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The 613 something or another

Ryan

Member
Been wanting to really dig into the commandments and study them out. So this is more about me right now, but if anyone can glean anything from this exercise, that is a bonus.

Of course I will use the bible as the final authority, but I also have several resources that discuss how the ancient sages interpreted, or practiced the commandments. I am in no way saying they are right, but there is wisdom and understanding with some of the difficult passages, particularly in Leviticus.

I am learning as I go along to, so if I am in error, please let me know. I choose this section cause the rules are more stringent here. I want to learn, not debate please.

So are there any requests for any of the difficult commandments that are hard to understand? If there are, be patient as I will take my time studying them out.
 
Been wanting to really dig into the commandments and study them out. So this is more about me right now, but if anyone can glean anything from this exercise, that is a bonus.

Of course I will use the bible as the final authority, but I also have several resources that discuss how the ancient sages interpreted, or practiced the commandments. I am in no way saying they are right, but there is wisdom and understanding with some of the difficult passages, particularly in Leviticus.

I am learning as I go along to, so if I am in error, please let me know. I choose this section cause the rules are more stringent here. I want to learn, not debate please.

So are there any requests for any of the difficult commandments that are hard to understand? If there are, be patient as I will take my time studying them out.

I have been a Christian for 40 years, but until 6 years ago, I had never studied the law. Out of all the sermons I've heard in church over the years, not one has been based on something from the first five books of the Bible. If you count the pages, the books of Moses are about the same size as the entire New Testament. It seemed wrong to me that we Christians should completely ignore such a large part of God's Word, so I started studying it. I have read through the law about 5 times in the last 6 years and have read a number of commentaries, both from Messianic Jewish sources (which included some Orthodox Jewish material as well) and from more traditional Christian sources. I would love to discuss what I've learned, and if you have any questions, feel free to ask.
The TOG
 
Been wanting to really dig into the commandments and study them out. So this is more about me right now, but if anyone can glean anything from this exercise, that is a bonus.

Of course I will use the bible as the final authority, but I also have several resources that discuss how the ancient sages interpreted, or practiced the commandments. I am in no way saying they are right, but there is wisdom and understanding with some of the difficult passages, particularly in Leviticus.

I am learning as I go along to, so if I am in error, please let me know. I choose this section cause the rules are more stringent here. I want to learn, not debate please.

So are there any requests for any of the difficult commandments that are hard to understand? If there are, be patient as I will take my time studying them out.

I have been a Christian for 40 years, but until 6 years ago, I had never studied the law. Out of all the sermons I've heard in church over the years, not one has been based on something from the first five books of the Bible. If you count the pages, the books of Moses are about the same size as the entire New Testament. It seemed wrong to me that we Christians should completely ignore such a large part of God's Word, so I started studying it. I have read through the law about 5 times in the last 6 years and have read a number of commentaries, both from Messianic Jewish sources (which included some Orthodox Jewish material as well) and from more traditional Christian sources. I would love to discuss what I've learned, and if you have any questions, feel free to ask.
The TOG

Please share what you have learned.


JLB
 
Been wanting to really dig into the commandments and study them out. So this is more about me right now, but if anyone can glean anything from this exercise, that is a bonus.

Of course I will use the bible as the final authority, but I also have several resources that discuss how the ancient sages interpreted, or practiced the commandments. I am in no way saying they are right, but there is wisdom and understanding with some of the difficult passages, particularly in Leviticus.

I am learning as I go along to, so if I am in error, please let me know. I choose this section cause the rules are more stringent here. I want to learn, not debate please.

So are there any requests for any of the difficult commandments that are hard to understand? If there are, be patient as I will take my time studying them out.

Hi Ryan,

Deuteronomy 18:9-13;

Sacrificing children in fire
Practicing divination or sorcery
Interpret omens
Engages in witchcraft
Casts spells
Uses a medium or spiritist
Consults the dead

How do these things appear to us today?
Are they in any form in the church today?
How will we know?

I want to be sure I understand the meaning presented here as I suspect some of these in the church.
 
Been wanting to really dig into the commandments and study them out. So this is more about me right now, but if anyone can glean anything from this exercise, that is a bonus.

Of course I will use the bible as the final authority, but I also have several resources that discuss how the ancient sages interpreted, or practiced the commandments. I am in no way saying they are right, but there is wisdom and understanding with some of the difficult passages, particularly in Leviticus.

I am learning as I go along to, so if I am in error, please let me know. I choose this section cause the rules are more stringent here. I want to learn, not debate please.

So are there any requests for any of the difficult commandments that are hard to understand? If there are, be patient as I will take my time studying them out.

Ryan,

I am far from being Messianic Jew, but I have an appreciation for Jewish writings. Well before I found any Jewish commentary, I took a look at the 613 Laws and skimming them, found them (with the exception of the food laws and a few other's) that they were right in line with good old Christian morals and ethics.

I am going on vacation and will be gone for a week. However, it would be fun, and lengthy to discuss each law and link it to our NT scriptures. I believe most of them can be linked to the NT in a positive manner.
 
[MENTION=96759]TOG[/MENTION] [MENTION=90220]JLB[/MENTION] [MENTION=92945]allenwynne[/MENTION] [MENTION=841]StoveBolts[/MENTION] Thanks for your input. Simply I just want to understand the 613 commandments more closely, and learn, but also to put into practice anything I find. Even the tabernacle laws, we can learn something from each one.

Deuteronomy 18:9-15 all deal with the spirit realm of which we know is very active and attempts to thwart or lead us astray, the bad ones at least Ephesians 6:12

There was a very reason why God dealt so harshly with divinators, sorcerors, or anybody that brought wickedness in the camp is because sin spreads Exodus 12:20; 1 Corinthians 5:6; Galatians 5:9. Sin spreads, it is infectious and it must be rooted up and purged from the camp. God just brought a redeemed people from Egypt, and he wanted to protect them, and this a means of protecting his treasured possession. Seems harsh to kill a sorcerous, but the consequences were fatal for Israel as time went on. As they allowed themselves to be more polluted with the ways of the nations, that brought upon themselves demons and satanic activity. So is it any wonder why when Jesus came on the scene, he was casting out demons left, right and centre?

I am not heavy into knowing about the spirit realm admittedly, but there was a guy at a church we attended and he would have these "The Lord revealed to me" prophecies he would share. It quickly became apparent they were false, yet the pastor nor anyone else put a stop to it, myself included. I think we will know when obviously what they say doesn't come into fruition, and also when it speaks contrary to the Word of God. Wish I would have addressed it in hindsight, but never did.

  1. Matthew 24:5
    For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many.
  2. Mark 13:6 Many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am He!’ and will mislead many.
  3. Luke 21:8 And He said, “See to it that you are not misled; for many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am He,’ and, ‘The time is near.’ Do not go after them.
I really believe who Jesus is talking to above is saying that yes, many will proclaim Jesus as Messiah, but don't believe everything they say. We live in perilous times, and the wolves are out to fleece the sheep, and we have to be diligent about what messages are coming from the pulpit and activities, or signs and wonders that will occur. Acts 2:17 the devil knows this, and he has his own signs and wonders he can perform, so being discerning and ever mindful of what we see and observe will be critical to understanding the whether it is from the Lord or not.
 
“Do not cook a young goat in its mother’s milk." (Exodus 23:19 NIV)

For the life of me I can't discern any practical or spiritual significance in this one.

If I understand correctly this is where Jews get their (misguided?) prohibition against having cheese on a hamburger (mixing milk and meat products).
 
Been wanting to really dig into the commandments and study them out. So this is more about me right now, but if anyone can glean anything from this exercise, that is a bonus.

Of course I will use the bible as the final authority, but I also have several resources that discuss how the ancient sages interpreted, or practiced the commandments. I am in no way saying they are right, but there is wisdom and understanding with some of the difficult passages, particularly in Leviticus.

I am learning as I go along to, so if I am in error, please let me know. I choose this section cause the rules are more stringent here. I want to learn, not debate please.

So are there any requests for any of the difficult commandments that are hard to understand? If there are, be patient as I will take my time studying them out.

I have been a Christian for 40 years, but until 6 years ago, I had never studied the law. Out of all the sermons I've heard in church over the years, not one has been based on something from the first five books of the Bible. If you count the pages, the books of Moses are about the same size as the entire New Testament. It seemed wrong to me that we Christians should completely ignore such a large part of God's Word, so I started studying it. I have read through the law about 5 times in the last 6 years and have read a number of commentaries, both from Messianic Jewish sources (which included some Orthodox Jewish material as well) and from more traditional Christian sources. I would love to discuss what I've learned, and if you have any questions, feel free to ask.
The TOG
When I started reading the OT I was amazed at how much of the teachings in the NT are right from the pages of our OT's.

Turned out Christianity was not some kind of new set of rules, generally speaking. A new way to fulfill them, yes. But not a new set of rules. I was amazed.
 
[COLOR=blue[B]]“Do not cook a young goat in its mother’s milk." (Exodus 23:19 NIV)

For the life of me I can't discern any practical or spiritual significance in this one.[/B]

If I understand correctly this is where Jews get their (misguided?) prohibition against having cheese on a hamburger (mixing milk and meat products).
[/COLOR]


Some Jewish scholars, including Maimonides, have speculated that it was a ritual practiced by cults of other gods, therefore, prohibited, to Jews. It was a warning against idolatry, worshipping other gods.
 
[COLOR=blue[B]]“Do not cook a young goat in its mother’s milk." (Exodus 23:19 NIV)

For the life of me I can't discern any practical or spiritual significance in this one.[/B]

If I understand correctly this is where Jews get their (misguided?) prohibition against having cheese on a hamburger (mixing milk and meat products).
[/COLOR]


Some Jewish scholars, including Maimonides, have speculated that it was a ritual practiced by cults of other gods, therefore, prohibited, to Jews. It was a warning against idolatry, worshipping other gods.
I'm impressed.

Thank you.

I will never wonder again.
 
“Do not cook a young goat in its mother’s milk."

I try not to do this with my goats as much as possible, but mistakes do happen.

Understanding these laws and learning I believe is a good endeavor. However, to me it seems that all the law is hung on Love your neighbor as yourself and Love God. So, just walking in the Love of God you automatically do not break a whole bunch of these.

One the other hand, A farmer that got fed up with bad crops year after year and the parasites that would just devour his crops, he decided to grow 6 years and not grow a thing on the seventh. He also decided to give his Church 10% of all the money that came in and he decided to give 10% of his corn crop to poor organizations that distribute food and things.

he wrote down all the laws in the Word and made check list. He was gonna grow his crop according to what God said, which is following the law.

On the 8th year His crop produced almost 3 times yield that he ever had gotten, other farmers noticed all the dead bugs along his fence and he did not use any chemicals or pesticides as he got tired of them not working and the expense. One crop brought in what 3 years would have made.

Tithing, growing things and letting the land rest a whole year.............. sounds like keeping the law, but I know you could not have convinced this farmer otherwise. He was able to get more land and died wealthy as he continued to follow the same formula.

It could be God knows more about growing things than man.......... It could be.

Mike.
 
I took a look at the 613 Laws and skimming them, found them (with the exception of the food laws and a few other's) that they were right in line with good old Christian morals and ethics.

[MENTION=91415]Ryan[/MENTION] too. I found the same thing last year as Stovebolts is saying. I would also be interested in this study.
 
“Do not cook a young goat in its mother’s milk." (Exodus 23:19 NIV)

For the life of me I can't discern any practical or spiritual significance in this one.

If I understand correctly this is where Jews get their (misguided?) prohibition against having cheese on a hamburger (mixing milk and meat products).
From what I have gathered, this prohibition is said 3 times in the Torah (Exodus 23:19; Exodus 34:26; Deuteronomy 14:21). The two passages in Exodus mirror each other, and the surrounding context implies it has to do with the pilgrimage Feasts sacrifices. The passage in Deuteronomy the previous context appears different, but the passages following Deuteronomy 14:21 speak to the offering of first fruits and the Feast of Succot. It is clear, that the boil a goat in it's mother's milk was a matter of sacrifice, not dietary laws. So how did this tradition of separating cheese and meat come from?

Some possibilities suggest after the destruction on the Temple and failure of the Jewish revolt under Bar Kochbah, the rabbis began the process of transferring Temple service to daily life within the synagogue communities of the Diaspora. In the same way they transferred what was a temple law, to being a dietary law. It is unclear whether the prohibition made by the rabbis to separate milk and cheese was pre-temple or post temple destruction, but it is clear it was taken out of the biblical context of sacrifice, and into a dietary law based on the preceeding passages in Deuteronomy 14:21 being of kashrut laws. It appears the rabbis solely looked at this passage through the lens of the Deuteronomy passage, neglecting the passages in Exodus consisting of temple worship.

Another possibility could be within rabbinic Judaism, the need to mark distinctions between the synagogue and the emerging Christian church became increasingly important. Making the complete separation of meat and milk an essential element of kashrut laws would have made social interaction with non-Jews via table fellowship a near impossibility.

Rabbinic literature offers little to no commentary on Genesis 18:1-8 on when Jesus, I mean The Lord, appeared to Abraham, and Abraham served his guests meat and milk. This is probably because prior to the destruction of the temple, the concern was cooking meat in milk, not in eating the two together.

Although the Mishnah attributes the concerns of the House of Hillel and Shammai, rabbis living in the pre-destruction era of the temple. That the Mishnah would portray Hillel and Shammai as concerned with meat and milk being a dietary prohibition, which in the biblical context of the Torah is about sacrificial service, agrees with a common phenomenon of the later rabbis attributing their newly formed halachah to earlier authorities in order to give it greater weight. Which we all do at times when we say, "Well my dad said this..." It's the same idea.

So that's just a brief summary of how I found this commandment evolved from a sacrificial commandment from God, to a man-made dietary commandment.
 
“Do not cook a young goat in its mother’s milk." (Exodus 23:19 NIV)

For the life of me I can't discern any practical or spiritual significance in this one.

If I understand correctly this is where Jews get their (misguided?) prohibition against having cheese on a hamburger (mixing milk and meat products).
From what I have gathered, this prohibition is said 3 times in the Torah (Exodus 23:19; Exodus 34:26; Deuteronomy 14:21). The two passages in Exodus mirror each other, and the surrounding context implies it has to do with the pilgrimage Feasts sacrifices. The passage in Deuteronomy the previous context appears different, but the passages following Deuteronomy 14:21 speak to the offering of first fruits and the Feast of Succot. It is clear, that the boil a goat in it's mother's milk was a matter of sacrifice, not dietary laws. So how did this tradition of separating cheese and meat come from?

Some possibilities suggest after the destruction on the Temple and failure of the Jewish revolt under Bar Kochbah, the rabbis began the process of transferring Temple service to daily life within the synagogue communities of the Diaspora. In the same way they transferred what was a temple law, to being a dietary law. It is unclear whether the prohibition made by the rabbis to separate milk and cheese was pre-temple or post temple destruction, but it is clear it was taken out of the biblical context of sacrifice, and into a dietary law based on the preceeding passages in Deuteronomy 14:21 being of kashrut laws. It appears the rabbis solely looked at this passage through the lens of the Deuteronomy passage, neglecting the passages in Exodus consisting of temple worship.

Another possibility could be within rabbinic Judaism, the need to mark distinctions between the synagogue and the emerging Christian church became increasingly important. Making the complete separation of meat and milk an essential element of kashrut laws would have made social interaction with non-Jews via table fellowship a near impossibility.

Rabbinic literature offers little to no commentary on Genesis 18:1-8 on when Jesus, I mean The Lord, appeared to Abraham, and Abraham served his guests meat and milk. This is probably because prior to the destruction of the temple, the concern was cooking meat in milk, not in eating the two together.

Although the Mishnah attributes the concerns of the House of Hillel and Shammai, rabbis living in the pre-destruction era of the temple. That the Mishnah would portray Hillel and Shammai as concerned with meat and milk being a dietary prohibition, which in the biblical context of the Torah is about sacrificial service, agrees with a common phenomenon of the later rabbis attributing their newly formed halachah to earlier authorities in order to give it greater weight. Which we all do at times when we say, "Well my dad said this..." It's the same idea.

So that's just a brief summary of how I found this commandment evolved from a sacrificial commandment from God, to a man-made dietary commandment.

How does this endless studying of Rabbinic literature have anything to do with faith.

Without faith it is impossible to please God.


JLB
 
Deuteronomy 6:9 You shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates.

Pertains to the commandment of attaching a mezuzah, with the Word of God written to the posts on ones house and gates. Primarily the Shema was written on a little scroll and placed inside the mezuzah. When we look at this commandment from a Messianic perspective, and I am not talking about the movement, I am talking about Jesus. If you look at the link: http://www.israelimages.com/searchr...pg&watermark_text=6624&watermark_color=ffffff, it is a picture of a mezuzah with a picture of someone nailing their mezuzah to the doorframe.

Jerusalem and the Temple in it was to be the House of God. God says my house is to be a house of prayer (Isaiah 56:7). Jerusalem is the gateway to heaven. So in the attachment, you have someone nailing the Word of God to a post. Just as the mezuzah was nailed to a post, so was Messiah, the Living Word of God was nailed to a post. So the mezuzah, the Word of God (Jesus), was nailed on a post at the gate of Jerusalem in the House of God. When passing by the mezuzah, it is custom to touch the mezuzah with your hands and place it upon your lips (Deuteronomy 30:14). Can't help but think of the following passages:

Psalms 2:12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

Psalm 118:19-21 Open to me the gates of righteousness: I will go into them, and I will praise the Lord: 20 This gate of the Lord, into which the righteous shall enter. 21 I will praise thee: for thou hast heard me, and art become my salvation.
 
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[MENTION=90220]JLB[/MENTION] Because some of the erroneous conclusions of the rabbis have made their way into Christendom, and merely putting the commandments back into their rightful, biblical context. Combining cheese and meat is not a prohibition as some have thought. The ancient sages and Rabbi's of old had some deep wisdom and insight into Torah, so to discount them would be in error. Their comments are no different then a Matthew Henry commentary. Some good stuff, some not so good stuff.
 
@JLB Because some of the erroneous conclusions of the rabbis have made their way into Christendom, and merely putting the commandments back into their rightful, biblical context. Combining cheese and meat is not a prohibition as some have thought. The ancient sages and Rabbi's of old had some deep wisdom and insight into Torah, so to discount them would be in error. Their comments are no different then a Matthew Henry commentary. Some good stuff, some not so good stuff.

What in the world does combining cheese and meat have to do with faith.

The Law is not of faith.

Without faith it is impossible to please God.
 
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Their comments are no different then a Matthew Henry commentary. Some good stuff, some not so good stuff.

I am not a fan of Matthew Henry, but I know some believers do look into the Rabbi studies and mash that with Bible. Being WOF, on such that I hear is Billy Brim. About everything she teaches has to have some Rabbi or Jewish slant to it.

Without faith it is impossible to please God.

My Question though, is what is being taught producing faith? Is it going to make me stand for healing, get bills paid, get free, help others get healed and free. There is a point where History is good, but with so little time, I almost don't like wasting it on learning traditions.

Mike.
 
This thread has been moved to A&T . The rules for the FOS do not allow the type of posting that is being posted.... I will also restate the OP and a couple post back into the FOS.... Please read the sticky for the FOS it is strict and will be kept so.... Make your choice as to which forum you wish to post in . Reading our posts here might help us understand how to post in the FOS. Thanks Moderator...
 
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