Test what you have been taught

[lovely]

Gendou Ikari,

Gendou wrote:

I will translate this to show the true impact of his statement.

God is Love and he wants his followers to be loving. Anyone who questions God's perfect love will have to spend a tortuous eternity in hell. Thank you loving God for your great Love towards us.

Gendou, I have been praying for you since I first noticed that you have doubted God to the point of possibly being given over to your sin. Even before you asked for it in the prayer forum. I know that you did not think this way when you first came to this board, and for that reason I pray that God restore you as my little brother again. Re-read your quote. The impact is because of your heart, not God. You have turned from Him, not the other way around. In order for you to translate it, you had to twist it...do you see that? I pray you do for your sake. Your doubt, which is caused by those very ones who want to deceive you (look up birds in Scripture), is leading you to a point where you are unstable in your ways, and being blown about by every wind of doctrine. "What is truth?" is that the question on your heart? Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and no man cometh unto the Father but by Him. I say this to you openly, because you have shared your doubt openly in prayer requests, and other posts. I love you, and really do care that you have turned your heart against God for the counterfeit religions, and an empty walk in lies that lead to destruction. I ask you, do you have purpose in your life now, a vision? Your quote here shows me the condition of your heart, and I pray for you very sincerely. Please repent, and turn back to God...Trust Him above all that is out there, and He will honor your trust by keeping His promises to you. He has loved you by providing an atonement for your sin...His Holy Son. The Lord bless you.

 

[Atonement]

StoveBolts Shalom does mean hello or goodbye. But I think you were trying to ask maybe about the word Sheol??

 

[Gendou Ikari]

Gendou, I have been praying for you since I first noticed that you have doubted God to the point of possibly being given over to your sin. Even before you asked for it in the prayer forum. I know that you did not think this way when you first came to this board, and for that reason I pray that God restore you as my little brother again. Re-read your quote. The impact is because of your heart, not God. You have turned from Him, not the other way around. In order for you to translate it, you had to twist it...do you see that? I pray you do for your sake. Your doubt, which is caused by those very ones who want to deceive you (look up birds in Scripture), is leading you to a point where you are unstable in your ways, and being blown about by every wind of doctrine. "What is truth?" is that the question on your heart? Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and no man cometh unto the Father but by Him. I say this to you openly, because you have shared your doubt openly in prayer requests, and other posts. I love you, and really do care that you have turned your heart against God for the counterfeit religions, and an empty walk in lies that lead to destruction. I ask you, do you have purpose in your life now, a vision? Your quote here shows me the condition of your heart, and I pray for you very sincerely. Please repent, and turn back to God...Trust Him above all that is out there, and He will honor your trust by keeping His promises to you. He has loved you by providing an atonement for your sin...His Holy Son. The Lord bless you.

I have no purpose, that is the bloody problem. The way you talk about your God, it makes Him seem so loving and caring, but for all ******** eternity He is going to torture human souls. How can I worship that and call that Holy?

 

[Vic C.]

God doesn't turture any souls for eternity. Can someone show me where it says this in scripture? You may find scripture that suggests God may allow it, but I doubt there is scripture that says HE HIMSELF does it.

Also, lets not get into a full blown UR debate or topics WILL be locked and people WILL be suspended. Please see updated Stickey at the top of this forum's page.

 

[Gendou Ikari]

God doesn't turture any souls for eternity. Can someone show me where it says this in scripture? You may find scripture that suggests God may allow it, but I doubt there is scripture that says HE HIMSELF does it.

Also, lets not get into a full blown UR debate or topics WILL be locked and people WILL be suspended. Please see updated Stickey at the top of this forum's page.

I am not debating Universal Reconciliation. As I have told you, I don't believe in it exactly.

Vic you believe in Annihilation which is infinitely more merciful than eternal torture.

 

[Atonement]

The problem here is, no man is sent to enternal damnation by God. Man sends themself there. But, it's mans pride and selfishness and denies this very fact. They always want to point a finger to God or something else. No body wants to take responsibility for thier own actions..

 

[stovebolts]

StoveBolts Shalom does mean hello or goodbye. But I think you were trying to ask maybe about the word Sheol??

Thanks for giving me the benifit of the doubt.

In modern times, it may perhaps mean hello and goodbye as I've been told it's the phat thing to say nowadays if yer Jewish.

But in a biblical sense, it is much more than "hello" or "goodbye" let alone peace. Shalom was associated with a promise. It's an ideological concept that dates back to war and peace in the ancient world. To have YHWH's Shalom, was to be in his inner circle or better known as the "Elected". To be outside of God's Shalom, was destruction.

When Israel obey's, there is Shalom. When they don't... well, they've lost YHWH's Shalom. Deuteronomy 32

Election is nothing new to the bible. Jacob and Esau is a prime example. When I speak of Election, I'm not talking about some charasmatic, agnostic, mystical word. I'm simply talking about those whow YHWH chose as His people. To keep this simple, lets just stick to the OT Israelites.

Numbers 6:24-26: The Lord bless you and keep you. The Lord make His face shine upon you and be gracious to you. The Lord lift up His face upon you and give you SHALOM.

Gendou,
I know it's a tough subject to wrestle with. Jacob also wrestled with God...
Jesus tells us not to worry, for who can add a day to his life by worrying?
Instead, persue his kingdom and his righteousness, then, you will experience YHWH's Shalom.

 

[Dave...]

I have no purpose, that is the bloody problem. The way you talk about your God, it makes Him seem so loving and caring, but for all ******** eternity He is going to torture human souls. How can I worship that and call that Holy?

By torture, do you mean eternal seperation from God?

 

[stovebolts]

I understad your delima. It is one that many Christian’s will struggle with if they ever delve deep enough into Scripture.

What you’re reading in Lev and Deut is the partial story of YHWH revealing himself to his people. I don’t want to sugarcoat the OT, but I don’t want to dramatize it either. Let me just state that YHWH’s mercy and grace are more abundant than his wrath.

Think of it like this. Israel was the smallest nation around. What made them a nation was not a land, but their unity that formed a community, for they did not have a land of their own, rather, they were slaves in a foreign land (Egypt). YHWH heard their cries and released them from their oppression.

There were many God’s as YHWH was only one of many from the ancient near east. YHWH was feared because he took out the Egyptian God’s and because he took out the other pagan God’s as well. Think about it, if Israel went down, YHWH would have gone down as a false God just like the other God’s that surrounded Him. Although YHWH is a great warrior, he is also merciful and full of grace. More so than most give him credit for. Hence, YHWH is love as shown through his great patience.

The scriptures you posted are legitimate, but you have to consider that the people agreed upon the terms at the bottom of Mr. Horeb. The covenant was conditionary as it forced Israel as a community to depend on YHWH’s grace, and that was conditioned on their faith as they traveled in the desert seeking the Promised Land. YHWH was strict because Israel was to be a light to the nations around them.

Some of us, Gendou, wander the desert in search of that land, but it is always through God’s grace that Shalom is received.

 

[Gendou Ikari]

None of the above makes murder justifiable. You can say YHWH was protecting his people and his image in the process, but what is it worth if you gain the world and lose your soul?

 

[Vic C.]

The problem here is, no man is sent to enternal damnation by God. Man sends themself there. But, it's mans pride and selfishness and denies this very fact. They always want to point a finger to God or something else. No body wants to take responsibility for thier own actions..

Wow, that was my point in a nutshell. Thanks for elaborating.

Vic you believe in Annihilation which is infinitely more merciful than eternal torture.

I lean that way, yes, but I wouldn't go as far as saying it's what I believe, carved in stone. It still leads to being eternally seperated from God, with no chance of it ever being "overturned". I don't believe in second chances.

 

[stovebolts]

Again,
Although I won't go into great detail, I understand you view. May I offer you look at it through a different lense?

None of the above makes murder justifiable. You can say YHWH was protecting his people and his image in the process, but what is it worth if you gain the world and lose your soul?

How can YHWH gain what is already his? The thing is, YHWH didn't simply protect Israel, he delivered them. See if this rings a bell.

It is by grace through faith that you are saved... It's all there...

To gain the world, is to endulge yourself in worldly wealth and desires. Can YHWH do this? I believe scripture states that where your heart is, there you will find your treasure. YHWH's heart was always for His people. The two greatest commandments are to Love YHWH with all your heart and all your soul. The second greatest is to love your neigbor as yourself. Obedience is bound in faith, and faith is bound in grace.

What you call murder, is what the Israelites would have called obedience because through obedience, was the promise of Shalom.

 

[Spirit Driven]

WOA......Now wait just a minute people..... the purpose of this thread was to test what you have been taught.

How about we get back to where we started...... we already know that nobody can resist the Will of God.

Now has anybody here been taught or suggested too in any way at all, that you will be able to succesfully resist the Will of God.

That you will be able to go against the Will of God.

That you Will have your way and God Will not ?

That you will put yourself in a situation that God did not want for you ?

That the out come of your life will not be what God planned for it ?

So has anybody been taught any of the above, even though we know that, nobody can resist Gods Will.....

Peace

 

[Gendou Ikari]

The problem here is, no man is sent to enternal damnation by God. Man sends themself there. But, it's mans pride and selfishness and denies this very fact. They always want to point a finger to God or something else. No body wants to take responsibility for thier own actions..

It would be silly to believe people send themselves to eternal hell-fire; sending yourself to separation makes more sense.

Even eternal separation makes little sense. What loving Father would leave his son in Eternal Darkness? I know I wouldn't.

What you call murder, is what the Israelites would have called obedience because through obedience, was the promise of Shalom.

Where have I heard murder called obedience to God before. Oh, yeah, that is right. The Muslims are carrying out their obedience to God in Israeli right now, blowing up the unbelievers. :roll:

 

[Atonement]

It would be silly to believe people send themselves to eternal hell-fire; sending yourself to separation makes more sense.

Even eternal separation makes little sense. What loving Father would leave his son in Eternal Darkness? I know I wouldn't.

What son would not follow his loving Father's advise. Knowing that there is a consequence to be paid.. I know I would'nt.

By the way, those left in separation for eternally are not God's children. Infact Jesus never knew them.. Why? Because they never accept His Grace for forgiveness..

Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

 

[jgredline]

Thanks for giving me the benifit of the doubt.

In modern times, it may perhaps mean hello and goodbye as I've been told it's the phat thing to say nowadays if yer Jewish.

But in a biblical sense, it is much more than "hello" or "goodbye" let alone peace. Shalom was associated with a promise. It's an ideological concept that dates back to war and peace in the ancient world. To have YHWH's Shalom, was to be in his inner circle or better known as the "Elected". To be outside of God's Shalom, was destruction.

When Israel obey's, there is Shalom. When they don't... well, they've lost YHWH's Shalom. Deuteronomy 32

Election is nothing new to the bible. Jacob and Esau is a prime example. When I speak of Election, I'm not talking about some charasmatic, agnostic, mystical word. I'm simply talking about those whow YHWH chose as His people. To keep this simple, lets just stick to the OT Israelites.

Numbers 6:24-26: The Lord bless you and keep you. The Lord make His face shine upon you and be gracious to you. The Lord lift up His face upon you and give you SHALOM.

Gendou,
I know it's a tough subject to wrestle with. Jacob also wrestled with God...
Jesus tells us not to worry, for who can add a day to his life by worrying?
Instead, persue his kingdom and his righteousness, then, you will experience YHWH's Shalom.

Jeff
This was a great, great post and so right on. I enjoy great bible teaching.
Thanks javier

 

[Gendou Ikari]

What son would not follow his loving Father's advise. Knowing that there is a consequence to be paid.. I know I wouldn't.

Perhaps it would be easier if God manifested Himself before all of Humanity and told us what He wants, but no, He has to be all mystical and distant. He is basically making us walk over an Abyss, on a flimsy wooden bridge. If you fall, too bad.

 

[jgredline]

WOA......Now wait just a minute people..... the purpose of this thread was to test what you have been taught.

How about we get back to where we started...... we already know that nobody can resist the Will of God.
This statement is not true. God gave us a free will. We have the choice to accept or reject him, Free will was established in the Garden, Eve had a choice as to eat the fruit or not.

Now has anybody here been taught or suggested too in any way at all, that you will be able to succesfully resist the Will of God.
Again. One only needs to read the Bible to see that God gave us a free will. God Is not a puppet master pulling strings. Simply look at the bad choices King David, made, or Saul. I could name a ton of them.

That you will be able to go against the Will of God.
You only need to look at Israel when they wanted a king.

That you Will have your way and God Will not ?
The reason that all will NOT BE SAVED is because God gives each and every person the choice to accept or reject him. God will NOT force himself on anyone.

That you will put yourself in a situation that God did not want for you ?
This happens all the time with his sheep.

That the out come of your life will not be what God planned for it ?
Gods plan is for all to be saved. Is that going to happen? NO!!! For those that are HIS SHEEP God has promised eternal Life to. That is Gods promise to us.

So has anybody been taught any of the above, even though we know that, nobody can resist Gods Will.....
Again. Show me the Book, chapter and verse where this is taught. I look forward to your reply.

Peace

Spirit
I put my very simple answers in blue

 

[Atonement]

Perhaps it would be easier if God manifested Himself before all of Humanity and told us what He wants, but no, He has to be all mystical and distant. He is basically making us walk over an Abyss, on a flimsy wooden bridge. If you fall, too bad.

No.. God already manifested Himself in the flesh through Jesus Christ. All that needed to be done was done. We have His Word, if you read it, you will know what He wants. Now God leaves it up to each one of us to find Him through the Blood that was shed at the Cross.

You sound just like Thomas..

Wide is gate that leads to destruction
narrow is the gate that leads to eternal life

 

[mutzrein]

Enquiring minds want to know what God rebuilt concerning the eternal position of the unsaved, mutzrein?

I'm pushed for time so can only make a brief statement without getting into the detail. The issue has massive ramifications for Christendom and I suspect the religious would want me hung drawn and quartered for stating it.

But in a nutshell, it is this. Man is born without a spirit. It is the spirit that gives life - eternal life. Those who are not born of the Spirit, since they do not have eternal life, perish. And by this I mean no life after death, no judgement, no heaven, no hell. They perish just as the beast in the field.

How did this come about? Through Adam all died. And how are those who receive life, given life? Through Christ all live. Now I'm not saying ALL live. I am saying that ONLY through Christ is life imparted - by means of the Spirit of God which gives birth to our spirit.

There is much much more to this and at the moment time doesn't allow me to provide exposition. Sorry.

Your thoughts?