Tasted Death for every Man !

[Hopeful]

Jesus Christ is the only way to salvation, and that Christianity is the only true religion or worldview.

• John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe [that would be anyone that never heard of Christ] stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
• John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
• Acts 4:12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men [it is obvious the knowledge of Christ has NOT been given to all men] by which we must be saved.
• 1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
• 1 John 5:12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.

Premise 1: scripture says: hoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
Premise 2: Many have never heard of Christ
Conclusion: There are exclusions. Christ did not taste (die for) death for everyone

Abraham never heard of Christ.
Neither did Isaac or Jacob, or Noah or Elijah or Able or Enoch.
They lived their lives doing what was written in their hearts.
His sacrifice is available to all men.
If you want to exclude men from salvation just because they never heard of Jesus...we disagree.

 

[Hopeful]

I have pointed out that through the works of the law no one is saved per scripture. You still maintain one can be saved by being a good person (clear conscience)

That makes it pretty tough for Abraham and Isaac then.

no relevant to salvation for everyone being possible
Irrelevant. It is what God commands, not rules of men.
Irrelevant. God law is written on everyone's heart per Romans 1

You misunderstand the scripture I sent.
There is more than the giving of things to Christ (though we give Him nothing) that would make me important to Christ. I am important because He is glorified by His giving to me, not His receiving from me. Have you not read that it is better to give than receive. (besides, as usual, you did not address the verses I gave as evidence of the truth of my statement. (Aside: just like you haven't given scripture saying men can be saved without Christ by have a clear conscience ... though I admit, you think you have)

 

[Fastfredy0]

Abraham never heard of Christ.
Neither did Isaac or Jacob, or Noah or Elijah or Able or Enoch.
They lived their lives doing what was written in their hearts.
His sacrifice is available to all men.

I am talking post Christ's incarnation (to keep it simple). All the verses I listed saying one cannot be saved without knowledge of Christ were written post incarnation.

There are NO verses saying one can be saved by having a clear conscience which is your contention.

 

[Hopeful]

I am talking post Christ's incarnation (to keep it simple). All the verses I listed saying one cannot be saved without knowledge of Christ were written post incarnation.

There are NO verses saying one can be saved by having a clear conscience which is your contention.

That is indeed my opinion, but I also know nobody can do it.
Very few anyway, as I believe Elijah, John the Baptist, and perhaps the prophet Saul never offended their consciences.

Who do you suppose Paul is referring to in Romans 2:14-16?
"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel." ?
If a man doesn't commit sin, he will be found innocent of sinning, at the last judgement.

 

[brightfame52]

Who are the every man of Heb 2:9 ? 2

Let us continue to look at this verse Heb 2:9 to determine who the all or every are, due to the context, we have looked at it to mean every sheep of His because of Heb 13:20

20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

Now since He was brought from the dead [after tasting death Heb 2:9] as the Great Shepherd of the Sheep, then its quite reasonable to conclude that is whom He tasted death for in Heb 2:9 which is collaborated from other scripture Jn 10:11,15 !

But lets again examine the context of the Book of Hebrews when it reads thusly Heb 9:28

28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

The phrase " offered to bear the sins of many" is equivalent to tasting death Heb 2:9, so since here in Heb 9:28 the tasting of death is for the many, hence its quite reasonable to conclude that the every man in Heb 2:9 are the Many, or simply He tasted death for all of the many !

The many here in Heb 9:28 is actually the many ' To Pollon "

οὕτως ὁ Χριστός ἅπαξ προσενεχθεὶς εἰς τὸ πολλῶν ἀνενεγκεῖν ἁμαρτίας ἐκ δευτέρου χωρὶς ἁμαρτίας ὀφθήσεται τοῖς αὐτὸν ἀπεκδεχομένοις εἰς σωτηρίαν

The definite article is present to specify a definite group that constitutes the many, which opposes all without exception. The word does however denote a great number that do constitute the many, such as Rev 7:9

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

The same no doubt as those of Rev 5:9

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

So the every man in Heb 2:9 is simply all or everyone of the Many, for once again the word pas means most definitely :

II.collectively
A.
some of all types

So all the many out of all types of kindred, tongue and people and nations ! Yet that does not mean everyone without exception !

 

[brightfame52]

If we would understand the ramifications of Christ having tasted death, we would understand that it could not have been for every man without exception. Heb 2:9

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

The word taste

1. to taste, to try the flavour of
2. to taste
   1. i.e. perceive the flavour of, partake of, enjoy
   2. to feel, make trial of, experience
3. to take food, eat, to take nourishment, eat

See He experienced death in behalf of every man He died for. The death He experienced is the death they incurred as the wages of their sins Rom 6:23

23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Rom 5:12

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

So these whom He tasted / experience death on their behalf, are fully exonerated/discharged from having to experience it for themselves, as the wages for their sins. Death for them has been abolished 2 Tim 1:10

10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

Thats a key element in constituting Him Our Saviour, abolishing death for us by tasting death for us.

Its not possible for Christ to have tasted death for an individual and it didn't for that individual abolish death. That would be a detriment to His accomplishment and Him being the Saviour.

Many will have to go into the second death Rev 21:8

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death

Therefore Christ could not have tasted death and abolished death on their behalf.60

 

[for_his_glory]

If we would understand the ramifications of Christ having tasted death, we would understand that it could not have been for every man without exception. Heb 2:9

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

The word taste

1. to taste, to try the flavour of
2. to taste
   1. i.e. perceive the flavour of, partake of, enjoy
   2. to feel, make trial of, experience
3. to take food, eat, to take nourishment, eat

See He experienced death in behalf of every man He died for. The death He experienced is the death they incurred as the wages of their sins Rom 6:23

23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Rom 5:12

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

So these whom He tasted / experience death on their behalf, are fully exonerated/discharged from having to experience it for themselves, as the wages for their sins. Death for them has been abolished 2 Tim 1:10

10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

Thats a key element in constituting Him Our Saviour, abolishing death for us by tasting death for us.

Its not possible for Christ to have tasted death for an individual and it didn't for that individual abolish death. That would be a detriment to His accomplishment and Him being the Saviour.

Many will have to go into the second death Rev 21:8

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death

Therefore Christ could not have tasted death and abolished death on their behalf.60

Do you not believe that everyone could turn back to God by the grace He gave us through faith that is Christ Jesus?

We know the reality is that not everyone will come to Christ, but yet:

2Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Peter 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Peter 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Not everyone will believe for a new heaven and a new earth where righteousness will dwell within it.

 

[brightfame52]

Do you not believe that everyone could turn back to God by the grace He gave us through faith that is Christ Jesus?

We know the reality is that not everyone will come to Christ, but yet:

2Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Peter 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Peter 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Not everyone will believe for a new heaven and a new earth where righteousness will dwell within it.

You didn't understand a thing I said did you ?

 

[for_his_glory]

You didn't understand a thing I said did you ?

Yes I did and that is why I replied the way I did.

Psalms 34:8 O taste and see that the LORD is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in him.

Blessed is the man that believes the Lord is good as they have tasted (proven to themselves) of God's grace.


Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Jesus, being the founder of our salvation tasted death for all who will believe in Him by faith that comes by God's grace. All who will believe will have eternal life, because Jesus paid the debt for our sins.

Everyone is given a chance to come to Him as Jesus will never turn a deaf ear towards a heart of repentance.

If you do not believe that Christ tasted death for every person then you are sitting under a very deceptive teaching.

 

[brightfame52]

Yes I did and that is why I replied the way I did.

Psalms 34:8 O taste and see that the LORD is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in him.

Blessed is the man that believes the Lord is good as they have tasted (proven to themselves) of God's grace.


Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Jesus, being the founder of our salvation tasted death for all who will believe in Him by faith that comes by God's grace. All who will believe will have eternal life, because Jesus paid the debt for our sins.

Everyone is given a chance to come to Him as Jesus will never turn a deaf ear towards a heart of repentance.

If you do not believe that Christ tasted death for every person then you are sitting under a very deceptive teaching.

It sure doesnt seem like it. Describe to me what my point was please.

 

[for_his_glory]

It sure doesnt seem like it. Describe to me what my point was please.

Your point is Calvinistic which does not line up with scripture. Why do you refute John 3:16-17?

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Pretty much says that Jesus died for all who will believe in Him. Why do you think Christ only tasted death for a few people, but not all? Those who are elected of God are those who have turned back to Him through a heart of repentance. Only God knows from the foundation of the world who are His own.

 

[DancesWithGnostics]

"This subject of OSAS is no longer allowed to be argued, debated or even discussed.
Since way too many rescources are being used by this one subject we have to cut it off completely.
Too many people are losing their composure when discussing this topic. So in the interest of all, any debate of Calvinism vx Arminianism tenants of faith are no longer going to be allowed to be discussed"

That is from a sticky under Theology. Nevertheless, I smell Calvinism all the time.

 

[for_his_glory]

"This subject of OSAS is no longer allowed to be argued, debated or even discussed.
Since way too many rescources are being used by this one subject we have to cut it off completely.
Too many people are losing their composure when discussing this topic. So in the interest of all, any debate of Calvinism vx Arminianism tenants of faith are no longer going to be allowed to be discussed"

That is from a sticky under Theology. Nevertheless, I smell Calvinism all the time.

OSAS is not being taught in this thread, but what is being taught is the false Calvinistic doctrine of predestination of God's elect. This is what we are refuting with scripture as we discuss this topic. We do have a few Calvinist that are members and we do discuss with them of what they believe even of we are in disagreement with them. Not only Calvinist, but anyone from a different belief.

I would suggest in the future if you suspect something that is not allowed to be discussed no longer to make a report of it as in what thread and what post number so the staff can take a look at it. This way there will be no arguments among the members that causes division.

Thank you and God bless

 

[DancesWithGnostics]

ok

 

[brightfame52]

Your point is Calvinistic which does not line up with scripture. Why do you refute John 3:16-17?

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Pretty much says that Jesus died for all who will believe in Him. Why do you think Christ only tasted death for a few people, but not all? Those who are elected of God are those who have turned back to Him through a heart of repentance. Only God knows from the foundation of the world who are His own.

So its obvious you sticking to the error that Christ tasted death for all mankind, including them who go to hell for their sins. Thats means by default you believe God is unjust and guilty of double jeopardy. That means He's punishing people twice for the same crimes, once in Christ their Surety and again in themselves.

 

[for_his_glory]

So its obvious you sticking to the error that Christ tasted death for all mankind, including them who go to hell for their sins. Thats means by default you believe God is unjust and guilty of double jeopardy. That means He's punishing people twice for the same crimes, once in Christ their Surety and again in themselves.

God has always given man a chance to repent and turn back to Him, beginning with Adam and Eve. Please show me scripture where He says He does not give everyone a chance. You for some reason reject what Jesus has said in John 3:16-17.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
John 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
John 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
John 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 

[for_his_glory]

brightfame52 what you are teaching is the false doctrine of "Limited Atonement" that is a deceptive teaching of John Calvin. Here is a good website that explains this, but I only copied part of it as it's to long for this thread, but I encourage all to go read it.

Jesus Christ Died For All

Jesus Christ Died For All

www.jesusisprecious.org

Jesus Christ Died For All

by David J. Stewart | May 2016

Revelation 22:17, “And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come.
And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.”

The Holy Bible plainly teaches that Jesus Christ DIED FOR ALL MANKIND, not just a select few people (i.e., the saints). Charles H. Spurgeon (1834-1892) was London's mightiest Baptist preacher, who is still admired and followed today worldwide by many Christians for his multitude of printed books, sermons and writings. Although mostly correct in his doctrines, one major flaw in Spurgeon's theology was his denial that Christ died for all men. This heresy of John Calvin (1509-1564) is known as “Limited Atonement.” This false doctrine is part of the 5-fold satanic lie of “Calvinism.”

These devil doctrines are all progressive. That is, one heresy begats another out of necessity. The false religious system of Calvinism is summed up with the acronym: T-U-L-I-P. The first is Total Depravity, teaching that man is so wicked that apart from God's divine intervention, no man would ever come to the Lord for salvation. Hence, the next heresy is Unconditional Election, which teaches basically that God chooses who will be saved. Since God “chooses” who will be saved, there must be a predetermined number of people. This is called “Limited Atonement.” Consequently, those select few whom God has chosen must be forced to get saved. This is called Irresistible Grace. And then, finally, since God chooses and forces a person to be saved (according to John Calvin), God will do what it takes to make those select few saints Persevere in holy living. From beginning to end, Calvinism is of the Devil.

One thing that John Calvin ignores is man's “freewill” (which God has given to every human being). Humans are not slaves. If Calvinism were true, then it would mean God overrides man's freewill, forcing Himself upon humanity, selectively deciding who gets saved and who doesn't. The Bible is very clear that God reaches out to “ALL MEN” to be saved, inviting them to believe the Gospel.

Here are several Scriptures which mention “all men” concerning salvation:

John 1:7, “The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.”

John 12:32, “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.”

1st John 2:2, “And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”

Acts 17:30, “And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent.”

Romans 5:18, “Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.”

Titus 2:11, “For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men.”

2nd Corinthians 5:14, “For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead.”

Why would God's grace appear to “all men,” if only a few are chosen for salvation? Obviously, that wouldn't make any sense! Why would God command “all men” to repent if only a select few elect have been chosen? As you just read in John 12:32, Jesus foretold that after His resurrection and ascension into Heaven, He would draw “all men” unto Himself by the Holy Spirit. These are just but a few Scriptures, which plainly teach us that Christ died for “all men.”

Dr. Paul Reiter (1929-2013), professor at Appalachian Bible College for 35 years, has clearly and simply summarized the Scriptural teaching on this issue. FOR WHOM DID CHRIST DIE? HE DIED...

For all (1st Timothy 2:6; Isaiah 53:6).
For every man (Hebrews 2:9).
For the world (John 3:16).
For the sins of the whole world (1st John 2:2).
For the ungodly (Romans 5:6).
For false teachers (2nd Peter 2:1).
For many (Matthew 20:28).
For Israel (John 11:50-51).
For the Church (Ephesians 5:25).
For “me” (Galatians 2:20).
*From unpublished lecture notes written by Dr. Paul Reiter, former professor at Appalachian Bible College, Bradley, West Virginia.

 

[Fastfredy0]

From beginning to end, Calvinism is of the Devil.

From beginning to end, NON-Calvinism is of the Devil. (I can also make ridiculous, unfounded, unfeeling statements too.) But, let's evaluate your statement critically.
Premise 1: Calvinism believes Christ is God
Premise 2: For_his_glory stated that "Calvinism is of the devil"
Conclusion: For_his_glory thinks that the statement that Christ is the Son of God is of the devil for that is what Calvinism teaches and Calvinism is of the devil
PLEASE, think before you make broad brush statements! It seems an administrator would be more considerate of the beliefs of other denominations and no author such pejoratives. If you think a doctrine is false, state why and leave it at that. Please don't tell me and others on this forum that our doctrine is of the devil ... don't troll us.

Please show me scripture where He says He does not give everyone a chance.

Premise 1: Salvific faith today requires faith in CHRIST. John 3:18 Whoever believes and has decided to trust in Him [as personal Savior and Lord] is not judged [for this one, there is no judgment, no rejection, no condemnation]; but the one who does not believe [and has decided to reject Him as personal Savior and Lord] is judged already [that one has been convicted and sentenced], because he has not believed and trusted in the name of the [One and] only begotten Son of God [the One who is truly unique, the only One of His kind, the One who alone can save him]. (Other verses confirm the need of knowledge of Christ for salvation, but one is enough)
Premise 2: Billions of people never of Christ and are dead. (this is beyond doubt, one can google it and find organizations attesting to this fact ... joshuaproject.net/resources/articles/has_everyone_heardjoshuaproject.net/resources/articles/has_everyone_heard)
Conclusion: God does not give everyone a chance to be saved. This is another example of non-calvinist defective doctrine

 

[brightfame52]

God has always given man a chance to repent and turn back to Him, beginning with Adam and Eve. Please show me scripture where He says He does not give everyone a chance. You for some reason reject what Jesus has said in John 3:16-17.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
John 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
John 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
John 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Again you must default to the idea that God is unjust because He has already punished Christ for ones sins, yet because of their sinfulness He will yet punish them again for the same sinfulness.

 

[for_his_glory]

Again you must default to the idea that God is unjust because He has already punished Christ for ones sins, yet because of their sinfulness He will yet punish them again for the same sinfulness.

God is righteous in all His judgements. It is you (Calvinism) that refutes all the scriptures that say Jesus died for all. The teaching of Limited Atonement comes against what has already been written in the scriptures that many have given you.

It's your freewill choice to believe what John Calvin taught, or what Jesus has already said. I will believe Jesus.