Respectfully, you don't understand estimates.
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Tasted Death for every Man !
- Thread starter brightfame52
- Start date
It is relevant. You simply ignore provable facts that contradict your belief that God God died for everyone or ... explain why Christ's dying for all mankind is not a useless, empty gesture unless there is an opportunity for them to be saved?
Like I can offer everyone of the forum $10,000 if any knocks on my door in the next minute. But that is a useless, empty gesture. It's taking credit for NOTHING.
Analogy:
A ship sinks. There are 1,000 men in the water with no flotation devises. A ship is on the way but will take 12 hours to get there. None of the 1,000 can swim for the 12 hours it would take the 2nd ship to arrive.
Jonah comes by with 1,000 life jackets. He gives life jackets to 100 men; the others he ignores, they never even knew Jonah existed. 30 men are saved, 970 are lost.
Your conclusion:
Jonah tried to save everyone (1000 people).
My conclusion:
Jonah gave 100 people a chance to be saved.
Everyone of themselves will refuse it until and unless they become born again. Actually, we become saved in-spire of
ourselves.
Becoming born again is not something that we can invoke, it is a gift from God through the Holy Spirit.
If Jesus's "gift is for all men" as you say, then all men MUST be saved, otherwise, His gift would have to be
considered a failure. But we know that His gift was entirely successful, and yet, not everyone is saved. This can only mean that it wasn't intended for all.
If Jesus is the Savior as the Bible tells us that He is, then He alone must be the one who saves, with nothing contributed by any of us whatsoever, to include whether or not we "refuse" it, or, the title Savior would not be appropriate. Otherwise then what would that title mean? Please observe:
[Eph 1:3-5
KJV] 3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Those are just a few verses, but I can provide additional if you'd like
If you don't mind me injecting my 2 cents, I'd like to add that faith is a work:
[Jhn 6:28-29 KJV]
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
So I believe those verses tells us several things:
1 That to have faith in Christ is a work
2) That It is God's work that someone comes to a faith in Christ which is given solely as a gift
3) That we cannot by any of our works be saved, as Christ alone is the Savior, not ourselves -- and to have true faith
in Christ is to have been saved
4) That if we were to truly believe we've been saved by faith in Christ generated in-and-of ourselves through our
own volition, then we remain under the curse of the Law and are not under grace. If there is only one thing needed
for salvation and we do it, then we have in effect saved ourselves
5) That our faith is a by-product of becoming born again
6) That our faith comes from Christ's faith
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Agreed.
Work is defined as a mental or physical activity to accomplish a purpose (see dictionary)
This is interesting and potentially frightening depending on what the application of the truth is. Gal 5:2
I would guesstimate that 99% of people when they are initially born again believe as the Arminian, that that decision to believe salvificly was of their volition. (It was what I thought). Then with study many come to believe the decision was caused by God, not themselves. So, based on these point the question is: was such a person saved when he first thought or when he was educated and decided God was the cause and not that the cause was the person as originally thought.
Sprout thought Arminian's are saved because deep down they done believe the logical outcomes of their theology in this area. He acted as if he wasn't 100% sure.
VERY INTERESTING.
" the question is: was such a person saved when he first thought or when he was educated and decided God was the cause and not that the cause was the person as originally thought."
If I've understood your point correctly, my belief is that Jesus saves us, not our faith nor knowledge (although there are verses that seem to imply that). I believe our faith, if a true faith, is a by-product of being born-again, which is a by-product of becoming saved, which is a by-product of God having written the names of all those (and only those) who are to become saved into the Lamb's Book of the Living, at the successful conclusion of Christ's offering on the cross. We are promised a renewing of the mind, without which, true spiritual knowledge and understanding cannot be had. Those who become saved grow in faith and knowledge throughout their lifetimes until death, after becoming born again - a continuum, not a binary off/on .
Regarding the "This is interesting and potentially frightening" part - I believe this is actually a good thing for those who experience that fear. It is a device God often uses to motivate and direct those whom He has saved into greater spiritual knowledge, wisdom and consequently, faith. Unless saved, those kinds of concerns will not be germane nor surface in the minds of the unsaved.
Hope this makes sense - if you disagree of it's unclear or if I've misunderstood your point, please let me know - thanks
Agreed on all points. I might quibble that knowledge is a necessary component of salvation, but Christ is needed to cause one to believe that knowledge. In other words, you have to have something to believe in order to believe it. Hmmm, well technically, Christ would ordain a person to tell you about Him. In short, I agree with you that you are saved by Christ alone. (probably semantics
)My question by way of example is: Person "A" makes a confession of faith and believes the CAUSE of his salvific belief is himself (not God) as in natural IMO. Ten years later he learns that the CAUSE of his belief is God and person "A" believes that to be true. Under your proposal, person "A" was not saved until he believed the CAUSE of his faith was God. Is that what you are proposing? If that is what you are proposing, then part of ones evangelizing another must include this information IMO.
Aside: R.C. Sproul and myself could be substituted for person "A".
I don't believe God forces men to be saved.
I didn't refuse it, I accepted it, and then repented of sin, was baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins while at the same time "was raised with Christ to walk in newness of life". (Rom 6:4)
Not necessarily.
Some men hate God, preferring to serve sin instead of accepting His gift..
I don't adhere to the false doctrine of "You do nothing".
I had to accept the gift/believe, repent of sin, get baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, and still need to endure faithfully till the end.
Your thesis is ludicrous.
Your "doctrine" puts the blame for billions of souls in the lake of fire on God.
If He didn't "choose" them from the foundation of the world, He doesn't love them.
We know that is a lie.
"Agreed on all points. I might quibble that knowledge is a necessary component of salvation, but Christ is needed to cause one to believe that knowledge. In other words, you have to have something to believe in order to believe it. Hmmm, well technically, Christ would ordain a person to tell you about Him. In short, I agree with you that you are saved by Christ alone. (probably semantics"Agreed on all points. I might quibble that knowledge is a necessary component of salvation, but Christ is needed to cause one to believe that knowledge. In other words, you have to have something to believe in order to believe it. Hmmm, well technically, Christ would ordain a person to tell you about Him. In short, I agree with you that you are saved by Christ alone. (probably semantics
My question by way of example is: Person "A" makes a confession of faith and believes the CAUSE of his salvific belief is himself (not God) as in natural IMO. Ten years later he learns that the CAUSE of his belief is God and person "A" believes that to be true. Under your proposal, person "A" was not saved until he believed the CAUSE of his faith was God. Is that what you are proposing? If that is what you are proposing, then part of ones evangelizing another must include this information IMO.
Aside: R.C. Sproul and myself could be substituted for person "A".
I'm probably missing something, but I don't quite understand why knowledge would be a necessary component of salvation? Seems to me when you say "to have something to believe in" means that someone's belief contributes to them becoming saved in some way? If Christ is the Savior (and I believe that He is), then nothing is needed or can be added by anyone to help effectuate it; that is, Christ alone does the saving. I don't think it even necessary "to cause one to believe that knowledge" -- in order to become saved. Believing in Him is NOT what causes salvation. True belief, (or faith) is the RESULT of salvation, not the cause or contributory of it. All that is necessary for God to save someone is that He has chosen them for such. All of the other stuff follows afterwards, and is, from that one fact. However, if you're saying that someone needs to hear the gospel to grow in faith, I would definitely agree with that. God informs in the Bible, that the gospel will be preached in one way or another to everyone who is to become saved.
"My question by way of example is: Person "A" makes a confession of faith and believes the CAUSE of his salvific belief is himself (not God) as in natural IMO. Ten years later he learns that the CAUSE of his belief is God and person "A" believes that to be true. Under your proposal, person "A" was not saved until he believed the CAUSE of his faith was God. Is that what you are proposing? If that is what you are proposing, then part of ones evangelizing another must include this information IMO."
If someone, in their heart of hearts, believes that any action on their part causes(d) their salvation, then yes, I believe they were still under Law and unsaved up to that point (in that scenario). Ten years prior to the new revelation, person "A"'s faith was actually in himself, not in God. So, it wasn't the true gospel his faith was in, it was in a false gospel. If it is ten years later, and person "A" now truly believes that it was God to actually cause this current new faith/understanding - and even much, much more importantly than that-- his knowing that it was God who actually completely saved him (in conjunction with the new belief). So, should he remain grounded in the knowledge of who saved him, and who enlightened him, then I believe it is a sign they have truly become saved. The second is therefore is a totally different belief than the first. It comes down to that God Himself is the crux, cause and centerpiece of causing the belief, and of what is being believed. So, according to your scenario, these are really two entirely different sets of belief.
Regarding the second part of your question, I would say IMHO, that to evangelize correctly is to communication the true gospel in its entirety, of which, the prior are some of its central tenets
Hope this makes sense, it's kind of late and I'm not thinking too clearly right now, so I might have to revise it somewhat after rereading later. Questions or disagreements ? Please let me know - thanks
It's kind of late right now to leave a detailed reply so I'll try to do so tomorrow.
But for now, allow me to leave you with the following:
[Rom 9:21-23 KJV]
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
brightfame52
2024 Supporter
Now lets continue to look at the context of Heb 2:9 to see who the every man is according to it. Lets look at Vs 12 Heb 2:12
12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.
He tasted death for His Brethren. Remember Christ is the firstborn of many brethern according to the purpose of God Rom 8:29
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Also Vs 12 mentions the Church, this could be extended to include the Church the Body of Christ for whom He Loved and gave Himself for Eph 5:25
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.
He tasted death for His Brethren. Remember Christ is the firstborn of many brethern according to the purpose of God Rom 8:29
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Also Vs 12 mentions the Church, this could be extended to include the Church the Body of Christ for whom He Loved and gave Himself for Eph 5:25
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
The place of works is found in Ephesians chapter 2 as faith is that of Christ Jesus who is our faith being a free gift from God by His grace. No one works for a free gift, but only accepts it. Justification is by grace through faith, not from yourself and not by works. It is by faith alone since all human efforts are excluded here, Ephesians 2:8, 9. Ephesians goes on to say that every person who has faith is to produce good works according to God's plan Ephesians 2:10. We know also that faith without works is dead faith
These works , however, are not a cause for forgiveness, but a result of forgiveness. Faith alone justifies, but faith is never alone as it followed by good works. The works of love are the goal of the saving faith, 1 Timothy 1:5.
James 1:16-18 clearly teaches that the recipients of the letter have been justified by God through the saving gospel which is Christ Jesus who is our faith. James also taught in James 2:14-26 that faith is dead within us if not followed by good works as it takes faith and good works to justify us. It begins with faith alone when we first accept Jesus as Lord and Savior and then we become his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
You don't understand the process from a REFORMED perspective. God causes one to want to believe. Analogy: I offer $1M to a person and he willing takes the money. I did not force the money on him, I gave him an offer he could not refuse.
You don't understand the process from a REFORMED perspective. It's not that we do nothing. We do something, but what we do is the effect and God is the cause of the effect. Every effect has a cause by definition. I hammer a nail into the wood. Yes, the hammer had to force the nail into the wood, yes the hammer did something ... but the ultimate cause was me in the analogy.
The penalty for sin is death. They sinned and they are the cause of an eternal 'hot foot'. It is true that God could have saved everyone. He choose not to.
Agreed. Psalm 5:5 The boastful and the arrogant will not stand in Your sight; You hate all who do evil.
Premise 0: God's love is defined as a volition to favor.
Premise 1: Faith cometh by hearing of Christ.
Premise 2: We are saved by faith in Christ.
Premise 3: Billions of people are dead that have never heard of Christ.
Premise 4: God was/is capable of ensuring everyone hears of Christ.
Conclusion: God does not love/favor everyone because He purposely does not give billions of people an opportunity to be saved. Therefore, "God loves everyone is a lie".
Which PREMISE is wrong? ... and why?
Premise 0: God's love is defined as a volition to favor.
Premise 1: God is holy and therefore cannot love that which is evil
Premise 2: Men who are and never will be IN CHRIST are evil
Conclusion: God hate (does not favor/love) all those the will never be IN CHRIST. Therefore, "God loves everyone is a lie".
Which PREMISE is wrong? ... and why?
Aside: I think we are agree on salvation in regards to knowledge. We say it differently.
People who insist they must do works to be saved are walking of dangerous grounds ... but many are confused in regards to whether WORKS is a cause or effect of salvation.
Relevant 3 minute clip:
I am sympathetic to your view point in regards to people believing they are the cause of their faith.
People who insist they must do works to be saved are walking of dangerous grounds ... but many are confused in regards to whether WORKS is a cause or effect of salvation.
Relevant 3 minute clip:
I understand estimates, but also understand facts as the two are very different.
The point being is that Christ Jesus sacrificed His life (tasted physical death), being God's plan of salvation through Him before the foundation of the world making atonement for all mankind's sin as all are called to repent, but many turn a deaf ear to God calling them. This brings us back to Romans 1:18-25 as there will be no excuse before the Lord on judgement day when Christ returns.
Jesus said in Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
In our era of 2021 the Gospel is being reached even in areas around the world that man does not fear to go into taking no thought for their own life as many have died a martyr's death for the sake of Christ. I truly believe that even the remotest of villages will be brought the Gospel before the return of Christ, but yet many will continue to reject even what they do hear.
Agreed on all points. But you again avoid the FACT that billions of people will never hear of Christ. This PROVES that God does not LOVE EVERYONE and God does not give EVERYONE as choice (freewill?) to choose Him or NOT choose Him. To simplify:
Premise 1: Faith cometh by hearing of Christ.
Premise 2: We are saved by faith in Christ.
Premise 3: Billions of people are dead that have never heard of Christ.
Premise 4: God was/is capable of ensuring everyone hears of Christ.
Conclusion: God does not love/favor everyone because He purposely does not give billions of people an opportunity to be saved. Therefore, "God loves everyone is either a lie or the bar is set very low for your definition of God's love/favor".
Which PREMISE is wrong? ... and why?
Similarly, not everyone has freewill (almost no one is brave enough to define it on the Arminian side) but we do know part of the definition of freewill is to have a CHOICE. BILLIONS of people will NOT have a Choice to belief Christ died for them.
This is also my conclusion that God gives everyone a chance to be saved as He is a God of love and does not send anyone to hell as he would that none should perish. But it is those who have already condemned themselves to hell for rejecting God and His Son Christ Jesus. The lake of fire was only to be for Satan and his dominion, but we see many that have and will continue to allow themselves to also have a place there on the day of judgement. Does one truly believe that God takes any pleasure in losing even one soul!!! God forbid.
'The place of works is found in Ephesians chapter 2 as faith is that of Christ Jesus who is our faith being a free gift from God by His grace. No one works for a free gift, but only accepts it. Justification is by grace through faith, not from yourself and not by works. It is by faith alone since all human efforts are excluded here, Ephesians 2:8, 9. Ephesians goes on to say that every person who has faith is to produce good works according to God's plan Ephesians 2:10. We know also that faith without works is dead faith"
Sorry, not exactly sure of the point you're making here. If it is that one has to "accept" the gift to take possession of it, I would disagree. If it is that one accepts the truth of it AFTER having received it by the renewing of the mind, I would most definitely agree. Please observe:
[Eph 4:22-24 KJV]
22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; 23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
[Tit 3:5 KJV]
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
"James 1:16-18 clearly teaches that the recipients of the letter have been justified by God through the saving gospel which is Christ Jesus who is our faith. James also taught in James 2:14-26 that faith is dead within us if not followed by good works as it takes faith and good works to justify us. It begins with faith alone when we first accept Jesus as Lord and Savior and then we become his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."
I would disagree with your statement above. We become justified solely and exclusively by Christ's work, not ours in any sense. I do agree however that good works (in a spiritual sense) follows and are performed by true believers, but AFTER already having become saved, not before or as a precondition for it. How can someone perform good works spiritually if they're following a wrong or sinful gospel?
In 2:18 I believe the "man" in view to be Christ Himself, not just any/every man. We are informed in it that Christ accomplished BOTH faith AND works to God's complete satisfaction. Further, it tells us that if we choose to claim either our faith and/or works as our justification, we'd better have done both perfectly, yet in reality, only Christ was able accomplished it - we could never come close for a multitude of reasons. I believe that 2:18 is a form of a warning to us to consider ourselves justified singularly by Christ. Again, I do not mean to say that true believers shouldn't and/or don't perform good works spiritually speaking, but not to use or trust them as self-justification.
[Jas 2:14 KJV]
14 What [doth it] profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
[Jas 2:18 KJV]
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
"This is also my conclusion that God gives everyone a chance to be saved"
If so, then we remain under the law and not under grace (for to gain faith in Christ is a work).
The question of questions then is: what does the term Savior mean to you if He doesn't save us?
That is, if in your belief, there's only one thing that we must do to become saved, which is to accept Jesus,
and we do it from our own volition (were we able to), then, in that case, we would have unquestionably
saved ourselves, right ?
[Rom 4:4-5 KJV]
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
[Jhn 6:29 KJV] 29
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
So, if faith is a work, yet nevertheless, some "believeth on him" -- In that case then, their faith must have been given to, and instilled within them, solely as a gift -- neither being a work nor a choice, on their part.
"his faith": Christ's faith is counted for righteousness, not the recipient's.
Jesus speaking here:
[Jhn 17:9 KJV] 9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
Only those the Father gave to Jesus are they that He prayed for.
My point is not that we shouldn't seek after Christ, but that if we do, and do so according to the doctrine of grace espoused by Bible, then it is only because God has first drawn us into such.
[Phl 3:12 KJV] 12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
So the bottom line point of everything that I've posted is simply this: that Jesus Christ alone is the Savior.
The whosoever in John 3:16 is all who will believe in Christ as He did die for all mankind as being God's plan of salvation through Christ Jesus before the foundation of the world. We are all made in the image of God that He would that His creation of mankind should be holy and without blame, but we know not everyone is holy or without blame beginning with Cain. God's grace is extended to all who will accept His free gift of grace.
God did not predestine the man (which individuals would be saved & lost), He predestined the plan (how men would be saved) - read again Acts 10:34-35; Eph. 1:3-12; Rom. 8:28-30; 10:9-17.
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
The word translated "evil" is from a Hebrew word kelalah that means adversary, affliction, calamity, distress and misery. This is what God has created and puts on those who He has cursed for their rebellion against God so they know "I AM" in all sovereignty, Deuteronomy 27:11-26.
Exodus Chapter 7-11 is a witness of the "Great I AM" and what God brought forth in His affliction, calamity, distress and misery on Pharaoh and the Egyptians.
God gave Pharaoh and the Egyptians a chance to repent and turn back to Him, but they rejected God.