That which is PERFECT or FACE TO FACE.......

[Imagican]

I know what Mathew Henry and MOST of the churches have TAUGHT that this means. But they are WRONG. The Bible PLAINLY, (to anyone that is willing to read it and accept what it says), TELLS us that this is WRONG. Let us do a brief study and see if we can find what it TRULY means.

Firstly, we MUST establish a basis for the STUDY of ANY subject according to scripture.

When we read and begin to SEE the structure of scripture, we find that ALMOST EVERY INSTANCE where ANYTHING may be MISUNDERSTOOD, it is CLARIFIED. Otherwise, scripture WOULD be of 'individual discernment'. It's NOT MEANT TO BE.

Throughout the Word, a chapter will usually begin with a 'question' and then EXPLAIN THE ANSWER.

Christ's parables are usually more of question in the beginning of a chapter and then an explanation. When Daniel wrote of his visions, he FIRST simply described THE VISION, then, as the chapter would reveal or in subsequent chapters, HE EXPLAINED the MEANING of the visons.

It's no different concerning the subject of this thread.

Now:

9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

Paul here is NOT referning so much to HIMSELF as to those that he is WRITTING TO. For IF he was INCLUDED in this statement, then there would be NO REASON for ANYONE to even LISTEN TO HIM.

10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

Yes, there is 'something coming' that will ALTER the understanding of those to whom he wrote.

11When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

Here comes the BEGINNING of understanding of this subject.

12For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Once again, in order to keep from seeming to be ABOVE or SEPARATE from those to whom he wrote, he uses the word WE. But you can BELIEVE that he ALREADY KNEW what he was speaking of. His words were NOT MEANT to BE a 'mystery'.

13And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

I am going to PLAINLY show how EASY it is to MISINTERPRET the meanings behind scripture WHEN we take words OUT OF CONTEXT. As I have done above, I have simply offered a 'snippet' of the chapter concerning the issue.

But we will START in this manner just to SHOW how easy it is to BE CONFUSED when scipture is NOT READ as offered.

For those that desire understanding of this subject, I'm going to stop here and let this be digested. My words are not a simple as they may SEEM. Read them and SEE if they are able to 'open ones eyes'. But this is but the beginning.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Imagican]

Ok, what we must FIRST DO is place those last line of scripture IN CONTEXT. I would suggest that the chapter be READ firist and they we can see what it says. The ENTIRE message.

1 Corinthians 13

1Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

2And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

3And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

4Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,

5Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;

6Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;

7Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

8Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

11When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

12For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

13And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

NOW we can begin to see what Paul is offering. The chapter BEGINS with 'charity' and ENDS with 'charity'. The ENTIRE chapter is one concerning CHARITY; LOVE. The offering of SELF FOR OTHERS.

He PLAINLY STATES without ANY room for misunderstanding and reiterates himself OVER AND OVER that ANYTHING that we DO without 'charity' is USELESS. Without effect so far as TRUTH is concerned.

This ENTIRE Chapter IS an explanation of the importance of CHARITY.

Now, can we AGREE upon this?

Blessings,

MEC

 

[turnorburn]

Charity or Love

The Greek word 'agape' is translated both as 'charity' and 'love' in many places in the new testament in the KJV. What is the difference?

Almost all common Greek or Hebrew words will be translated into more than one English word at different places in the Bible. There is no such thing as word for word translation from one language to another. That is, the words of one language do not perfectly correspond to the words of another language. As these words are used in different contexts and with different shades of meaning, a decision has to be made on which English word is the best to use in each case.

Charity is an interesting case in the King James Bible because the 1 Corinthians 13 passage (which uses charity 9 times) had been translated using the word love in Tyndale's New Testament of 1526 - 85 years before the King James translation. Certainly, it was not the case that the King James translators did not know that love might have fit. Rather, they purposely chose charity as the word to use there. Evidently, they saw an importance in distinguishing some of the uses of agape in a specific way. We will look at scripture to see if we can discover what specific nuances of the word are being brought out when charity is used. The use of love is the more general use and will not be discussed here in detail.

Some form of the word charity is found in the Bible 29 times. All of these references are in the New Testament. In fact, the word does not occur in any form in the Bible until the book of Romans. It is definitely a New Testament word. Charity is found 9 times in 1 Corinthians 13, which makes it the Charity Chapter in the Bible. Many people have called it the Love Chapter (in correction of the King James Bible); but this distinction clearly goes to 1 John 4 where love in mentioned 27 times (unless you included the 3 times "beloved" is used). Also, the fact that 1 Corinthians 13 uses charity 9 times connects it with the nine-fold fruit of the spirit. Nine often denotes a spiritual fruitfulness.

In order to define charity scripturally, we will go to the scripture. That is, we will observe how the word is used in scripture and let that be our final authority for the meaning of the word. Notice the following points about charity as it is used in scripture:

1. Charity is the epitome of perfection in the Christian life. It is the "greatest" of the three abiding virtues (1 Corinthians 13:13). It is the "bond of perfectness" (Colossians 3:14) and the "end of the commandment" (1 Timothy 1:5). Of the seven things Peter exhorts the saints to add to their faith, it is the seventh (2 Peter 1:5-7). Obviously, the Christian life reaches its pinnacle in the practice of charity. We certainly should know what it is.
2. But to know what charity is, we must know what it is not. Today, people often think of charity as nothing more than a giving of money for some good cause. However, the Bible strongly contrasts the charity it proposes to the misunderstood charity of giving funds. 1 Corinthians 13:3 states, "And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing." According to this verse, it is possible to give all your goods to feed the poor and yet not have charity. Therefore, the giving of funds is not biblical charity.
3. Biblical charity can also be distinguished from other forms of love. Though most dictionaries say that charity includes the idea of the love of God for man, there is no indication that it is used in that way in the King James Bible. In fact, it is not specifically used of the love of man for God either. Although there are some passages where the word could be used in application of some of these forms of love, those passages where the word is specifically defined never refer to God's love toward man or man's love toward God.
4. Charity specifically refers to the love that we have toward other men. Paul stresses that we are to walk "charitably" toward our weaker brothers (Romans 14:13-15). He praised the Thessalonians because "the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth" (2 Thessalonians 1:3). In 1 Peter 4:8-9, Peter told the believers, "And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins. Use hospitality one to another without grudging."

John encouraged the saints, "Beloved, thou doest faithfully whatsoever thou doest to the brethren, and to strangers; Which have borne witness of thy charity before the church..." (3 John 1:5-6). In all of these passages, charity describes the love of the saints for others. Most of the time, it refers to other believers: toward each other, among yourselves, to the brethren. In one case (3 John 1:5-6), it includes strangers. But in them all, God is referring to the special love that believers should have for others.

There are plenty of passages that speak of the importance of love in general, but the Bible speaks of charity to point us to a specific kind of love. Charity is the love toward others that suffers long with them and is kind (1 Corinthians 13:4), that does not behave unseemly, seek to get its own way, or is easily provoked (1 Corinthians 13:5); that rejoices not in the iniquity of others (1 Corinthians 13:6); that bears, believes, hopes, and endures (1 Corinthians 13:7). It is the grace that proves the believer to be mature in his faith and practice. May the Lord give us all more charity.


Reagan, David




I gleaned this from: http://www.learnthebible.org/charity-or-love.html


turnorburn

 

[Imagican]

Now, IF we cao agree that the entire chapter is about ONE THING: Charity, then we can go on to understand EVERY words offered up in this chapter.

Let us 'go back' now and see if we can't 'clear up' the misinterpretation of 'that which is PERFECT'.

9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

While Paul may NOT have known EVERYTHING, we KNOW that the words that he offers HERE ARE UNDERSTANDING. That he HAD to understand what HE was saying or the words would be USELESS. So, his use of the word WE serves numerous purposes. First, he KEEPS him from looking like he is ABOVE others. Second, it is practically POETIC in it's nature. Just READ the appeal of these words. How RIGHT they SOUND.

10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

What is this CHAPTER ABOUT? Charity. What are we commanded to DO? Summed up in the least amount of words POSSIBLE, what is OUR PURPOSE?

I'm going to offer it HERE so that those that have NOT 'figured it out' will KNOW, without a DOUBT, WHAT their PURPOSE IS:

Exodus 20;

3Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Matthew 7: 12

Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

Matthew 22:

36Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38This is the first and great commandment.

39And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Simply read these and you will KNOW what YOUR purpose is: It is to LEARN to do THESE THINGS. So simple but so difficult for the AVERAGE human being.

First: LOVE God utterly.

Second: Love your neighbor AS YOURSELF.

Note that CHRIST stated that ALL the LAW and ALL THE PROPHETS HANG on these TWO.

I'm going to take a break here and let THIS 'sink in', (hopefully). Then we will 'get to the MEAT' upon conclusion.

11When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

12For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

13And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Imagican]

11When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

Ok, here we go. Paul here is offering to those in Corinth that it's TIME TO GROW UP. Stop chasing after one's OWN PERSONAL EDIFICATION start learning what it IS that Christ TRULY came for. Start GROWING up in what Christ OFFERED.

12For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

And here it IS. Here is what we EACH have to look FORWARD to. NOT some distant FURTURE and a 'second coming'. Possibly RIGHT NOW. Right this VERY MINUTE. First, Paul used the word WE for the SAME reasons that he used it previous. To INCLUDE himself to KEEP from seeming ABOVE others. And it IS kind of poetic and a BEAUTIFUL use of LANGUAGE. So, instead of saying YOU and seeming to be accusatory, he included HIMSELF in 'we'.

There was ONE purpose in 'creation'. And that SAME pupose has followed us throughout history. God 'created' us to KNOW us and LOVE us. And He ALWAYS HAS. It is US that has been SEPARATED AND LOST. And for ONE REASON. We disobeyed and separated OURSELVES BEFORE we had GROWN UP. We chose disobedience rather than UNITY with that which CREATED US.

But, we KNOW that IF we accept Christ INTO our HEARTS then HE LIVES IN US. It's THAT simple. Some may already be SEEING. But for those that don't:

What Paul is offering here is that WHEN we can COME TO THE TRUTH concerning Charity; LOVE. When we can BEGIN to practice it IN UNDERSTANDING, THEN, that which has been in existence IN PART since the BEGINNING of our 'creation' WILL BE COMPLETE. When our decisions and actions are BASED ON TRUE LOVE, then we WILL BE able to KNOW God as He as ALWAYS KNOWN US FROM THE BEGINNING. We WILL BE ABLE to be FACE TO FACE WITH GOD.

And folks, this could HAPPEN THIS VERY SECOND UPON READING THIS. We do NOT have to WAIT until Christ RETURNS, He has ALREADY BEEN HERE. He's BEEN HERE since THE BEGINNING. It is US that has had the PROBLEM accepting IT.

13And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

And here is the PROOF. Paul did NOT insert some 'mystical', OFF THE WALL statement in the MIDDLE of a chapter. The ENTIRE chapter is the SAME SUBJECT. The subject BEING 'charity'. and WHEN we can COME to the realization, acceptance and practicing of CHARITY, then that WHICH IS PERFECT HAS COME. For God IS Love. And God IS PERFECT. For us to BE 'like God', then we MUST learn WHAT God IS. Once we learn and begin to understand and PRACTICE, we BECOME the IMAGE in which we were created IN. And that is PERFECTION.

Now I KNOW that there will ALWAYS be those that will ARGUE against truth if for no other reason than the mere 'sake of arguement'. Since this is a FACT, go ahead and argue. Then I will offer the REST of the story as laid out by Paul. By the end of this thread, ANY and EVERYONE that reads it will have been GIVEN the MEANING behind in TRUTH. Some will see, others will resist. But by the time that this thread is OVER, EVERYONE will KNOW in their HEARTS that it IS truth.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Imagican]

And here we go. This chapter offers explanation that PROVES what I have offered concerning 'that which is perfect' AND it offers further information concerning TONGUES.

Let's read it and SEE if we can FIND the PROOF.

Ephesians 4

1I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,

2With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;

3Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

7But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

8Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

9(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

10He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

Notice here that there is NO MENTION OF TONGUES OR INTERPRETATION.

12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

14That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

15But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

16From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

17This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,

18Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

Remember? through a glass DARKLY?

19Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

20But ye have not so learned Christ;

21If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:

22That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

23And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

24And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

25Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.

26Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:

27Neither give place to the devil.

28Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.

29Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.

30And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

31Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:

32And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.


While 1 Corinthians was OBVIOUSLY a letter of REBUKE, we find in Ephesians, as letter of PRAISE. In Corinthians, Paul plainly offers that he is STILL feeding them MILK. In Ephesians, he is able to offer MEAT.

Now, notice that he has basically compacted a NUMBER of chapters written to those in Corinth HERE into ONE chapter; and a SHORT ONE AT THAT.

The reason for this is that the Ephesians were NOT STRUGGLING with the PROBLEMS found in the church at Corinth. The Ephesians WERE growning up and putting away CHILDISH THINGS. They were BECOMING the 'perfect men' that they were MEANT TO BE.

Read it yourself. These words offered TO the Ephesians are PRACTICALLY the SAME words offered to those in Corinth. Only MORE compacted for those in Ephesia were OBVIOUSLY ABLE to discern them at a more advanced PACE.

There will certainly BE those that are UNABLE to grasp what I am offering here. For those, Reading, study and PRAYER would be in order. For the rest, I am confident that now that it has been revealed, it will be CLEAR.

For those that simply want to argue the point, let me know what it is that you wish to argue about, which points you THINK are confusing and I will do my best to clarify.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Imagican]

Ah, I notice that no one has anything to offer about this subject. I kinda figured it would be like that.

I have yet to dispute what the churches teach and have them pat me on the back for it. Not surprising. But I guess if I was dependant upon the SUPPORT of others to LIVE a life above MY OWN MEANS, then I would surely despise ANYONE that came along and offered contradiction to my teachings.

You know folks, the churches have been DEPENDANT upon their congregations support since their inception. While we were plainly offered that we ARE obliged to support those that minister to us and to help feed and house widows and orphans, we were NEVER told that it would be through OUR works and efforts that those that teach be afforded NICER cars than the ones WE drive. Or, that their CLOTHERS be nicer than OURS. Or that they EAT BETTER than we do. Or that we are obliged to build BIGGER and NICER BUILDINGS with UPDATED airconditioning and new pews and carpet and and and and........................

See, THIS is what happens when we place our faith in MEN and those things of THE FLESH. We begin to BELIEVE that what THEY teach is of MORE import than what is offered in Word or Spirit.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[cyberjosh]

Once again, in order to keep from seeming to be ABOVE or SEPARATE from those to whom he wrote, he uses the word WE. But you can BELIEVE that he ALREADY KNEW what he was speaking of. His words were NOT MEANT to BE a 'mystery'.

I don't know if that interpretation is warranted. Paul many times in fact claims that he has not attained to what is perfect, however intimately knowing the process of perfection and pressing toward the goal can lead a person to apprehend its logical conclusion: that knowledge in Christ will be perfected in the end. Yet Paul clearly says in Philippians, "Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus" (Phil. 3:12). If you are trying to suggest that Paul had that perfect understanding but was only superficially identifying with 'WE' in that passage above then I believe you are incorrect.

Also even though Paul had great revelations when he was caught up into the third heaven yet he still did not know whereby it happened (in the body or out) and the words which he heard themselves were inexpressible by humans, thus the perfection of it could not possibly be manifested in man in his present state. What I think Paul experienced was a glimpse of the perfection to come which men in their redeemed state (and redeemed bodies) will be fully participant in. But he acknowledges that we can only, for the present time/temporally, see as in a mirror dimly (and this coming from a man who was blinded by the radiance of Christ's glory on the way to Damascus).

Paul said in 2 Corinthians 12:2-4, "I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago--whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows--such a man was caught up to the third heaven.
And I know how such a man--whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows--
was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak."

Tell me your thoughts on this.

~Josh

 

[Imagican]

Cyber,

I believe where MANY err in their understanding concerning 'that which is perfect' lies in their MISUNDERSTANDING exactly what Paul is refering to.

He is CERTAINLY NOT refering to a PERFECT body. He is certainly not refering to perfect health. He is certainly not refering to SINLESSNESS. He is refering to a PERFECT understanding. And this IS achievable even if not LIVABLE.

Once again, I have attempted to PLAINLY show that the REASON that these word were offered is THERE, right in the MIDDLE of a chapter devoted to ONE PURPOSE. You don't THINK that all of a sudden Paul SHIFTS from one concept TO ANOTHER than then RETURNS to the original concept at the END of the SAME chapter. If you do, then you have failed to recognize that actual NATURE of The Word. For it is thus thorughout the OT AND the NT.

The words of Paul are NOT a 'mystery'. They are offered FOR understanding. He would NOT have even OFFERED them if they had NO bearing on the issue about which he was discussing.

And then I skiped to Ephesians where it is EVEN clearer the intent of the words concerning 'that perfect MAN'. Paul does NOT say that it is for some FUTURE EVENT. He plainly offers that it is an event which could take place the NEXT second or minute.

what IS God, Cyber? and what has been the message SENT since the 'creation'? What ONE concept do ALL the law and all the prophets HINGE on?

Answer these questions and YOU TOO will KNOW 'what' that which is perfect truly IS.

When I was a child...........................When that which is perfect is come, then that which is in PART shall be done away................. Is it really that difficult to understand?

Paul plainly offered that it was TIME for the Corinthians to PUT AWAY their CHILDISH ways and GROW UP into that which is PERFECT in UNDERSTANDING. And THAT understanding is the UNDERSTANDING of LOVE. Read what I offered in Corinthians and then compare it to what Paul offered in Ephesians. The ONLY difference is that he was more BASIC in Corinthians and more direct in Ephesians. And the reason for this is that those in Ephesus were CLOSER to the truth than those in Corinth. Those in Corinth were still being fed MILK and those in Ephesus were ABLE to bear a LITTLE MEAT.

In answer to the question about the 'man that Paul KNEW', I BELIEVE that he was refering to HIMSELF. But, to be humble and to FIT IN among those that were 'babes' in Christ, he offered the allusion to 'someone else'. NO, not deceit, but simply an offering for the sake of those that may well be UNABLE to bear it BEING himself.

For he CERTAINLY KNEW HIMSELF. that is NO LIE.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Imagican]

Cyber,

simply go back to the last post that I offered in explanation:

11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

Notice here that there is NO MENTION OF TONGUES OR INTERPRETATION.

12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

14That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

15But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

16From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

Do you mean to tell me that you are UNABLE to recognize the MEANING behind these words? Really?

There is NOTHING offered here about a FUTURE coming of Christ. They are offered to THOSE READING these words about what is possible NOW. He even tells them HOW. IN DETAIL.

He gave some apostles. For what? Why? For the perfecting of the saints. Come now, you don't possibly believe that Paul wrote these words to the Ephesians about a time THOUSANDS of years in the FUTURE? For he goes on to explain the SIMPLICITY of these words:

13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

this is NOT refering to some FUTURE event but UNDERSTANDING. And the next verse PLAINLY explains this:

14That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

that we 'from now on' be NO MORE CHILDREN tossed to and fro and carried about with EVERY wind of doctrine, by the slight of men and cunning craftiness, whereby they LIE IN WAIT TO DECIEVE;

15But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

and HERE IT IS: This IS the WAY that we STOP being children and BECOME perfect men: Speaking in TRUTH in LOVE, THEN we GROW UP and INTO Christ in ALL THINGS.

This IS 'that which is perfect' and when it comes will BE when those that follow 'put away childish things' and GROW UP in Christ.

Now, I guess if you are unable to SEE this it isn't MEANT for you to SEE it. But I don't know how much CLEARER Paul could offer what he was attempting to 'pass on' in understanding.

So, believe what you will but I can assure you that ''I'' AM NOT trying to 'lie in wait to DECEIVE YOU'. The words are there as clear as day and the ONLY thing that would 'get in the way' of understanding is what has been TAUGHT by the churches.

Why would they deceive you? For IF you were ABLE to bear these words, you would KNOW that NO man-made institution is able to offer what is CONTAINED within these words. You would LIKELY 'turn away' and NEVER return. That is NOT how a 'church' makes it's LIVING. It makes it's living by you STAYING and HOPING that ONE day THEY can GIVE you what it is that they PRETEND they already have.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Sinthesis]

I know what Mathew Henry and MOST of the churches have TAUGHT that this means. But they are WRONG. The Bible PLAINLY, (to anyone that is willing to read it and accept what it says), TELLS us that this is WRONG. Let us do a brief study and see if we can find what it TRULY means.

I don't know what Mathew Henry and MOST of the churches have TAUGHT. Could you please summarize what it is they are teaching and what you disagree with?

 

[Imagican]

I know what Mathew Henry and MOST of the churches have TAUGHT that this means. But they are WRONG. The Bible PLAINLY, (to anyone that is willing to read it and accept what it says), TELLS us that this is WRONG. Let us do a brief study and see if we can find what it TRULY means.

I don't know what Mathew Henry and MOST of the churches have TAUGHT. Could you please summarize what it is they are teaching and what you disagree with?

The churches and Matthew Henry invariably teach that these words offered by Paul are in reference to a FUTURE time when Christ returns. And so long as they are unable to accept and understand what Paul is offering, there is little chance of the HOPE of attainment of such.

Yet what Paul is offering is that we are ABLE to obtain 'perfection' right here and RIGHT NOW. And it is NOT in reference to ANYTHING but 'perfect UNDERSTANDING' of the ONE most BASIC principle of the relationship between God and man.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Imagican]

God IS amazing. No matter HOW MUCH I pray, read and study, I invariably find myself in UTTER AWE.

And The Word is God. It IS his communication usward.

Example:

Having read this particular piece of scripture no less than HUNDREDS of times, it wasn't until TODAY that this particular line JUMPED OUT like a 'jack in the box'. When you read it you will SEE, not only what I refer to in these words, but the FACT that what I have offered in this thread is UNDENIABLE and that the CHRUCHES have been DEAD WRONG in their interpretation of the meaning behind 'that which is perfect and face to face'. Are you ready? Hmmmmm...........I just wonder, even when faced with INEVITABLE PROOF, how many will insist on a continuation of that which they were TAUGHT verses the PLAIN and SIMPLE truth..............................I wonder......................

I doubt many have followed this thread. It is kind of long. But I believe that is CRUCIAL that we UNDERSTAND these verses.

The churches have been HIDING the understanding behind these verses for the simple FACT that if PEOPLE actually UNDERSTOOD them, they would MOST LIKELY turn away and NEVER return. For the churches, by ALTERING the truth, have destroyed HOPE or even the UNDERSTANDING of the possibility that there IS perfectness OBTAINABLE for EACH and EVERY ONE OF US, RIGHT NOW. But if the churches had TAUGHT THIS; then we would no longer be able to be led by that 'carrot on a stick'. For MOST attend and return in the HOPES that THEY TOO will be ABLE to obtain what those that LEAD them 'pretend' to possess. Returning in the HOPES that they TOO will ONE day be ABLE to be as 'fulfilled' as those standing before them and leading them.

But 'what if'? What IF you were ABLE to obtain something that most of these could NEVER EVEN DREAM OF? What IF the 'freedom' that you have been promised could be recognized RIGHT HERE, RIGHT NOW, TODAY? Hmmm.........sounds tempting doesn't it? Sounds like a bunch of smoke and mirrors huh? It's NOT.

Here's your PROOF. Here's ALL that one NEEDS to READ and understand in order to PLAINLY SEE that what I have offered in this thread is TRUTH and what has been TAUGHT concerning these verses is FALSE:

Colossians 3: 14

14And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.

So simple yet SO precise. Amazing isn't it?

Read it carefully; ABOVE ALL WHICH IS THE BOND OF PERFECTNESS.

Wow, all these years I have been telling others the truth concerning these verses, and ONLY TODAY did I RECOGNIZE this verse.

And this is the REASON that we are to compare scripture TO scripture.

I know, some are saying, "What", that's IT? ABSOLUTELY. Can ANYONE deny that the words of Paul concerning 'when that which is perfect is COME....................... IS an understanding and practice of CHARITY?

When we have the words RIGHT HERE in a DIFFERENT epistle that PLAINLY offer that ABOVE ALL and that 'charity if the BOND of PERFECTNESS.

I hope that this has been able to offer the edification that it is able. I HOPE that, once recognized, MANY will be ABLE to clearly see that our hope is NOT for some 'future date' or a 'second coming', our hope IS for RIGHT NOW. We no longer have to GUESS if we are able to obtain that which we have been given in example. We can now KNOW that we are ABLE to BE 'perfect' in the understanding of love and the PRACTICE OF IT.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[follower of Christ]

Confused.
Paul says;

For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
(1Co 13:12)

Paul includes himself in this state with the word 'we'.
Dont we think that Paul would have already found charity *IF* that were the point of seeing 'face to face' and that he would not have included himself in the statement of NOW seeing thru the glass darkly ?
Did Paul lack charity ?

My view is that Paul was in the same boat as those he wrote to and that being the case that this seeing face to face was a future event, just as the texts indicate, and that it is yet to come.

Another point is that Paul tells us not to forbid tongues, but if this qualifier of seeing 'face to face' is something that can be attained in this age, then it directly contradicts the former passage;

Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
(1Co 13:8-10)

When shall tongues cease ? When the perfect has come. If the 'perfect' were simply charity then that means that it could come at any point and thus Pauls saying not to forbid tongues elsewhere would seem to be somewhat contradictory. Shouldnt Paul have clarified not to forbid tongues until charity was present and we supposedly see face to face ?

My belief is that seeing 'face to face' and knowing as I am known is talking about when the curtain has fallen and we see things clearly because we are no longer imperfect...ie when we are with Christ

 

[Sinthesis]

Perfectness describes the bond, not the bonded; meaning Charity is the perfect bond, NOT Charity is that which bonds the perfect.

You and I will never be perfect in this life. However, with faith in Christ, He will perfect us in the 'afterlife'. Our reward is not for this life, and the peace which the Holy Spirit bestows on us is but a shadow of the peace we will know in the 'afterlife'.

As humans, perfect understanding is beyond us, guarded by a flaming sword.

That said, what Paul is doing here is describing to other Jews/Christians the New Covenant as the Temple Age is replaced by the Church Age.

 

[Imagican]

Perfectness describes the bond, not the bonded; meaning Charity is the perfect bond, NOT Charity is that which bonds the perfect.

You and I will never be perfect in this life. However, with faith in Christ, He will perfect us in the 'afterlife'. Our reward is not for this life, and the peace which the Holy Spirit bestows on us is but a shadow of the peace we will know in the 'afterlife'.

As humans, perfect understanding is beyond us, guarded by a flaming sword.

That said, what Paul is doing here is describing to other Jews/Christians the New Covenant as the Temple Age is replaced by the Church Age.

You have failed to take the words AS OFFERED. NO, it plainly offers that charity is the BOND Of PERFECTNESS. it does NOT say that it is that which bonds the perfect.

I guess you didn't read what I offered in it's entirety. I already explained that the 'perfection' mentioned is NOT BEING perfect. It is PERFECT UNDERSTANDING. And perfect understanding concerning that which matters MOST. And we certainly CAN attain that.

I also explained that Paul inclueded himself in almost EVERTHING that he wrote. But in this instance, we can CLEARLY see that the ENTIRE chapter is about CHARITY. Why would someone interject something that has NOTHING to do with charity in the middle of a chapter that DEALS with charity?

If you will note that throughout the Bible, a chapter usually starts with some vague outline of a principle and then in the end EXPLAINS the details. This is a very common theme throughout The Word.

Blessings,

MEC