Tasted Death for every Man !

[for_his_glory]

There is no self-interpreting literature - any literature - without proper use of meanings, grammar & syntax. Do you allow for these necessities when interpreting Scripture?

I agree. Our English words can take on many definitions for just one word which can change that which has already been written in the scriptures in how others teach. This is why when we study we need the full context of what is being taught to us.

I use Strong's Exhaustive Concordance along with Smith's Bible Dictionary and cross referencing scripture between the OT and NT, plus researching the history and culture of the various eras in the Bible. I'm not saying I always get it right, but when I do error in how I understand the Holy Spirit always sends correction. Just because I have been studying the Bible for 40 years does not mean I understand everything that is written.

 

[OzSpen]

I agree. Our English words can take on many definitions for just one word which can change that which has already been written in the scriptures in how others teach. This is why when we study we need the full context of what is being taught to us.

I use Strong's Exhaustive Concordance along with Smith's Bible Dictionary and cross referencing scripture between the OT and NT, plus researching the history and culture of the various eras in the Bible. I'm not saying I always get it right, but when I do error in how I understand the Holy Spirit always sends correction. Just because I have been studying the Bible for 40 years does not mean I understand everything that is written.

FHG,

Since I know the original Greek of the NT, I use 2 lexicons (dictionaries): (1) Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, & Danker (eds); (2) Thayer's Greek lexicon and 2 very large word studies, (1) Kittel & Friedrich (eds), and (2) Colin Brown (ed).

These tools provide extra insight into the foreign language words.

So, both of us have to use tools outside of the Bible to obtain the meaning of the original languages.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Calvinists really believe that? If I were interested in why they believe that I would continue the discussion about it but I'm not. I believe the Bible, not a denominational fallacy.

Calvinists also believe the Bible.

See: Limited atonement—is it biblical?

 

[for_his_glory]

FHG,

Since I know the original Greek of the NT, I use 2 lexicons (dictionaries): (1) Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, & Danker (eds); (2) Thayer's Greek lexicon and 2 very large word studies, (1) Kittel & Friedrich (eds), and (2) Colin Brown (ed).

These tools provide extra insight into the foreign language words.

So, both of us have to use tools outside of the Bible to obtain the meaning of the original languages.

Oz

I agree, especially when we need to define the true meaning of certain words.

 

[rogerg]

Calvinists really believe that? If I were interested in why they believe that I would continue the discussion about it but I'm not. I believe the Bible, not a denominational fallacy.

Here are some of the reasons, and as you can see, they are biblical

[Jhn 12:37-40 KJV]
37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

[Eph 1:17-18 KJV]
17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

 

[for_his_glory]

Here are some of the reasons, and as you can see, they are biblical

[Jhn 12:37-40 KJV]
37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

[Eph 1:17-18 KJV]
17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

But read on as this is why many do not believe.

John 12:41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.
John 12:42 Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:
John 12:43 For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.

Are we to be following man and all their theologies, or are we to be following Christ believing what He has already taught us.

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
2Ti 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

 

[for_his_glory]

Calvinists also believe the Bible.

See: Limited atonement—is it biblical?

That website is a Calvinistic site, but some topics in it are true.

 

[for_his_glory]

Jesus Christ Died For All

by David J. Stewart | May 2016

Revelation 22:17, “And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come.
And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.”

The Holy Bible plainly teaches that Jesus Christ DIED FOR ALL MANKIND, not just a select few people (i.e., the saints). Charles H. Spurgeon (1834-1892) was London's mightiest Baptist preacher, who is still admired and followed today worldwide by many Christians for his multitude of printed books, sermons and writings. Although mostly correct in his doctrines, one major flaw in Spurgeon's theology was his denial that Christ died for all men. This heresy of John Calvin (1509-1564) is known as “Limited Atonement.” This false doctrine is part of the 5-fold satanic lie of “Calvinism.”

These devil doctrines are all progressive. That is, one heresy begats another out of necessity. The false religious system of Calvinism is summed up with the acronym: T-U-L-I-P. The first is Total Depravity, teaching that man is so wicked that apart from God's divine intervention, no man would ever come to the Lord for salvation. Hence, the next heresy is Unconditional Election, which teaches basically that God chooses who will be saved. Since God “chooses” who will be saved, there must be a predetermined number of people. This is called “Limited Atonement.” Consequently, those select few whom God has chosen must be forced to get saved. This is called Irresistible Grace. And then, finally, since God chooses and forces a person to be saved (according to John Calvin), God will do what it takes to make those select few saints Persevere in holy living. From beginning to end, Calvinism is of the Devil.

One thing that John Calvin ignores is man's “freewill” (which God has given to every human being). Humans are not slaves. If Calvinism were true, then it would mean God overrides man's freewill, forcing Himself upon humanity, selectively deciding who gets saved and who doesn't. The Bible is very clear that God reaches out to “ALL MEN” to be saved, inviting them to believe the Gospel.

Here are several Scriptures which mention “all men” concerning salvation:

John 1:7, “The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.”

John 12:32, “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.”

1st John 2:2, “And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”

Acts 17:30, “And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent.”

Romans 5:18, “Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.”

Titus 2:11, “For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men.”

2nd Corinthians 5:14, “For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead.”

Why would God's grace appear to “all men,” if only a few are chosen for salvation? Obviously, that wouldn't make any sense! Why would God command “all men” to repent if only a select few elect have been chosen? As you just read in John 12:32, Jesus foretold that after His resurrection and ascension into Heaven, He would draw “all men” unto Himself by the Holy Spirit. These are just but a few Scriptures, which plainly teach us that Christ died for “all men.”

Dr. Paul Reiter (1929-2013), professor at Appalachian Bible College for 35 years, has clearly and simply summarized the Scriptural teaching on this issue. FOR WHOM DID CHRIST DIE? HE DIED...

For all (1st Timothy 2:6; Isaiah 53:6).
For every man (Hebrews 2:9).
For the world (John 3:16).
For the sins of the whole world (1st John 2:2).
For the ungodly (Romans 5:6).
For false teachers (2nd Peter 2:1).
For many (Matthew 20:28).
For Israel (John 11:50-51).
For the Church (Ephesians 5:25).
For “me” (Galatians 2:20).
*From unpublished lecture notes written by Dr. Paul Reiter, former professor at Appalachian Bible College, Bradley, West Virginia.

 

[rogerg]

John 12:41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.
John 12:42 Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:
John 12:43 For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.

The verses that I posted informs us that they were completely unable to believe. The fear that a believer may have about retribution (should they confess Christ publicly) is a totally different matter than of someone who, to begin with, isn't a believer at all. So, the verses you incorrectly used to try to refute me, are incompatible to, and different than, my point, and thereby have failed. My post, and the verses included therein, were not addressing a fear of retribution but rather, that in spite of everything those who left Christ had witnessed firsthand, they just plain flat couldn't believe. This was so because, as with all unbelievers, they had not been born-again. Until and unless that happens to someone, true belief escapes them and is impossible to obtain on their own -- that was fundamental to my post.
Look again at these verses:

[Jhn 12:37- 40 KJV]
37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

The individuals of verses 12:37 - 40 had walked with Christ Himself, knew Him, saw firsthand His many miracles, and yet, they COULD NOT believe - truly amazing, isn't it? It should clearly demonstrate to us that something spiritual, not intellectual, is required to having true faith.

Are we to be following man and all their theologies, or are we to be following Christ believing what He has already taught us.

Not sure what you meant by the above? If it pertains to my post, I will say that my post directly referenced verses of the Bible -- they weren't my words they were God's.

 

[OzSpen]

That website is a Calvinistic site, but some topics in it are true.

How do you decide which topics are true and others are false?

 

[for_his_glory]

The verses that I posted informs us that they were completely unable to believe. The fear that a believer may have about retribution (should they confess Christ publicly) is a totally different matter than of someone who, to begin with, isn't a believer at all. So, the verses you incorrectly used to try to refute me, are incompatible to, and different than, my point, and thereby have failed. My post, and the verses included therein, were not addressing a fear of retribution but rather, that in spite of everything those who left Christ had witnessed firsthand, they just plain flat couldn't believe. This was so because, as with all unbelievers, they had not been born-again. Until and unless that happens to someone, true belief escapes them and is impossible to obtain on their own -- that was fundamental to my post.
Look again at these verses:

[Jhn 12:37- 40 KJV]
37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

The individuals of verses 12:37 - 40 had walked with Christ Himself, knew Him, saw firsthand His many miracles, and yet, they COULD NOT believe - truly amazing, isn't it? It should clearly demonstrate to us that something spiritual, not intellectual, is required to having true faith.


Not sure what you meant by the above? If it pertains to my post, I will say that my post directly referenced verses of the Bible -- they weren't my words they were God's.

And I added more verses to see the full context of why others do not believe even though they have been shown truth like those who literally witnessed the miracles of Christ, but yet did not believe. It wasn't to take away from your post, but to add to what you already posted.

 

[rogerg]

Revelation 22:17, “And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come.

Only those that can "heareth" are they who have become born-again; only the elect of God can become born-again. Christ did not die for everyone; else everyone must be saved. Christ died only for the spiritual seed: those who are part of God's promise are the seed and MUST become saved by/because God so promised, and absolutely for no other reason - true faith is a product from that given to some. Those not of the promise, can never be of the saved.

[Rom 4:16 KJV] 16 Therefore [it is] of faith, that [it might be] by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

 

[for_his_glory]

How do you decide which topics are true and others are false?

by lining everything up with scripture.

 

[rogerg]

And I added more verses to see the full context of why others do not believe even though they have been shown truth like those who literally witnessed the miracles of Christ, but yet did not believe. It wasn't to take away from your post, but to add to what you already posted.

Sorry then I misunderstood your point - my fault - thank you

 

[for_his_glory]

Only those that can "heareth" are they who have become born-again; only the elect of God can become born-again. Christ did not die for everyone; else everyone must be saved. Christ died only for the spiritual seed: those who are part of God's promise are the seed and MUST become saved by/because God so promised, and absolutely for no other reason - true faith is a product from that given to some. Those not of the promise, can never be of the saved.

[Rom 4:16 KJV] 16 Therefore [it is] of faith, that [it might be] by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

You are teaching the false doctrine of "Limited Atonement" which is clearly against the teachings of Christ in whom God said He died for everyone, John 3:16, but not everyone will believe. By teaching this false doctrine you are causing others to not accept Jesus as they see themselves not being a part of those who have already been so called pre-elected.

 

[rogerg]

You are teaching the false doctrine of "Limited Atonement" which is clearly against the teachings of Christ in whom God said He died for everyone, John 3:16, but not everyone will believe. By teaching this false doctrine you are causing others to not accept Jesus as they see themselves not being a part of those who have already been so called pre-elected.

They are clearly not against the teachings of Christ. Where in John 3:16 does it say that Christ died for everyone? Didn't the verses I posted earlier say that they could not believe? What do you think "could not believe" means?

Look closely at these verses:

[Luk 10:23 KJV] 23 And he turned him unto [his] disciples, and said privately, Blessed [are] the eyes which see the things that ye see:

Their eyes had to first be blessed for them to be able to "see"

[Jhn 12:40 KJV] 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Their eyes were blinded, and hearts hardened, so that they could not understand and be healed

 

[for_his_glory]

They are clearly not against the teachings of Christ. Where in John 3:16 does it say that Christ died for everyone? Didn't the verses I posted earlier say that they could not believe? What do you think "could not believe" means?

Look closely at these verses:

[Luk 10:23 KJV] 23 And he turned him unto [his] disciples, and said privately, Blessed [are] the eyes which see the things that ye see:

Their eyes had to first be blessed for them to be able to "see"

[Jhn 12:40 KJV] 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Their eyes were blinded, and hearts hardened, so that they could not understand and be healed

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
John 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
John 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Whosoever means all who will believe as it is not limited as God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son that all have the opportunity to come to Christ.

 

[rogerg]

Whosoever means all who will believe as it is not limited as God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son that all have the opportunity to come to Christ.

Where do you find in the Bible that "whosoever" means that "all" have the opportunity to come to Christ? Could it be at least theoretically possible, that Christ's purpose was to specifically save only those intended by God to salvation making them the "whosoever(s)"? Think about the implications of your point of view: those who are unable for any reason to believe, such as those who will not have opportunity to hear the true Gospel; those who are mentally deficient that cannot perceive the Gospel; those who die in the womb, ETC, according to you, everyone in those categories, can never be saved - so, based upon that please explain what their spiritual end will be, since apparently Christ is of no benefit whatsoever to them, even though (as you say) Christ died for them too. This means that if Christ sacrificed on their behalf, and fully removed their transgression, yet they can never find forgiveness. I believe your conclusions therefore to be biblically, theologically, and logically unsound.
Further, and even more alarmingly, your point of view takes away the role of Saviour from Christ and makes it the responsibility of each individual to achieve on their own.

Consider the contradiction your interpretation raises when we compare John 17:9 to 3:16. In John 17:9 we read:
[Jhn 17:9 KJV] 9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

Jesus tells us in the above verse that He prays not for this world - the world that you say the Father so loved - supposedly including everyone- yet He prays not for it, but only for those whom the Father has given to Him (and vise versa), for they alone are the ones the Father claimed.

Compare to John 3:16:

[Jhn 3:16 KJV]
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

We can see by comparing these two verses, that the "whosoever" cannot be a group of "all" people who inherently comprise it. Nevertheless, according to you, from that group of "all", per you, the only ones who can be saved are those with the intellectual ability that can reason their way into a faith in Christ.

[Jhn 3:17 KJV]
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

In John 18:38, Jesus informed us that His kingdom was not of this world.

[Jhn 18:36 KJV]
36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

and

[Luk 22:30 KJV] 30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

We know that God will destroy this world (Kosmos) along with everything in it, so then how would He be able to also save it (per your statement regarding John 3:16) and yet will have to at the same time, to destroy it (per 2 Peter 3:10 - 13)? So, based upon your understanding, how does God achieve both of these mutually exclusive events?

[2Pe 3:10 KJV] 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
[2Pe 3:13 KJV]
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

[Mar 10:30 KJV] 30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.

So, the world that God so loved which world is identified in John 3:16, is further explained in Mark 10:30. From Mark 10:30, we can know it is the world to come that is the one that God loves and is where eternal life will be found but it is not this current world.

It's kind of late for me now since I get up early, so I'm not sure that my post is entirely intelligible. I may therefore have to amend it tomorrow after I reread it. If you disagree with it (which I'm sure you will), or don't understand it, please let me know and I'll try to clarify.

 

[OzSpen]

That website is a Calvinistic site, but some topics in it are true.

FHG,

Do you understand that by that kind of reply you have committed erroneous reasoning? Instead of discussing the theology at hand, you have brushed the issue aside because it is "a Calvinistic site."

This is known as a Genetic Logical Fallacy: The Genetic Fallacy "bases the truth claim of an argument on the origin of its claims or premises."

The origin of the claim was presented by you: "It's a Calvinistic site" so the information on the site can't be fully trusted to conform with general theological doctrine ("but some topics in it are true".) Therefore, the claim is true/false because of this Calvinistic information.

It's a subtle error of reasoning but, nevertheless, it is still an error.

The better approach would be for you and me to check on the Scriptures for the biblical teaching on any doctrine and not blame the outcome on its Calvinistic (or Arminian) origin.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Where do you find in the Bible that "whosoever" means that "all" have the opportunity to come to Christ? Could it be at least theoretically possible, that Christ's purpose was to specifically save only those intended by God to salvation making them the "whosoever(s)"? Think about the implications of your point of view: those who are unable for any reason to believe, such as those who will not have opportunity to hear the true Gospel; those who are mentally deficient that cannot perceive the Gospel; those who die in the womb, ETC, according to you, everyone in those categories, can never be saved - so, based upon that please explain what their spiritual end will be, since apparently Christ is of no benefit whatsoever to them, even though (as you say) Christ died for them too. This means that if Christ sacrificed on their behalf, and fully removed their transgression, yet they can never find forgiveness. I believe your conclusions therefore to be biblically, theologically, and logically unsound.
Further, and even more alarmingly, your point of view takes away the role of Saviour from Christ and makes it the responsibility of each individual to achieve on their own.

rogerg,

The Greek word pas in the NT means:

Pas
all , all things , every , all men , whosoever , everyone , whole , all manner of , every man , no Trans , every thing , any , whatsoever , whosoever , always , daily , any thing , no , not tr ,
704

Source: https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/words/Whosoever

Oz