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Tasted Death for every Man !

rogerg

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Are you unaware of Jesus' words in Matt.7:8?
It is written..."For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened."
Again, I knocked and He answered.


Unbelievers have had their minds blinded by the devil.
I am proof that some can break those bonds.
Our God is way more powerful than the god of this world.

Regarding Matt 7:8, I believe the context of the adjacent verses (and hence, that verse too) pertains to the children of God (to include a son). To be a child of God, one must be of the elect; that is, has already been chosen of God to salvation. Consequently, I do not perceive verse 7:8, to be about becoming saved, but rather, is referring to a child of God's desire for spiritual wisdom and knowledge I.E, "seeking", "knocking", "finding", ETC., but not in "becoming".

Regarding your second point, I am not entirely sure how to reply to its first part since I can't comment or judge someone else's salvation; however, for the second, I would definitely agree and say that He manifested that power in Jesus Christ, and made it known in/by His gospel and its doctrine. But, that power is NEVER used by Him in such a way so as to turn it contrary to His own doctrines.
 

for_his_glory

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When you reply like this it makes it look like I said this. This can cause controversy.

for_his_glory said:
It's like saying the ten commandments are part of the 613 Levitical Laws as laws are commands in instruction from God who places all things in order for our Spiritual growth as we trust and obey Him. There is no way we can know what other commands God gave to Adam, but IMO they would be the same as what Noah followed. Cain knew it was wrong to kill, but he slew his brother out of jealousy so I would think Adam taught his children of God's commands like the seven I listed. Some things we can only be speculations or assumptions unless we can uncover the facts.



Now I will reply to your post #119


www.jewfaq.org

Noahic (Noah) Commandments are seven commandments first given to Adam by God before the flood and brought to remembrance by God to Noah after the flood, which are binding on both Jew and Gentile as there were no Jew or Gentile in the days of Noah. Abraham was the first one to be called a Hebrew, Genesis 14:13. The seven make up the first parts of the ten that God gave to Moses on Mt Sinai in Exodus 20. Below is a comparison list of the seven and the full ten which are all a part of the 613 laws given to Moses as some were for the Hebrews pertaining to the rituals of the Temple, sacrifices, festivals, Torah, Kohanim and Levites, the King and the Nazarite and then there are the existing moral laws (commandments) for all, Jew and Gentile to follow. Christ did not come to destroy all the laws, but to fulfill the parts of the Temple and sacrifices, Matthew 5:17-22.

Noahic Laws:
Not to worship idols.
Not to curse God.
To establish courts of justice.
Not to commit murder.
Not to commit adultery or sexual immorality.
Not to steal.
Not to eat flesh torn from a living animal.

Mt. Sinai Laws:
You shall have no other gods before Me.
You shall not make idols.
You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.
Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Honor your father and your mother.
You shall not murder.
You shall not commit adultery.
You shall not steal.
You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
You shall not covet.


Part of the ten laws broken down to various commands within one law:
Other gods and idols are as one not to worship, but broke down into two commands
Remember the Sabbath was added to the ten commandments by God as a remembrance of all God did in six days (Gods timing) and rested on the seventh, Genesis 2:1-3; Matthew 12:1-13
To establish courts of justice was only given to Noah for the new generations to come after the flood
Honor your father and mother was not given to Noah, but was added to the ten commandments by God as the generations grew.
Not to covet was added to the ten commandments by God, but broke down into seven commands as your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.
 

for_his_glory

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If Christ died for all mankind, then all mankind MUST be saved. Otherwise, the double jeopardy thing comes into effect: Christ's sacrificed for them but then they must still suffer judgment and punishment- double jeopardy.
How do you explain the definition of the word "whosoever" in John 3:16?

I understand it to mean that Christ died for all the sins of mankind, but it is up to mankind to receive God's free gift of grace through faith that is Christ Jesus in whom is our faith we trust in and transforms us through the Spiritual rebirth from above, John 3:5-7. Remember, faith comes by hearing the word and to those who knock on the door Christ will open it before them and receive them into the kingdom of God, Romans 10:17; Matthew 7:7-8.
If God is "no respecter of persons", then I think that would mean that whatever they do, especially as it relates to salvation, carries no weight with Him
God is no respecter to person as all can come before Him and receive His free gift of grace. Seek and ye shall find, knock and the door shall be opened. It's God that calls us back to Him by His Holy Spirit, but many refuse to answer His calling them. We can not work towards salvation as it's a free gift from God, Ephesians 2:8-9.
The only ones to truly "feareth him " and who truly "worketh righteousness". are those who have become saved
and the Holy Spirit has renewed their minds. They have come to understand and believe in the true gospel. This does does not apply to everyone.
This I can agree with as it only applies to those who seek and find Him.
Don't understand your reference to Eph.? 1.3 as it relates to the salutation of 1.1, which explicitly identifies its audience as believers :"to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus" -- those who are already saved.
The reference in Ephesians 1:1-14 is about Spiritual blessings in Christ through the Spiritual rebirth from above as those by faith in Christ (Christ being the plan of God's salvation before the foundation of the world) have been adopted into His family inheriting the kingdom of God, John 3:3.

Look at vs. 4 in Ephesians 1, God predestined us before the foundation of the world that we would be His elect as being holy and blameless before Him. Other words we had no sin until sin became known and we all fell short of God's glory. Jesus was/is God's plan of salvation before the foundation of the world as it is by faith, not the law that saves us. Unfortunitly not everyone has or will come to faith in Him.

"Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

Sorry, don't get that one either.
I used Isaiah 45:7 to show how God uses the wicked in order to show His sovereignty as being "I AM", the one with all the power and authority that through His signs and wonders, like that of the plagues of Egypt, that man will know He is the true God of all creation.
 

for_his_glory

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I am in complete agreement. But this does not address the context of my post to rogerg .

Paraphrasing (hopefully close to accurately) ...
Roger said one is not actually saved if one believes his faith is caused by oneself as this is a work and disqualifies one as we are not saved by works. (He didn't quote Gal. 5:2-4ish, but I think that is his source).
So, assuming that to be true I asked when is a person is saved in the hypothetical situation where:
1) one first comes to be saved believing his faith was not caused by God but himself.
2) Then later he comes to believe his faith was caused by God and not himself. (Sorry, getting wordy)
.... anyways, that was the jest of my query to him ... and Roger said the person is not saved till 2)

something like that ...hard to follow posts at times.
I agree it is hard trying to catch up with all the postings.

I think Ephesians 2:8, 9 and then back tract to John 3:5-7 and Romans 10:9, 10 we can see that salvation is by God's grace through faith which is Christ Jesus in whom we are made righteous again by God's righteousness.

Some try to work for their salvation, not receiving the free gift of grace as they try to climb up a different way by their own self righteousness which is a filthy rag to God.

John 10:1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
John 10:2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.

Mat 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
Mat 7:8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
 

Fastfredy0

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How do you explain the definition of the word "whosoever" in John 3:16?
What the text teaches is that everyone who believes in Christ will be saved. Whoever does A (believes) will receive B (everlasting life). The text says nothing, absolutely nothing, about who will ever believe. It says nothing about fallen man’s natural moral ability. Reformed people and non-Reformed people both heartily agree that all who believe will be saved. They heartily disagree about who has the ability to believe. (Ligonier)

Whomsoever jumps off the top of the Eiffel Tower will die.
Your consistent interpretation of the above sentence following the logic of a similar statement in John 3:16 is that everyone without exception has an opportunity to jump off the Eiffel Tower. This is not reasonable.

We know that John 3:16 does not refer to God loves everyone without exception using the syllogism:
Premise 0: God's love is defined as a volition to favor. Some people believe WORLD in John 3:16 means everyone without exception. So we have God loves everyone without exception
Premise 1: Faith cometh by hearing of Christ.
Premise 2: We are saved by faith in Christ.
Premise 3: Billions of people are dead that have never heard of Christ.
Premise 4: God was/is capable of ensuring everyone hears of Christ.
Conclusion: God does not love/favor everyone because He purposely does not give billions of people an opportunity to be saved. Therefore, "God loves everyone without exception is a lie".

Premise 1: God does contradict himself (He doesn't lie)
Premise 2: God does not love everyone without exception (see above)
Conclusion: you have to seek another meaning when evaluating John 3:16
 

for_his_glory

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Conclusion: God does not love/favor everyone because He purposely does not give billions of people an opportunity to be saved. Therefore, "God loves everyone without exception is a lie".
Sorry, but I can not agree with this conclusion as in God's love for mankind He has always given everyone an opportunity to repent and turn back to Him. It's not God's fault that many lack knowledge or have already condemned themselves to hell fire as they have rejected God from the beginning starting with Cain in whom I am sure Adam taught him about God, but yet rejected that of what he heard, Hosea 4:6-7. God created us to be holy without blame as He breathed His breath in us making us a living soul. God did not create us to be sinful or to reject Him as we know it was Satan that introduced sin into the hearts of man. God is a God of love that He would that none should perish.

Per the rest of your post #125 Actually I was asking rogerg per our conversation how he explains the word whosoever, but that's OK.

What you present is what the Ligonier website, that is a Calvinistic site, believes. Let's go to the Greek definition.

"whosoever" in the Greek can be translated "the believing ones" or "the ones believing" and still maintain the the seeming Greek construction of πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων as tending towards a generalization, that is, as in "anyone who believes," instead of it being interpreted as referring to a specific class or group of persons at the exclusion of others?

Conclusion: Whosoever is anyone who will believe. It excludes those who refuse to believe.
 

Fastfredy0

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He [God] has always given everyone an opportunity to repent and turn back to Him.
Please, please, please tell me HOW a 1282 North American Indian who never heard of Christ is saved.
I know the gospel of Paul whereby we are saved ... what is the gospel of salvation according to for_his_glory whereby that 1282 North American Indian is saved. Please, tell me how and the source of this revelation. Please.

It's not God's fault that many lack knowledge or have already condemned themselves to hell fire as they have rejected God from the beginning starting with Cain in whom I am sure Adam taught him about God, but yet rejected that of what he heard, Hosea 4:6-7
Agreed. I don't see how this is relevant to your statement: "He [God] has always given everyone an opportunity to repent and turn back to Him." How did people who are dead and never heard of Christ, how did they to turn to Him to be saved.
Opportunity is defined as a set of circumstances that makes it possible to do something.

God created us to be holy without blame as He breathed His breath in us making us a living soul. God did not create us to be sinful or to reject Him as we know it was Satan that introduced sin into the hearts of man.
"to be" implies in the future. To say that "God did not create us to be sinful or to reject Him" is to say an all knowing God created us and did not know we would become sinful and reject him. Either this was God's plan, or God is not omniscient. If God be God then He is all powerful, all knowing and all wise and nothing can occur that He does not plan. Granted, God did not CAUSE them to sin.
  • "But our God is in the heavens: He hath done whatsoever He hath pleased" (Psalm 115:3).
  • "For the LORD of hosts hath purposed, and who shall disannul it? and His hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back?" (Isaiah 14:27).
  • Psalm 103:19 The LORD has established His throne in the heavens; And His sovereignty rules over all.
  • Ephesians 1:11b Who works out everything in agreement with the counsel and design of His [own] will.
  • Job 42:2 “I know that You can do all things, And that no thought or purpose of Yours can be restrained. (are we to believe Satan restrained God's purpose?)
That fact that when we are glorified we will not be able to sin is proof God can stop all sinning anytime He wants ... or God could simply have created an Adam He knew would not sin.


God is a God of love that He would that none should perish.
Premise 1: God is love (volition to favor)
Premise 2: God would that none should perish.
Premise 3: People perish
Conclusion: God is not all powerful (or all knowing) This contradicts scripture

Aside: God has a 'moral will' and a 'sovereign will'; what He defines as morally right and what He decides to do respectfully. There is scripture that says God wishes none to perish. But this cannot be His Sovereign will or none would perish.
Furthermore, if God has determines that billions of people will never hear of Christ and since we are saved by belief in Christ it is obvious God does not wish these people to be saved. Since agape love is defined as a volition to favor it is obvious God does NOT love these people unless you diminish the definition of love (favor) to the rain falls on the good and the evil.


Conclusion: Whosoever is anyone who will believe. It excludes those who refuse to believe.
Agreed. Aside: A majority do not define "whosoever" this way.
 

Rollo Tamasi

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What the text teaches is that everyone who believes in Christ will be saved. Whoever does A (believes) will receive B (everlasting life). The text says nothing, absolutely nothing, about who will ever believe. It says nothing about fallen man’s natural moral ability. Reformed people and non-Reformed people both heartily agree that all who believe will be saved. They heartily disagree about who has the ability to believe. (Ligonier)

Whomsoever jumps off the top of the Eiffel Tower will die.
Your consistent interpretation of the above sentence following the logic of a similar statement in John 3:16 is that everyone without exception has an opportunity to jump off the Eiffel Tower. This is not reasonable.

We know that John 3:16 does not refer to God loves everyone without exception using the syllogism:
Premise 0: God's love is defined as a volition to favor. Some people believe WORLD in John 3:16 means everyone without exception. So we have God loves everyone without exception
Premise 1: Faith cometh by hearing of Christ.
Premise 2: We are saved by faith in Christ.
Premise 3: Billions of people are dead that have never heard of Christ.
Premise 4: God was/is capable of ensuring everyone hears of Christ.
Conclusion: God does not love/favor everyone because He purposely does not give billions of people an opportunity to be saved. Therefore, "God loves everyone without exception is a lie".

Premise 1: God does contradict himself (He doesn't lie)
Premise 2: God does not love everyone without exception (see above)
Conclusion: you have to seek another meaning when evaluating John 3:16
You say, "God loves everyone without exception is a lie".
Who has not heard of Christ and then died?
Anyone you know?
Let's hear it.
 

Fastfredy0

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You say, "God loves everyone without exception is a lie".
Who has not heard of Christ and then died?
Anyone you know?
Let's hear it.
Well, this is a no brainer to answer. I am surprised anyone would ask for evidence.

Eph. 2:12 remember that at that time you were separated from Christ [excluded from any relationship with Him], alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise [with no share in the sacred Messianic promise and without knowledge of God’s agreements], having no hope [in His promise] and [living] in the world without God. AMP

Romans 10:13
13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord [in prayer] will be saved.” 14 But how will people call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how will they believe in Him of whom they have not heard?

Empirical Evidence
joshua project - Google Search.png
 

Rollo Tamasi

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Well, this is a no brainer to answer. I am surprised anyone would ask for evidence.

Eph. 2:12 remember that at that time you were separated from Christ [excluded from any relationship with Him], alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise [with no share in the sacred Messianic promise and without knowledge of God’s agreements], having no hope [in His promise] and [living] in the world without God. AMP

Romans 10:13
13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord [in prayer] will be saved.” 14 But how will people call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how will they believe in Him of whom they have not heard?

Empirical Evidence
View attachment 11275
That's a no brainer to answer you.
Well, I'm willing to bet they've heard.
Prove me wrong.
 

brightfame52

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Lets continue to look at the context of Heb 2:9 Vs 13 can aid in understanding who the every man is who Christ tasted death for:
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.

13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

So He tasted death for every one of the children God gave Him

Jesus mention there were some He was to give Eternal life to, as many as the Father hath given Him Jn 17:2
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
 

brightfame52

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roger

All the unsaved (which we all were at some point), are already under His judgment and wrath.

I have been enjoying the things you have been posting. I do have a question however about the quoted comment. agree the elect like other sinners are born sinners, even children of wrath as others Eph 2:3 However would it be wrong to say that the elect, whom God Loved in Christ from everlasting Jer 31:3; Jn 17:23; and Christ having een made a curse for them Gal 3:13 are under the wrath of God when yet unconverted ? Doesnt that nullify the fact that for them, Christd death has been a propitiation and Gods wrath for them has been satisfied, appeased y the blood of Christ, even while they're unconverted. Looking forward to your response.
 

for_his_glory

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Please, please, please tell me HOW a 1282 North American Indian who never heard of Christ is saved.
I know the gospel of Paul whereby we are saved ... what is the gospel of salvation according to @for_his_glory whereby that 1282 North American Indian is saved. Please, tell me how and the source of this revelation. Please.
Please tell me how you know that a 1282 North American Indian never heard of Christ. Indians migrated to America like everyone else so they could of had opportunity to hear about Christ. For that matter what about everyone from the time of Adam, before the birth of Christ, how were they saved as they never heard of Christ? Does that mean they are all damned? How do you know the American Indian had no faith in God as they believed in a God of all creation. I know, you will tell me it's not the God we serve.

The gospel of salvation according to me and what I teach is what has already been written in the scriptures as being the doctrines of Christ. I do not take what I have learned from Calvinistic websites, or any other religious websites as all my studies come from scripture as the Holy Spirit teaches me everything God wants me to learn. The word of God is not hard to understand, but it is man's theories and religious doctrines of their particular denominations/non-denominations that make studying so confusing and contradicting. God is not the author of confusion, but of a sound mind that we are to study to show ourselves approved to Him alone. I'm not saying I know it all or that I am infallible as I am far from it, but when presented with something that does not sit well in my spirit I will find truth.

What it all boils down to is that you take a Calvinistic stance in what you learn and I do not and for that we will never see eye to eye on certain things. God did predestined who would be His elect as it those who are holy before Him without blame.


"to be" implies in the future.
"To be" means to exist as from the beginning when God predestined us to be Holy and blameless before Him.


Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Eph 1:8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
 

JLB

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Billions of people are dead that have never heard of Christ.

If God had predestined them for salvation, what would this matter.

Your conclusion is based on the supposition that everyone from Adam must have heard of Christ in order to be saved, to qualify as God’s elect.

Is this your belief?



JLB
 

JLB

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Christd death has been a propitiation and Gods wrath for them has been satisfied, appeased y the blood of Christ, even while they're unconverted. Looking forward to your response.


Your theory that people are saved, free of God’s wrath, before they hear and believe the Gospel, is unbiblical.


It makes a mockery of the price so many have paid to reach the lost throughout the world with the Gospel, as well as the millions of martyrs who refused to renounce Him when faced with persecution, torture and death.


It disregards the teachings of Christ and the Apostles concerning obeying the Lord, and His commandments to remain in Christ.


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24


In short, your “doctrine“ is not from Christ.

It’s a doctrine that leads people to disregard the teachings of Christ, and His commandments.


Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 1 Timothy 4:1


Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9


He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him. John 3:36


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, Hebrews 5:9


Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you. 1 Timothy 4:16



Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. Revelation 22:14





JLB
 
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Fastfredy0

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I can not agree with this conclusion as in God's love for mankind He has always given everyone an opportunity to repent and turn back to Him.

Please tell me how you know that a 1282 North American Indian never heard of Christ.
The same way I know that you can't win 5 power-ball lotteries in a row. The probability is so low as to be impossible. We know people never heard of Christ. It is ridiculous to think otherwise. Even today there are billions of people who have never heard of Christ per the Joshua project. Missionaries for centuries have reported finding people who have never heard of Christ. You argument is so preposterous that I have to wonder if you are being serious, I know you are intelligent so, maybe you are just "pulling my chain".:nono


or that matter what about everyone from the time of Adam, before the birth of Christ, how were they saved as they never heard of Christ?
Irrelevant. Your statement in post #126 is
I can not agree with this conclusion as in God's love for mankind He has always given everyone an opportunity to repent and turn back to Him.
Thus my ability or inability to answer this question is irrelevant. What is relevant is that I have shown people have never heard of Christ and thus your statement that "He has always given everyone an opportunity to repent and turn back to Him" is false unless you can tell us the gospel according to for_his_glory whereby a person who has not heard of Christ in the last 2000 years is saved. My example is the 1282 N.A. Indian, there are billions of other examples.


How do you know the American Indian had no faith in God as they believed in a God of all creation.
You know the answer to your own question. I will review
Premise 1: Faith cometh by hearing of Christ. They NEVER heard of Christ
Premise 2: We are saved by faith in Christ.
Conclusion: We know the 1282 N.A. Indian (this is just an example among billions) has no faith

Perhaps you have a notion like the Mormons .... perhaps Jesus came to N.A.? Did Jesus visit everyone? or send prophets? How about South America, Australia.
Or perhaps you speak of a SAVING FAITH in something/someone else; but NOT IN CHRIST.


The gospel of salvation according to me and what I teach is what has already been written in the scriptures as being the doctrines of Christ. I do not take what I have learned from Calvinistic websites, or any other religious websites as all my studies come from scripture as the Holy Spirit teaches me everything God wants me to learn. The word of God is not hard to understand, but it is man's theories and religious doctrines of their particular denominations/non-denominations that make studying so confusing and contradicting.
The source of you theological understanding is irrelevant if it contradicts scripture or empirical evidence ... again I ask you to validate your statement, "He has always given everyone an opportunity to repent and turn back to Him" given the incontrovertible evidence to the contrary:
1) People are saved by faith in Christ (Scripture)
2) Many people have never heard of Christ (incontrovertible evidence)
Therefore, your statement is false as this is proof God has NOT given everyone an opportunity to repent and turn back to Him.





I'm not saying I know it all or that I am infallible ... when presented with something that does not sit well in my spirit I will find truth.
This is a contradiction. You can't say you are fallible and your spirit finds truth.
We are all fallible. But I know logic and what it is to be rational. Thus the statement: People without faith in Christ have an opportunity to be saved. THIS IS NOT RATIONAL. Your correct, God is not a God of confusion; He is rational. He does not you have be saved by faith in Christ even though you have never heard of Christ to those born in the last 2000 years.


What it all boils down to is that you take a Calvinistic stance in what you learn and I do not
This is not denominational. It is being rational. "A" cannot be not "A". You can't be save by knowledge of Christ and not heard of Christ. Every Christian denomination believes you are saved by faith in Christ; no Christian denomination believes you are saved by not knowing Christ ... but that is what you propose. Show the scripture where one is saved that does NOT know Christ .. please.


but when presented with something that does not sit well in my spirit I will find truth.
There are multitudes of devoted, intelligent, trained Christians who find 'truth' that contradicts what you have found. I suggest that you have found "your truth" and they have found "their truth" but since there is contradiction no one can claim positively that they have found THE TRUTH. So, you have found YOUR TRUTH and it may be THE TRUTH.


What it all boils down to is that you take a Calvinistic stance in what you learn and I do not
I disagree. I am not basing my stance on Calvinism. I agree that you are basing basing your stance on what YOUR TRUTH. I am not basing my stance on Calvinism. I am basing my stance on scripture and observable facts and being rational:
Scripture: We are saved by faith in Christ (non-Calvinists agree)
Observable Fact: Many people have never heard of Christ, of which many have died (non-Calvinists agree)
Conclusion: Your statement that: "He has always given everyone an opportunity to repent and turn back to Him" is provably false. Any other conclusion is irrational (unless you can show one can be saved without hearing of Christ since Christ death, or everyone who has died know of Christ).
 

Rollo Tamasi

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The same way I know that you can't win 5 power-ball lotteries in a row. The probability is so low as to be impossible. We know people never heard of Christ. It is ridiculous to think otherwise. Even today there are billions of people who have never heard of Christ per the Joshua project. Missionaries for centuries have reported finding people who have never heard of Christ. You argument is so preposterous that I have to wonder if you are being serious, I know you are intelligent so, maybe you are just "pulling my chain".:nono



Irrelevant. Your statement in post #126 is

Thus my ability or inability to answer this question is irrelevant. What is relevant is that I have shown people have never heard of Christ and thus your statement that "He has always given everyone an opportunity to repent and turn back to Him" is false unless you can tell us the gospel according to for_his_glory whereby a person who has not heard of Christ in the last 2000 years is saved. My example is the 1282 N.A. Indian, there are billions of other examples.



You know the answer to your own question. I will review
Premise 1: Faith cometh by hearing of Christ. They NEVER heard of Christ
Premise 2: We are saved by faith in Christ.
Conclusion: We know the 1282 N.A. Indian (this is just an example among billions) has no faith

Perhaps you have a notion like the Mormons .... perhaps Jesus came to N.A.? Did Jesus visit everyone? or send prophets? How about South America, Australia.
Or perhaps you speak of a SAVING FAITH in something/someone else; but NOT IN CHRIST.



The source of you theological understanding is irrelevant if it contradicts scripture or empirical evidence ... again I ask you to validate your statement, "He has always given everyone an opportunity to repent and turn back to Him" given the incontrovertible evidence to the contrary:
1) People are saved by faith in Christ (Scripture)
2) Many people have never heard of Christ (incontrovertible evidence)
Therefore, your statement is false as this is proof God has NOT given everyone an opportunity to repent and turn back to Him.






This is a contradiction. You can't say you are fallible and your spirit finds truth.
We are all fallible. But I know logic and what it is to be rational. Thus the statement: People without faith in Christ have an opportunity to be saved. THIS IS NOT RATIONAL. Your correct, God is not a God of confusion; He is rational. He does not you have be saved by faith in Christ even though you have never heard of Christ to those born in the last 2000 years.



This is not denominational. It is being rational. "A" cannot be not "A". You can't be save by knowledge of Christ and not heard of Christ. Every Christian denomination believes you are saved by faith in Christ; no Christian denomination believes you are saved by not knowing Christ ... but that is what you propose. Show the scripture where one is saved that does NOT know Christ .. please.



There are multitudes of devoted, intelligent, trained Christians who find 'truth' that contradicts what you have found. I suggest that you have found "your truth" and they have found "their truth" but since there is contradiction no one can claim positively that they have found THE TRUTH. So, you have found YOUR TRUTH and it may be THE TRUTH.



I disagree. I am not basing my stance on Calvinism. I agree that you are basing basing your stance on what YOUR TRUTH. I am not basing my stance on Calvinism. I am basing my stance on scripture and observable facts and being rational:
Scripture: We are saved by faith in Christ (non-Calvinists agree)
Observable Fact: Many people have never heard of Christ, of which many have died (non-Calvinists agree)
Conclusion: Your statement that: "He has always given everyone an opportunity to repent and turn back to Him" is provably false. Any other conclusion is irrational (unless you can show one can be saved without hearing of Christ since Christ death, or everyone who has died know of Christ).
You must know that you cannot call God a liar and expect that to be true.
A person making an assertion of fact soberly presented from someone in a position to know the truth can amount to libel. (Wiki)
A person who lies themselves believes all other lie as well, including, God?
 
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I see a way that all have one last opportunity to believe. Whether they were brought up in error or in ignorance, when Christ returns, each one has one last chance to obey. When He returns, everyone who has ever lived will be yanked out of their graves and either "every knee shall bow and every tongue confess" or off to the pit they go. When Thomas was given another chance he bowed his knee and said "My Lord and my God." When He returns, it will be witnessed all over the world at the same time and all through time, those that lived, have that chance. Then WHOSOEVER will be for all to have that chance to believe. It is said He will call even those in the wilderness.
 

Fastfredy0

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I see a way that all have one last opportunity to believe. Whether they were brought up in error or in ignorance, when Christ returns, each one has one last chance to obey. When He returns, everyone who has ever lived will be yanked out of their graves and either "every knee shall bow and every tongue confess" or off to the pit they go.
Well, if correct, that would make the following statement true.
He has always given everyone an opportunity to repent and turn back to Him.

DanielGarneau ... you don't happen to have any theologian that you know of that has proposed such a thing? Like, I've never heard this theory before.

Aside: I still love the idea of universalism. I don't believe it, but that too would mean: He has always given everyone an opportunity to repent and turn back to Him.
 
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