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for_his_glory

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My preferred translation (and others) says "faith in Christ", not "faith of Christ". Why should I reject modern scholarship over the scholarship of men who lived 400 years ago? Clearly, the language of that time is different than modern English, the language we all use in 2022. And those KJV translators were not especially gifted.
There is a difference between faith in Christ and faith of Christ as I explained that in post # 1221. I never said to reject modern scholarship as long as it does not take away from what has been written by the Prophets and Apostles in what God gave to be written in all truths.

Many writings have become socially acceptable that takes away from that which has been taught not only 400 years ago, but 2000 years ago when Christ first began His teachings.
 
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for_his_glory

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[1Co 2:14 KJV] 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
Thus the whole reason that whosover will believe has to be Spiritually born again.

Col 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, {Spiritually born again John 3:5-7} seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
Col 3:2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
Col 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

I added the bold part to emphasize being Spiritually born again as whosoever (anyone) will believe will have eternal life, John 3:16.
 

for_his_glory

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If I've misunderstood your position regarding who Christ was/is, please let me know.
Yes, you misunderstood me. All I was showing was the difference in the word "in" and the word "of" in how various translations use them.
 

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There is a difference between faith in Christ and faith of Christ as I explained that in post # 1221. I never said to reject modern scholarship as long as it does not take away from what has been written by the Prophets and Apostles in what God gave to be written in all truths.

Many writings have become socially acceptable that takes away from that which has been taught not only 400 years ago, but 2000 years ago when Christ first began His teachings.
How do you know that what has been written by the Prophets and Apostles was accurately translated into early 15th Century English, which is often re-translated (on the fly) into 21st Century English? For example, faith of Christ vs. faith in Christ. Why do you think that the KJV translators used those words and other translations have different words?

Personally, I accept the work of modern translators for two reasons: 1) they have access to many more source documents than were available 400 years ago and 2) they have translated those sources into the language that you and I and millions of others speak/read/write every day.
 

for_his_glory

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How do you know that what has been written by the Prophets and Apostles was accurately translated into early 15th Century English, which is often re-translated (on the fly) into 21st Century English? For example, faith of Christ vs. faith in Christ. Why do you think that the KJV translators used those words and other translations have different words?

Personally, I accept the work of modern translators for two reasons: 1) they have access to many more source documents than were available 400 years ago and 2) they have translated those sources into the language that you and I and millions of others speak/read/write every day.
You need to take a look at the first modern English back in the 5th century is totally different then the modern English we speak today. English language is a constantly changing language that has been influenced by many different cultures and languages like Latin, French, Dutch/German, and Afrikaans. This is why scholars say that English is the hardest language to learn as meanings of words changed so much throughout the centuries. If you would read the original 1611 KJV and compare it to todays KJV you can see how the wording is different, but yet the same as far as understanding the text.

It doesn't matter what version you prefer as long as you are allowing the Holy Spirit teach you all truths. Personally I prefer the KJV.
 

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You need to take a look at the first modern English back in the 5th century is totally different then the modern English we speak today. English language is a constantly changing language that has been influenced by many different cultures and languages like Latin, French, Dutch/German, and Afrikaans. This is why scholars say that English is the hardest language to learn as meanings of words changed so much throughout the centuries. If you would read the original 1611 KJV and compare it to todays KJV you can see how the wording is different, but yet the same as far as understanding the text.

It doesn't matter what version you prefer as long as you are allowing the Holy Spirit teach you all truths. Personally I prefer the KJV.
I agree 100% Personally, I prefer the NET v2.1, the NIV, the NRSV, and the 1599 Geneva Bible (in that order). The secondary reason is the extensive documentation that accompanies the text.
 

OzSpen

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Oz,
I believe that it is self-interpreting. While I'm all for understanding the meaning of the words used in/by the Bible, I think that if you base your understanding of the Bible's message solely upon what you've mentioned above, then you will only facilitate and come to an independent verse by verse, limited secular understanding of the Bible, but miss the common spiritual messages that spans across its books. Take the word "fast" (as in fasting) for example. No matter how much external research we might do into the word "fast" as it is used in Mat 6:17, we would miss the spiritual meaning that had God assigned/intended for it. In Mat 6:17 our understanding of the word would lead us to believe it means to not eat, or as a form of self-denial of some kind. However, should we look at Isaiah 58:5 - 8, and compare between them, we can see the definition that God applies to it is completely different from what a lexicon would give us. In God's eyes, to fast is to share the Gospel with others. This technique of comparing is necessary for us to use because God wrote the Bible to be its own dictionary and glossary of terms (amongst other functions He employed), apart from that found within commonly accepted language definitions/usage. The below may not be the best possible example because I chose it quickly, but I think you might get the idea from it.

[Mat 6:17 KJV]
17 But thou, when thou fastest, anoint thine head, and wash thy face;

[Isa 58:5-8 KJV]
5 Is it such a fast that I have chosen? a day for a man to afflict his soul? [is it] to bow down his head as a bulrush, and to spread sackcloth and ashes [under him]? wilt thou call this a fast, and an acceptable day to the LORD?
6 [Is] not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?
7 [Is it] not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?
8 Then shall thy light break forth as the morning, and thine health shall spring forth speedily: and thy righteousness shall go before thee; the glory of the LORD shall be thy rereward.

The following are some (but not all) of the Bible's directions/insights that it provides to us regarding its self-interpretation:

[Mat 13:34 KJV] 34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:

[1Co 2:13 KJV] 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

[2Pe 1:20 KJV] 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

[Gal 4:24 KJV] 24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

[2Ti 2:14-15 KJV]
14 Of these things put [them] in remembrance, charging [them] before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, [but] to the subverting of the hearers.
15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

By "rightly dividing", I believe it is telling us to find and focus on the spiritual component of each verse not the temporal and to analyze it relative to the spiritual of other like verses throughout the Bible.

Hope this makes sense.

Roger

Roger,

You are depending on your subjective opinion for "rightly dividing." I wish you would take seriously the challenging job of exegeting Scripture instead of using "I believe it is telling us."

What does this phrase mean in 2 Tim 2:15?
  • "correctly handles the word of truth" (NIV)?
  • "correctly explains the word of truth" (NLT)?
  • "rightly handling the word of truth" (ESV).
Over the years the meaning has caused some controversy. "Rightly handling" has the primary meaning of "to cut," based on the present tense, masculine participle, horthotomounta. However, the person who"handles the word of truth rightly" is one who "does not change, pervert, mutilate, or distort it, neither does he use it with a wrong purpose in mind" (Hendriksen and Kistemaker, p. 263).

Oz
 

JLB

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Until born-again, no one can truly hear or obey the Gospel message. Again, please consider the following:

[1Co 2:14 KJV] 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

According to the above verse, until saved/born again, no one can receive the things of the Spirit, so, based upon that, it is impossible to believe or obey.
All of us were, or are, of the "natural man" category beginning in the womb and continuing until born-again or dying.

Please explain how a person is born again apart from hearing and believing the Gospel.



JLB
 

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You are depending on your subjective opinion for "rightly dividing." I wish you would take seriously the challenging job of exegeting Scripture instead of using "I believe it is telling us."

Oz,
I don't think it is a subjective opinion at all as it was taken from what the Bible teaches about itself.

[2Ti 3:15-17 KJV]
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

When the above verses inform that Scripture is able to make wise unto salvation, it is also telling us at the same time, that the process by which to rightly divide it is (and must be) included within the Bible itself and can only be achieved by following the guidelines the Bible sets-forth for its own interpretation. If those guidelines are followed (by those to whom they were intended), the Word of Truth (the Bible,) the result will be rightly divided biblical doctrine. The Bible is fully self-contained. The guidelines I provided were taken directly from the Bible so their value cannot be questioned. Should anyone attempt to use any procedures that are not directly from the Bible (and solely from the Bible) to understand the Bible, they place themselves into great spiritual jeopardy. If you are saying we should trust something outside of it to teach us how to interpret and understand it, I would say you would make a very grave mistake - don't rely on man to add a level of wisdom to the Bible by thinking they are wiser. Many would-be biblical scholars fall into that trap - they think they know more about the Bible than the Bible does. The Bible cannot lie or mislead about itself.

Timothy 2:15 means we should find in the Bible, the spiritual meaning, not the earthly meaning, in order to understand the mysteries of the kingdom
 
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JLB

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How do you know that what has been written by the Prophets and Apostles was accurately translated into early 15th Century English, which is often re-translated (on the fly) into 21st Century English? For example, faith of Christ vs. faith in Christ. Why do you think that the KJV translators used those words and other translations have different words?

Personally, I accept the work of modern translators for two reasons: 1) they have access to many more source documents than were available 400 years ago and 2) they have translated those sources into the language that you and I and millions of others speak/read/write every day.

Please do not try and cast doubt upon the scriptures.

STATEMENT OF FAITH

Doctrinal Statement

We believe that the Bible is inspired by God in its entirety, and is without error in the original autographs, a complete and final written revelation from God.




JLB
 

OzSpen

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Oz,
I don't think it is a subjective opinion at all as it was taken from what the Bible teaches about itself. . . .

Timothy 2:15 means we should find in the Bible, the spiritual meaning, not the earthly meaning, in order to understand the mysteries of the kingdom

Roger,

You didn't get that meaning from 2 Tim 2:15 but from Roger's opinion.

Oz
 

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Please explain how a person is born again apart from hearing and believing the Gospel.

Hmmm, sorry thought I already answered that. Being born-again is not a function or act of anything we may do. God alone causes that to happen. The hearing and believing of the Gospel can only happen as a result of, and AFTER, someone is born again. Faith is a fruit of the Spirit given from being born again
 

OzSpen

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The hearing and believing of the Gospel can only happen as a result of, and AFTER, someone is born again. Faith is a fruit of the Spirit given from being born again

Roger,

Please refer me to 5 Bible verses that support regeneration prior to being born again.

Oz
 

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Roger,

You didn't get that meaning from 2 Tim 2:15 but from Roger's opinion.

Oz

Oz,
Must be nice to be judge and jury. No, it is not Roger's opinion. Look Oz, if you want to have a discussion or debate, fine but if you're going to be rude, we can terminate it now. I won't accept being called a liar. Your choice
 

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Okay, I realize this is not my discussion and sorry to interrupt, but I would like to quickly present the following verse for your consideration. Before becoming saved/born again, we are all of the "natural man" category. If the things of the Spirit of God are foolishness unto the unsaved (as the verse below informs us), then they cannot possibly know them, and are incapable of knowing them, and therefore, of themselves, it is impossible for them to come to faith in Christ before and unless first becoming born again.
[1Co 2:13] KJV 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
[1Co 2:14 KJV] 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
Paul, in verse 14, is writing in regard to further teachings/learning.
Not initial belief upon hearing.
Verse 13 (which I inserted in your post above), is the clue, as verse 14 starts with "But". ( by means of contrast to the natural man, or paradoxically)
 

rogerg

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Paul, in verse 14, is writing in regard to further teachings/learning.
Not initial belief upon hearing.
Verse 13 (which I inserted in your post above), is the clue, as verse 14 starts with "But". ( by means of contrast to the natural man, or paradoxically)
Hopeful,

Respectfully, if I understand you correctly, based upon those verses, I don't see how the conclusion you've come to is possible. They just don't/can't support your claim as they are the opposites of each other. v13 states about being TAUGHT BY the Holy Spirit. V14 on the other hand, states that natural man RECEIVES NOT the things of the Holy Spirit, not that he receives them - just the opposite. Therefore, as long as a "natural man" (those not born again), remain a natural man, it is impossible for him to grasp the things of the Spirit of God because he has not the Spirit, and without the Spirit, they're folly unto him and always will be. Consequently, he must receive the Spirit and be born again BEFORE that can happen, including not being able to come to a true faith in Christ. And until and unless it happens, he never will be able to. We were all of the "natural man" category before becoming saved - we were that way from the womb. So, it would be impossible for a natural man to acquire true faith, wisdom, fruit of the Spirt, ETC, by his own efforts or intellect (or whatever you'd choose to call it): he must first be born-again (only) by God's intervention, and from/by that, true faith, spiritual wisdom, the fruits of the Spirit are freely imparted solely as a gift, but not before.
 
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Hopeful,

Respectfully, if I understand you correctly, based upon those verses, I don't see how the conclusion you've come to is possible. They just don't/can't support your claim as they are the opposites of each other. v13 states about being TAUGHT BY the Holy Spirit. V14 on the other hand, states that natural man RECEIVES NOT the things of the Holy Spirit, not that he receives them - just the opposite. Therefore, as long as a "natural man" (those not born again), remain a natural man, it is impossible for him to grasp the things of the Spirit of God because he has not the Spirit, and without the Spirit, they're folly unto him and always will be. Consequently, he must receive the Spirit and be born again BEFORE that can happen, including not being able to come to a true faith in Christ. And until and unless it happens, he never will be able to. We were all of the "natural man" category before becoming saved - we were that way from the womb. So, it would be impossible for a natural man to acquire true faith, wisdom, fruit of the Spirt, ETC, by his own efforts or intellect (or whatever you'd choose to call it): he must first be born-again (only) by God's intervention, and from/by that, true faith, spiritual wisdom, the fruits of the Spirit are freely imparted solely as a gift, but not before.
As we all started out as "natural men", your POV indicates none will come to conversion.
But that surely isn't the case.
The love and grace of God draws those who will be Spiritual men upon their rebirth.
Until that rebirth, they walk in the flesh instead of in the Spirit.
That "fleshly mind" will rule a man until he has been baptized into Christ, and into His death, and burial, and he is raised with Christ to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:3-7)
Thus casting off the flesh and quickened by the Holy Spirit.. (Col 2:11-13)
As it is written..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Gal 5:24)
It is that new-Spiritual man who can receive the deeper teachings of apostles, bishops, elders, and brethren.
The natural man can see the chapter titles, but the Spiritual man can see verses 5-8, 12-20, and 24-27. (just example numbers)

This applies to only 1 Cor 2:13-14, and receiving post-conversion things of the Lord.
Conversion and salvation are available to all men without regard to education or any other parameter.
 
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JLB

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Hmmm, sorry thought I already answered that. Being born-again is not a function or act of anything we may do. God alone causes that to happen. The hearing and believing of the Gospel can only happen as a result of, and AFTER, someone is born again. Faith is a fruit of the Spirit given from being born again

Please explain how God alone causes us to be born again, since you believe this happens apart from hearing and believing the Gospel.


Does He do it at birth or during our life?
Do we know when He does it?


At this point I would ask that you provide scripture that teaches us God alone causes us to be born again apart from hearing and believing the Gospel Message of Christ: the incorruptible seed of the word of God.







JLB
 

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Does He do it at birth or during our life?
Do we know when He does it?


At this point I would ask that you provide scripture that teaches us God alone causes us to be born again apart from hearing and believing the Gospel Message of Christ: the incorruptible seed of the word of God.

JLB,

He does so according to, and at a time of, His choosing and good pleasure. Generally, that it has occurred it is made known to us through an ongoing change to our attitudes, perceptions and understanding regarding things spiritual. I do not think this to be just an off/on condition but is continuing and growing within us throughout our lives.

This topic is extremely important, so I definitely understand your concern and desire to fully explore it.

Here are some verses which I think might answer your "ask". Since I'm not completely sure of what you're looking for I'll start with the following. With many of them, we will need to look closely at them and concentrate/ponder what is being said to find their born-again message as it may not always be obvious, plus, context will be important to some of them. Respectfully, please read them very carefully.
There are many, many more so if these don't satisfy your requirement (and I know that I've missed many important ones,) let me know and I'll try to provide others. I would be happy within my limited abilities, to try to clarify any questions you may have.
Also, while probably obvious, let me add that just as we cannot give to themselves human physical life or make ourselves to be born, neither can we give to ourselves spiritual life or make ourselves to be born spiritually. God must do that and from/by which do all other spiritual blessings and gifts flow.

[Jhn 1:13 KJV] 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

[Jhn 3:3-8 KJV]
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

[Jhn 6:65-66 KJV]
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66 From that [time] many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

[Tit 3:5 KJV] 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

[Mat 13:15-16 KJV]
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and [their] ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with [their] eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and should understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16 But blessed [are] your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

[Rom 12:2 KJV] 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

[1Co 2:10-14 KJV] 1
10 But God hath revealed [them] unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

[Phl 2:13 KJV] 13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.

[1Pe 1:22-23 KJV]
22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, [see that ye] love one another with a pure heart fervently:
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

I'll continue thinking about your question and update the above with more verses that can demonstrate it.
 
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