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Temporal Salvation?

Step aside , Paul—-There’s a New Kid in town— the REAL Chief Of Sinners”....

Paul claimed he considered himself the chief of sinners who Jesus came to save.

Paul certainly wasn’t a sinner, that’s just ridiculous.

And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord who has enabled me, because He counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry, although I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and an insolent man; but I obtained mercy because I did it ignorantly in unbelief. And the grace of our Lord was exceedingly abundant, with faith and love which are in Christ Jesus. This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief. 1 Timothy 1:12-15

Paul humbly considered himself at the top of list of sinners Christ came to save, because he persecuted the church being an insolent man.

We who are saved are called saints, not sinners.


A sinner by definition is someone who is separated from Christ.

For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; Hebrews 7:26


SINNER - Strongs G268 - hamartōlos


  1. devoted to sin, a sinner
    1. not free from sin
    2. pre-eminently sinful, especially wicked
      1. all wicked men
      2. specifically of men stained with certain definite vices or crimes
        1. tax collectors, heathen


Do you honestly think this about the Apostle Paul?


You are way, way out of line.




JLB
 
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I have already told you my Position in regard to Sin.....don’t you comprehend ANYTHING? I HATE Sin—- it is as appealing to me as a Drano Enema....or sticking my hand in a fire.....DO YOU UNDERsTAND ? If you continue to appear as if you are not “ getting” my Posts That could help you, I could be forced to ignore you —- trust me, you don’t want THAT ! No Brag- Just Fact.

There is no such thing as “resting in the Gospel”



JLB
 
And you are an ADMINISTRATER here? Wow. Simply Wow. This is Scary......and Sad...

I have asked you to provide scripture for your claim of “resting in the Gospel of grace” and you only referred to Hebrews chapter 3&4 which is a vague reference to 2 chapters that are pertaining to disobedience and departing from Christ the living God.


So when you can show me where this “totally obvious” biblical phrase of “resting in the Gospel of grace is found in the bible, then we can examine it and you can explain what “resting in the Gospel of grace” means and how we as Christians go about doing it.


JLB
 
While we are still alive we can learn some valuable lessons about disobedience that will ultimately prevent us from going to hell, if we repent.


Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19


  • that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.


Do you understand what this phrase means, and where it comes from... will not inherit the kingdom of God?

I encourage you to do so.




JLB

Thanks Teach.....I will try to return later to straighten out all of your misunderstandings about my “ Heretical” Doctrine Of “ Nothing But The Blood Of Jesus for our Salvation” ......Boy.....I sure am glad I don’t find myself on the Wrong Side Of THAT debate !
Right now, it’s time for a nice ride on my Sinful Harley......and thank God for His Grace .....Later, Blind Guides! Vrrrrrrrrooooooommmmmm........
 
SUPER hyper grace is then — Super heresy!



JLB


SUPER Retort! You still got it.....lol.....gotta go.....be back with more “ Heresies” after my Harley ride......we need to discuss “ ALL things are Lawful” like Paul , speaking as always as Jesus “ Secretary” said ......once again—- “ Hang on to your wigs and keys”......
 
It’s not that you “ CAN” sin while God does His Job Of Transforming you into the Image Of His Son —— the Truth is , you WILL sin as long as you are in a Body Of Flesh.....The Holy Spirit That God puts within you, once you Trust Him ALONE to Save you , does not take the New Believer From Sinner To Perfect Saint overnight . Grace is what God uses to Cover those Sins until He gets You Home.
You aren't addressing the issue. You're the one who isn't listening.
This isn't about believers in Christ still sinning. We all know we will.
This is about PURPOSELY sinning after becoming a Christian because you are under grace.
Freegrace doctrine says you can not be condemned by sinning purposely because salvation is not by works.
The Bible, on the other hand, says something quite different:

"26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” d and again, “The Lord will judge his people.” e 31It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." - Hebrews 10:26-31

This is the point you have been deflecting.

If one is a Believer in The Gospel Of 1Cor15:1-4, if you Believe That Jesus died for your Sins and rose from the Dead, you are Saved.Period.It is a Promise of God and God can’t lie....Adding to that Gospel, thinking that Gospel MUST be added to because even though it might be “Essential” to Salvation, it, by itself , is just not “ Adequate” for Salvation...
Paul’s Gospel is NOT what man does for God —— it is what God has done for man.It is a Gospel Of GRACE Plus NOTHING. Adding to that Gospel with ANY Act Of Human Effort ( which is what religion is, NOT Christianity ) automatically cancels the very Grace That Saves a person.....Romans 11:6..... “ If it be by Works , it is No Longer Grace”. Works and Grace is like oil and water— they won’t mix...
You not purposely sinning in order to stay saved is not a works gospel.
This is where you are not getting it.

Works definitely have no power to save the believer, but they will surely condemn the believer to hell IF THEY TRAMPLE ON THE ONE AND ONLY SACRIFICE FOR SIN THERE IS IN WILLFUL AND DELIBERATE UNBELIEF. Even you know full well salvation is secured through faith apart from works. If you don't have that faith anymore you no longer have access to the salvation faith secures. That's not a works gospel. This is the point you are not addressing.
 
Methinks you are getting desperate .....please show us all where I claim to have anything “ Special” ...... I just understand the Bible better than you do...
In your claim to having superior Biblical understanding how is it that you completely miss the fact that Jesus says little ones who believe in him can be made to stumble so as to go to hell? (Mark 9:42,43,44,45,46,47,48 Matthew 18:6,7,8,9)

You apparently don't understand the Bible very well at all.
Stop deflecting and explain to us how we are blind to the truth in these plain words while you are not.
 
Yes, one can turn from serving Satan and become regenerated through the Spiritual rebirth and indwelled with the Holy Spirit, John 3:5-7, as they are drawn to God's calling them. We were all sinners at one time before coming to Christ and submitting ourselves to Him. Those who turn away from God were never His own to begin with as they only give lip service to the Lord, but truly do not have Him in their heart or else they would not turn away.

If it can be argued those that turn from God were never really saved, then those that turn from Satan were never really lost? How/why can it be one way but not the other?

For one to turn from God implies he first must have been of God. One cannot turn from God if he was never of God.
Eze 3:20 "Again, when a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteous deeds which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thy hand."
Also Eze 18:26-27.

Ezekiel is talking about apostates, those who have moved away from a previous standing, that is, moved from a previous standing of being righteous to being wicked and lost.
 
Thanks Teach.....I will try to return later to straighten out all of your misunderstandings about my “ Heretical” Doctrine Of “ Nothing But The Blood Of Jesus for our Salvation” ......Boy.....I sure am glad I don’t find myself on the Wrong Side Of THAT debate !
Right now, it’s time for a nice ride on my Sinful Harley......and thank God for His Grace .....Later, Blind Guides! Vrrrrrrrrooooooommmmmm........

Grace is the Holy Spirit; the Spirit of grace.

Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? Hebrews 10:28-29

  • who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?


Grace teaches us —

For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age,
Titus 2:11-12

  • teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age,


Grace is God’s power and ability given to us, (unmerited) to enable us to live our lives in a way that we couldn’t do before He filled us with His Spirit.

Empowering us to walk in the Spirit, so that we don’t fulfill the lusts of the flesh.


I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. Galatians 5:16


Do you believe that being led by the Spirit is somehow a doctrine of works, where we are trying to be self righteous?


Only born again Christians have the ability to walk according to the Spirit, and be led by the Spirit.


Walking by the power of the Spirit is His yoke that is easy, and His burden that is light.

This is the life of rest and peace.


Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”
Matthew 11:28-30


His Commandments are not burdensome;
  • because we have the power of the Spirit that enables us to live in dominion over sin;
The power to walk in the light as He is in the light.

The power to love, even our enemies.

The power to forgive even someone who has murdered our child.

The power to overcome.




JLB
 
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You aren't addressing the issue. You're the one who isn't listening.
This isn't about believers in Christ still sinning. We all know we will.
This is about PURPOSELY sinning after becoming a Christian because you are under grace.
Freegrace doctrine says you can not be condemned by sinning purposely because salvation is not by works.
The Bible, on the other hand, says something quite different:

"26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” d and again, “The Lord will judge his people.” e 31It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." - Hebrews 10:26-31

This is the point you have been deflecting.


You not purposely sinning in order to stay saved is not a works gospel.
This is where you are not getting it.

Works definitely have no power to save the believer, but they will surely condemn the believer to hell IF THEY TRAMPLE ON THE ONE AND ONLY SACRIFICE FOR SIN THERE IS IN WILLFUL AND DELIBERATE UNBELIEF. Even you know full well salvation is secured through faith apart from works. If you don't have that faith anymore you no longer have access to the salvation faith secures. That's not a works gospel. This is the point you are not addressing.


You simply do not understand Hebrews 10.....please at least, CONSIDER what others have to say about Heb 6 and 10......Google “ A W Tozer”.......Andrew Farley .....Renee Roland or “ Jesus Without Religion” and get the clear, easy to understand explanation of these verses....
Your entire “ take” on Scripture revolves around an erroneous view of Paul warning Hebrews who were sitting on the fence in regard to whether or not to accept the Gospel , to NOT go back to Animal Sacrifices.Because Of The “ once and for all “ Sacrifice That Jesus performed on the Cross—- The Entire Old Testament Sacrificial System was now a complete waste of time ....there no longer is “ a sacrifice for sin”. Now that the Jews have had the Truth revealed to them that all of their Sacrifices pointed to the Sacrifice Of Jesus on the Cross .....they would be “ willfully sinning” to go back to the Temple and slaughter bulls and goats ......they are not Sinning out Of ignorance anymore—- they are knowingly Sinning now—- treating the Blood Of Jesus as if it were nothing.....they are “ trampling” upon it......
Please devote an hour or two for checking out the opinions of God-Sent Teachers and take the confusion and scariness out of theses verses.....let me know what you think about other views on theses verses.....I used to freak out when I read these passages years ago..Context is EVERYTHING as we “Rightly Divide” God's Word ....These Scary verses were addressed to those that NEEDED TO HEAR THEM......the Hebrews.......hence, the Name Of That Book....May God bless us all in the understanding of these important matters ......
 
You simply do not understand Hebrews 10.....please at least, CONSIDER what others have to say about Heb 6 and 10......Google “ A W Tozer”.......Andrew Farley .....Renee Roland or “ Jesus Without Religion” and get the clear, easy to understand explanation of these verses....
Your entire “ take” on Scripture revolves around an erroneous view of Paul warning Hebrews who were sitting on the fence in regard to whether or not to accept the Gospel , to NOT go back to Animal Sacrifices.Because Of The “ once and for all “ Sacrifice That Jesus performed on the Cross—- The Entire Old Testament Sacrificial System was now a complete waste of time ....there no longer is “ a sacrifice for sin”. Now that the Jews have had the Truth revealed to them that all of their Sacrifices pointed to the Sacrifice Of Jesus on the Cross .....they would be “ willfully sinning” to go back to the Temple and slaughter bulls and goats ......they are not Sinning out Of ignorance anymore—- they are knowingly Sinning now—- treating the Blood Of Jesus as if it were nothing.....they are “ trampling” upon it......
Please devote an hour or two for checking out the opinions of God-Sent Teachers and take the confusion and scariness out of theses verses.....let me know what you think about other views on theses verses.....I used to freak out when I read these passages years ago..Context is EVERYTHING as we “Rightly Divide” God's Word ....These Scary verses were addressed to those that NEEDED TO HEAR THEM......the Hebrews.......hence, the Name Of That Book....May God bless us all in the understanding of these important matters ......

The warning was to not depart from (desert) Christ and return to Judaism.

Obviously they were in Christ if they were warned not to depart from Him, thus returning to unbelief.

It’s exactly the same thing Jesus taught in the parable of the sower; exactly to the same people.

Unbelieving Jews living in Israel are relentless in persecuting those who have turned to Christ, so as to stop them from spreading their testimony.

Their message is Jesus is a false teacher and a false prophet.

Those with little depth of understanding that Jesus Christ is indeed Lord; YHWH the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, fall into the temptation to believe Jesus is a false prophet and they desert Christ and return to Judaism.

Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. Hebrews 3:12-14


again same context of a person who has definitely repented and therefore partaken of the Holy Spirit, but has fallen away from Christ.


For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.
Hebrews 6:4-8



That is the context of Hebrews 3 through 10, and ends in the last verse of Hebrews 10 —

But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul. Hebrews 10:39



Again, if a soldier deserts the army, it by default means they we’re at one time “in the army“.



You therefore must endure hardship as a good soldier of Jesus Christ. No one engaged in warfare entangles himself with the affairs of this life, that he may please him who enlisted him as a soldier. 2 Timothy 2:3-4


The entire book of Hebrews was written to give these Hebrew Christians a “depth of understanding” (a deep root system) of who Christ is;

YHWH the Lord. The High Priest According to Melchizedek.

So when the false narrative from unbelieving Jews starts, saying Jesus is a deceiver and false prophet in order to get them to depart from Christ, back to Judaism, they will have a depth of understanding to sustain them in this time of temptation, enabling them to endure to the end, and therefore be saved.




JLB
 
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JLB says "
There is no such thing as resting in the Gospel."
Don't know who said it, many moons ago.....

Jesus Christ is our rest and peace.

Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”
Matthew 11:28-30

This is the life of rest and peace.


His Commandments are not burdensome;

  • because we have the power of the Spirit that enables us to live in dominion over sin;
The power to walk in the light as He is in the light.

The power to love, even our enemies.

The power to forgive even someone who has murdered our child.

The power to overcome.

We are “yoked“ with Christ, whereas He empowers us, by His grace, by His Spirit to live the Christian life; Him living His righteous life through us.

This is rest and peace, unlike the yoke of bondage of keeping the law of Moses.

Therefore we live by His mighty power working in us.


Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus. To this end I also labor, striving according to His working which works in me mightily. Colossians 1:28-29



Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.





JLB
 
Jesus Christ is our rest and peace.

Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”
Matthew 11:28-30

This is the life of rest and peace.


His Commandments are not burdensome;

  • because we have the power of the Spirit that enables us to live in dominion over sin;
The power to walk in the light as He is in the light.

The power to love, even our enemies.

The power to forgive even someone who has murdered our child.

The power to overcome.

We are “yoked“ with Christ, whereas He empowers us, by His grace, by His Spirit to live the Christian life; Him living His righteous life through us.

This is rest and peace, unlike the yoke of bondage of keeping the law of Moses.

Therefore we live by His mighty power working in us.


Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus. To this end I also labor, striving according to His working which works in me mightily. Colossians 1:28-29



Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.





JLB
Yes, it was many moons ago.
 
You simply do not understand Hebrews 10....
I just unlocked this thread so I'm not looking back on previous pists. This is a fresh start.


Consider this a friendly nudge. We all understand Scripture to the degree God has granted us each grace. As scripture says, think higher of your brother than yourself. Or, at least give the benefit of the doubt.

When we use those types of words, it only draws our courser words and divisions are created.
 
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