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for_his_glory

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Those who Christ tasted death for are by that death delivered from death.
They are delivered from the second death in all who will by faith believe in Him. There is Spiritual death and physical death being the second death cast into the lake of fire, Rev 20:11-15.
 

for_his_glory

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Christ tasted death for all, meaning everyone in the world is given the same chance. His word has gone out into the world as no one has any excuse before Him on the day of judgement. Man refuses to seek or acknowledge there even is a God as they have hardened their hearts throughout the generations seeking their own lust.

Yes, God gives everyone a chance to repent and turn back to Him before the door of salvation is closed forever when Christ returns.

Why make this so hard to understand!!!
 

for_his_glory

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Agape love is defined as .... is unconcerned with the self and concerned with the greatest good of another. Agape isn’t born just out of emotions, feelings, familiarity, or attraction, but from the will and as a choice.
https://www.christianity.com/wiki/christian-terms/what-does-agape-love-really-mean-in-the-bible.html

It is an unusual way of Christ to show love (favor for greatest good). So, for example, God knows the 1282 North American Indian will never hear the gospel and therefore will have no opportunity to be saved. This, according to you, is love (favor for greatest good) of God for the Indian to condemn him to suffering in hell for eternity. This is the GREATEST GOD (love of God). But wait, there's more, there are billions more like this man who, for their own good, will be suffering in hell having no opportunity to by saved.

Aside: There are theologians who define degrees of love. They quote verses like the rain falls on the good and the bad. If ones means God loves everyone without exception in varying degrees, then that I could agree with.

Again, if I loved someone (favor for the greatest good) I know a way to save that person. Since God's love and knowledge finitely exceeds mine, He could save everyone if He loved (favor them to greatest degree). But He does not do it so this contradicts the definition of agape love.
Do you suppose Christ loved you before you knew Him or do you believe He hated you until you came to Him?
 

for_his_glory

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God knows the 1282 North American Indian will never hear the gospel and therefore will have no opportunity to be saved.
The Great Spirit is the concept of a life force, a Supreme being or god known as Wakan Tanka in Lakota, Gitche Manitou in Algonquian, and by other, specific names in a number Native American and First Nations cultures.

Who are you to say this is not the same God we bow down to and give thanks for all His blessings. Many Indians worship the Great Spirit in the Sky for their blessings. English call Him God, but other cultures have various names for Him.
 

Fastfredy0

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1. Gentiles knew of God, and God held them to the 7 laws within the Noahide Covenant. They were not excluded from salvation. This is a universal covenant that all of humanity is under without exception.
Very interesting. Keeping in mine that you are responding to my question of how those who have never heard of Christ can be saved ...
I was unaware of this proposed method of salvation for those today that have not heard of Christ. Nor did I know of any Christian that referred to the Talmud (the central text of Rabbinic Judaism and the primary source of Jewish religious law (halakha) and Jewish theology) as an authority on the instructions of God. I guess this is akin to Roman Catholics who use both Tradition and Scripture and the Apocrypha as a source of God's infallible instructions to man. It would be interesting to have a thread to explain all God's instructions to mankind that we are to follow using the Talmud. Do you hold all the Talmud instructions as God's word and if not how do you determine what is and is not God's instructions? Besides the Jewish people, what other group(s) hold to the authority of the Talmud? Does our Bible tell us to follow the Talmud somewhere? (you may have surmised that I don't put much stock in the Talmud's ability to relay God's word)
I am only aware of the Noahic Covenant in Genesis 9:8-17 and it does not mention these 7 laws. Where can I find the 7 laws the Talmud mentions in scripture.

So, one who has not heard of Christ can be saved if one doesn't break any of the following 7 laws. How is one forgiven for breaking any of these rules or, if one breaks a rule is he forever damned? If one hears of Christ, can he still be saved by these 7 rules if he does not believe in Christ? Is it wise to try to evangelize a person who has not broken any of these rules if knowledge of Christ would invalidate this proposed method of salvation?

According to the Talmud (wikipedia) "The non-Jews that choose to follow the Seven Laws of Noah are regarded as "Righteous Gentiles"". The bible says none are righteous, no not one ... thus the unrighteous people who follow these 7 rules go to heaven. So salvation is via the righteousness of Christ or the unrighteousness of people as long as their unrighteousness does not include any of the 7 laws for salvation of the Talmud. Interesting.
  1. Not to worship idols.
  2. Not to curse God.
  3. Not to commit murder.
  4. Not to commit adultery, bestiality, or sexual immorality.
  5. Not to steal.
  6. Not to eat flesh torn from a living animal.
  7. To establish courts of justice.
This is a new method of salvation for me. I had only heard of being saved by 'faith' or 'faith+works' by some. This is the first time I have heard of being saved by WORKS ALONE. Interesting concept.


5. Christ means the Messiah. Jesus was the promised Messiah as foretold by Moses. In other words, Christ is not the last name of Jesus. Instead, it’s a descriptor.
6. Although not in human form, Jesus was with the Father before the world was created.
7. All things were created through Jesus who had not yet come in human flesh.
8. Although not in human form, Jesus was present throughout the worlds history.
9 all truth comes through Jesus as Jesus is the Truth.
10. God has made this truth known through his creation to all generations without exception.
Agreed. I don't know how this is relevant to the salvation of people who never heard of Christ.

for_his_glory .... we don't always agree, but I hold you as an intelligent and theologically knowledgeable person. What say you to the idea of salvation by the 7 rules of the Talmud???

stovebolts ... thank you for taking the time to convey your opinion .... it was an interesting opinion
 

Fastfredy0

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Christ did taste death for everyone as he gives everyone a chance to come to Him before the door of salvation is closed forever when He returns.
If everyone has a chance to come to Christ ... how does a North American Eskimo in the year 60 A.D come to Christ. Does he take his kayak, paddle across the Pacific and travel 1000s of miles to find a Christian to explain it to him.
Let's be reasonable.... and there are billions like the Eskimo that have NO CHANCE. You are stretching credibility by ignoring tangible, demonstrable and undeniable facts to fit into your doctrine/expectation of God's will.

If He did not taste death for everyone then this would contradict scripture as God is no respecter of person.
This is not necessarily true. I could go into an alternative, but why would I bother when you refuse to admit to facts like the impossibility of an Eskimo in 50 A.D. being saved by faith in Christ ... unless you are like Stevebolts and hold to the 7 laws of the Talmud for salvation or some other method.


The knowledge has always been there since the beginning of Christ teaching then sending out the Apostles and all the disciples they made from generation to generation that have gone out into all the world. Man has no excuse as they reject the knowledge.
You don't specify what knowledge you are referring to.
My point is that billions do not have this knowledge of Christ and therefore have no chance of salvation. I agree that everyone is without excuse do to knowledge from the evidence of creation. (Romans 1)


Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
Hosea 4:7 As they were increased, so they sinned against me: therefore will I change their glory into shame.
The verses don't specify the contents of the knowledge and therefore is ambiguous. More to the point, I am only addressing the New Covenant people as the contents of knowledge for salvation is more explicit and thus the discussion is better facilitated.


Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
These are verses justifying the condemnation of men. There is NOTHING here as to how men may be saved, though you are welcome to give me specifics as to how an Eskimo born in 50 A.D. is saved using specifics from these verses.
 

Fastfredy0

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Do you suppose Christ loved you before you knew Him or do you believe He hated you until you came to Him?
Interesting question. I suppose one has to consider the attributes of God to propose an answer.

1) God is eternal. Eternity and time are not the same
2) God is immutable.
3) God is all knowing (open theists propose God does not know the future as it is not knowable, but I am not in agreement)
4) though not an attribute of God, the fact that I am a Christian is pertinent

Therefore, I answer (keeping in mind that the concept of an ETERNAL BEING is to some degree incomprehensible) that God has always loved me. He does not change so not possible to hate and later love a person and God has always known me and always knew He would save/forgive me in time and impute Christ's righteousness to me.

Aside: Similarly, an person destined for hell has been and always is and will be hated. God cannot love (favor for greatest good) one He sends to hell as that is a contradiction and God does not contradict Himself.
Premise 1: God's agape love is favor for the greatest good
Premise 2: A person that God sends to hell is not for the greatest good of said person
Conclusion: God does not love those in hell (or going there)
 

Fastfredy0

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The Great Spirit is the concept of a life force, a Supreme being or god known as Wakan Tanka in Lakota, Gitche Manitou in Algonquian, and by other, specific names in a number Native American and First Nations cultures.
Also called an idol by Christians. The Muslim's have an analogous spirit. Perhaps they can be saved too?

Who are you to say this is not the same God we bow down to and give thanks for all His blessings.
I am no one. But the true God says, John 14:6 "Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. 7 If you had known Me, you would know My Father as well. From now on you do know Him and have seen Him.”

Eph. 2:11Therefore remember that formerly you who are Gentiles in the flesh and called uncircumcised by the so-called circumcision (that done in the body by human hands)— 12remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.…

thanks for your investment of time and patience with me ..... :yes
 

Hopeful

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The basis of communication with others is their understanding. "What it says" is avoiding the discussion.

Again, what does this mean: The death of Christ for those He tasted death for Heb 2:9 it delivered them from #1 Death, #2 the Devil, #3 Hell, #4 Gods Wrath. So how can we testify to the death of Christ and its accomplishments, f any for He tasted death for die in their sins and experience for eternity Gods Wrath ?

If you can't explain what you mean then it is by definition meaningless.
It looks like some error in typing, cutting, or pasting.
 

Hopeful

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I call EVERYONE unrighteous as I believe God when He says: Romans 3:10-12,Psalm 14:1-3,Psalm 53:1-3
We see those verses from differing perspectives.
I am happy for you. You've said several times that you and God as a team saved you. Congrats, if it is true that you were in part responsible (the cause) for your salvation then you can brag of your glory to God.
He can't force me to be saved, so there must have had some kind of cooperation from me.
That's a big "IF". The bible says NO ONE SEEKS GOD, so I conclude God reveals Himself to no one because they sought Him. Also, there is no report I am aware of a missionary going to places where the gospel has never been before and finding God has reveal Christ to a person. Missionaries have gone to thousands of such people ... perhaps you can relate a story of God revealing himself to that person personally.
Men will be judged on their consciences, not on their knowledge of the Lord.
It is written..."For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel." (Rom 2:14-16)

Well, he repented for that occasion. But using your proposed conditions of salvation it is conceivable that Peter told another lie and had, let's say a sudden heart attack and died before repenting for that lie and is in hell. Like, your doctrine of salvation is the LUCK OF THE DRAW to some extent. Hmmmm, what happens if one tells an unintentional lie or tells a lie and forgets about it. He never repents and goes to hell. Really sucks to have a bad memory. LOL
Peter repented of the lie...and received the gift of the Holy Ghost.
A power he didn't have at the time of the lie.
Another sin thereafter would have shown that his repentance was also a lie.
Certainly on the road to destruction.
Fortunately for Peter, his rebirth from the seed of God would have prevented him from bringing forth the fruit of the devil.
Hmmm, God looks down knows Joe has told a lie that He has not repented but knows Joe will repent next week. Does God decide to have Joe die now or wait a week for Joe to repent. How can we leverage this trait of God if we know God always will wait for a person to repent if He see it in that person's future ... ah, one can have eternal life by telling a lie and waiting a week to confess followed by another lie to be repented of the next week, and on and on for eternity (endless loop). (aside: ridiculous, but and interesting doctrine)
Your suppositions are a waste of your time.
Stick to what is written.
Just curious. When you say you never sin do you mean that anytime you did sin it does count as sin because you repented. (Aside: I'm astounded to meet a person who claims he never sins.... so just curious)
This is a derail. (threadwise)
Those reborn of God's seed cannot bring forth the fruit of the devil's seed.
Aside: So many rules of how one must perform in order to be saved. I may need to hire a theological lawyer to ensure I don't miss a disqualifying salvific rule.
Or, just truly, permanently, repent of sin: and get baptized in the name of Jesus Chris for the remission of past sins.
Then you will receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, (Acts 2:38), that can keep you from NOT knowing what you are doing.
 

Fastfredy0

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He can't force me to be saved, so there must have had some kind of cooperation from me.
That contradicts the idea of an all mighty God or your statement is a fallacy. I personally and staying with the premise that God is almighty .... you can stay with the premise that you are, when if comes to salvation, mightier that God.

Men will be judged on their consciences, not on their knowledge of the Lord.
Well, that blows up the idea of salvation by Faith for faith requires content/knowledge.


It is written..."For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel." (Rom 2:14-16)
Ah, the salvation by WORKS ALONE concept. Who needs Christ when I can DO IT MYSELF.


Peter repented of the lie...and received the gift of the Holy Ghost.
A power he didn't have at the time of the lie.
Another sin thereafter would have shown that his repentance was also a lie.
Certainly on the road to destruction.
Fortunately for Peter, his rebirth from the seed of God would have prevented him from bringing forth the fruit of the devil.
Ah, back to the doctrine of ALL CHRISTIANS NEVER SIN as contradicted by 1 John 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. Sort of sets up a CATCH 22 for you IMO.


Your suppositions are a waste of your time.
Stick to what is written.
True enough. My assumption was that Christians can sin based on Peter's denial of Christ. I'm still trying to understand your concept. Peter sinned but that must have been before he was saved. That does make my idea void.
This is bad news for the apostle Paul for we know he sinned and therefore, under your doctrine is hell. For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice (Romans 7:19).


Those reborn of God's seed cannot bring forth the fruit of the devil's seed.
Thank you for your answer.
 

Hopeful

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That contradicts the idea of an all mighty God or your statement is a fallacy. I personally and staying with the premise that God is almighty .... you can stay with the premise that you are, when if comes to salvation, mightier that God.
He is an almighty God who gives us free will.
Well, that blows up the idea of salvation by Faith for faith requires content/knowledge.
If salvation by faith is dependent on knowledge of...what?
Jesus?
If that were true, then nobody of the OT will be saved on the day of judgement.
Ah, the salvation by WORKS ALONE concept. Who needs Christ when I can DO IT MYSELF.
Do what "by myself"?
Have faith that God has given us all we need to choose Him over sin?
That includes the "choosing"...which is an act indeed.
Have faith that God has given those in commie' countries and jungles all they need to have a clear conscience?
Ah, back to the doctrine of ALL CHRISTIANS NEVER SIN as contradicted by 1 John 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. Sort of sets up a CATCH 22 for you IMO.
It is those who walk in darkness that can't say they have no sin.
They can't say they have fellowship with God either.
Christians walk in the light, and the blood of Jesus Christ has washed away all their past sins.
True enough. My assumption was that Christians can sin based on Peter's denial of Christ. I'm still trying to understand your concept. Peter sinned but that must have been before he was saved. That does make my idea void.
Nobody IS saved.
We will all be judged on the last day...after which we can say we are saved...or not.
Peter wasn't yet converted when he sinned.
This is bad news for the apostle Paul for we know he sinned and therefore, under your doctrine is hell. For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice (Romans 7:19).
Paul was referencing his time before his conversion, while still in the flesh.
Rom 7:5..."For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death."
Thank you for your answer.
OK.

Jesus conquered sin while in the flesh, and He has given us everything we need to do the same.
Thanks be to God !
 

for_his_glory

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Also called an idol by Christians. The Muslim's have an analogous spirit. Perhaps they can be saved too?


I am no one. But the true God says, John 14:6 "Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. 7 If you had known Me, you would know My Father as well. From now on you do know Him and have seen Him.”

Eph. 2:11Therefore remember that formerly you who are Gentiles in the flesh and called uncircumcised by the so-called circumcision (that done in the body by human hands)— 12remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.…

thanks for your investment of time and patience with me ..... :yes
What is also called an idol by Christians?

It's all by faith in the OT and the NT. Do you believe those in the OT before the coming of Messiah are not saved?

Do you believe one who has been a Muslim all their life can not come to Christ and be saved?
 

JLB

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I call EVERYONE unrighteous as I believe God when He says: Romans 3:10-12,Psalm 14:1-3,Psalm 53:1-3

  • Righteous people are those who practice righteousness.

Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 1 John 3:7


  • Unrighteous people are those who practice unrighteousness.



All unrighteous people whether Christian or not, will not inherit the kingdom of God.



Here is a snapshot of that Day —



Then He will also say to those on the left hand, Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’ “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Matthew 25:41-46



  • And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.




JLB
 

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Agreed. I don't know how this is relevant to the salvation of people who never heard of Christ.
Because you are looking at Jesus in the flesh and when you refer to Jesus, you only see him during his time in the flesh.
Christ is the Greek word for the Hebrew word we understand as Messiah. Moses spoke of the Messiah, as did Abraham before him. So in reality, many heard of the Christ well before Jesus tabernacled with us.
 

for_his_glory

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The word (Jesus) became flesh as Jesus was before the foundation of the world as the world was made by Him. No one is without excuse.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
John 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
John 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
John 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
John 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
John 1:8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
John 1:15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
 

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No, that is not the case. Everyone will die. (That's obvious since nobody from Biblical times, or even 150 years ago, is still alive.)

We will all die, but Christians will be resurrected. (or, as Paul describes them, "fallen asleep", as Paul wrote to the Corinthians: "Furthermore, those who have fallen asleep in Christ have also perished.")

The verb κοιμάω (koimaō) literally means “sleep,” but it is often used in the Bible as a euphemism for death when speaking of believers."
Yes it is the case. Christ death was to deliver from death Heb 2:14-15

14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
 

brightfame52

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They are delivered from the second death in all who will by faith believe in Him. There is Spiritual death and physical death being the second death cast into the lake of fire, Rev 20:11-15.
They are delivered from Spiritual Death[by new birth] which all men are born into. They are delivered from the 2 nd death, and they shall be delivered from physical death in the day of Christs second coming, and some will be delivered from physical death if they are alive when Jesus comes the 2 nd time. 1 Cor 15:51

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep[or die], but we shall all be changed,
 
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