Tasted Death for every Man !

[rogerg]

Please post chapter and verse for this.

[2Co 4:4 KJV]
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
[Jhn 12:39-40 KJV]
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
[Mat 13:14, 16 KJV]
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: ...
16 But blessed [are] your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

Renewing the mind is a process that involves our obedience in which we spend time studying His word as well as spending time alone with Him in prayer; praying in the Spirit, and private devotion whereby we dwell in His presence waiting in stillness.

Don't think so -- I think it is given by the Holy Ghost.
[Tit 3:5 KJV] 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

agree God give us grace, to enable us to obey the Gospel.

From that point He gives us the power to become sons of God; to obey Him.

Depends what you mean by "enable us to obey the Gospel"? Do you mean to become saved?
Is it a sin to not believe the Gospel?

 

[GodsGrace]

I believe the verse is saying that Abraham's faith was given (imputed) to him, and was not of his doing. It was Christ's faith that was given him. Christ's faith is the only righteous faith.

Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness....
Abraham's faith was credited to him as being right with God.
Romans 4:3
3For what does the Scripture say? “ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.”
4Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

The above says that Abraham believed God (had faith in Him) and it was credited to him as being right with God.
It clearly states that to the one that does not work (follow the 613 laws) but believes in Him who justifies (God justifies) HIS FAITH is credited to Him as righteousness.

It does not say that Jesus' faith is responsible for our righteousness.

This is quoting Genesis 15:6:
6"Then he (Abraham) believed in the Lord (had faith) and He (God) reckoned (credited) it to him (Abraham) as righteousness."

WHERE does it mention anything about Jesus' faith??
By faith Abraham left Ur...and Haran...he obeyed God.
By HIS faith Abraham left Ur...

If Jesus completed all tasks the Father assigned Him to accomplish (as you just said, and with which I am in total agreement), then there cannot be anything left for us to do, to include our faith:
Here is the Father's will that Jesus should accomplish. Please observe:

[Jhn 6:39 KJV]
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

I am explaining your verses to you... however, you do not explain mine.
John 6:39 is your next verse. Let's read a little further down...

John 6:36 Jesus said:
36"But I said to you, that you have seen Me, AND YET DO NOT BELIEVE.

It is BELIEF that saves you...YOUR belief....YOUR faith.

John 6:38-40
38“For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
39“This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
40“For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

Where does it state above that we are saved by Jesus' faith?
It only states that:
1. Jesus has come here to do the Father's will.
2. The will of God is that all who go to Jesus will not become lost...but will be raised up on the last day.
3. The will of God is that EVERYONE WHO BELIEVES INT HE SON will have eternal life.

We are saved by OUR BELIEF.
By OUR FAITH.

[Eph 2:4-6 KJV]
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:

In reading those verses I didn't find any mention of a task we must accomplish to effectuate our salvation, do you? Seems to me that God did/does it all for us.

Jesus did His part for you.
He certainly did.
Did Jesus leave YOU any instructions in the N.T.?

Is this an instruction? Is the following something we must DO?
Mark 7:9-13
9He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition.
10“For Moses said, ‘HONOR YOUR FATHER AND YOUR MOTHER’; and, ‘HE WHO SPEAKS EVIL OF FATHER OR MOTHER, IS TO BE PUT TO DEATH’;
11but you say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),’
12you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother;
13thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”

The above teaches that Jesus was upset with those that did not honor their mother and father.
Is that not something we do?

And, yes, we were saved while we were still in sin..and it is God's grace that saves us.

What things?

What things must we do?
Could we start with the 10 commandments?
Would you say that Jesus' Two Great Commandments leave us with much to do?

Please answer this as I've posted many such verses....
The blind man wanted his sight.
Jesus told him to go his way...
"YOUR FAITH HAS MADE YOU WELL".

Jesus told Bartimaeus that his faith made him well...
NOT Jesus' faith.
Mark 10:52
52And Jesus said to him, “Go; your faith has made you well.”
Immediately he regained his sight and began following Him on the road.

 

[Fastfredy0]

I believe the verse is saying that Abraham's faith was given (imputed) to him, and was not of his doing. It was Christ's faith that was given him.

I've never heard of Christ's faith being 'imputed' to a person. I've heard of the imputation of Adam's sin, he imputation of Christ's righteousness and the imputation of our sin to Christ, but never of Christ's faith being 'imputed' to a person.
Can you quote any theologian that states Christ's faith is imputed?

If Christ's faith is 'imputed' to a person then what must a 'saved' person believe if anything to be saved? I suppose a 1282 North American Indian could be 'saved' having never heard of Christ but he is 'saved' because he had Christ's faith imputed to him. I suppose anyone could be saved ... they just go to heaven and say "why am I here" and the answer is "Christ's faith was imputed to you".

I believe God causes one to believe (faith) the salvific gospel, the effect of this faith is salvation.

 

[rogerg]

Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness....
Abraham's faith was credited to him as being right with God.
Romans 4:3
3For what does the Scripture say? “ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.”
4Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

Hmmm. For your interpretation to be correct, wouldn't the verse have to say "righteousness was accounted to Abraham for his faith"? I think what was imputed to him was Christ's faith. Righteousness can only be accounted to someone from/by the faith of Jesus Christ -- there is no other true righteousness. Your point was that Abraham gave faith to himself, and from that faith, God gave him righteousness... but, as we see in 3:22, the righteousness of God must be by Christ. Outside of Christ's faith, there is no righteousness.

[Rom 3:22 KJV]
22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

[Phl 3:9 KJV]
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

[Jhn 6:29 KJV]
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

If Abraham's faith (which, according to you, he gave himself) equals righteousness , then the only righteousness he could have acquired was from the law ( there is a law of faith). True righteousness is attained solely "through the faith of Christ". It either has to be from Christ, or from the law - one or the other - there is no third option,

It does not say that Jesus' faith is responsible for our righteousness.

Please see Phl 3:9

WHERE does it mention anything about Jesus' faith??
By faith Abraham left Ur...and Haran...he obeyed God.
By HIS faith Abraham left Ur...

Wait - so you're saying Abraham made himself righteous? Our conclusions must always be tested against the scrutiny of the Bible.
Remember the rule :
[2Pe 1:20 KJV] 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

John 6:38-40
38“For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
39“This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
40“For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

Where does it state above that we are saved by Jesus' faith?
It only states that:
1. Jesus has come here to do the Father's will.
2. The will of God is that all who go to Jesus will not become lost...but will be raised up on the last day.
3. The will of God is that EVERYONE WHO BELIEVES INT HE SON will have eternal life.

We are saved by OUR BELIEF.
By OUR FAITH.

Think I already answered the "where does it state" question (above).
Your point 1: agreed
Your point 2: possibly agree, depending upon what you mean by "go to Jesus".
If you look closely at 6:39, you can see it says "all that the He has GIVEN me I lose nothing". Notice that Christ included no pre-conditions in His statement as to whom the Father had given Him, for example, they had first to believe - only that the Father would unconditionally give some to Him. If those given were dependent upon their own actions, then Christ could not have said what He said, because it would have been their efforts, not God's that caused them to be given - God would not have had a part in it. Also, please notice that they were ALREADY given to Christ. No actions on their part could have affected the result. All people who have/will ever receive salvation have ALREADY been chosen by God.
6:40 states that those who are of the "He has given" group, are those who will have eternal life.
It seems to me that whenever you read a verse that has the word belief or faith in it, you automatically impose your interpretation that the faith in view is self-generated, but please, before you do so, recall Rom 3:22, Phl 3:9, and Gal 2:16. It could be Christ's faith, or the faith Christ has given them, depending.
On your point 3, I don't at all dispute what you've said -- that those who TRULY believe already have eternal life - no
doubt about that. Where we disagree is in how that belief is/was instituted within them? You say it's their responsibility. I say it's a gift from God.

Jesus did His part for you.
He certainly did.
Did Jesus leave YOU any instructions in the N.T.?

Is this an instruction? Is the following something we must DO?
Mark 7:9-13
9He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition.
10“For Moses said, ‘HONOR YOUR FATHER AND YOUR MOTHER’; and, ‘HE WHO SPEAKS EVIL OF FATHER OR MOTHER, IS TO BE PUT TO DEATH’;
11but you say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),’
12you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother;
13thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”

The above teaches that Jesus was upset with those that did not honor their mother and father.
Is that not something we do?

And, yes, we were saved while we were still in sin..and it is God's grace that saves us.

For those who are truly saved, are no longer are they under law (if I understand your point correctly). For them, law no longer holds power -- they have been freed from it since they already have eternal life.

If God's grace saves us, then what else could possibly be left for us to do to acquire salvation ?

What things must we do?
Could we start with the 10 commandments?
Would you say that Jesus' Two Great Commandments leave us with much to do?

Please answer this as I've posted many such verses....
The blind man wanted his sight.
Jesus told him to go his way...
"YOUR FAITH HAS MADE YOU WELL".

Jesus told Bartimaeus that his faith made him well...
NOT Jesus' faith.
Mark 10:52
52And Jesus said to him, “Go; your faith has made you well.”
Immediately he regained his sight and began following Him on the road.

Wait - do you believe we are saved by following law?
Following a standard of behavior in this world is one thing, leveraging it to justify ourselves before God quite another. From God's perspective, at the highest level, there are but two laws:

[Rom 8:1-3 KJV]
1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

God's mercy and grace alone place us under the first, our works for salvation under the second

 

[rogerg]

Can you quote any theologian that states Christ's faith is imputed?

This work?

[Phl 3:9 KJV]
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

If Christ's faith is 'imputed' to a person then what must a 'saved' person believe if anything to be saved? I suppose a 1282 North American Indian could be 'saved' having never heard of Christ but he is 'saved' because he had Christ's faith imputed to him. I suppose anyone could be saved ... they just go to heaven and say "why am I here" and the answer is "Christ's faith was imputed to you".

I believe God causes one to believe (faith) the salvific gospel, the effect of this faith is salvation.

There is only be one thing necessary for salvation and that is that God specifically has chosen a person for such. This is true for each and every person who has, or who is to be, saved.
As I understand it , a true faith/belief in Christ comes to someone as the result of, or the byproduct of, becoming born-again, but is not the cause of salvation.
I believe all those whom God choses to salvation-- whose names have been written into the Lamb's book of life from the foundation of the world -- will, at one point (or more,) have the Gospel preached to them before death, and they will respond appropriately to it. I believe God has made this commitment.

I believe God causes one to believe (faith) the salvific gospel, the effect of this faith is salvation.

Sorry, I'm not sure I understand you completely but I would probably state it in the reverse.
As you have it, my question is what happens (if anything) between believing and salvation?
Are they simultaneous? Or, does its recipient have to do something to complete the process?
If one thing unquestionably leads to, and/or follows the other, then they are effectively the same thing
aren't they, or am I missing something?

 

[Fastfredy0]

My question: Can you quote any theologian that states Christ's faith is imputed to us?

Your answer:

This work?

[Phl 3:9 KJV]
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Phil. 3:9 speaks of righteousness of Christ being imputed as an effect of one's faith. I asked for any theologian that states Christ's faith is imputed to us?

Gal. 2:16 ... hmmm, well this is interesting .. the KJV does say "but by the faith of Jesus Christ"
Well, you have a point there. But other versions say we are justified "through faith in Jesus Christ".

• Gal. 2:16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified. NASB
• Gal. 2:16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified. ESV
• Gal. 2:16 know that no one is justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ. And we have believed in Christ Jesus so that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no human being will be justified. HCSB
• Gal. 2:16 yet we know that a man is not [e]justified [and placed in right standing with God] by works of the Law, but [only] through faith in [God’s beloved Son,] Christ Jesus. And even we [as Jews] have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the Law. By observing the Law no one will ever be justified [declared free of the guilt of sin and its penalty].

Again I ask for any theologian who interprets Scripture to say we are saved by the imputation of Christ's faith.
Aside: The KJV sucks IMO relatively speaking (though it is pretty language)

There is only be one thing necessary for salvation and that is that God specifically has chosen a person for such.

Only ONE THING NECESSARY? Christ need not die on the cross? You are saying one does not have to have faith or the 'faith of Christ' as you put it?
Aside: I think you meant to say "being chosen is necessary for salvation" rather than "being chosen is the ONLY THING necessary for salvation".

As I understand it , a true faith/belief in Christ comes to someone as the result of, or the byproduct of, becoming born-again,

Agreed. But are you talking about the 'imputed faith of Christ' being granted a person (which is what your previous post suggests .... or does the person believe salvificly (have faith) as a consequence of regeneration (born again) as I have suggested. This is the crux of the discussion ... a person's faith saves him or the imputed faith of Christ saves a person.

I believe all those whom God choses to salvation-- whose names have been written into the Lamb's book of life from the foundation of the world -- will, at one point (or more,) have the Gospel preached to them before death, and they will respond appropriately to it. I believe God has made this commitment.

Agreed. Our point of disagreement is what constitutes one's faith. You say it is "Christ's faith imputed to us that saves us" ... I say it is our faith (though I grant God caused us to believe).
Aside: Maybe this is a semantics issue...

As you have it, my question is what happens (if anything) between believing and salvation?
Are they simultaneous? Or, does its recipient have to do something to complete the process?
If one thing unquestionably leads to, and/or follows the other, then they are effectively the same thing
aren't they, or am I missing something?

Gee ... now we are getting into the deep end of the pool ...lol

God is eternal ... He has no succession of moments ... so from God's stand point we have been and always are and will be saved. Time is not a constraint upon God. He always is... I AM.

From man's standpoint .... we tend to look at salvation as occurring at a point in time (like a person answering an alter call). So the order of salvation is:
Election-->Call-->Regeneration-->Conversion(Faith+Repentance) --> Justification --> Sanctification --> Glorification
Aside: it is more complex than that but keep it simple (i.e. Superlapsarism, etc.)
So, in 'eternity past' you were selected, then "X" years ago you heard the gospel, some time later (could be almost immediately or maybe years) the Spirit regenerated you, at the same time you were regenerated you were converted (faith + repentance) and justified. I say the same time chronologically... but logically is goes 'regeneration causes faith+repentance and faith cause justification'

Anyways ...way more than what I wanted to get into ... all I am saying is IMO Christ's faith is not imputed to us ... it is our faith and the cause of our faith is God (those that believe in dualism believe faith comes from themselves and the cause of that is some undefined power in the ether)

 

[rogerg]

My question: Can you quote any theologian that states Christ's faith is imputed to us?

Can't sleep so I thought I'd reply to a few of your points, more later

Not trying to be evasive but the only theologians I read or put confidence in are those in the Bible alone. Other than that, none. I try to let the Bible stand on its own.

Gal. 2:16 ... hmmm, well this is interesting .. the KJV does say "but by the faith of Jesus Christ"
Well, you have a point there. But other versions say we are justified "through faith in Jesus Christ".

Actually I think the phrase "faith in Christ" is used two ways in the Bible: 1) to designate a faith common to the
body of Christ - Christ as the object of the true believer's faith and, 2) to designate the faith and faithfulness that resides within Christ Himself -- a perspective akin to the "faith of Christ".

Aside: I think you meant to say "being chosen is necessary for salvation" rather than "being chosen is the ONLY THING necessary for salvation".

Yeah, sorry, I thought it was obvious that Christ's offering was a prerequisite for anyone becoming saved and outside of the scope of point we were discussing . My answer was intended as a response to your question of "If Christ's faith is 'imputed' to a person then what must a 'saved' person believe if anything to be saved? ". I was trying to explain/emphasize that there is nothing a saved person must believe to be saved. There are however, certain doctrine that a saved person must come to believe over time but those beliefs not being the cause of their salvation.

Agreed. But are you talking about the 'imputed faith of Christ' being granted a person (which is what your previous post suggests .... or does the person believe salvificly (have faith) as a consequence of regeneration (born again) as I have suggested. This is the crux of the discussion ... a person's faith saves him or the imputed faith of Christ saves a person.

Sorry, I'm sure your point is clear but I'm missing it right now. Perhaps my confusion is with how we each perceive being born-again and what it consists of? When you say "a person's faith", what exactly do you mean by faith? What is its nature and from whence does it come? If it derives from someone's mind and thought processes in-and-of themselves, then on that basis there would be no guarantee as to whether it was spiritually valid and consistent across all true believers. However, if that faith and understanding were imparted to them via the Holy Spirit, then we would be assured the result is spiritually correct and consistent:

[Jhn 16:13 KJV]
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

[Eph 4:23-24 KJV]
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Agreed. Our point of disagreement is what constitutes one's faith. You say it is "Christ's faith imputed to us that saves us" ... I say it is our faith (though I grant God caused us to believe).
Aside: Maybe this is a semantics issue...

I don't think my point was that Christ's faith imputed to us is what saves us. I believe it is a by-product, or a result,
of becoming born-again, which is a result of becoming saved. If I implied otherwise,, I was imprecise with my answer and I apologize.
I believe the salvation transaction (so to speak), was exclusively between God the Father and Jesus Christ (with no intervention possible in any form from any of its recipients). For God the Father to have deemed that transaction successfully completed and closed, Christ had to have been perfectly faithful in all of the aspects the Father sent Him to achieve. That Christ was perfectly faithful to it, and did achieve it, is what saves us - not our faith.

Anyways ...way more than what I wanted to get into ... all I am saying is IMO Christ's faith is not imputed to us ... it is our faith and the cause of our faith is God (those that believe in dualism believe faith comes from themselves and the cause of that is some undefined power in the ether)

If His faith isn't imputed to us for a common faith, then I don't think the following statements would not be possible:

[Tit 1:4 KJV] 4 To Titus, [mine] own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, [and] peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.

[Jde 1:3 KJV] 3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort [you] that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

Got further than I thought I would - believe I replied to all. Hope it's intelligible

 

[Fastfredy0]

Not trying to be evasive but the only theologians I read or put confidence in are those in the Bible alone. Other than that, none. I try to let the Bible stand on its own.

fair enough ... I just bring up the idea that, IMO, no theologian agrees with you and therefore maybe you may not be correct. But, if you don't listen to anyone else, then that is 'fair enough'.

Actually I think the phrase "faith in Christ" is used two ways in the Bible: 1) to designate a faith common to the
body of Christ - Christ as the object of the true believer's faith and, 2) to designate the faith and faithfulness that resides within Christ Himself -- a perspective akin to the "faith of Christ".

I heard of the 'faithfulness' of Christ but not the 'faith of Christ'. "Faith" is hope in things unseen so I don't know of anything UNSEEN by God. But, maybe faith is defined differently than I propose.

There are however, certain doctrine that a saved person must come to believe over time but those beliefs not being the cause of their salvation.

Agreed

When you say "a person's faith", what exactly do you mean by faith?

Faith is made up of knowledge, accent and trust. The contents of knowledge is debatable but let just say it includes Christ is God, Christ dies and was resurrected. You accent to this knowledge and trust it to be true where trust is demonstrated by obedience. The degree of obedience also being debatable. Faith cometh by hearing the gospel AND God causing you to believe (faith) the gospel as part of the point in your life when you are born-again (regenerated).

If it derives from someone's mind and thought processes in-and-of themselves, then on that basis there would be no guarantee as to whether it was spiritually valid and consistent across all true believers.

I am not saying FAITH is caused by the individual; that would be dualism. It is an effect of regeneration and hearing the gospel. The 'guarantee' is from God's perspective, we can never be 100.0% sure though there is evidence for our assurance.

However, if that faith and understanding were imparted to them via the Holy Spirit,

Agreed. The Spirit uses Scripture to 'impart' information needed for salvation (faith cometh by hearing) ... then the Spirit causes us to believe the information (gospel) that causes one to be saved.

I don't think my point was that Christ's faith imputed to us is what saves us.

I don't think you mean that either ... but that is what you stated IMO and that is why I responded.
In Post #716 you state:

• "Only the faith of Christ which is imputed freely to those whom He has chosen to salvation"
• "His faith/faithfulness is imputed to the true believer."

Seems we simply have a misunderstanding of what was meant. :yes Thus is the CRUX of my responses.

Got further than I thought I would - believe I replied to all. Hope it's intelligible

I think were done. Woohoo ..
Have a good day

 

[brightfame52]

Those Christ tasted death for in Heb 2:9
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

His taste of death for them was a suretyship death Heb 7:22

22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

Which means He tasted death in their place, in their stead !

So it was for all them collectively or as a whole, as in the whole Body His Church whom He gave Himself for, every member thereof Eph 5:25

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

Heb 2:12

Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.

 

[brightfame52]

In the verse Heb 2:9

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.:

“‘For every man’. This rendering is quite misleading. ‘Anthropos’, the Greek word for ‘man’ is not in the verse at all. Thus, one of the principal texts relied upon by Arminians in their unscriptural contention for a general atonement vanishes into thin air. The Revised Version places the word ‘man’ in italics to show that it is not found in the original. The Greek is ‘panta’ and signifies ‘every one’, that is, every one of those who form the subjects of the whole passage—every one of the ‘heirs of salvation’ (Heb. 1:14), every one of the ‘sons’ (Heb. 2:10), every one of the ‘brethren’ (Heb. 2:11)…Theologically it is demanded by the ‘tasted death for every one’, i.e., substitutionally, in the room of, that they might not. Hence, every one for whom He tasted death shall themselves never do so.”.” Obviously, those who do end up in Hell are the ones whom Christ did not taste death for. He did not die for all, He did not become a curse for all, He was not the Substitute for all.

For God So Loved...WHO? 21 | godsonlygospel

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[brightfame52]

The tasting of death here in Heb 2:9 results in bringing to Glory those He tasted death or suffered for Heb 2:10

10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.Cp 1 Pet 3:18

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

If a soul isn't brought to God as a result of Christs tasting death or suffering for them, tis not a soul Christ tasted death for, impossible, lest we strip Christs death of its saving efficacy !

 

[Serving Zion]

The writer of Hebrews wrote Heb 2:9

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Now honestly, did the writer write here that Christ tasted death for all mankind without exception here ? Nope he did not. In the original man isnt in the verse:

τὸν δὲ βραχύ τι παρ᾽ ἀγγέλους ἠλαττωμένον βλέπομεν Ἰησοῦν διὰ τὸ πάθημα τοῦ θανάτου δόξῃ καὶ τιμῇ ἐστεφανωμένον ὅπως χάριτι θεοῦ ὑπὲρ παντὸς γεύσηται θανάτου

Man was added by the translators. The word pas can refer to all the whole, the sum total of all the group intended. Context is important n determining the group that the writer has in mind. Lets look at the very next verse 10

10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Bingo, its the many sons that e suffered and died for, or tasted death for, The word many polys:

many, much, large, many, numerous, great

He tasted death for many Sons, a great number of them, everyone of them. This is important,, because later in the same epistle the writer uses the adjective many again to denote who He tasted death for Heb 9:28

So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

See to taste death back in Heb 2:9 is the exact same thing as " to bear the sins of many;" again, the many Sons of vs 10, everyone of the sons is who He tasted death for, not all of mankind without exception.

See Isa 53:11

He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

Are you trying to refute the doctrine of "universal salvation"? That's what it looks like to me. It looks like you have read a translation of Hebrews 2:9 and noticed that the words "tasted death for all men" suggests that all men will be saved. Correct me if I have misunderstood that, but I think that the doctrine of Universal Salvation is very flimsy and miniscule because it is refuted by huge swathes of scripture showing that only very few go the Way that leads to life.

 

[brightfame52]

Are you trying to refute the doctrine of "universal salvation"? That's what it looks like to me. It looks like you have read a translation of Hebrews 2:9 and noticed that the words "tasted death for all men" suggests that all men will be saved. Correct me if I have misunderstood that, but I think that the doctrine of Universal Salvation is very flimsy and miniscule because it is refuted by huge swathes of scripture showing that only very few go the Way that leads to life.

Did you read the post points ?

 

[Serving Zion]

Did you read the post points ?

Do you mean the points you made in the first post? Yes, that is why I asked. I don't understand what the purpose of the thread is. Are you trying to refute the doctrine of Universal Salvation?

 

[brightfame52]

Do you mean the points you made in the first post? Yes, that is why I asked. I don't understand what the purpose of the thread is. Are you trying to refute the doctrine of Universal Salvation?

The points of the post you quoted of mine.

 

[Serving Zion]

The points of the post you quoted of mine.

I don't understand this question. Could you have a go at answering my question to you? Maybe it will be clearer then.

 

[Serving Zion]

The points of the post you quoted of mine.

That is the first post. I said yes, I have read those points.

 

[brightfame52]

That is the first post. I said yes, I have read those points.

okay, did you understand them ? What are they ?

 

[Fastfredy0]

Are you trying to refute the doctrine of Universal Salvation?

I will help you out. I am 99% sure brightfame52 doesn't believe in universalism based on his previous posts.

 

[jaybo]

Are you trying to refute the doctrine of "universal salvation"? That's what it looks like to me. It looks like you have read a translation of Hebrews 2:9 and noticed that the words "tasted death for all men" suggests that all men will be saved. Correct me if I have misunderstood that, but I think that the doctrine of Universal Salvation is very flimsy and miniscule because it is refuted by huge swathes of scripture showing that only very few go the Way that leads to life.

The words "tasted death for all men" couldn't be clearer. There was a penalty for sins committed and Jesus paid the price for that penalty. Therefore, "all men' -- meaning all people -- have had the penalty for their sins paid for. The missing factor is that each person has to accept that Jesus' death paid the penalty for their own sin. If they refuse to accept His sacrifice on their behalf then they are still required to pay the price: death and eternal separation from God.