Test what you have been taught

[Dave...]

None of the above makes murder justifiable. You can say YHWH was protecting his people and his image in the process, but what is it worth if you gain the world and lose your soul?

Since God does not contradict Himself and God does not lie, God cannot lie. God says, “Thou shalt not lie.†How do you answer someone that says to you, God also says, “Thou shalt not kill.†And yet, God sometimes kills.

Answer

Now the word in the Hebrew, in Exodus 20, which is used for “Thou shalt not kill,.†is “Thou shalt not murder,†and the assumption in the term is that it is an illicit murder; that it is an unjust killing. Okay?

The question is a difficult question if you push it to its limit, because the truth of the matter is everybody who lives, lives because God gave them life and everybody who dies, dies because God is in control of who lives and who dies and when they die. So ultimately everybody who dies, dies because God has allowed a death principle, but the point of Exodus 20 is murder as a crime. God never kills in an iniquitous way. God never kills as a crime. The only time God takes a life would be as a righteous act. Always as a righteous act. A righteous act for His own glory one way or another. It could be that that righteous act was a righteous act on behalf of one of His redeemed saints, that He wanted to bring into His own presence. It could be that that righteous act was an act of judgment upon evil, but always when God takes a life it is a righteous act, and so we start with the character of God. Basically the Old Testament in total is designed to communicate to us the character of God: God is Holy, Holy, Holy. Therefore, if God takes a life, it is a Holy act. God does not murder. God does not indiscriminately and unjustly and iniquitously take life. The truth of the matter is, looking at it this way, if God killed instantaneously every person on the earth it would be an act of righteousness. Because every person on the earth is a sinner and the wages of sin is what? Death. So it is mercy that any of us are spared--and grace.

http://www.biblebb.com/files/macqa/85-1-5.htm

We all deserve hell because God is Holy and just and we are all guilty before Him. This is what God's justice requires, perfect obedience. But He is also a merciful God who has provided a way in His Son Jesus Christ for those who have faith in Him.

Nobody is predestined to hell. They are simply left to their own fallen natures.

Hebrews 5:14 But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Some of you are not yet ready for this discussion. If you are looking for an excuse not to believe, God will not show you the truth.

 

[destiny]

I'm pushed for time so can only make a brief statement without getting into the detail. The issue has massive ramifications for Christendom and I suspect the religious would want me hung drawn and quartered for stating it.

But in a nutshell, it is this. Man is born without a spirit. It is the spirit that gives life - eternal life. Those who are not born of the Spirit, since they do not have eternal life, perish. And by this I mean no life after death, no judgement, no heaven, no hell. They perish just as the beast in the field.

How did this come about? Through Adam all died. And how are those who receive life, given life? Through Christ all live. Now I'm not saying ALL live. I am saying that ONLY through Christ is life imparted - by means of the Spirit of God which gives birth to our spirit.

There is much much more to this and at the moment time doesn't allow me to provide exposition. Sorry.

Your thoughts?

I admit, thats a new one on me, mutzrein.

My belief is that there is a place the unsaved person goes at the moment of death which is completely void of the presense of God. (A holding place until judgment day)
It will have no light, no peace, no goodness, no grace, no mercy ...it will be under the natural conditions that Gods absence will cause it to be. I believe this in itself will be 'hell'. Simply void of God; those conditions alone are more than we can comprehend.

I believe our perception of what 'hell' entails is about as clear as mud right now.
I also believe that when the wicked stand before the great white throne of judgment they are then cast into the lake of fire. I don't quite know what that entails but i'm sure its horrific.

I have to ask; In your belief how do you get around these verses?...


Revelation 20:12, 15, And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life...And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Matthew 10:28, And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Luke 12:5, But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which AFTER he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

Matthew 18:8, 9 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or feet to be cast into everlasting fire. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

Matthew 25:46, And these shall go away into EVERLASTING punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

II Thessalonians 1:9 Who shall be punished with EVERLASTING destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power.

Isaiah 66:24, And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be abhorring unto all flesh.

Mark 9:44 (speaking of hell), Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Jude 7, Sodom and Gomorrha...are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

 

[mutzrein]

Destiny - I'm not denying the existence of hell at all. It is reserved for those who have received the gift of life and have turned back to their own self righteous and wicked ways.

 

[destiny]

Destiny - I'm not denying the existence of hell at all. It is reserved for those who have received the gift of life and have turned back to their own self righteous and wicked ways.

mutzrein, one more question and then I have to go until hopefully tomorrow sometimes....
What about fortune tellers and channelers of evil spirits. Wouldn't you think their spirits are alive, yet adultrous towards God? There are even those who practice astral projection, where the spirit comes out of their bodies and travels.

 

[mutzrein]

mutzrein, one more question and then I have to go until hopefully tomorrow sometimes....
What about fortune tellers and channelers of evil spirits. Wouldn't you think their spirits are alive, yet adultrous towards God? There are even those who practice astral projection, where the spirit comes out of their bodies and travels.

No, they don't have spirits. They are possessed by evil spirits. It is impossible for the Spirit of God and an evil spirit to inhabit the same dwelling.

 

[jgredline]

Destiny and Mutz
I have been enjoying your debate.
good postings

 

[Spirit Driven]

Spirit
I put my very simple answers in blue

No one can resist His will (Romans 9:19).

In regards to Free Will of Man

The mind of man plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps (Proverbs 16:9).

The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord (Proverbs 16:33).

Many are the plans in a man's heart, but the counsel of the Lord will be established (Proverbs 19:21).

Man's steps are ordained by the Lord (Proverbs 20:24).

Did you relise that you had no say in your hour and day of Birth, or the times you where born in ?
That you had no say in the family, or cultural back ground you where born into and that the hour he takes his breath back from you is also already decided by him....... ?

I think it would be a bad mistake to assume that you made any free will decision of your own account to accept Christ into your life..... or that any other person is able too.... in light of scripture stating the opposite....

No one can come to Christ unless the Father who sent Him draws (Greek: drags) him (John 6:44)

He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires (Romans 9:18).

It does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy (Romans 9:16).

By His doing you are in Christ Jesus (1 Corinthians 1:30).

It was never about anything we could do......Man has a Will.... and we are Will full, but as scripture tells us...It does not depend on the man who wills

Its about....No one can resist His will (Romans 9:19).


Peace

 

[stovebolts]

Perhaps it would be easier if God manifested Himself before all of Humanity and told us what He wants, but no, He has to be all mystical and distant. He is basically making us walk over an Abyss, on a flimsy wooden bridge. If you fall, too bad.

Gendou,
YHWH has manifested himself before all Humanity, it's all in how you choose to view Him. If you say that YHWH is a murderer, then what your saying, is that you don't understand God's purpose. Again, it took Jacob a bit to realize this too so don't feel left out. Heck, I still strugle with stuff here and there myself.
Don't take this the wrong way, but it seems your looking for heaven on earth and blaming God for all the world's woe's. Sorry to tell you this, but life's not fair and the Bible isn't a fairy tale. This life, as we know it is what we have. YHWH doesn't make you walk over an abyss. What he does, is allows you to see the abyss and if you choose to build a flimsy wooden bridge to cross it when you could have made a nice solid, steel bridge, then it just goes to show the effort that you put into discerning the materials that were available to you.

God Bless

 

[stovebolts]

Razor,
Your post is witch craft based on humanism.

Personally, I'm tired of the UR innuendoes.

 

[Spirit Driven]

My post is based on the Good News of the Gospel... actual scripture available for anybody to read from any bible.

The Gospel tells us, plainly, that nobody can resist the Will of God.

No one can resist His will (Romans 9:19).

As Christians we should not be surprised by this surely......is there anybody that still believes that the Will of God can be resisted ?

Even though scripture has just told us nobody can...


Peace

 

[stovebolts]

Razor,
I think you’ll find that I’ve been discussing that verse all along and how it speaks of YHWH’s shalom.

Romans 9:6 It is not as though the word of God had failed. For not all those who are descended from Israel are truly Israel, 9:7 nor are all the children Abraham’s true descendants; rather “through Isaac will your descendants be counted.†9:8 This means it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God; rather, the children of promise are counted as descendants. 9:9 For this is what the promise declared: “About a year from now I will return and Sarah will have a son.†9:10 Not only that, but when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our ancestor Isaac – 9:11 even before they were born or had done anything good or bad (so that God’s purpose in election would stand, not by works but by his calling) – 9:12 it was said to her, “The older will serve the younger,†9:13 just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.â€Â

Interesting that Jacob, the younger was elected. Seems to be a theme in the OT eh? Funny how Moses states that the older is to receive the inheritance huh? BTW, did you know what happened to Esau? His tribe became the Edomites. Ironically, Moses tells the Israels to call the Edomites Brother.

Well, the story goes that the Edomites war against Israel and as a nation, are destroyed. But whats more ironic, is that Herod (from Jesus day, you remember the guy right?) is said to be a descendent of the Edomites. Things that make ya ponder for a moment huh?

But this really only shows us a pattern in history for the inner layer. Go out a layer and we see that both Jacob and Esau were from Isaac. Who was Isaac’s father? Abraham. Who were Abraham’s children? Both lines still exist and are very strong today. May I suggest that history repeats itself.

Romans 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice with God? Absolutely not! 9:15 For he says to Moses: “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.†9:16 So then, it does not depend on human desire or exertion, but on God who shows mercy. 9:17 For the scripture says to Pharaoh: “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may demonstrate my power in you, and that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth.†9:18 So then, God has mercy on whom he chooses to have mercy, and he hardens whom he chooses to harden.

Pharaoh was proclaimed as Ra incarnate. That is to say, God in man’s form. He was said to have the authority over life and death. The Exodus is a story of a great spiritual battle where YHWH eventually shows that he is a great warrior in the eyes of his chosen people. http://padfieldconsulting.com/history/e ... ues-1.html

Romans 9:19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who has ever resisted his will?†9:20 But who indeed are you – a mere human being – to talk back to God? Does what is molded say to the molder, “Why have you made me like this?†9:21 Has the potter no right to make from the same lump of clay one vessel for special use and another for ordinary use? 9:22 But what if God, willing to demonstrate his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the objects of wrath prepared for destruction?4 9:23 And what if he is willing to make known the wealth of his glory on the objects of mercy that he has prepared beforehand for glory – 9:24 even us, whom he has called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

In full context (bibliography), I disagree with your presuppositions

 

[jgredline]

Jeff
Great exposition and commentary on Romans 9
You have saved me some work and taught me few things as well.
Thank you!

This is why I keep preaching that Context is key to understanding what the bible has to say. Epistles are just that. Letters. Letters tell a story. Stories to be understood must be put into context.

Spirit driven
You make the comman mistake of taking single verses out of context and as a result you come out with false teaching and looking very foolish.
Example. '' Judas went out and hung himself'' '' Go out and do likewise''
I am sure you heard this before right? its a classic example of making the scriptures say what you want them to say. You should consider a class in hermenutics. Once you start to study the Bible properly, you will be able to ditch this UR stuff you so believe in.

 

[jgredline]

Here are some verses where the bible clearly states we have a free will to make choices. I will keep it short, but would encourage you to look them up on your own to check the context.

Mark 8:36
36 For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?


Mark 15:6–14; Luke 23:17–23; John 18:39, 40
15 Now at the feast the governor was accustomed to releasing to the multitude one prisoner whom they wished. 16 And at that time they had a notorious prisoner called Barabbas. 17 Therefore, when they had gathered together, Pilate said to them, “Whom do you want me to release to you? Barabbas, or Jesus who is called Christ?†18 For he knew that they had handed Him over because of envy.
19 While he was sitting on the judgment seat, his wife sent to him, saying, “Have nothing to do with that just Man, for I have suffered many things today in a dream because of Him.â€Â
20 But the chief priests and elders persuaded the multitudes that they should ask for Barabbas and destroy Jesus. 21 The governor answered and said to them, “Which of the two do you want me to release to you?â€Â
They said, “Barabbas!â€Â
22 Pilate said to them, “What then shall I do with Jesus who is called Christ?â€Â
They all said to him, “



1 Kings 18:21
21 And Elijah came to all the people, and said, “How long will you falter between two opinions? If the Lord is God, follow Him; but if Baal, follow him.†But the people answered him not a word.



Matthew 6:14-15
14 “For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.


James 5:19-20
19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.



John 20:23
23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.â€Â


And lastly I will close with this, because this is what people who believe in puppet master theoplogy throw out and so I am sure its coming. I will save you the time.

Did Pharaoh Have a Chance?
If God “hardened†Pharaoh’s heart (Ex. 9:12), did the ruler really have a fair chance to heed God’s command to “let My people go� Or was he a hapless pawn in God’s plan to emancipate His chosen people?
Pharaoh had as fair a chance as any other person to hear and obey the Lord, but he used his encounter with the living God as a singular opportunity to “prove†his determination and might. This becomes plain when we understand that “hardening†means the “strengthening†of his heart or will.
God did not intervene in Pharaoh’s decisions in a way that took control of Pharaoh’s will. Pharaoh kept complete controlâ€â€and responsibilityâ€â€over his choices. Apparently God had made him to be what we would call a strong-willed individual. So it’s not surprising that he was determined to resist God’s plan. When the text says that God “hardened†or “strengthened†his heart, it is a way of saying that Pharaoh became even more determined; he was acting even more like the strong-willed person that God had made him to be.
It’s interesting that not every Egyptian had the same response to the plagues as Pharaoh did. A number of them joined the Hebrews and left in the Exodus (Ex. 12:38). Furthermore, even some of Pharaoh ¢s own magicians confessed that the miracles of Moses and Aaron were “the finger of God†(Ex. 8:19).

Well, if these few verses do convince you that we have a free will, then I could give you more, but that will likley be wasting my time. For now I have an engine to build, so I am out.

 

[Gendou Ikari]

Gendou,
YHWH has manifested himself before all Humanity, it's all in how you choose to view Him. If you say that YHWH is a murderer, then what your saying, is that you don't understand God's purpose. Again, it took Jacob a bit to realize this too so don't feel left out. Heck, I still strugle with stuff here and there myself.
Don't take this the wrong way, but it seems your looking for heaven on earth and blaming God for all the world's woe's. Sorry to tell you this, but life's not fair and the Bible isn't a fairy tale. This life, as we know it is what we have. YHWH doesn't make you walk over an abyss. What he does, is allows you to see the abyss and if you choose to build a flimsy wooden bridge to cross it when you could have made a nice solid, steel bridge, then it just goes to show the effort that you put into discerning the materials that were available to you.

And this helps the poor souls in Africa how? They are obviously going to fall.

As for YHWH, I am not blaming this God for all of the world's woes. I don't even believe in the God of Christendom anymore. I am not satisfied with saying God has a purpose to the innocent killing of children. I want to know that purpose before bowing to Him and I want a edit good answer for such an evil act. It seems in Christendom, God is above all law, expecting us to remain civil and loving, yet He is not willing to do the same.

Edit made by Atonement 10/10/06 @ 8:51 PT

 

[Atonement]

Gendou Ikari,
Are you higher than God? Could you possibly know His ways? You can not trust Him so how can you know Him?? I see that you like to question God alot. Is that because you want to know Him, or because your trying to validate your reason not to trust Him?? All the answers are in the Book that you won't read. God gave man a freewill, and God promised He will not stand in our way. And mankind has such an evil heart: we kill one another, lie to one another, rape one another, steal from one another etc etc. God looked down and saw that we needed to be forgiven before we could once again have fellowship with Him. So God created this awesome plan for salvation. Some accept it and some don't. Some even think it's foolish -The Cross- but to us (believers) it's the power of God..

 

[Gendou Ikari]

Gendou Ikari,
Are you higher than God? Could you possibly know His ways? You can not trust Him so how can you know Him?? I see that you like to question God alot. Is that because you want to know Him, or because your trying to validate your reason not to trust Him?? All the answers are in the Book that you won't read. God gave man a freewill, and God promised He will not stand in our way. And mankind has such an evil heart: we kill one another, lie to one another, rape one another, steal from one another etc etc. God looked down and saw that we needed to be forgiven before we could once again have fellowship with Him. So God created this awesome plan for salvation. Some accept it and some don't. Some even think it's foolish -The Cross- but to us (believers) it's the power of God..

I am not against the idea of the Cross. I think the Salvation part is beautiful, but I hate the Hell part with every last fiber of my being. God created us and you say gave us free will, yet we do not have free enough will not to sin. We were created corrupt beings. It is not our fault we were built this way. I did not ask to be created, though I am glad I was. If I was created corrupt by God, then he is at least partially responsible for the way I act, and should not throw me in Hell for all eternity, for being less than He is, because this is how He created me.

If Adam is really responsible for our present depravity then perhaps He should get the blame. That would not make sense, however, because God did create Him with the ability to sin. God cannot sin, and He is judging other, whom he created with the ability to sin, because of their sins.

 

[Atonement]

Well then this is where the Story of Noah comes in. God wanted to destory the entire world and start over because of man's sin. But God found favor in Noah.

Listen if you hate Hell so much, then all you have to do is repent come back to God, and Hell will not be a problem. The way I see it is.. Hell was created by God for the devil and his angels, the Bible states that. What did the devil do? He rebeled against God, and those who do not accept Christ are in rebellion also. And it makes this person no better or worse then the devil himself. Here is something you may or may not know.. Did you know that rebellion is as Witchcraft??


1Sa 15:23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

Sure there are times in my flesh where I ask God questions such as you are (and about the same thing acdtually). But I put my faith in Him daily, and I don't turn my back on Him because I don't have or I dislike the answers. He's GOD and I'm His servant. I trust Him. One day when I'm in Heaven all my questions will be answered, but untill then. I know I'm a sinner and I need the LORD to redeem me from my sin daily. That I may decrease so He may increase in me each day.

 

[Gendou Ikari]

Listen if you hate Hell so much, then all you have to do is repent come back to God, and Hell will not be a problem. The way I see it is.. Hell was created by God for the devil and his angels, the Bible states that. What did the devil do? He rebeled against God, and those who do not accept Christ are in rebellion also. And it makes this person no better or worse then the devil himself. Here is something you may or may not know.. Did you know that rebellion is as Witchcraft??

Please don't ban me for continuing to answering you.

You are forgetting one thing with me hating Hell. Even if I manage to escape it, what about all the others who will be sent there? What if I were to fall in Love with an Atheist? I would not want to spend eternity away from her. I would rather burn in hell, with her, than abandon her. What about all of the Holocaust Jews? Should I abandon them?

 

[Atonement]

1st why would you marry an atheist? I'll touch on that in a moment...

I understand the point your trying to make. Once again it sounds as if your blaming God for their disobedience. I have lost loved ones whom I would like to see again one day, but I know that they were not saved, and it hurts me to no end. But I can not blame God for their actions. They knew how to accept salvation but refused it. I love them dearly, but their time has come and gone. All I can do is pray for my (living) friends, family and those who I love to accept this great salvation.

If you were to marry an atheist, she has a belief, she believes in no God. I believe it takes more faith not to believe in God then for someone to believe in God. That is a choice that she alone has made, you may talk with her about God, but in the end it's her own salvation at stake.

You say you rather burn in hell with someone because you love them. Hell is darkness, separation and torment. You would never see anyone EVER again. That I'm sorry to say was a foolish statement to make. I sympathize with your feelings on this, but you need not worry about those who already have come and gone. Stay close with the Lord and tell all your friends, and those who you love, that you want to spend eternity with them one day and you love them. Give them the Good news about the Bible. Then my friend, it's between them and God alone. All we can do is sit back and cry. Until God Himself wipes every tear from our eye.. Which I believe it will be the tears from where we see loved ones who did not make it. But in Heaven all the former things will pass away and all things will be made new, and we will have forgotten the former things.

 

[stovebolts]

And this helps the poor souls in Africa how? They are obviously going to fall.

Why are Christians told to go to all the nations and preach the gospel?
Face it, there is tension in this world that we live in and until Jesus comes again, there will remain tension bound in suffering and grace.
When you say poor souls in Africa, what do you speak of? Do you speak of all the evil warlords that oppress the people or are you committing them to hell?
Life is precious and we should treat it as precious. Unfortunately, we have a hard time loving our neighbor let alone loving our enemy. Being a Christian serves the same purpose as the Israelites served YHWH. They were to be a light to the nations, but what they ended up being was as corrupt as the nations they were sent to serve and divided among themselves.

So what exactly is preaching the gospel? Is salvation simply a spiritual phenomenon? I believe that we as Christians have a responsibility and part of that responsibility is helping others. Will they “obviously fall� I suppose that depends on who will plea their cause. You see, it was in God’s law that the owner of a field, or the owner of a vineyard either leave the corners of the field for the gleaners or not go through the vine a second time. You take care of what you know how to take care of, and God will take care of the rest for as it is written, You must not muzzle your ox when it is treading grain.

We struggle with the same questions Gendou, but I am comforted by this verse
22:2 flowing down the middle of the city’s main street.On each side of the river is the tree of life producing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month of the year. Its leaves are for the healing of the nations.

Nations are not defined by a stake in the ground or a border on a map. They are defined by the common thread that holds each individual together forming a community, which forms a town, which forms a nation.