refers to a person.

 

[daninthelionsden]

I didnt say anything about the Deity of Christ. You said that what JW said was outside of Chrisitianity and was another religion because it wasn't orthodox. I simply pointed out that much of what is taught today was not orthodox in the beginning. Orthodox just means the majority believes something. Thus, something being orthodox doesn't make it correct. His doctrine isn't another religion simply because it's not orthodox. If you disagree with his position lay out your argument and show where his position is wrong. Simply dismissing it because it's not the majority opinion is fallacious.

When I say orthodox, I am referring to the belief in Christ as God and not the tertiary teachings/beliefs/doctrines that denominations differ on. Without getting it right on Christ, the rest means little to nothing.

 

[Butch5]

There's a thread on the Trinity going on right now with a member that we believe to be a JW.
It's here:

An Open Debate on the Trinity with JLB​

• Thread starter theMadJW
• Start date Yesterday at 3:42 AM
• TagsNone

It's in the THEOLOGY Forum.

As to the word special...I'm sorry I used the same word...didn't mean to cause confusion.
The JW say we're all sons of God, but Jesus is a SPECIAL son.

I was trying to get to the meaning of BEGOTTEN but it's not easy to do.
Jesus was not CREATED...He was begotten...a PART of God Father.

Yes, I saw that thread. However, begotten also causes problems for the Trinity doctrine. Again, we should do this in another thread.

 

[Butch5]

When I say orthodox, I am referring to the belief in Christ as God and not the tertiary teachings/beliefs/doctrines that denominations differ on. Without getting it right on Christ, the rest means little to nothing.

But orthodox just means the majority believes the same thing. That doesn't mean what they believe is correct. As far as I've found in Scripture the requirement is to believe that Jesus is the Christ. I don't recall the requirements being about the Deity of Christ. I know many Christians today make that a sticking point, but, I don't see where Scripture does. We should take this to a new thread though.

 

[GodsGrace]

OK, but in the original Greek all letters are capital. There was no God and god. It was God and God. Capitalizing the word God in English just means it refers to a person.

Even your car could be your god.
It just means something that you worship that is NOT God. It could even be a false god...(like Zeus).
Only God is to be worshipped.

 

[daninthelionsden]

But orthodox just means the majority believes the same thing. That doesn't mean what they believe is correct. As far as I've found in Scripture the requirement is to believe that Jesus is the Christ. I don't recall the requirements being about the Deity of Christ. I know many Christians today make that a sticking point, but, I don't see where Scripture does. We should take this to a new thread though.

Agreed. We can follow over to the discussion debate of the Trinity.

 

[GodsGrace]

But orthodox just means the majority believes the same thing. That doesn't mean what they believe is correct. As far as I've found in Scripture the requirement is to believe that Jesus is the Christ. I don't recall the requirements being about the Deity of Christ. I know many Christians today make that a sticking point, but, I don't see where Scripture does. We should take this to a new thread though.

You bring up good points Butch5.
I know that just because a majority believes something, it does not make it right.
But in Christianity it does. I like to refer to some odd ideas as not being mainline Christianity.
Most theologians agree as to what a Christian is...most agree what doctrines are correct.
Every denomination might have a different idea on a doctrine, but all Christian denominations must believe what I listed previously.
If a person does not believe this, he cannot consider himself to be a Christian. He might be saved and love God more than any of us here, but he cannot call himself a Christian.

Here's the problem:
Jesus is the Christ just means that Jesus is the Messiah...the annointed one of God.
The One sent to be a messenger for God,,,in person,,,to give to everyone a clear message of what God expects from us.

Is this what Jesus was?
Was He a prophet sent by God with God's annointing and blessings?

If so, He was a crazy prophet because He thought He was God.
He went to the cross thinking God could send 1,000 angels if He just would have wanted Him to.
He resurrected, proving that He was more than a prophet, but was God incarnate.

The N.T. teaches that Jesus is God....come to earth as a human.

John 1:14
14and the Word became flesh....

1 John 1:1-2
1What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life—
2and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us—

1 Timothy 3:16
16By common confession, great is the mystery of godliness:
He who was revealed in the flesh,

Luke 1:35
35The angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.

and many more....

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, I saw that thread. However, begotten also causes problems for the Trinity doctrine. Again, we should do this in another thread.

Go to the Trinity thread.
Post something to me and I'll reply there....

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, I saw that thread. However, begotten also causes problems for the Trinity doctrine. Again, we should do this in another thread.

Wait.
Another thread about what??

 

[GodsGrace]

Catholic Church

Since we have different sources between us which we consider spiritual authorities, it would be very difficult if not impossible, to come to agreement. As I recall, the Catholic Church has multiple sources of divine revelation/authority. Most other Christian religions just one: the Bible. So, any discussion we might engage in would probably turn into a "he said, she, said" type of thing.




"Persons" didn't "put together the Bible", God wrote it. Were it a work of man, we would all be in a lot of trouble indeed,
Which person am I "trusting my soul to?" No person, just God through the Holy Spirit -- they are all that's necessary.


lol -- good one.


Actually, I've never read any book written by Calvin, nor attended any church that features his teaching. If you were to ask me what his doctrines are I don't think I would be able to answer with any precision.
However, it is possible that we have both come to the same conclusions on things spiritual because we both read the same Bible and we have learned the same spiritual lessons from it (they're pretty obvious biblically speaking).
If I've quoted Calvin (which I haven't) then it was 100% coincidental -- trust me on that.
I do not need Calvin's or anyone else's instruction for that matter - the Bible is abundantly
clear in-and-of itself, and thankfully, I am able to fathom most of what it teaches on my own.
How do you think I was able to supply all of the verses I did along with explanations, had I first needed to
consult with Calvin's writings ? I've come to understand the Bible messages on my own along with the verses that support it.
If I said otherwise, I'd be lying.



Really? Which one's are "odd"? I ALWAYS supply supporting verses with conclusions and rational for any
point I try to make. And anyway, what make "mainline Christianity", the final arbiter of what is right and correct ?




These ?

[Eph 2:7-10 KJV]
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in [his] kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

I could be wrong, but I don't think I used Eph 2:8 to justify that we are saved by Christ's faith (though we are). What I think I would have said was only that the "gift of God", is God. Please cut and paste my comment.
Wait - are you saying 2:8 confirms we're saved by our faith? I don't think so. Please see Gal 2:16:

[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

But verse Eph 2:10 is pretty interesting in that regard, don't you think?

"BUT BY THE FAITH Of JESUS CHRIST, EVEN WE HAVE BELIEVED IN JESUS CHRIST" -- Christ's faith, not ours
That is, Christ gave His faith to the true believes.

How would you interpret Gal 2:16?

Hi Roger,,,
I have only one source of authority...the bible.

As I said,,,I'm interested in this idea that we are saved by Christ's faith.
I used Ephesians 2:8 to show that we are saved by our own faith.

You brought up Galatians 2:16
Here it is in two different versions:

Galatians 2:16 KJV
16Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.


Galatians 2:16 NASB
16nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified

It's plain to see that the wording does lead one to believe in a different soteriological method. (a different way to achieve salvation).
How can we know which one is right in your opinion?

 

[rogerg]

As I said,,,I'm interested in this idea that we are saved by Christ's faith.
I used Ephesians 2:8 to show that we are saved by our own faith.

t's plain to see that the wording does lead one to believe in a different soteriological method. (a different way to achieve salvation).
How can we know which one is right in your opinion?

Hi wondering,
I'm not quite sure what you mean when you say "a different way to achieve salvation"? Salvation can only be achieved one way through/by Christ.
To me there is absolutely no question about it: Christ must impart His faith to those He chooses to salvation at some point during the salvation process - probably when born again. However, I think a true believer's faith continues to grow throughout their entire life.
We can know we are saved by Christ's faith because He is the Savior. Were it by our faith, or by anything that we might do (initiated through our actions or work), then we would have saved ourselves. Here are some verses that I hope illustrates that (there is a lot more to say about this doctrine, and I am not sure the ones I provided are the best so I'll
find others and post them if I do). Any questions, please let me know

[Rom 4:9 KJV] 9 [Cometh] this blessedness then upon the circumcision [only], or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

[Rom 4:22-24 KJV]
22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

In Romans 4:9, we can see that faith itself was reckoned to Abraham.4:22, 4:23, 4:23 continues the explanation of the doctrine raised in 4:9
These verses show two things: 1) that faith was given (reckoned) to Abraham for the purpose (God's purpose) of deeming him righteous. We know that the righteousness of Christ is the only one of significance in God's eyes, and therefore the only one that imparts righteousness, and 2) that God used Abraham in his role as father of all true believers to demonstrate to mankind how righteousness is imputed by God.

[Gal 3:8-9 KJV]
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, [saying], In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

In Gal 3:8 - 3:9 we can see that God's plan is the "heathen" (the Elect, throughout time) would be justified by the same faith that was imparted to Abraham and he was justified by.

We can also see the the role of Christ in our receiving of true faith:

[Heb 12:2 KJV] 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

We can see in Heb 12:2 that Christ alone is the "author and finisher of (our) faith:"

[Rev 19:11 KJV]
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war
.
In Rev 10:11, we can see that one of the names of Christ (God) is Faithful and True.

 

[rogerg]

Galatians 2:16 KJV
16Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

It also just occurred to me that if we read this verse closely enough, we can deduce that it also lumps any self-generated faith as being from law, and as such, can not justify us. That is, if our faith isn't from Christ, then it is from law - it can't be from both.
Hope that makes sense.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi wondering,
I'm not quite sure what you mean when you say "a different way to achieve salvation"? Salvation can only be achieved one way through/by Christ.

What I mean by a different way to achieve salvation is this:
You believe we are saved through Christ's faith.
I believe we are saved through having faith in Christ (this is the "orthodox" method).

Salvation is achieved through belief in Christ and following His teachings,
but it is OUR faith that saves us. If I've understood you correctly, you believe it's Jesus' faith that saves us.
Jesus doesn't need faith - He's God.
Just as we will no longer need faith in heaven. Faith and hope will no longer be needed,,,but only love will remain.
1 Corinthians 13:13 NOW we have faith, hope and love...in heaven love will remain.

To me there is absolutely no question about it: Christ must impart His faith to those He chooses to salvation at some point during the salvation process - probably when born again. However, I think a true believer's faith continues to grow throughout their entire life.

In my last post, I showed you two different versions for Galatians 2:16
The KJV does make it sound like it's the faith of Jesus that saves...
The NASB, and other versions, make it sound like it is our faith in Him that saves.

In fact, it is our faith in Him that saves us....the KJV version for Gal 2:16 is very different in wording than what Christianity believes saves us.

Luke 7:50 Jesus said:
50And He said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”

Romans 11:20
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;

John 3:15
15...so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. (whoever has faith in Him)

Acts 10:43
43....through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”


We are saved through our faith...and through our belief.
THROUGH Jesus....

We can know we are saved by Christ's faith because He is the Savior. Were it by our faith, or by anything that we might do (initiated through our actions or work), then we would have saved ourselves. Here are some verses that I hope illustrates that (there is a lot more to say about this doctrine, and I am not sure the ones I provided are the best so I'll
find others and post them if I do). Any questions, please let me know

What do you mean by Jesus having faith?
Are you aware that Jesus does not need faith?
He needs faith only in God to do what He was born to do....die for us.
God does not require faith in God....

[Rom 4:9 KJV] 9 [Cometh] this blessedness then upon the circumcision [only], or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

[Rom 4:22-24 KJV]
22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

Please read all of Romans 4.....

Romans 4:9 --- your verse:
9Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, “FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.”

All this is saying is that Abraham was saved by faith and not by works.

Romans chapter 4 is regarding salvation in the OT being of faith and not by works.
Abraham was uncircumcized when he was made righteous by faith....thus it was not by works.
Romans 4:11
11And he received circumcision as a sign, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them.


Romans 4:22-24
22Therefore IT WAS ALSO CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.
23Now not for his sake only was it written that it was credited to him,
24but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited, as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead,

This states that we will be credited as righteous (justified) if we believe in Him who raised Jesus from the dead. (God)

The verses you have posted say nothing about our salvation is by the faith of Christ...
but by our own salvation...by our believing.

In Romans 4:9, we can see that faith itself was reckoned to Abraham.4:22, 4:23, 4:23 continues the explanation of the doctrine raised in 4:9
These verses show two things: 1) that faith was given (reckoned) to Abraham for the purpose (God's purpose) of deeming him righteous. We know that the righteousness of Christ is the only one of significance in God's eyes, and therefore the only one that imparts righteousness, and 2) that God used Abraham in his role as father of all true believers to demonstrate to mankind how righteousness is imputed by God.

I'm sorry Roger, the above is not what your posted verses state.

They state that:
1. We are saved by faith and not by works.
2. Abraham was saved by his faith even before he was circumcised (a work).
3. We are also to be declared righteous by God if we're to be saved. This is done through justification.
4. We are imputed with Christ's righteousness by our belief, or faith, in Him.
We are imputed with His righteousness...not His faith.

2 Corinthians 5:21
21He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

[Gal 3:8-9 KJV]
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, [saying], In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

Agreed.

In Gal 3:8 - 3:9 we can see that God's plan is the "heathen" (the Elect, throughout time) would be justified by the same faith that was imparted to Abraham and he was justified by.

Agreed.
We are saved by the same faith that Abraham had.

We can also see the the role of Christ in our receiving of true faith:

[Heb 12:2 KJV] 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

We can see in Heb 12:2 that Christ alone is the "author and finisher of (our) faith:"

Jesus is the author of our faith...It is through HIS sacrifice that we find ourselves in the Kingdom of God.
He is our leader and we His disciples.
I'm afraid you read things into the verses that are not there....

Hebrews 12:1 says that we need to run the race set before us.
Jesus leads us in that race.

[Rev 19:11 KJV]
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war
.
In Rev 10:11, we can see that one of the names of Christ (God) is Faithful and True.

Agreed. Jesus is faithful to the Father and finished what He was sent here to do for our benefit.
We, instead, are saved by our own faith IN JESUS.

 

[GodsGrace]

It also just occurred to me that if we read this verse closely enough, we can deduce that it also lumps any self-generated faith as being from law, and as such, can not justify us. That is, if our faith isn't from Christ, then it is from law - it can't be from both.
Hope that makes sense.

Faith is not a law.
Faith, grace and salvation are free gifts that God gives to those that desire them in order to be saved.
Ephesians 2:8
8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

 

[rogerg]

What I mean by a different way to achieve salvation is this:
You believe we are saved through Christ's faith.
I believe we are saved through having faith in Christ (this is the "orthodox" method).

I understand your beliefs but respectfully, I must disagree

[Rom 3:22 KJV]
22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
[Gal 2:20 KJV]
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
[Gal 3:22 KJV]
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

[Phl 3:9 KJV]
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

If we believe we are made righteous (and therefore saved) by a self-initiated faith in any form, whether achieved explicitly or implicitly, then it is a faith of law not of grace. Only the faith of Christ which is imputed freely to those whom He has chosen to salvation, is NOT a faith from law( no labor or effort possible on the receiver's part).
We agree that the believer receives/has faith in Christ, but as Gal 2:16 tells us, that "BY THE FAITH of JESUS CHRIST EVEN WE HAVE BELIEVED IN CHRIST. So, it comes because of Christ' faith. His faith/faithfulness is imputed to the true believer.

[Jhn 6:28-29 KJV]
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Faith is a law. A man is justified by faith (Christ's faith) outside of the deeds of the law.

Faith is not a law.
Faith, grace and salvation are free gifts that God gives to those that desire them in order to be saved.

Faith is a law. A man is justified by faith (Christ's faith) outside of the deeds of the law.

[Rom 3:27-28 KJV]
27 Where [is] boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. (without: outside of)

[2Co 4:4 KJV]
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

It is impossible for natural man to even desire the "free gifts" or to have self initiated faith, because their minds have been blinded by Satan. Of themselves, they will never desire a faith in Christ. Their understanding has been completely reversed from truth. In their minds, that that which is spiritually good is perceived as evil, and that which is spiritually evil is perceived as good. For their mind to become unblinded, God must first renew them, and renewing occurs only to those whom He has chosen to salvation. The others remain as-is. So, a faith that is in one's own choice, is a faith in oneself, not in Christ.

esus is the author of our faith...It is through HIS sacrifice that we find ourselves in the Kingdom of God.
He is our leader and we His disciples.
I'm afraid you read things into the verses that are not there....

I don't understand your reply at all. Please clarify.

I'm sorry Roger, the above is not what your posted verses state.

They state that:
1. We are saved by faith and not by works.
2. Abraham was saved by his faith even before he was circumcised (a work).
3. We are also to be declared righteous by God if we're to be saved. This is done through justification.
4. We are imputed with Christ's righteousness by our belief, or faith, in Him.
We are imputed with His righteousness...not His faith.

Disagree. That is exactly what they state. Please look again:

[Rom 4:9 KJV] 9 [Cometh] this blessedness then upon the circumcision [only], or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

Faith was reckoned to Abraham. According to your post, you believe that he reckoned his faith back to himself?
I'm confused - don't understand your point?

No our belief, if spiritually correct, was imputed to us because of Christ's righteousness, not the reverse.
Please see 2 Co 4:4 above

That's all for now

 

[JLB]

If we believe we are made righteous (and therefore saved) by a self-initiated faith in any form, whether achieved explicitly or implicitly, then it is a faith of law not of grace.

First of all, no one has claimed we are saved by a “self initiated faith”. There is no such thing as a “self initiated” faith.
Faith comes from God.

Faith comes to us when we hear God speak to us, whether directly or indirectly. If you don’t believe or understand this, I will provide scripture for both.



Secondly, faith is definitely governed by a law. The law of faith.


Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. Romans 3:27


The entire book of Romans is contextually framed by this principle of faith. It’s called the obedience of faith.


Faith must be completed and therefore activated by the corresponding action of faith.


But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
Romans 16:26


We find this principle through the Bible. I will be glad to give you some examples if you like.


So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:17




JLB

 

[rogerg]

First of all, no one has claimed we are saved by a “self initiated faith”. There is no such thing as a “self initiated” faith.
Faith comes from God.

Faith comes to us when we hear God speak to us, whether directly or indirectly. If you don’t believe or understand this, I will provide scripture for both.

I understand faith, but I think where we differ is with the word "hear" .
To "hear" as it pertains to faith, is not physical hearing but spiritual hearing. To hear spiritually, God must first give a renewed mind. This is because Satan has blinded the minds of mankind making it impossible to hear spiritually.

I believe the proposition proffered in a prior post, was that somehow it is our responsibility to have faith - to choose Christ -- in order to become saved, and therefore, self-initiated (my phrase). I believe that if we have true faith, it is a result of having first become saved and not the cause of becoming saved.

Faith comes to us when we hear God speak to us, whether directly or indirectly. If you don’t believe or understand this, I will provide scripture for both.

Sorry, not entirely sure what you mean. Please see above re: to hear
I think the following verse sums it up precisely:

[Gal 2:16 KJV]
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
[Eph 2:10 KJV]
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Because of Christ's faith true believers, believe. Our faith is an after effect, our faith is a good work the believer has been created unto.

Faith must be completed and therefore activated by the corresponding action of faith.

Wait -- the way I read what you've said is that to complete faith we have to have faith? If we have to have faith, to be able to complete faith, why does it need to be completed since we already have it? And what else remains?
I realize that growing in faith (or should I say growing in understanding), is an ongoing process for those saved throughout their lifetimes; however, it is not the cause of one's salvation: faith, and the growth thereof, does not save.
Look, should anything be needed outside of what Christ did, and we have to contribute it (if that's what you're saying), then (and as I've said before) Christ isn't the Savior, we are. Please see Gal 2:16 above

ut now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

Not sure what your point is here?

We find this principle through the Bible. I will be glad to give you some examples if you like.


So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:17

Yes, please.

 

[JLB]

I understand faith, but I think where we differ is with the word "hear" .
To "hear" as it pertains to faith, is not physical hearing but spiritual hearing.

Agreed.

To hear spiritually, God must first give a renewed mind.

Please post chapter and verse for this.


I agree God give us grace, to enable us to obey the Gospel.

From that point He gives us the power to become sons of God; to obey Him.


Renewing the mind is a process that involves our obedience in which we spend time studying His word as well as spending time alone with Him in prayer; praying in the Spirit, and private devotion whereby we dwell in His presence waiting in stillness.

Waiting in the secret place.
Worshipping Him and being still before Him.


This is where we offer our bodies as a living sacrifice, fasting and seeking Him. Spending time in His presence.





JLB

 

[rogerg]

Romans 4:9 --- your verse:
9Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, “FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.”

All this is saying is that Abraham was saved by faith and not by works.

I believe the verse is saying that Abraham's faith was given (imputed) to him, and was not of his doing. It was Christ's faith that was given him. Christ's faith is the only righteous faith.

If Jesus completed all tasks the Father assigned Him to accomplish (as you just said, and with which I am in total agreement), then there cannot be anything left for us to do, to include our faith:
Here is the Father's will that Jesus should accomplish. Please observe:

[Jhn 6:39 KJV]
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.


[Eph 2:4-6 KJV]
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:

In reading those verses I didn't find any mention of a task we must accomplish to effectuate our salvation, do you? Seems to me that God did/does it all for us.

Jesus is the author of our faith...It is through HIS sacrifice that we find ourselves in the Kingdom of God.
He is our leader and we His disciples.
I'm afraid you read things into the verses that are not there....

What things?