Test what you have been taught

[stovebolts]

Jgredline,
Thank you for your kind words. However, I can’t take full credit. Some of it is just stuff that I’ve put together and so far, it appears pretty solid, but I’ve pulled heavily off of a snipit of Paul D. Hanson’s War and Peace in the Hebrew Bible, and another snipit from a guy named Write and his theology on God as a Warrior.
I haven’t done a search on either of them, but I’d bet their writings are out there somewhere.

Take care and God bless
Jeff

 

[destiny]

No, they don't have spirits. They are possessed by evil spirits. It is impossible for the Spirit of God and an evil spirit to inhabit the same dwelling.

Hey, mutz...theres alot going on in this thread, so if you want to answer in the heaven and hell topic in the general forum i'll understand, if not i'll look here first. If you don't want to continue at all ...thats ok too, no big deal.

There are atheists who have had near death experiences and found themselves in a place they described as hell. I've watched documentaries of their testiminies.
We are told in 1 Cor 6:2 ...that the saints will judge the world ...The world indicates 'unbelievers' and to 'judge' indicates a decision which produces a sentence of some kind.
We are also told again in 2 Tim 4:1 ...
Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom

This doesn't sound like anyone will be unaware of whats happening because they are 'dead' and nonexistent.
To be judged is to receive a sentence of some kind ...living AND dead.

 

[Gendou Ikari]

1st why would you marry an atheist? I'll touch on that in a moment...

Why wouldn't I? I harbor no ill will towards them.

I understand the point your trying to make. Once again it sounds as if your blaming God for their disobedience. I have lost loved ones whom I would like to see again one day, but I know that they were not saved, and it hurts me to no end. But I can not blame God for their actions. They knew how to accept salvation but refused it. I love them dearly, but their time has come and gone. All I can do is pray for my (living) friends, family and those who I love to accept this great salvation.

No, I am not blaming God for their disobedience. I am blaming God for being an unforgiving ******* and throwing them into hell.

You say you rather burn in hell with someone because you love them. Hell is darkness, separation and torment. You would never see anyone EVER again. That I'm sorry to say was a foolish statement to make. I sympathize with your feelings on this, but you need not worry about those who already have come and gone. Stay close with the Lord and tell all your friends, and those who you love, that you want to spend eternity with them one day and you love them. Give them the Good news about the Bible. Then my friend, it's between them and God alone. All we can do is sit back and cry. Until God Himself wipes every tear from our eye.. Which I believe it will be the tears from where we see loved ones who did not make it. But in Heaven all the former things will pass away and all things will be made new, and we will have forgotten the former things.

Just when I think the Doctrine of Hell can't get any worse. I said "burn," because that is what many Christians believe, albeit not all. I would still choose to be miserable and in the same condition as my hypothetical atheist love, than be in bliss without her.

This is what Love is. Love does not care how many times someone has wronged you. Love is always ready to forgive, and Love never gives up. What I worship is this concept of Love. If God is not it then I will not worship Him, because Pure Love is the Ultimate Good.

1 Corinthians 13

1 If I should be speaking in the languages of men and of the messengers, yet should have no love, I have become resounding copper or a clanging cymbal.
2 And if I should have prophecy and should be perceiving all secrets and all knowledge, and if I should have all faith, so as to transport mountains, yet have no love, I am nothing.
3 And if ever I should be morselling out all my possessions, and if I should be giving up my body, that I should be boasting, yet may have no love, in nothing do I benefit.
4 Love is patient, is kind. Love is not jealous. Love is not bragging, is not puffed up,
5 is not indecent, is not self-seeking, is not incensed, is not taking account of evil,
6 is not rejoicing in injustice, yet is rejoicing together with the truth,
7 is forgoing all, is believing all, is expecting all, is enduring all.
8 Love is never lapsing: yet, whether prophecies, they will be discarded, or languages, they will cease, or knowledge, it will be discarded.
9 For out of an instalment are we knowing, and out of an instalment are we prophesying.
10 Now whenever maturity may be coming, that which is out of an instalment shall be discarded.
11 When I was a minor, I spoke as a minor, I was disposed as a minor, I took account of things as a minor. Yet when I have become a man, I have discarded that which is a minor's.
12 For at present we are observing by means of a mirror, in an enigma, yet then, face to face. At present I know out of an instalment, yet then I shall recognize according as I am recognized also.
13 Yet now are remaining faith, expectation, love -- these three. Yet the greatest of these is love.

I will stop here for fear of being banned.

 

[Atonement]

Why wouldn't I? I harbor no ill will towards them.

In Simple terms. Your own salvation could be at stake and it's not worth it. God can provide you with someone who loves Him. I never take 2nd best (spiritual speaking).

No, I am not blaming God for their disobedience. I am blaming God for being an unforgiving ******* and throwing them into hell.

Can you show me where in all the NT God has not been forgiving?? Please stop offerning this opinion w/o Scripture, please. Here you are once again through your own knowledge can not accept the fact that man throws themself in Hell.. I think untill you come to this easy understanding of God's Word, this conversation can not go on. I would recommend going to Church, getting involved in fellowship and coming to the true understanding of God's Word. You KEEP SAYING God throws people in Hell. And you can not be further from the truth. Christ stands there with open arms waiting for us to call on him, but some sit there and spit in His face and reject His plan for Salvation.. Those who do.. Deserve what they get, I speak for my own loved ones who have gone before me..


Why would you get banned for quoting Scripture??

 

[Gendou Ikari]

In Simple terms. Your own salvation could be at stake and it's not worth it. God can provide you with someone who loves Him. I never take 2nd best (spiritual speaking).

I have already said I am not a Christian, so why would it matter if I marry someone who is not?

Can you show me where in all the NT God has not been forgiving?? Please stop offerning this opinion w/o Scripture, please. Here you are once again through your own knowledge can not accept the fact that man throws themself in Hell.. I think untill you come to this easy understanding of God's Word, this conversation can not go on. I would recommend going to Church, getting involved in fellowship and coming to the true understanding of God's Word. You KEEP SAYING God throws people in Hell. And you can not be further from the truth. Christ stands there with open arms waiting for us to call on him, but some sit there and spit in His face and reject His plan for Salvation.. Those who do.. Deserve what they get, I speak for my own loved ones who have gone before me..

So you are saying I am going to choose to be alone for all eternity. Umm... no. I already said that I would wish to spend eternity with my hypothetical atheist love. I am not willfully going to throw myself into a Hell, somebody is going to have to throw me in.

Why would you get banned for quoting Scripture??

Some have criticized the passages I quoted in the past.

 

[Atonement]

I have already said I am not a Christian, so why would it matter if I marry someone who is not?

Marry who you will, its your choice..

So you are saying I am going to choose to be alone for all eternity. Umm... no. I already said that I would wish to spend eternity with my hypothetical atheist love. I am not willfully going to throw myself into a Hell, somebody is going to have to throw me in.

Sorry.. This shows me your Bibical knowledge.

Some have criticized the passages I quoted in the past.

Why quote Scripture? Your not Christian... Your trying to make a point from a Book that you do not accept. You are being totally ludicrous.. If your not Christian, then please stop trying to make sense of it all and to all of us who accept and trust in the Bible. I just don't want you quoting Scriptures to fit your belief (whatever that may be). Then you will be criticized by myself also. After having this little conversation with you I can see how literate you are on Bibical literature.
-One knows why you have so many questions-

 

[Gendou Ikari]

Sorry.. This shows me your Bibical knowledge.

Wait, you are saying I am going to choose to be alone for all eternity. And yes my Biblical knowledge is not so great. I probably should read some more of it.

Why quote Scripture? Your not Christian... Your trying to make a point from a Book that you do not accept. You are being totally ludicrous.. If your not Christian, then please stop trying to make sense of it all and to all of us who accept and trust in the Bible. I just don't want you quoting Scriptures to fit your belief (whatever that may be). Then you will be criticized by myself also. After having this little conversation with you I can see how literate you are on Bibical literature.
-One knows why you have so many questions-

I quoted those passages because I believe they are beautiful and because I know you believe they are the revealed word of God.

As for souls being alone in Hell, like you claim, what of these two Scriptures.

Revelation 14:9-11 (King James Version)

And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Sounds to me like Jesus is going to be there watching us suffer. It definitely sounds like God is very mad at the sinners. Why should God be mad at them if the sinners choose throw themselves in Hell?

Psalm 139:8 (King James Version)
If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

 

[Atonement]

Okay well you need to know alittle about my background. I was a Satanist back in the late 80's and very early 90's. I came to the Lord in late 91' and I went through two years of Bible college and learned to speak Greek. I became a youth minister in 93' - 95'. I left because I felt it was no longer my calling. Funny how things work out because I'm back into Youth minstry.

Here are a few Scriptures. The writers did not have a word or term as our english word "pitch" as in pitch darkness, as in no light what so ever. It's a Dark so Dark you can not see your hand in front of your face. So they used the term Outter darkness..

Mat 22:13 Cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Hbr 12:18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness

And you speak of Revelation:

Rev 16:10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain

So with pitch darkness, you will never seen anyone again. So your alone in your torment forever and ever and forever and ever. The Scriptures you quote are from the point of view from the Lord's throne not the point of view of one being in Hell. Where did it say that those in Hell could see the Lord, or those in Heaven see the torment of those in Hell? It's the angels and the Lord. But after God creates a New Heaven and a New Earth, those thing will pass away. Yet there torment will rise forever and ever, we in Heaven will have no knowledge of it..

 

[Spirit Driven]

If you people really think that God will not get his way for all of us, and for everybody..... you are not fooling yourselves..... it is because you have been hardened by God, to believe that his will.... will not prevail.

That is his will for you.... I feel for you, because you have been predestinated for this ..... you refuse and you refute over and over again to recognise the Soveriegn power of God..... and that nobody can resist his Will.

I would be too afraid to promote such a Doctrine....

However, all is not lost, because I know that God has locked up all in disobedience so that he can show Mercy to all.

Even now you full fill his will for you..... as I do in his sight.

We promote different theology by the Will of God...... the only difference between us is that I accept that nobody can resist the Will of God..... you seem to think the Will of man is more powerfull than Gods Will.

It is no longer my place to argue with you...your arguement is with God on this one...... by his Will too.....

 

[Atonement]

the only difference between us is that I accept that nobody can resist the Will of God..... you seem to think the Will of man is more powerfull than Gods Will.

I know that free will is given to all man kind, and that free will, is not and will not be altered by God. Though God knew from the beginning someone would or would not accept him. Some call it "predestine" or fore-knowledge etc. I don't know who you were refering to when posting this. But as I stand here I can only speak for myself. I don't think, or believe man's will is more "powerful then God's.."

 

[Spirit Driven]

I believe that you are an honest God fearing man.... because you have been taught the Doctrine of Eternal torment.

I am a God fearing man, who knows the Doctrine of Eternal torment Is another Doctrine of the Demon..... how..... let me explain.

Satans theology is to scare people....into the killing Doctrine, and the killing Doctrine is not Eternal Torment..... the Killing Doctrine is the Doctrine of Free Will.

What he does is he scares people into the killing Doctrine...... with the Doctrine of Eternal Torment.

He ends up with all these people boasting before God about how they made the Free Will decision to accept Jesus Christ into their life... and all the rest are dammed to Hell.......

1Corinthians 4: 7

7 For who is making you to discriminate? Now what have you which you did not obtain? Now if you obtained it also, why are you boasting as though not obtaining?

 

[Atonement]

I believe that you are an honest God fearing man.... because you have been taught the Doctrine of Eternal torment.

I am a God fearing man, who knows the Doctrine of Eternal torment Is another Doctrine of the Demon..... how..... let me explain.

Satans theology is to scare people....into the killing Doctrine, and the killing Doctrine is not Eternal Torment..... the Killing Doctrine is the Doctrine of Free Will.

What he does is he scares people into the killing Doctrine...... with the Doctrine of Eternal Torment.

He ends up with all these people boasting before God about how they made the Free Will decision to accept Jesus Christ into their life... and all the rest are dammed to Hell.......

I will not disagree with this last post. I think it's how the Christian personally approaches a unbeliever. You start preaching hell fire and damnation, you will get no where. But if you come in love and tell them about the cross. The out come will be pleasant..

 

[Spirit Driven]

And if God has locked them up in disobedience so that they refuse to believe in God ?

Remember the main cause of Human unbelief in God.... is God himself, because nobody can resist his will for them..... where does that leave the Doctrine of Eternal torment then, especially when you consider Saul of Tarsus.

Human Free Will ? Saul of Tarsus had no intentions of comming to Jesus of his own free will.

He was out to persecute Christians, only Gods plan was to use Saul to show us all how he will acomplish his purpose for us.

God bent Saul to his Will, but he did it with Grace, God will bend all unbelievers in the same fashion in the end..... you see there is no Hell, because there was never a need for a hell with God.


Satan needs to scare people into thinking there is a Hell though, if he can get people boasting about how they are saved, and others are not, he disqualifies those people from believing the Gospel.

Those people miss out on the first ressurection, and Satan does not have to put up with those people reigning over him with Christ for the ages until the consumation of Gods plan when all are brought back from Death when God abolishes death.


Peace

 

[Atonement]

Well theres a thought

 

[Spirit Driven]

I think it comes down to the character of God being on trial..... with Satan accusing Day and Night.

Satan will never stop, he will do everything in his power to try and convince people that God is not smart enough to get the most God rejecting person to see things Gods way.

Lets look at Saul of Tarsus, who we know as the Apostle Paul, what did this Will of God rejecting Jesus Christ follower persecuting and violent agressor have to say.....

The Grace of the Lord Overwhelms!

14 Yet the grace of our Lord overwhelms, with faith and love in Christ Jesus.
15 Faithful is the saying, and worthy of all welcome, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, foremost of whom am I.
16 But therefore was I shown mercy, that in me, the foremost, Jesus Christ should be displaying all His patience, for a pattern of those who are about to be believing on Him for life eonian.
17 Now to the King of the eons, the incorruptible, invisible, only, and wise God, be honor and glory for the eons of the eons! Amen!

Not bad for someone who was out persecuting Christians..... I am impressed Lord


Peace

 

[stovebolts]

Here's the thing Spirit Driven, aka Razor
If you take UR to the extreem, this is what you come up with. Your "Home Site" is full of humanism and pulls people away from Christ.

What you say is persuasive, but it's not the full truth... You can't just take snipits of scripture and make them mean what you want them to mean. The Bible must be harmonized, it's not a buffet where you take what you want and concockt your own meal to your tastes.

http://www.gospelfortoday.org/gftforum/ ... 85&start=0

Seems that this Jason fellow had been brow beat by a bible thumping preacher...

Hey Jason, what you need to hear my friend is the Gospel.

Maybe you need to stop trying to believe, stop trying to be Christian. What's wrong with saying, I'm not a Christian. Heck, God isn't a Christian.


Simply, because of what Jesus did on the cross, you have been transformed into righteousness. This is not based on what you do but instead based on the Father's love for His prodigal son, you.

In the death of Jesus your everything was put to death. When He was raised you were raised also, like Him into the heavenly places. You are included. 1 Corinthians 1:30 "But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus."

Ephesians 2:4 "But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

Walk away. Do it. Be freed from all the junk of seeking. You don't need to seek Him, instead understand that He has found you.
_________________
Peace and grace to you, from our Father, who has chosen us, and loved us with such a love that even in our weakness came and saved us.

"You will make peace for us, since you have also performed for us all of our works." Isaiah

 

[Spirit Driven]

Here's the thing Spirit Driven, aka Razor
If you take UR to the extreem, this is what you come up with. Your "Home Site" is full of humanism and pulls people away from Christ.

What you say is persuasive, but it's not the full truth... You can't just take snipits of scripture and make them mean what you want them to mean. The Bible must be harmonized, it's not a buffet where you take what you want and concockt your own meal to your tastes.

http://www.gospelfortoday.org/gftforum/ ... 85&start=0

Seems that this Jason fellow had been brow beat by a bible thumping preacher...

Stovebolts you only know how to make accusations against others.... you show the master you serve, by your own actions.

 

[stovebolts]

Are you accusing me? :wink:

 

[stovebolts]

Interesting... Speaking of accusations...

Most of the worlds population, does not even believe in God or Jesus Christ, there are 6 billion people on the planet now, at most there are 1.5 billion Christians or people that have even heard of God.

Thats a big gap

You people have been taught all of your life, that you have to make a free will descision in your life to accept Jesus into your life or you are damned to hell.

You are no more knowledgeable about the will of God, than a child raised in Nazi Germany who was taught from a young age that Jews where sub human.....

You read scripture..... but you have no understanding of it outside what you have been taught..... or rather how you have indoctrinated.

You do not have the Love of all people in your heart like God does, and it sticks out like a sore thumb by what you preach.

Yet.... this is Gods will for you, I can accept that.

Peace

Now then, Apologetics is a means to sift through the garbage to find the truth. Stop attacking the person and address the topic.

According to the rules of Apologetics which you agreed to when you entered this forum, Directly refute anything that I have said concerning Romans 9 or related to it and stick to scripture.

 

[jgredline]

Spirit driven
Here is the thing though. Take your time and listen to what I will be sharing with you.
1) If as we believe the way you do, this would be an E ticket to sin. Live like we want and in the end its all good because we can have our cake and eat it too.
If your wrong , then HELL AWAITS
2) iF we live by faith in the Gospel of Jesus Christ and be doers of the word instead of listeners to word, at worst we end up in heaven.
3) If there is no heaven or Hell and we live by the Gospel then at worst we we have lived good lives and will be remembered for being a good person.

Now I hold to view number 2

Now as far as free will and election. Here is what I believe and I believe most will agree.

The doctrine of election raises serious problems in the human mind, so we must consider more fully what the Bible does (and does not) teach on this subject.

First, it teaches that God does choose men to salvation (2 Thess. 2:13). It addresses believers as those who are “elect according to the foreknowledge of God (1 Pet. 1:2). It teaches that people can know whether they are elect by their response to the gospel: those who hear and believe it are elect (1 Thess. 1:47).

On the other hand, the Bible never teaches that God chooses men to be lost. The fact that He chooses some to be saved does not imply that He arbitrarily condemns all the rest. He never condemns men who deserve to be saved (there are none), but He does save some who ought to be condemned. When Paul describes the elect, he speaks of them as “vessels of mercy which He had prepared beforehand for glory†(Rom. 9:23); but when he turns to the lost, he simply says, “vessels of wrath prepared for destruction (Rom. 9:22). God prepares vessels of mercy to glory, but He does not prepare men for destruction: they do this for themselves by their own unbelief.

The doctrine of election lets God be God. He is sovereign, that is, He can do as He pleases, although He never pleases to do anything unjust. If left alone, all men would be lost. Does God have the right to show mercy to some?

But there is another side to the story. The same Bible that teaches sovereign election also teaches human responsibility. No one can use the doctrine of election as an excuse for not being saved. God makes a bona fide offer of salvation to all people everywhere (John 3:16; 3:36; 5:24; Rom. 10:9, 13). Anyone can be saved by repenting of his sins and believing on the Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, if a person is lost, it is because he chooses to be lost, not because God desires it.

The fact is that the same Bible teaches election and free salvation to all who will receive it. Both doctrines are found in a single verse: “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out (John 6:37). The first half of the verse speaks of Gods sovereign choice; the last half extends the offer of mercy to all.

This poses a difficulty for the human mind. How can God choose some and yet offer salvation freely to all men? Frankly, this is a mystery. But the mystery is on our side, not on Gods. The best policy for us is to believe both doctrines because the Bible teaches both. The truth is not found somewhere between election and mans free will, but in both extremes.

So spirit. You need to make a choice.