Temporal Salvation?

[JLB]

it is ? where did Jesus say that scripture plz i dont find the term EX BELIEVER in scripture .if the Bible don't say it don't use it . i am only using scripture to present my case .

What scripture are you using to teach us that a person who believes, then no longer believes is still saved?

I haven’t seen that scripture from you.


I have plainly and clearly given you scripture that shows us that the condition for salvation is to believe.

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.Luke 8:12

• lest they should believe and be saved.

Believe = Saved


Jesus states the principle by which we are saved, is to believe, and it’s this believing that saves.

Either you agree that people are saved by believing, the believing Jesus referred to, or you don’t.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Help me here.
Where is temporary salvation in Scripture?
I never heard of it.
Is it something that people make up and then others believe it?

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.Luke 8:12

• lest they should believe and be saved.

Believe = Saved


Jesus states the principle by which we are saved, is to believe, and it’s this believing that saves.


Do you agree with this or disagree?


JLB

 

[JLB]

1 John 2:19;
They went out from us, but did not really belong to us. For if they belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that NONE of them belonged to us.

John is saying that none of them were saved to begin with.
How did he know?
"Their going showed that none of them belonged to us".

Have you ever joined a Church fellowship then later left?

Yes it’s absolutely true that unbelieving Jews in that day would pose as believers to spy on them in an effort to pick off weak believers who be persuaded to turn back to Judaism.

It happened with Paul as well.

That’s not the point we are discussing though, we are discussing those who do in fact believe and are being persecuted BECAUSE they are believers the succumb to the temptation to save themselves from suffering as a martyr by turning away from Christ.

Do you see the difference?


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You make a good point when you say "Wake up church"!
But to group everyone into categories as you always do thinking that certain beliefs are believed the same by all people that you put into a certain category, that's inane.
I can believe in OSAS for a totally different reason than why someone else might believe it.
But you put us all in the same category.
When you talk that way, I have to question everything you say.

I'm not talking about OSAS (that's not allowed).
I'm addressing the new movement in the church that says you can be saved and purposely live in sin because salvation is not by works.

The interesting thing being, Calvinists remain noticeably quiet and have let this new doctrine take hold in the church. As you know, Calvinists completely disagree with that doctrine and say that if you're living in sin you're not even saved in the first place for the argument to even matter.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.Luke 8:12

• lest they should believe and be saved.

Believe = Saved


Jesus states the principle by which we are saved, is to believe, and it’s this believing that saves.


Do you agree with this or disagree?


JLB

Lest indicates the possibility of something undesirable happening.
The key word here is possibility.
It hasn't happened yet.
They hear the word, but the devil takes it away, "lest" they believe and become saved.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Have you ever joined a Church fellowship then later left?


JLB

You can't use a worldly analogy to make a spiritual point.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Lest indicates the possibility of something undesirable happening.
The key word here is possibility.
It hasn't happened yet.
They hear the word, but the devil takes it away, "lest" they believe and become saved.

The point is, in Calvinism 'believe' means saved in vs. 12 then suddenly means 'not really saved' in vs. 13.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You can't use a worldly analogy to make a spiritual point.

He's using exactly what John is referring to in 1 John 2:19.
They left the church, so that means, categorically, without exception everyone who leaves your church wasn't really saved to begin with. Obviously, that's absurd. That's not the point John is making. He's not writing hard and fast doctrine. He's addressing a particular group of people, namely the Gnostics, who, because of the fundamental flaw in their doctrine, were never 'of them' in the first place. This becomes more apparent when you see John warn those who truly are saved (by his own admission) and are 'of them' to not also leave like they did (vs. 24).

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I'm not talking about OSAS (that's not allowed).
I'm addressing the new movement in the church that says you can be saved and purposely live in sin because salvation is not by works.

The interesting thing being, Calvinists remain noticeably quiet and have let this new doctrine take hold in the church. As you know, Calvinists completely disagree with that doctrine and say that if you're living in sin you're not even saved in the first place for the argument to even matter.

Where do you come up with these new movements?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

The point is, in Calvinism 'believe' means saved in vs. 12 then suddenly means 'not really saved' in vs. 13.

Is this a Calvinist thread?
Are you a Calvinist?

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

This is the junk doctrine of the church today. It's lazy, faithless, fake Christianity pawned off as the grace of God to live in sin. You need to explain the following passage, because it completely and utterly contradicts what you said:

"5For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. 8For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins.

10Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election." - 2 Peter 1:5-10

If you were my neighbor and you claimed you were a believing, saved Christian I would expect you to purposely and forcefully stop yourself from lusting for my wife from your view over the fence. None of this 'God will fix me someday, because if I stopped myself that would just be me trying to save myself, and I would be sinning". That's pure garbage. I would expect you to "make every effort" to put your fleshly desires to death and walk according to the Spirit, just as the Bible exhorts us to do. Your junk doctrine is responsible for the end times falling away of the church that we are experiencing right now. It has brought a multitude of fake believers into the church who have been deluded into thinking they are saved. They have been taught there is no cost to weigh or consider before making a decision to be saved and become a disciple of Christ.

"5For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. 8For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins.

What makes you think that I have no desire to do these Wise things? I do. And NOT because I fear Losing my Salvation If I do NONE of them.....If one gets saved by Resting in Paul’s Gospel Of 1 Cor15:1-4, they will have God’s Spirit in them and “ FIND” themselves doing NATURALLY what others are WORKING so hard for .......I do all of those things as the Spirit guides me...like the Law —— all of this stuff is for our own Good....

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

He's using exactly what John is referring to in 1 John 2:19.
They left the church, so that means, categorically, without exception everyone who leaves your church wasn't really saved to begin with. Obviously, that's absurd. That's not the point John is making. He's not writing hard and fast doctrine. He's addressing a particular group of people, namely the Gnostics, who, because of the fundamental flaw in their doctrine, were never 'of them' in the first place. This becomes more apparent when you see John warn those who truly are saved (by his own admission) and are 'of them' to not also leave like they did (vs. 24).

I disagree.
The word warn, warning, or any related word is not used anywhere in this chapter.
What he uses are words of teaching.
Perseverance, Word in heart, union with Christ, God's promises, Eternal life.
Nothing about warning the believing church.
The word warn is very negative.
John's letter is very positive and uplifting.

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

Confessing words is exactly how we are saved.

Its how we believe and therefore obey the Gospel of Jesus Christ.


For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:10

• with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

JLB

With this type of thinking still in mind...... “ If you will confess Me before men, I will confess you before my Father.....
Attention Visitors, Lurkers and Newbies : NEVER forget how EASY it is to be Saved.....Simply Believe Jesus is the One that He claimed to be—- God's Son and Your Savior. Only ONE thing you must do—- ASK! “ Anybody that ASKS to be Saved, WILL be Saved......” God Bless...

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Where do you come up with these new movements?

This shows me how deceptive the Freegrace movement is.
People don't even know it exists, yet so many subscribe to it.

The amusing part about it is they'll spout off their Freegrace beliefs, then when you address them they insist they don't believe that way.

And just so there is no misunderstanding, I'm not addressing the OSAS aspect of Freegrace doctrine. I'm addressing the necessity to have a living faith--one that works--in order to be saved. Freegrace says dead faith saves, too. I'm being careful to avoid the implications that having a dead faith has in regard to OSAS.

 

[JLB]

Simply Believe Jesus is the One that He claimed to be—- God's Son and Your Savior. Only ONE thing you must do—- ASK! “ Anybody that ASKS to be Saved, WILL be Saved......” God Bless...

Ok. Agreed.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Is this a Calvinist thread?

I don't know, is it?
Just as long as we don't make it a OSAS thread we're good.

Are you a Calvinist?

Absolutely not.
You have to make so many scriptures not really mean what they say, and ignore context, to be a Calvinist. I can't do that.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I disagree.
The word warn, warning, or any related word is not used anywhere in this chapter.
What he uses are words of teaching.
Perseverance, Word in heart, union with Christ, God's promises, Eternal life.
Nothing about warning the believing church.
The word warn is very negative.
John's letter is very positive and uplifting.

The word you are thinking of is 'exhort'.
John exhorts the remaining believers to not also leave but to keep believing what they heard in the beginning.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

"5For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. 8For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins.

What makes you think that I have no desire to do these Wise things? I do. And NOT because I fear Losing my Salvation If I do NONE of them.....If one gets saved by Resting in Paul’s Gospel Of 1 Cor15:1-4, they will have God’s Spirit in them and “ FIND” themselves doing NATURALLY what others are WORKING so hard for .......I do all of those things as the Spirit guides me...like the Law —— all of this stuff is for our own Good....

The point we were addressing is the matter of 'make every effort' (2 Peter 1:5, 2 Peter 1:10).
If you were my Christian neighbor, I'd expect you to make every effort to stay the heck away from my wife, my lawn mower, and my property, and to not even LOOK over the fence with longing at any of these things. You don't get the luxury as a Christian to offend me while you're waiting around for God to work those things in you, all in the name of some ridiculous Freegrace doctrine that says if you purposely make an effort to do right that's you not resting in Christ and you trying to save yourself. How absurd. If you believe a doctrine like that YOU ARE DELUDED.

 

[JLB]

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:”

Exactly.

He gives us the power to BECOME sons of God.

BECOME involves a process.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Lest indicates the possibility of something undesirable happening.
The key word here is possibility.
It hasn't happened yet.
They hear the word, but the devil takes it away, "lest" they believe and become saved.

Salvation is desirable.


The requirement for salvation is to believe.


Do you agree or disagree?



JLB