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Tasted Death for every Man !

Hopeful

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Now lets continue to look at the context of Heb 2:9 to see who the every man is according to it. Lets look at Vs 12 Heb 2:12
12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.
He tasted death for His Brethren. Remember Christ is the firstborn of many brethern according to the purpose of God Rom 8:29
Yes He did, but He tasted it for all men, as I am not ready to condemn those not in my particular church...yet.
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Also Vs 12 mentions the Church, this could be extended to include the Church the Body of Christ for whom He Loved and gave Himself for Eph 5:25
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
I guess I should ask if you consider yourself one of the lucky ones?
Then I will ask, how long you have been a non-sinner?
 

Hopeful

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You don't understand the process from a REFORMED perspective. God causes one to want to believe. Analogy: I offer $1M to a person and he willing takes the money. I did not force the money on him, I gave him an offer he could not refuse.
But God offers "the million $s" to everyone!
Some just value sin more than the "prize".
You don't understand the process from a REFORMED perspective. It's not that we do nothing. We do something, but what we do is the effect and God is the cause of the effect. Every effect has a cause by definition. I hammer a nail into the wood. Yes, the hammer had to force the nail into the wood, yes the hammer did something ... but the ultimate cause was me in the analogy.
I don't see salvation in the context of it being a "fixed fight".
The penalty for sin is death. They sinned and they are the cause of an eternal 'hot foot'. It is true that God could have saved everyone. He choose not to.
I'm glad I didn't see it from that "reformed" perspective, as I was the worst of sinners before my conversion and certainly unworthy of God's "choosing".
Had I been and adherent of "reformism", I never would have trusted Him or His grace to make me a new man.
I would have felt that the "die had been cast", and not in my favor.

I wonder how many others gave up on God after hearing that "perspective"?
 

Fastfredy0

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But God offers "the million $s" to everyone!
Some just value sin more than the "prize".
You're missing the point. You said that reformed theology teaches that God forces a person to believe. I then used the $1M was an analogy to help you understand that reform theology does not teach that a person is 'forced' to believe; rather, he is convinced and thereby freely desires/wants to believe. Apparently, I wasn't successful in conveying the difference.
Again, I am not trying at this time to convince you reform theology it true, just what it teaches ... so your statement Some just value sin more than the "prize" is not relevant to the current discussion.


I don't see salvation in the context of it being a "fixed fight".
Again, I am not trying at this time to convince you reform theology it true, just what it teaches.


I'm glad I didn't see it from that "reformed" perspective, as I was the worst of sinners before my conversion and certainly unworthy of God's "choosing".
We are are unworthy. Thus we are save by GRACE ALONE from a reform perspective. From an Arminian perspective you are saved by God's Grace and you believing independent of an outside cause.

Had I been and adherent of "reformism", I never would have trusted Him or His grace to make me a new man.
I would have felt that the "die had been cast", and not in my favor.
From a reformed perspective, you would have been saved because God chose you. There are no conditions. From an Arminium perspective, there are conditions. (Again, I am not arguing which is correct).
 

Hopeful

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"This is also my conclusion that God gives everyone a chance to be saved"

If so, then we remain under the law and not under grace (for to gain faith in Christ is a work).
The question of questions then is: what does the term Savior mean to you if He doesn't save us?
That is, if in your belief, there's only one thing that we must do to become saved, which is to accept Jesus,
and we do it from our own volition (were we able to), then, in that case, we would have unquestionably
saved ourselves, right ?

[Rom 4:4-5 KJV]
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

[Jhn 6:29 KJV] 29
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

So, if faith is a work, yet nevertheless, some "believeth on him" -- In that case then, their faith must have been given to, and instilled within them, solely as a gift -- neither being a work nor a choice, on their part.

"his faith": Christ's faith is counted for righteousness, not the recipient's.

Jesus speaking here:
[Jhn 17:9 KJV] 9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

Only those the Father gave to Jesus are they that He prayed for.

My point is not that we shouldn't seek after Christ, but that if we do, and do so according to the doctrine of grace espoused by Bible, then it is only because God has first drawn us into such.

[Phl 3:12 KJV] 12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

So the bottom line point of everything that I've posted is simply this: that Jesus Christ alone is the Savior.
"He" opened the door, after I knocked.
 

Hopeful

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You're missing the point. You said that reformed theology teaches that God forces a person to believe. I then used the $1M was an analogy to help you understand that reform theology does not teach that a person is 'forced' to believe; rather, he is convinced and thereby freely desires/wants to believe. Apparently, I wasn't successful in conveying the difference.
Again, I am not trying at this time to convince you reform theology it true, just what it teaches ... so your statement Some just value sin more than the "prize" is not relevant to the current discussion.

Again, I am not trying at this time to convince you reform theology it true, just what it teaches.
Thanks for making THAT clear !
We are are unworthy. Thus we are save by GRACE ALONE from a reform perspective. From an Arminian perspective you are saved by God's Grace and you believing independent of an outside cause.
From a reformed perspective, you would have been saved because God chose you. There are no conditions. From an Arminium perspective, there are conditions. (Again, I am not arguing which is correct).
Thanks again for the clarifications.
 

Fastfredy0

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This is also my conclusion that God gives everyone a chance to be saved
Please, please, please tell me HOW a 1282 North American Indian who never heard of Christ is saved.
I know the gospel of Paul whereby we are saved ... what is the gospel of salvation according to for_his_glory whereby that 1282 North American Indian is saved. Please, tell me how and the source of this revelation. Please.
 

rogerg

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Agreed on all points. But you again avoid the FACT that billions of people will never hear of Christ. This PROVES that God does not LOVE EVERYONE and God does not give EVERYONE as choice (freewill?) to choose Him or NOT choose Him. To simplify:

Premise 1: Faith cometh by hearing of Christ.
Premise 2: We are saved by faith in Christ.
Premise 3: Billions of people are dead that have never heard of Christ.
Premise 4: God was/is capable of ensuring everyone hears of Christ.
Conclusion: God does not love/favor everyone because He purposely does not give billions of people an opportunity to be saved. Therefore, "God loves everyone is either a lie or the bar is set very low for your definition of God's love/favor".
Which PREMISE is wrong? ... and why?
Similarly, not everyone has freewill (almost no one is brave enough to define it on the Arminian side) but we do know part of the definition of freewill is to have a CHOICE. BILLIONS of people will NOT have a Choice to belief Christ died for them.
"Premise 1: Faith cometh by hearing of Christ.
After a renewing of the mind occurs by the Holy Spirit

Premise 2: We are saved by faith in Christ.
We are saved by the FAITH of CHRIST , that is, Christ's faith.

Premise 3: Billions of people are dead that have never heard of Christ.
Possibly - not sure of the number, but they were not elected by God for salvation

Premise 4: God was/is capable of ensuring everyone hears of Christ.

Conclusion: God does not love/favor everyone because He purposely does not give billions of people an opportunity to be saved. Therefore, "God loves everyone is either a lie or the bar is set very low for your definition of God's love/favor".
Which PREMISE is wrong? ... and why?
Similarly, not everyone has freewill (almost no one is brave enough to define it on the Arminian side) but we do know part of the definition of freewill is to have a CHOICE. BILLIONS of people will NOT have a Choice to belief Christ died for them."

Those who have been blinded by Satan (and that includes all of the unsaved) do not have freewill. That group includes everyone except those saved:

[2Co 4:3 & 4 KJV]
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

So, if their minds are already blinded by Satan, how then can they have freewill, or ever choose Christ, or come to faith in Christ?
Those who become saved must first be taken from that state by God in order to gain spiritual understanding through the renewing of their minds.

Christ did not die for everyone:
[Jhn 17:9, 20 &24 KJV]
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

[Jhn 6:37 KJV]
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

I think the doctrine that you may be missing is that everyone ever to be born has broken God's law. Therefore, being in that state, it would be illegal (biblically speaking) for them to be granted salvation were it to be achieved in any part by their actions. It would be akin to making them perpetrator, judge and jury -- even if (as I think you believe), the salvation process is only initiated by them. All the unsaved (which we all were at some point), are already under His judgment and wrath. That God saves anyone, is just an act of pure unadulterated mercy and grace on HIs part which no one deserves. So, just to correctly level-set the issue, by rights, we should all have been left under a spiritual death sentence (the eternal death of our souls in Hell). No one has the right of themselves to demand otherwise.
 

Fastfredy0

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Premise 2: We are saved by faith in Christ.
We are saved by the FAITH of CHRIST , that is, Christ's faith.
Agreed to everything but the above statement. Maybe semantics. Christ doesn't believe for us which is the way I interpret your statement. We do the believing (faith) and Christ (God, the Spirit) causes us to believe.

Premise 3: Billions of people are dead that have never heard of Christ.
Possibly - not sure of the number, but they were not elected by God for salvation
https://reachbeyond.org/Advocate/RBActionGuide.pdf says estimate is 2 billion people today have not heard of Christ and that's not counting those that are dead that didn't hear (billions more).
My point was not to show they were among the elect or not; rather, these people had no chance from man's (the Arminian) point of view of being saved and this UNDENIBLE evidence contradicts the idea that God loves everyone without exception and God gives everyone without exception a chance (from man's point of view) to be saved.
(Besides, Arminians define the elect as those God chose because they chose him ... like Biden elected us because we elected him ... or something like that)
 

for_his_glory

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the question is: was such a person saved when he first thought or when he was educated and decided God was the cause and not that the cause was the person as originally thought.
I'm only using this part of your post to answer your whole post. I have no idea what Armenian's believe.

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

It was through hearing the salvation message that God drew us to Him and we answered His call to salvation through that of Christ Jesus as we confessed Him as Lord and Savior being Spiritually born again from above and indwelled with the Holy Spirit.
 

rogerg

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"This is also my conclusion that God gives everyone a chance to be saved"

If so, then we remain under the law and not under grace (for to gain faith in Christ is a work).
The question of questions then is: what does the term Savior mean to you if He doesn't save us?
That is, if in your belief, there's only one thing that we must do to become saved, which is to accept Jesus,
and we do it from our own volition (were we able to), then, in that case, we would have unquestionably
saved ourselves, right ?

[Rom 4:4-5 KJV]
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

[Jhn 6:29 KJV] 29
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

So, if faith is a work, yet nevertheless, some "believeth on him" -- In that case then, their faith must have been given to, and instilled within them, solely as a gift -- neither being a work nor a choice, on their part.

"his faith": Christ's faith is counted for righteousness, not the recipient's.

Jesus speaking here:
[Jhn 17:9 KJV] 9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

Only those the Father gave to Jesus are they that He prayed for.

My point is not that we shouldn't seek after Christ, but that if we do, and do so according to the doctrine of grace espoused by Bible, then it is only because God has first drawn us into such.

[Phl 3:12 KJV] 12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

So the bottom line point of everything that I've posted is simply this: that Jesus Christ alone is the Savior.

The whosoever in John 3:16 is all who will believe in Christ as He did die for all mankind as being God's plan of salvation through Christ Jesus before the foundation of the world. We are all made in the image of God that He would that His creation of mankind should be holy and without blame, but we know not everyone is holy or without blame beginning with Cain. God's grace is extended to all who will accept His free gift of grace.


God did not predestine the man (which individuals would be saved & lost), He predestined the plan (how men would be saved) - read again Acts 10:34-35; Eph. 1:3-12; Rom. 8:28-30; 10:9-17.
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

The word translated "evil" is from a Hebrew word kelalah that means adversary, affliction, calamity, distress and misery. This is what God has created and puts on those who He has cursed for their rebellion against God so they know "I AM" in all sovereignty, Deuteronomy 27:11-26.

Exodus Chapter 7-11 is a witness of the "Great I AM" and what God brought forth in His affliction, calamity, distress and misery on Pharaoh and the Egyptians.

God gave Pharaoh and the Egyptians a chance to repent and turn back to Him, but they rejected God.
"The whosoever in John 3:16 is all who will believe in Christ as He did die for all mankind as being God's plan of salvation through Christ Jesus before the foundation of the world. We are all made in the image of God that He would that His creation of mankind should be holy and without blame, but we know not everyone is holy or without blame beginning with Cain. God's grace is extended to all who will accept His free gift of grace"

If Christ died for all mankind, then all mankind MUST be saved. Otherwise, the double jeopardy thing comes into effect: Christ's sacrificed for them but then they must still suffer judgment and punishment- double jeopardy.

God did not predestine the man (which individuals would be saved & lost), He predestined the plan (how men would be saved) - read again Acts 10:34-35; Eph. 1:3-12; Rom. 8:28-30; 10:9-17.

[Act 10:34-35 KJV]
34 Then Peter opened [his] mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

If God is "no respecter of persons", then I think that would mean that whatever they do, especially as it relates to salvation, carries no weight with Him

35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

The only ones to truly "feareth him " and who truly "worketh righteousness". are those who have become saved
and the Holy Spirit has renewed their minds. They have come to understand and believe in the true gospel. This does does not apply to everyone.

Please consider:
[Act 13:48 KJV]
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Don't understand your reference to Eph.? 1.3 as it relates to the salutation of 1.1, which explicitly identifies its audience as believers :"to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus" -- those who are already saved.

As I read Eph, it seem dedicated to those individual who are of the Elect, not of the "plan". Maybe I misunderstand your point.

Same thing for Romans 8:29 - 30. Sounds like these verses are referring to individuals to me
[Rom 8:28-30 KJV]
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

"Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

Sorry, don't get that one either.

I must just be missing your point. Please clarify. Sorry about that

Thanks
 

Fastfredy0

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It was through hearing the salvation message that God drew us to Him and we answered His call to salvation through that of Christ Jesus as we confessed Him as Lord and Savior being Spiritually born again from above and indwelled with the Holy Spirit.
I am in complete agreement. But this does not address the context of my post to rogerg .

Paraphrasing (hopefully close to accurately) ...
Roger said one is not actually saved if one believes his faith is caused by oneself as this is a work and disqualifies one as we are not saved by works. (He didn't quote Gal. 5:2-4ish, but I think that is his source).
So, assuming that to be true I asked when is a person is saved in the hypothetical situation where:
1) one first comes to be saved believing his faith was not caused by God but himself.
2) Then later he comes to believe his faith was caused by God and not himself. (Sorry, getting wordy)
.... anyways, that was the jest of my query to him ... and Roger said the person is not saved till 2)

something like that ...hard to follow posts at times.
 

rogerg

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"He" opened the door, after I knocked.
Respectfully, I don't think this is possible. Remember, Satan has blinded the unsaved so it would be impossible to first knock - we must first be saved, then comes understanding, not the reverse:

[2Co 4:4 KJV]
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
 

Fastfredy0

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Roger ... it's getting difficult to follow your posts because in many of the posts you quote others but don't attribute the quote to someone else so it can be easily recognized as such.

Example:
thing comes into effect: Christ's sacrificed for them but then they must still suffer judgment and punishment- double jeopardy.
With the above one knows is a quote by you.
...

thing comes into effect: Christ's sacrificed for them but then they must still suffer judgment and punishment- double jeopardy.
This is the same statement, but since it doesn't identify the author, one assumes it is the part of the current post and by default attributed to the person writing the current post.

Aside: Slow learners like me need these extra helpful hints.
 

rogerg

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I am in complete agreement. But this does not address the context of my post to rogerg .

Paraphrasing (hopefully close to accurately) ...
Roger said one is not actually saved if one believes his faith is caused by oneself as this is a work and disqualifies one as we are not saved by works. (He didn't quote Gal. 5:2-4ish, but I think that is his source).
So, assuming that to be true I asked when is a person is saved in the hypothetical situation where:
1) one first comes to be saved believing his faith was not caused by God but himself.
2) Then later he comes to believe his faith was caused by God and not himself. (Sorry, getting wordy)
.... anyways, that was the jest of my query to him ... and Roger said the person is not saved till 2)

something like that ...hard to follow posts at times.
Yeah, sorry I was getting a little groggy then so I was probably wasn't as clear as I should have been. Plus, I ain't the best writer in the world.
Without cleaning it up and reposting it now, what I was trying to say was that, if, in their heat of hearts, they truly believe their salvation is a result of their own efforts in some way, then they are believing in and following a false gospel IMHO - not a sign of someone whose been saved/born again. I also think that I said (or at least meant to say) what's more important is that their perceptions of the salvation process, should rest entirely on it being of God's actions, beginning to end, and not of their own.

[Heb 12:2 KJV] 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Dunno, hope that was a little clearer.
 

rogerg

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Roger ... it's getting difficult to follow your posts because in many of the posts you quote others but don't attribute the quote to someone else so it can be easily recognized as such.

Example:

With the above one knows is a quote by you.
...

thing comes into effect: Christ's sacrificed for them but then they must still suffer judgment and punishment- double jeopardy.
This is the same statement, but since it doesn't identify the author, one assumes it is the part of the current post and by default attributed to the person writing the current post.

Aside: Slow learners like me need these extra helpful hints.
No, I'm the slow learner. So, are you saying they're nested replies from others in the one post that I'm responding to ? if so, I'll try to be more observant and careful about that in the future. Thanks for the info
 

Fastfredy0

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Plus, I ain't the best writer in the world.
You are easily understood. You write well.

So, are you saying they're nested replies
Yes, you can put a statement inside a statement. My main point was to ensure each time you quote someone you highlight the text and click on REPLY.
I did it 2 times above for example.


Quote inside a quote:
you saying they're nested

someone else so it can be easily recognized

ou saying they're nested
You can do something like above also to get what Person "A" said and what person "B" replied. I am not sure how. Something like creating the first quote box, then putting the cursor somewhere in the first quote box and going to the next text you want to insert... high lighting that text and hitting REPLY again. I still haven't mastered it.
 

Hopeful

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Respectfully, I don't think this is possible. Remember, Satan has blinded the unsaved so it would be impossible to first knock - we must first be saved, then comes understanding, not the reverse:
Are you unaware of Jesus' words in Matt.7:8?
It is written..."For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened."
Again, I knocked and He answered.

[2Co 4:4 KJV]
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Unbelievers have had their minds blinded by the devil.
I am proof that some can break those bonds.
Our God is way more powerful than the god of this world.
 

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Yes He did, but He tasted it for all men, as I am not ready to condemn those not in my particular church...yet.

I guess I should ask if you consider yourself one of the lucky ones?
Then I will ask, how long you have been a non-sinner?
So is this all you have to say about the scriptures Im providing ?
 

rogerg

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It's like saying the ten commandments are part of the 613 Levitical Laws as laws are commands in instruction from God who places all things in order for our Spiritual growth as we trust and obey Him. There is no way we can know what other commands God gave to Adam, but IMO they would be the same as what Noah followed. Cain knew it was wrong to kill, but he slew his brother out of jealousy so I would think Adam taught his children of God's commands like the seven I listed. Some things we can only be speculations or assumptions unless we can uncover the facts.

You are easily understood. You write well.


Yes, you can put a statement inside a statement. My main point was to ensure each time you quote someone you highlight the text and click on REPLY.
I did it 2 times above for example.



Quote inside a quote:

You can do something like above also to get what Person "A" said and what person "B" replied. I am not sure how. Something like creating the first quote box, then putting the cursor somewhere in the first quote box and going to the next text you want to insert... high lighting that text and hitting REPLY again. I still haven't mastered it.Thanks,

Really appreciate it -- I'm mechanically challenged so who knows what will happen but I'll give it a try
 

for_his_glory

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rogerg It's better to reply to another by adding their quote first and replying separate from that. When you quote within a quote it becomes confusing.

Under the reply box just click on the Quote button then add that quote to your reply.
 
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