Tasted Death for every Man !

[daninthelionsden]

Well, if correct, that would make the following statement true.


DanielGarneau ... you don't happen to have any theologian that you know of that has proposed such a thing? Like, I've never heard this theory before.

Aside: I still love the idea of universalism. I don't believe it, but that too would mean: He has always given everyone an opportunity to repent and turn back to Him.

The Word says even upon His return the lost will try to fight Him and He will destroy His enemies. I don't know what universalism is ,but I don't believe in an "all dogs go to heaven" theology. I just believe everyone who never heard or were taught falsely might get one last chance to obey. I don't go by the saying "seeing is believing", but rather "believing is obeying".

 

[brightfame52]

Now lets look at Vs 14 in understanding who Christ tasted death for

14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

No doubt these are the children referred to in Vs 13

13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

Also these children correspond to the many sons in Vs 10

10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

 

[for_his_glory]

This is a contradiction. You can't say you are fallible and your spirit finds truth.
We are all fallible. But I know logic and what it is to be rational. Thus the statement: People without faith in Christ have an opportunity to be saved. THIS IS NOT RATIONAL. Your correct, God is not a God of confusion; He is rational. He does not you have be saved by faith in Christ even though you have never heard of Christ to those born in the last 2000 years.

There is no contradiction as I am fallible as no one could ever exhaust the teachings the Bible contains. It's not my spirit that teaches me, but by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit within me teaches me.

This is not denominational. It is being rational. "A" cannot be not "A". You can't be save by knowledge of Christ and not heard of Christ. Every Christian denomination believes you are saved by faith in Christ; no Christian denomination believes you are saved by not knowing Christ ... but that is what you propose. Show the scripture where one is saved that does NOT know Christ .. please.

Please show me in scripture where a rational mind (carnal logic) seeks truth as Romans 8:5-10 teaches about the carnal mind.

Do you believe the Spirit of God can not speak to the heart where there is no one to preach the Gospel? Noah and Abraham are a good example of that as God spoke to them before there was any written word, so why could not God do the same to those who have not been reached with the Gospel?

How did all those before Christ become saved? I realize faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God, which IMO could be literally hearing God speak to your heart, or hearing the word actually preached to you.

I've heard many reports where Missionaries have gone into hidden remote villages and the people have told them they heard of Jesus, but knew nothing about Him and were glad that the word of God came to them. Then you have remote villages that attack and kill making martyr's of those who try and bring the Gospel to them. None of us knows what is in the heart of a person whether they felt God drawing them to Him, heard Him speak to them or flat our rejected His drawing.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Everyone will have a chance to hear before Christ returns as the Gospel has reached every nation and continues to do so, but yet many reject what they can not understand.

 

[rogerg]

Your theory that people are saved, free of God’s wrath, before they hear and believe the Gospel, is unbiblical.


It makes a mockery of the price so many have paid to reach the lost throughout the world with the Gospel, as well as the millions of martyrs who refused to renounce Him when faced with persecution, torture and death.


It disregards the teachings of Christ and the Apostles concerning obeying the Lord, and His commandments to remain in Christ.

On the contrary, they who are able "hear" and "believe" (the true Gospel) can only do so BECAUSE they first were saved -- that's the only way for it to happen: for only God can save. If they're not first saved, the Gospel will have no meaning, credibility, nor find a place within their hearts. Reaching the "lost" is to teach of Christ, but does not cause salvation -- but that's solely God's job, and neither theirs's nor ours's. After becoming saved, and even before having "heard" the true Gospel, salvation can manifest itself in a multitude of ways. Just a few of them would be: by a new desire to hear about the Gospel, by a desire to learn about Christ, by a growing concern for their eternal condition, ETC. These would lead them to the Bible, which would lead to finding the Gospel, which would lead to a correct knowledge and faith in Christ as the Savior. Their faith, spiritual wisdom, and understanding will grow, but their salvation would have already been accomplished, possibly even without them realizing it at the time.

Also, if anyone happens to notice that my reply messed anything up please let me know - but I really hope not. Thx

 

[for_his_glory]

I see a way that all have one last opportunity to believe. Whether they were brought up in error or in ignorance, when Christ returns, each one has one last chance to obey. When He returns, everyone who has ever lived will be yanked out of their graves and either "every knee shall bow and every tongue confess" or off to the pit they go. When Thomas was given another chance he bowed his knee and said "My Lord and my God." When He returns, it will be witnessed all over the world at the same time and all through time, those that lived, have that chance. Then WHOSOEVER will be for all to have that chance to believe. It is said He will call even those in the wilderness.

The way I read and understand it is that the door of salvation will be closed when Christ returns on the last day according to Matthew 24:29-31. There are no second chances as those who are in the grave and alive at His coming that have rejected God and His Son Christ Jesus will have already been judged as it is not God that has damned them, but they have damned themselves as their names are not found written in the Lambs book of life, John 5:28-29; 6:39-40; Rev 20:11-15.

 

[for_his_glory]

By Grace Through Faith are those who will accept God's free gift of grace on this side of the cross that whosoever will believe and come to Christ will be saved, Ephesians 2:1-10.

I've been digging deeper into this about Christ tasting death for everyone and found that many believe in "Inclusivism", which is rarely taught. It's a the belief that salvation is only through Christ Jesus, but that there may be persons who are saved without knowing it. They are redeemed by the person and work of a Christ they do not consciously embrace. Simply put, Jesus may save some who never hear of Him.

I can not agree with this as it goes against Romans 1:18-23. Hosea 4:6-7 God says His people are destroyed for lack of knowledge (Not only the Israelites). As the multitude increased they continue to sin against Him, therefore God rejects them and their children throughout all the generations who do not come back to Him as they are without excuse as the word of God has gone out into every nation on every continent , Matthew 24:14.

All have heard the name of God from every generation from the beginning of man being created, but yet many do not seek to know Him and they will stand before the Lord on judgement day without excuse. It's like an atheist for example, they know the name of God and even Christ Jesus, but claim they do not exist. Why, because like everyone else they have never sought after Him.

2 Chronicles 7:14; John 3:16; Acts 2:37-39 God gives everyone a chance to repent and turn back to Him, but many do not seek His face as they have conformed themselves to the lusts of this world, forgetting what God has already taught by His Prophets and Disciples.

God's word has always gone forth out into the world and no one is without excuse of not hearing. General revelation, or sometimes called natural revelation, consist of what God has revealed of Himself via the natural world and moral conscience as we read in Romans 1:20.

 

[for_his_glory]

On the contrary, they who are able "hear" and "believe" (the true Gospel) can only do so BECAUSE they first were saved -- that's the only way for it to happen: for only God can save. If they're not first saved, the Gospel will have no meaning, credibility, nor find a place within their hearts. Reaching the "lost" is to teach of Christ, but does not cause salvation -- but that's solely God's job, and neither theirs's nor ours's. After becoming saved, and even before having "heard" the true Gospel, salvation can manifest itself in a multitude of ways. Just a few of them would be: by a new desire to hear about the Gospel, by a desire to learn about Christ, by a growing concern for their eternal condition, ETC. These would lead them to the Bible, which would lead to finding the Gospel, which would lead to a correct knowledge and faith in Christ as the Savior. Their faith, spiritual wisdom, and understanding will grow, but their salvation would have already been accomplished, possibly even without them realizing it at the time.

Also, if anyone happens to notice that my reply messed anything up please let me know - but I really hope not. Thx

What you are teaching is Inclusivism which comes against scripture.


There are five requirements to Salvation

1. Confession - Acts 2:21; Romans 10:9, 10
2. Repentance - Mark 1:14, 15
3. Faith - John 3:14-18
4. Regeneration - John 3:3-8
5. Holy Scripture - 2 Timothy 3:15

No one is saved unless they endure until the end of either their own life or until the coming of Christ on the last day.
Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

 

[Fastfredy0]

This is not denominational. It is being rational. "A" cannot be not "A". You can't be save by knowledge of Christ and not heard of Christ. Every Christian denomination believes you are saved by faith in Christ; no Christian denomination believes you are saved by not knowing Christ ... but that is what you propose. Show the scripture where one is saved that does NOT know Christ .. please.

You didn't another my question. There is no scripture telling how one is saved without hearing of Christ. We both know that. (not talking about O.T. saints)
Thus your statement: "He has always given everyone an opportunity to repent and turn back to Him" is either FALSE. (or at best an speculation to validate the belief that because God loves everyone without exception; therefore by default, He must provide another gospel to save those who have never heard of Christ.)

Please show me in scripture where a rational mind (carnal logic) seeks truth as Romans 8:5-10 teaches about the carnal mind.

Your question conflates a 'rational mind' with 'carnal logic'. This is a false premise.
Carnal is defined as "relating to or given to crude bodily pleasures and appetites gluttony and other carnal activities."
Rational is based on or in accordance with reason or logic.

We know God is rational. If He is not then we cannot understand Him. We know God is not carnal. Therefore, conflating the terms 'carnal' and 'rational' is not reasonable (rational). Therefore, your question needs to be reworded.
Aside: A rational mind is one in sync with truth by definition. It is rational to believe God for He is truth. Our sin (carnal) nature causes us to not seek God and this is not rational. It is wrong to conflate 'rational' and 'carnal'. (Apples and oranges)
Aside: Just because we are carnal does not mean we cannot be rational at times. It is rational to think 1+1=2. All people, irregardless of their cardinality can be rational at times. It is wrong to conflate 'rational' and 'carnal'. (Apples and oranges)

Do you believe the Spirit of God can not speak to the heart where there is no one to preach the Gospel?

Yes, but not in a way that one can be saved. I believe God speaks to almost everyone to give them an idea of 'right and wrong' (Romans 2:14). God tells everyone that He exists (Romans 1:20).
But again, you avoid your statement: "He has always given everyone an opportunity to repent and turn back to Him". There is no scripture to support your statement. You infer there is another gospel than Paul's by which those who never heard of Christ are saved. You are deflecting again; we are talking about 'hearing of Christ that leads to salvation' and not 'knowing God exists'.

Noah and Abraham are a good example of that as God spoke to them before there was any written word, so why could not God do the same to those who have not been reached with the Gospel?

God is all powerful. Of course He could do something to save those that have not heard the gospel. But He has not. There is the gospel of Paul saying we are saved by faith and Christ and Paul said: Galatians 1:8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we [originally] preached to you, let him be condemned to destruction!
You are proposing another gospel (which you can't define) and Paul warns against this. You are grasping at straws again. Tell me of this OTHER GOSPEL to save men. Perhaps it is more efficient than Paul's gospel. You said God gives everyone a opportunity to repent and turn to him ... please, please, please tell us how that works, give us the specifics.
GIVE ME THE GOSPEL according to for_his_glory whereby these people are saved. Example: A person who has never heard of Christ can be saved if he throw to pebbles over his shoulder as an act of faith.

How did all those before Christ become saved?

Not needed to prove/disprove your statement: "He has always given everyone an opportunity to repent and turn back to Him". As we are more familiar with how people are saved today, we can talk more effectively with this knowledge in regard to your statement: "He has always given everyone an opportunity to repent and turn back to Him".

I realize faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God, which IMO could be literally hearing God speak to your heart, or hearing the word actually preached to you.

Agreed.

I've heard many reports where Missionaries have gone into hidden remote villages and the people have told them they heard of Jesus, but knew nothing about Him and were glad that the word of God came to them. Then you have remote villages that attack and kill making martyr's of those who try and bring the Gospel to them.

... and I heard reports from the Mormons that Christ came to North America. But ignoring the credulity of the missionaries story; and for the sake of argument, I concede these people have heard from of Christ. But we KNOW that many people are dead that never heard of Christ. You said: "He has always given everyone an opportunity to repent and turn back to Him", so referring to people that heard of Christ does not address your statement.

None of us knows what is in the heart of a person whether they felt God drawing them to Him, heard Him speak to them or flat our rejected His drawing.

We KNOW there are many people who have NEVER heard of Christ. We know we are saved by faith in Christ. Therefore, we know you statement ""He has always given everyone an opportunity to repent and turn back to Him" is false. You deny indisputable truth because it contradicts your understanding of God methods that you have worked so hard to learn from your studies. (aside: your knowledge of God is superior)

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

And the evidence is indisputable that the Father has not drawn men who have not heard of Christ in a way that leads to salvation ... unless one invents a new gospel which Paul warns against.

It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Agreed. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned. Notice the prerequisite; EVERY MAN THE HATH HEARD. Since many men have not heard they will NOT come to him. Thus your statement: "He has always given everyone an opportunity to repent and turn back to Him" is contrary to scripture. Scripture says YOU HAVE TO HEAR to be saved; you say we that there is some mysterious way people that have not heard the salvific gospel from men hear it from God, but present only mystical, vague innuendos of evidence.

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

The evidence is indisputable. People have died and not heard of Christ. Since this is necessary for salvation, our statement: "He has always given everyone an opportunity to repent and turn back to Him" is false. The verse says "shall be", which is future tense so is not relevant to those who are dead a never heard of Christ.

 

[rogerg]

ow do you explain the definition of the word "whosoever" in John 3:16?

I understand it to mean that Christ died for all the sins of mankind, but it is up to mankind to receive God's free gift of grace through faith that is Christ Jesus in whom is our faith we trust in and transforms us through the Spiritual rebirth from above, John 3:5-7. Remember, faith comes by hearing the word and to those who knock on the door Christ will open it before them and receive them into the kingdom of God, Romans 10:17; Matthew 7:7-8.
God is no respecter to person as all can come before Him and receive His free gift of grace. Seek and ye shall find, knock and the door shall be opened. It's God that calls us back to Him by His Holy Spirit, but many refuse to answer His calling them. We can not work towards salvation as it's a free gift from God, Ephesians 2:8-9.
This I can agree with as it only applies to those who seek and find Him.
The reference in Ephesians 1:1-14 is about Spiritual blessings in Christ through the Spiritual rebirth from above as those by faith in Christ (Christ being the plan of God's salvation before the foundation of the world) have been adopted into His family inheriting the kingdom of God, John 3:3.

Look at vs. 4 in Ephesians 1, God predestined us before the foundation of the world that we would be His elect as being holy and blameless before Him. Other words we had no sin until sin became known and we all fell short of God's glory. Jesus was/is God's plan of salvation before the foundation of the world as it is by faith, not the law that saves us. Unfortunitly not everyone has or will come to faith in Him.

"How do you explain the definition of the word "whosoever" in John 3:16?"
I understand "whosoever" to mean those who do believe but not that it means everyone can. It does not address the question of who will become a "whosoever".

"I understand it to mean that Christ died for all the sins of mankind, but it is up to mankind to receive God's free gift of grace through faith that is Christ Jesus in whom is our faith we trust in and transforms us through the Spiritual rebirth from above, John 3:5-7"

If Christ died paid for the sin of mankind, then all mankind sins MUST be paid, otherwise, something is wrong because it would be double jeopardy: if Christ paid, yet those who refused or wouldn't "receive" it also have to pay, that would mean two payments for the same sin would be necessary. To be correct legally, only one or the other payment should be required, not both. We know that all who are not covered under/by Christ's offering will be judged and punished, so that tells us that Christ could not have paid for the sins of all mankind. If it is truly a "free gift", (with which I totally agree) then why would it have to be "received" to acquire it ? To me, a gift can't be a gift until it is fully and completely in the hands of its respective recipient, and not under the giver's control-- only then is it truly a gift.

To receive a "faith in Christ" is actually a gift from God that is a by-product of salvation not the cause of it.

Sorry, I don't understand your point regarding John 3:5- 7. please clarify.

"The reference in "Ephesians 1:1-14 is about Spiritual blessings in Christ through the Spiritual rebirth from above as those by faith in Christ"

Actuality I think it says "faith of Christ"; that is, Christ's faith, anyway, it probably nets out the same-- we are saved by the faith that resides within Christ Himself. Christ ALONE was completely faithful to the prime directive given Him by the Father. Our faith, a faith in Christ, earns us nothing in God's eyes regarding salvation as it was imparted unto us as a part of the gift. it is only Christ's faith that counts. By the faith OF Jesus Christ we are given faith IN Jesus Christ.
Please observe:

[Gal 2:16 KJV]
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

"Seek and ye shall find, knock and the door shall be opened. It's God that calls us back to Him by His Holy Spirit, but many refuse to answer His calling them. We can not work towards salvation as it's a free gift from God"

This part may be a little voluminous, but I think it essential nevertheless.

Respectfully, I believe a review of what the Bible instructs for its interpretation would be helpful – an examination of a few of the more important rules it defines. In ignoring them, we run a significant risk of coming to an incorrect understanding. First and foremost, God wrote the Bible as one integrated book which must be approached as such. Additionally, we are informed that:

[2Pe 1:19-20 KJV] 19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

The above informs that all pertinent verses throughout the Bible must be examined and harmonized to find and understand the doctrine God intends to convey. God often does not include all relevant information in one verse, one chapter, one book. So, to form a coherent conclusion from one or two verses can be very misleading and dangerous.

[1Co 2:13 KJV] 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

This verse again informs that all relevant verses should be examined, correlated, and harmonized, and further, each contains a spiritual component. We should seek the spiritual aspect of God's intent.

More directions exist within the Bible, but I think these will suffice for the sake of your post. The takeaway is that we will need to look at other verses to comprehend the intent of the ones you've quoted.

So, in addition to Matt 7:7 &7:8, we should also review Luke 11:1 & 11:9 and Phi 2:13

[Mat 7:7-8 KJV]

7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

[Luk 11:9, 11:1 KJV]

9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.

This verse mimics exactly the teaching in Matt 7:7 & 7:8; however, 11:1 further clarifies God's intention:

1 And it came to pass, that, as he was praying in a certain place, when he ceased, one of his disciples said unto him, Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples. ...

Luke 11:1 adds to that which was taught in Matt 7:7 &8 and Luke 1:9. Christ's "disciples," were those spoken to by Christ who were ALREADY saved, so salvation was not His point.

11:9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.

Matt 7:7 & 8 and Luke 11:9 do not teach that God honors someone's demand for salvation. In the case of this verse, the salvation of those to whom He was speaking was already established (per 11:1).

Christ alone is the Savior who saves those chosen by God: an entirely different proposition than to demand it (which demand I perceive as the crux of your point).

[Phl 2:13 KJV]

13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.

The proceeding verse informs that whether realized or not, whether desired or not, that God has decreed He will lead those He saves into "ask" (ing), into "seek," (ing) into "knock" (ing) in order to grow their faith unto the fullness of the knowledge of Christ, though on the surface, it may seem to have been motivated by themselves.

Only those who will choose to "ask," "seek," or "knock" are they whom God first puts the Holy Spirit into their hearts and minds. In other words, they do it not to become saved, but as a result of having been saved.
This concept is that which underlies verses Matt 7:7 – 8

"Look at vs. 4 in Ephesians 1, God predestined us before the foundation of the world that we would be His elect as being holy and blameless before Him. Other words we had no sin until sin became known and we all fell short of God's glory. Jesus was/is God's plan of salvation before the foundation of the world as it is by faith, not the law that saves us. Unfortunitly not everyone has or will come to faith in Him."

If I've understood you correctly, I would have to disagree. I think the "predestined" relates to forgiveness bestowed upon some after the sin of Adam and Eve occurred, not before. My understanding is that the "foundation of the world" being referred to is the new world, the new heaven, new earth, new Jerusalem (new Holy City) to come, not those of this world. They were formed by God in the heavenly when Christ's offering on the cross was successfully completed and will replace those of this world. Had Christ not been successful (not possible), then that could never have transpired.

Hope this makes sense. Questions, disagreements, please let me know - thx

 

[Fastfredy0]

If Christ died paid for the sin of mankind, then all mankind sins MUST be paid, otherwise, something is wrong because it would be double jeopardy: if Christ paid, yet those who refused or wouldn't "receive" it also have to pay, that would mean two payments

Hey. To help you communicate on here remember you can make multiple quotes. For example, I went to your post, high lighted the text seen above and hit REPLY which brought the text I high lighted into my 'composition box' ...

Next, I will go to your post again and high light the first 3 words of the your post and hit reply again. Those 3 words will appear where ever I leave my cursor in my composition box.

If Christ died

So, this way you can address part of a person post ... then a 2nd part .. and so on... keep trying, you will get it.

 

[daninthelionsden]

The way I read and understand it is that the door of salvation will be closed when Christ returns on the last day according to Matthew 24:29-31. There are no second chances as those who are in the grave and alive at His coming that have rejected God and His Son Christ Jesus will have already been judged as it is not God that has damned them, but they have damned themselves as their names are not found written in the Lambs book of life, John 5:28-29; 6:39-40; Rev 20:11-15.

The ones I'm thinking of, include the babes/children who died through sickness/war/disease/crime/accident. I don't believe the rams go to the Kingdom, but rather the sheep. I would think our Lord knows who would respond to "Faith cometh by hearing". If they never heard, then how could they hear His voice? Christ said "the Kingdom is full of such as these" when He was surrounded by children.
I know one thing for sure is that we will all know on that Last Day and I'll be good either way it rolls. I'll keep my eyes on Him and let Him decide the wheat and the chaff. I don't have a fixed in stone opinion on this matter as I never really discussed it before though I have wondered about it all.

 

[rogerg]

What you are teaching is Inclusivism which comes against scripture.


There are five requirements to Salvation

1. Confession - Acts 2:21; Romans 10:9, 10
2. Repentance - Mark 1:14, 15
3. Faith - John 3:14-18
4. Regeneration - John 3:3-8
5. Holy Scripture - 2 Timothy 3:15

No one is saved unless they endure until the end of either their own life or until the coming of Christ on the last day.
Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

[Act 13:48 KJV] 48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Please notice that it doesn't say "and as many as believed were ordained to eternal life". It says "as many as were ordained to eternal life believed". I think this means that first-and-foremost, comes having been ordained by God individually to eternal life as prerequisite to, and motivation for, the above. Ordination to eternal life first, all belief/actions resulting from that second. But just to expound a little further, all who were ordained at some point call (put a name upon) the Lord. This is a result of being ordained. Those ordained are alone those who will become saved.
I'll try to reply to your five points above in the next day or two. thx.

 

[rogerg]

So, this way you can address part of a person post ... then a 2nd part .. and so on... keep trying, you will get it.

Thanks Fastfredy0, I'm thinking about doing it that way but don't want to take any chances for now.
If I do it wrong again, they'll be a mob in front of my door with pitchforks and torches and I wouldn't blame them (kidding)

 

[Butch5]

The writer of Hebrews wrote Heb 2:9

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Now honestly, did the writer write here that Christ tasted death for all mankind without exception here ? Nope he did not. In the original man isnt in the verse:

τὸν δὲ βραχύ τι παρ᾽ ἀγγέλους ἠλαττωμένον βλέπομεν Ἰησοῦν διὰ τὸ πάθημα τοῦ θανάτου δόξῃ καὶ τιμῇ ἐστεφανωμένον ὅπως χάριτι θεοῦ ὑπὲρ παντὸς γεύσηται θανάτου

Man was added by the translators. The word pas can refer to all the whole, the sum total of all the group intended. Context is important n determining the group that the writer has in mind. Lets look at the very next verse 10

10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Bingo, its the many sons that e suffered and died for, or tasted death for, The word many polys:

many, much, large, many, numerous, great

He tasted death for many Sons, a great number of them, everyone of them. This is important,, because later in the same epistle the writer uses the adjective many again to denote who He tasted death for Heb 9:28

So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

See to taste death back in Heb 2:9 is the exact same thing as " to bear the sins of many;" again, the many Sons of vs 10, everyone of the sons is who He tasted death for, not all of mankind without exception.

See Isa 53:11

He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

The context is important, I agree. However, instead of looking at the next verse, let's look at the previous verses.

5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.
6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, (Heb. 2:5-9 KJV)

The context is all of mankind. "What is man". God made man a little lower than the angles, crowned him with honor, and set him over creation. God put man over creation but we don't see that now. Jesus came to rectify that situation.

 

[for_his_glory]

"How do you explain the definition of the word "whosoever" in John 3:16?"
I understand "whosoever" to mean those who do believe but not that it means everyone can. It does not address the question of who will become a "whosoever".

"I understand it to mean that Christ died for all the sins of mankind, but it is up to mankind to receive God's free gift of grace through faith that is Christ Jesus in whom is our faith we trust in and transforms us through the Spiritual rebirth from above, John 3:5-7"

If Christ died paid for the sin of mankind, then all mankind sins MUST be paid, otherwise, something is wrong because it would be double jeopardy: if Christ paid, yet those who refused or wouldn't "receive" it also have to pay, that would mean two payments for the same sin would be necessary. To be correct legally, only one or the other payment should be required, not both. We know that all who are not covered under/by Christ's offering will be judged and punished, so that tells us that Christ could not have paid for the sins of all mankind. If it is truly a "free gift", (with which I totally agree) then why would it have to be "received" to acquire it ? To me, a gift can't be a gift until it is fully and completely in the hands of its respective recipient, and not under the giver's control-- only then is it truly a gift.

To receive a "faith in Christ" is actually a gift from God that is a by-product of salvation not the cause of it.

Sorry, I don't understand your point regarding John 3:5- 7. please clarify.

"The reference in "Ephesians 1:1-14 is about Spiritual blessings in Christ through the Spiritual rebirth from above as those by faith in Christ"

Actuality I think it says "faith of Christ"; that is, Christ's faith, anyway, it probably nets out the same-- we are saved by the faith that resides within Christ Himself. Christ ALONE was completely faithful to the prime directive given Him by the Father. Our faith, a faith in Christ, earns us nothing in God's eyes regarding salvation as it was imparted unto us as a part of the gift. it is only Christ's faith that counts. By the faith OF Jesus Christ we are given faith IN Jesus Christ.
Please observe:

[Gal 2:16 KJV]
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

"Seek and ye shall find, knock and the door shall be opened. It's God that calls us back to Him by His Holy Spirit, but many refuse to answer His calling them. We can not work towards salvation as it's a free gift from God"

This part may be a little voluminous, but I think it essential nevertheless.

Respectfully, I believe a review of what the Bible instructs for its interpretation would be helpful – an examination of a few of the more important rules it defines. In ignoring them, we run a significant risk of coming to an incorrect understanding. First and foremost, God wrote the Bible as one integrated book which must be approached as such. Additionally, we are informed that:

[2Pe 1:19-20 KJV] 19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

The above informs that all pertinent verses throughout the Bible must be examined and harmonized to find and understand the doctrine God intends to convey. God often does not include all relevant information in one verse, one chapter, one book. So, to form a coherent conclusion from one or two verses can be very misleading and dangerous.

[1Co 2:13 KJV] 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

This verse again informs that all relevant verses should be examined, correlated, and harmonized, and further, each contains a spiritual component. We should seek the spiritual aspect of God's intent.

More directions exist within the Bible, but I think these will suffice for the sake of your post. The takeaway is that we will need to look at other verses to comprehend the intent of the ones you've quoted.

So, in addition to Matt 7:7 &7:8, we should also review Luke 11:1 & 11:9 and Phi 2:13

[Mat 7:7-8 KJV]

7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

[Luk 11:9, 11:1 KJV]

9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.

This verse mimics exactly the teaching in Matt 7:7 & 7:8; however, 11:1 further clarifies God's intention:

1 And it came to pass, that, as he was praying in a certain place, when he ceased, one of his disciples said unto him, Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples. ...

Luke 11:1 adds to that which was taught in Matt 7:7 &8 and Luke 1:9. Christ's "disciples," were those spoken to by Christ who were ALREADY saved, so salvation was not His point.

11:9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.

Matt 7:7 & 8 and Luke 11:9 do not teach that God honors someone's demand for salvation. In the case of this verse, the salvation of those to whom He was speaking was already established (per 11:1).

Christ alone is the Savior who saves those chosen by God: an entirely different proposition than to demand it (which demand I perceive as the crux of your point).

[Phl 2:13 KJV]

13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.

The proceeding verse informs that whether realized or not, whether desired or not, that God has decreed He will lead those He saves into "ask" (ing), into "seek," (ing) into "knock" (ing) in order to grow their faith unto the fullness of the knowledge of Christ, though on the surface, it may seem to have been motivated by themselves.

Only those who will choose to "ask," "seek," or "knock" are they whom God first puts the Holy Spirit into their hearts and minds. In other words, they do it not to become saved, but as a result of having been saved.
This concept is that which underlies verses Matt 7:7 – 8

"Look at vs. 4 in Ephesians 1, God predestined us before the foundation of the world that we would be His elect as being holy and blameless before Him. Other words we had no sin until sin became known and we all fell short of God's glory. Jesus was/is God's plan of salvation before the foundation of the world as it is by faith, not the law that saves us. Unfortunitly not everyone has or will come to faith in Him."

If I've understood you correctly, I would have to disagree. I think the "predestined" relates to forgiveness bestowed upon some after the sin of Adam and Eve occurred, not before. My understanding is that the "foundation of the world" being referred to is the new world, the new heaven, new earth, new Jerusalem (new Holy City) to come, not those of this world. They were formed by God in the heavenly when Christ's offering on the cross was successfully completed and will replace those of this world. Had Christ not been successful (not possible), then that could never have transpired.

Hope this makes sense. Questions, disagreements, please let me know - thx

To much to go through right now so will address this tomorrow.

 

[rogerg]

I have been enjoying the things you have been posting. I do have a question however about the quoted comment. agree the elect like other sinners are born sinners, even children of wrath as others Eph 2:3 However would it be wrong to say that the elect, whom God Loved in Christ from everlasting Jer 31:3; Jn 17:23; and Christ having een made a curse for them Gal 3:13 are under the wrath of God when yet unconverted ? Doesnt that nullify the fact that for them, Christd death has been a propitiation and Gods wrath for them has been satisfied, appeased y the blood of Christ, even while they're unconverted. Looking forward to your response.

Really sorry that I haven't replied sooner, brightfame52 but I just saw your post right now.

Anyway, my understanding (and I could be wrong) is that the names of the all of elect were written into the Lamb's book of life upon successful completion of Christ's offering on the cross. If that is correct, then they are no longer under the auspices of the law of sin and death, but under the auspices law of the spirit of life in Christ, and hence not under God's wrath due to Christ (not themselves). For those who have been written into the Lamb's book, I believe God has made a commitment concerning them that after Christ's offering not to allow their death until (at least) they become saved. By this, we can know that all of the Elect, even those who might die as children or even in the womb have been covered by Christ. Please observe:

[2Sa 12:23 KJV] 23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.

We know that David was a true prophet of God. After his son's death, He informed us that he would go eventually to be with him though he died being very young. Now this doesn't mean that he nor his son went directly to heaven immediately after death as I believe they had to wait for Christ's offering to occur for sin to be remitted and the Lamb's book to be populated. However, they weren't under God's wrath or punishment either - I believe they were just held in a place of silence until immediately after Christ (if I remember correctly)

Also:

[Rom 9:11 KJV] 11
(For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
[Rom 9:13 KJV] 13
As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

So, God loved Jacob while he was yet in the womb of Sara. When God declares that he loves someone, I think it means they are of the Elect and will eventually be covered by Christ.

I'd like to think about my reply a little more and possibly refine it a little. Hope I answered at least part of your question. If not, or if you need me to clarify, please let me know - thx

 

[JLB]

On the contrary, they who are able "hear" and "believe" (the true Gospel) can only do so BECAUSE they first were saved

Please post the scripture that says “they who are able her and believe the true Gospel can only do so because they first were saved.”


that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:9



If means there is a condition that must be met, in order to receive the result of the promise of salvation.


The condition is believing and therefore obeying the Gospel.



Now if you believe there is another way for a person to be saved, then please post the scripture so we can all examine your doctrine to see if it is biblical or not.





JLB

 

[brightfame52]

The context is important, I agree. However, instead of looking at the next verse, let's look at the previous verses.

5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.
6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, (Heb. 2:5-9 KJV)

The context is all of mankind. "What is man". God made man a little lower than the angles, crowned him with honor, and set him over creation. God put man over creation but we don't see that now. Jesus came to rectify that situation.

I dont believe the context is all mankind, but only those who He tasted death for, those who shall be redeemed.

 

[Butch5]

I dont believe the context is all mankind, but only those who He tasted death for, those who shall be redeemed.

He tasted death for all mankind. That's the context the statement was made in. He tasted death for all so that He could bring many sons to glory.

 

[brightfame52]

roger

Anyway, my understanding (and I could be wrong) is that the names of the all of elect were written into the Lamb's book of life upon successful completion of Christ's offering on the cross.

Thanks for responding. Respectfully I disagree, I believe all the elect names were written into the Lambs book of life before the foundation Rev 13:8;17:8 and remember Jesus before He died told some to rejoice because their names were already written in heaven Lk 10:20

Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

[2Sa 12:23 KJV] 23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.

Didnt that child of Davids die before the Cross ? Wasnt that centuries before 33 ad ? The Childs sins were covered by the death of Christ which was yet future.

We know that David was a true prophet of God. After his son's death, He informed us that he would go eventually to be with him though he died being very young. Now this doesn't mean that he nor his son went directly to heaven immediately after death as I believe they had to wait for Christ's offering to occur for sin to be remitted and the Lamb's book to be populated. However, they weren't under God's wrath or punishment either - I believe they were just held in a place of silence until immediately after Christ (if I remember correctly)

If not under wrath, then God was propitiated for the child If not under wrath the child was Justified, not condemned. See as far as God was concerned, from His eternal perspective, Christs death for the sins of the elect had taken place Rev 13:8; 1 Pet 1:20, He doesnt have to wait for time Rom 4:17

17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

Also:

[Rom 9:11 KJV] 11
(For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
[Rom 9:13 KJV] 13
As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

So, God loved Jacob while he was yet in the womb of Sara. When God declares that he loves someone, I think it means they are of the Elect and will eventually be covered by Christ.

I believe the elects sins are covered by the death of Christ even before He actually shed it in time, For God Trusted His Son that Much to fulfill His Cross obligation in time, so it was good as accomplished.