The 613 something or another

[TOG]

In reading your reply i read you keep the laws like every one else, that being, how you feel they apply to you... ... I was under the impression there would be something more.

Not quite. It's not about how I feel they apply, but how the Bible says they apply. For example, there is a commandment that tells farmers to neither sow nor reap every seventh year. To be able to keep that commandment, I would have to have crops to sow and reap the other 6 years. Since I'm not a farmer and have no crops, that commandment doesn't apply to me. If I ever did decide to grow something (I'm a horticulturalist), then that would apply and I would follow it. Every command either applies to everybody, or only to a specific group, such as farmers, males, females, first-born or some other group. If a commandment applies to everybody, then it applies to me. If it applies to a group I belong to (such as males), then it applies to me. If it applies to a group I don't belong to (such as farmers), then it doesn't apply to me. If I change groups (e.g. if I become a farmer), then the rules that apply change, and I follow the newly applicable rules.

You have labeled your self a gentile I see gentile is one of the 3 choices why not label your self of the church of God?

I chose "Gentile" as part of my user name, in relation to the "Torah Observant" part, as opposed to a "Torah observant Jew". I am, of course, also part of the church of God. Jews are physical descendants of Jacob (AKA Israel). Gentiles are everybody else. There are both Jews and Gentiles in the church of God. So, why the 3 choices then? If you read the whole chapter, you'll see that this is said in the context of eating meat that has been offered to idols. Contrary to what many teach, Paul actually says that we should avoid such meat if we know it has been sacrificed. But, whether we eat it or not, we should do it in such a way that it doesn't offend others, neither the (unsaved) Gentiles who offer it to us, the (unsaved) Jews who believe it is unclean, nor the saved Jews and Gentiles in the church who, because of their various stages of maturity, sometimes believe it's sinful and sometimes not. Note that this is not about eating pork or shellfish, but about otherwise kosher food, such as beef or lamb, which has been offered to an idol.

The TOG
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[reba]

I get the farmer thing and male female all that makes sense .... do you go to Israel for the feast of tabernacles?

Gentiles are also heathens ....


I will hold back a collect a few thoughts... Trying to mod and post puts my head in a spin

 

[TOG]

I get the farmer thing and male female all that makes sense .... do you go to Israel for the feast of tabernacles?

I would if I could afford to. Even though I am not able to go 3 times a year, I would love to go to Israel some time and live in a tabernacle for a week.

Gentiles are also heathens ....

Some are, some aren't. The word "Gentile" is used to translate the Greek word "ethnikos", which means "the nations". It's where we get the English word "ethnic" from. "Ethnikos" is used in the Septuagint to translate the Hebrew word "goy", which means foreigner. In other words, it's anyone who isn't a Jew. It has also been used to refer to non-Christians, but considering that every author of the New Testament except Luke was a Jew, I think the other explanation is more likely.

The TOG
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[JLB]

Thought you had me, didn't you.

No, not really.

The Law of Moses has in it Laws that are Law of God's Kingdom, that we need to obey.

However, the Law contained in ordinances, about ceremonial washings, various animal sacrifices, food laws... That were pertainent to the Children of Israel are all but useless for us today, except seeing the magnificent way God hid all the shadows and types that are beautiful mysteries for us to discover.

Another words the literal interpretation of the law is of little use to us, it is the prophetic implication that we need to study.

The Literal Laws that say Abraham walked in, are still for us today, as some are seen in the Law of Moses.

However, without obeying His Voice, the laws and precepts and commandments are of no consequence.


JLB

 

[theLords]

Could you make a list of the Laws that are applicable for us who are Gentiles that don't live in Israel?

Thought you had me, didn't you. Well, it just so happens that I actually have such a list. I made it when I first decided to study the law. The first thing I did in my studies was to read through the law and write down every commandment I could find. Give me some time to find the list and I'll post it. It's not nearly as long as you probably think.

The TOG
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I'd really love to see that list. Are you making any leeway on it?

I'm always interested in hearing what laws the TOG-ers keep. I admit, as of yet, I haven't found the TOG theology without it's holes. It always seems to me that there's a picking and choosing of which laws to keep.

How do you approach ceremonial, purification type commands and the stoning commandments? Can I stone my rebellious siblings yet? :rolling

 

[Deborah13]

Could you make a list of the Laws that are applicable for us who are Gentiles that don't live in Israel?

Thought you had me, didn't you. Well, it just so happens that I actually have such a list. I made it when I first decided to study the law. The first thing I did in my studies was to read through the law and write down every commandment I could find. Give me some time to find the list and I'll post it. It's not nearly as long as you probably think.

The TOG
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I tried that, I couldn't come up with 613. So I went to the Jews for help with that. There were some that I didn't recognize as being Torah.

After I got a list from a Jewish site, I quickly realized that the 603 (minus the 10) all seem to fit under the 10. They are details as how to observe or instruction of the 10. If one is a backbiter/gossip, it is like murdering that person through damaging or destroying their reputation. (Not that you could be stoned for that,?). But certainly not tolerated. So I did a search to see if I could find a Jewish definition...they have a special name for the 10.

"But what about the so-called "Ten Commandments," the words recorded in Exodus 20, the words that the Creator Himself wrote on the two stone tablets that Moses brought down from Mount Sinai (Ex. 31:18), which Moses smashed upon seeing the idolatry of the golden calf (Ex. 32:19)? In the Torah, these words are never referred to as the Ten Commandments. In the Torah, they are called Aseret ha-D'varim (Ex. 34:28, Deut. 4:13 and Deut. 10:4). In rabbinical texts, they are referred to as Aseret ha-Dibrot. The words d'varim and dibrot come from the Hebrew root Dalet-Beit-Reish, meaning word, speak or thing; thus, the phrase is accurately translated as the Ten Sayings, the Ten Statements, the Ten Declarations, the Ten Words or even the Ten Things, but not as the Ten Commandments, which would be Aseret ha-Mitzvot.
The Aseret ha-Dibrot are not understood as individual mitzvot; rather, they are categories or classifications of mitzvot. Each of the 613 mitzvot can be subsumed under one of these ten categories, some in more obvious ways than others. For example, the mitzvah not to work on Shabbat rather obviously falls within the category of remembering the Sabbath day and keeping it holy. The mitzvah to fast on Yom Kippur fits into that category somewhat less obviously: all holidays are in some sense a Sabbath, and the category encompasses any mitzvah related to sacred time. The mitzvah not to stand aside while a person's life is in danger fits somewhat obviously into the category against murder. It is not particularly obvious, however, that the mitzvah not to embarrass a person fits within the category against murder: it causes the blood to drain from your face thereby shedding blood. "
http://www.jewfaq.org/10.htm

 

[TOG]

I'd really love to see that list. Are you making any leeway on it?

I found it. Now I just have to set it up so somebody besides me can understand it. I'll have it up in a day or two.

How do you approach ceremonial, purification type commands and the stoning commandments?

The "stoning commandments" were not something ordinary people were supposed to do. They are the punishment for breaking the commandments and were to be implemented only after a person had been found guilty by a court based on the testimony of 2 or more reliable witnesses. They were similar to the death sentence found in some American laws. Just because you see someone break such a law doesn't mean you can kill him. A court has to hear his case first.

The purity laws were about the tabernacle/temple. To be unclean meant to be ritually unfit to enter the temple grounds, to offer a sacrifice or to touch any of the sacred objects. Being ritually unfit wasn't a sin, but a part of everyday life. Many common things could render a person ritually unfit, such as childbirth or being in the same room as a dead body. The "cure" for ritual unfitness was usually a waiting period (most often being "unclean until evening") and then bathing in water. Sometimes a sacrifice was required after a person had been cleansed.

Since they were all about the temple, the purity laws aren't really applicable today, since there is no temple. Besides that, we can't offer the required sacrifices for the same reason. We are, therefore, all perpetually unclean and, according to the purity laws, unfit to approach God. Thankfully, if we have faith in God, His son cleanses us from all uncleanness, and we can approach Him.

Can I stone my rebellious siblings yet?

I'm afraid I have bad news for you. You can't stone your siblings. Sorry.

The TOG
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[TOG]

I tried that, I couldn't come up with 613. So I went to the Jews for help with that. There were some that I didn't recognize as being Torah.

I didn't get 613 either. I got something over 700. How many you get depends on what you define as a commandment. For example, the Bible tells us to rest on the Sabbath and it also tells us not to work on the Sabbath. Is that one commandment or two? The commandment against idolatry in the Ten Commandments tells us not to make idols, not to bow down to idols and not to serve idols. It also tells us not to make a graven image of anything above the earth, on the earth or under the earth. So, how many commandments is that? Many commandments are repeated using different words or have "sub-commandments" and people will differ on how to count them. The number 613 is from a rabbi named Mosheh ben Maimon, better known as Maimonides or Rambam (an acronym for Rabbi Moshe ben Maimon). He counted the commandments that it was possible to keep in his day (12th century) and came up with 613. Since then, many others have counted and all come up with 613 commandments because that's the "right" number, but their lists have not necessarily been the same as Rambam's list.

The TOG
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[theLords]

I found it. Now I just have to set it up so somebody besides me can understand it. I'll have it up in a day or two.

I really appreciate you taking the time to post the list. I can't imagine it's an easy task so thanks. Bummer on the stoning though...I had my pebbles all lined up and everything! ;-)

Would you expand on the purification....particularly the uncleanliness/roles of women through the Torah. Some of the stuff I'm thinking about Leviticus 12, Leviticus 15:19-24, Deuteronomy 22:28-29, Deuteronomy 25:5, Deuteronomy 24:5.

Those are just a few. Obviously, difficult and controversial, and I'd appreciate your perspective on this.

The hump that I can't get over is James 2:10. I hear your take on "purification, not possible anymore because the Jewish Temple was destroyed, but we have the purification of Christ."

That's where my greatest issue lies...the commands for purification were nullified in Christ because He fulfills those laws for me, but it doesn't stop at X place (say dietary). I just see picking and choosing and James makes it clears it's all or nothing. I don't think I'll ever overcome that obstacle and don't feel any particular call or leading to become TOing. I'm just not "fully convinced in my own mind" but I thank you for taking the time to share your way of thinking in this.

 

[Deborah13]

Since then, many others have counted and all come up with 613 commandments because that's the "right" number, but their lists have not necessarily been the same as Rambam's list.

I can see that. So how would one even know they were obeying all the Torah, by the Law of Moses?

I think God did this on purpose. In the NT, He says "two commandments, I give you". Between the Holy Spirit, heart and mind, we can know what is right in the treatment of others. If we love God, we know He will cleanse us and teach us.

I'd never get it all right and James says, "if you missed in one point, you've broken them all."

But even in the OT, God was full of grace and mercy, for those who would seek Him by faith.

 

[TOG]

I'd really love to see that list. Are you making any leeway on it?

Here it is... The list you've all been waiting for... But first something about the list. This isn't a list of all the commandments. The fact is that all or nearly all Christians agree on most of the commandments. Nobody's arguing bout whether or not to keep the commandments against murder or rape. There are also some commandments that are impossible, for example because they require a temple in Jerusalem or something else which we don't have access to. Those commandments aren't on the list. Also, there are some commandments which it is possible to keep, but which require you to actually live in Israel. This list wasn't made for everybody, but just me. Since I don't live in Israel, I didn't include those either. Some are possible but only apply to groups to which I don't belong, such as farmers. They aren't included either. These are commandments that everyone can keep if they want to, but which most Christians don't keep.

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1. Do not eat suet (Lev. 3:17, 7:23-25)
2. Do not eat blood (Gen. 9:4)
3. Do not eat the meat of unclean animals (Lev.11:1-23)
4. Dedicate all first born to God (Ex. 13:2)
5. Explain to your children the meaning of the Torah, and the Exodus (Deu. 6:20-25)
6. If a man divorces a woman and she marries someone else who later either divorces her or dies, the first husband is not allowed to marry her again. (Deu. 24:2-4)
7. Do not lend at interest to God's people (Ex. 22:25)
8. Keep the Sabbath Holy (Ex. 20:8, 31:13-14, Lev. 23:3)
9. Keep the annual Biblical festivals (Lev. 23:4-36)
10. Do not have sex with a woman during her period (Lev. 18: 19)
11. Circumcise male children on the 8th day (Lev. 12:3)
12. Put tzitziyot (fringes) on the corners of your garments (Num. 15:38)
13. Do not mention the names of other gods (Ex. 23:13)
14. Do not practice pagan customs and say you are doing it for YHVH (Ex. 32:4-10, Deu. 12:4, 30-31)
15. Do not add to the Torah (Deu. 4:2)
16. Do not take away from the Torah (Deu. 4:2)
17. Teach the Torah to your children (Deu. 4:10) (Implied)
18. Learn the Torah (Deu. 5:1)
19. Do not bring the „gift of a whore or the pay of a dog“ into God's house (Deu. 23:18)
20. Do not wear a garment woven of wool and linen (flax) (Lev. 19:19, Deu. 22:11)

That's it. There's a grand total of 20 commandment that Christians disagree on.

The TOG
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[Deborah13]

I really appreciate you taking the time to post the list. I can't imagine it's an easy task so thanks. Bummer on the stoning though...I had my pebbles all lined up and everything! ;-)

@TOG , posted a good list that he feels we can keep. Here is a list of 613, that are from Rambam list.
http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm

I propose there are other keepable ones that are not on TOG's list, such as Lev. 15:1-24, personally I would have loved this one being kept when I had a house full of kids. It could be done....I think. There's no purification ceremony necessary, unless I didn't read it correctly.

 

[reba]

By the act of shorting the list of laws one is taking away from the Torah # 16.


Isnt there a passage about if dont keep them all you havent kept any something down those lines?



How about a reading of Titus ?

 

[JLB]

I'd really love to see that list. Are you making any leeway on it?

Here it is... The list you've all been waiting for... But first something about the list. This isn't a list of all the commandments. The fact is that all or nearly all Christians agree on most of the commandments. Nobody's arguing bout whether or not to keep the commandments against murder or rape. There are also some commandments that are impossible, for example because they require a temple in Jerusalem or something else which we don't have access to. Those commandments aren't on the list. Also, there are some commandments which it is possible to keep, but which require you to actually live in Israel. This list wasn't made for everybody, but just me. Since I don't live in Israel, I didn't include those either. Some are possible but only apply to groups to which I don't belong, such as farmers. They aren't included either. These are commandments that everyone can keep if they want to, but which most Christians don't keep.

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1. Do not eat suet (Lev. 3:17, 7:23-25)
2. Do not eat blood (Gen. 9:4)
3. Do not eat the meat of unclean animals (Lev.11:1-23)
4. Dedicate all first born to God (Ex. 13:2)
5. Explain to your children the meaning of the Torah, and the Exodus (Deu. 6:20-25)
6. If a man divorces a woman and she marries someone else who later either divorces her or dies, the first husband is not allowed to marry her again. (Deu. 24:2-4)
7. Do not lend at interest to God's people (Ex. 22:25)
8. Keep the Sabbath Holy (Ex. 20:8, 31:13-14, Lev. 23:3)
9. Keep the annual Biblical festivals (Lev. 23:4-36)
10. Do not have sex with a woman during her period (Lev. 18: 19)
11. Circumcise male children on the 8th day (Lev. 12:3)
12. Put tzitziyot (fringes) on the corners of your garments (Num. 15:38)
13. Do not mention the names of other gods (Ex. 23:13)
14. Do not practice pagan customs and say you are doing it for YHVH (Ex. 32:4-10, Deu. 12:4, 30-31)
15. Do not add to the Torah (Deu. 4:2)
16. Do not take away from the Torah (Deu. 4:2)
17. Teach the Torah to your children (Deu. 4:10) (Implied)
18. Learn the Torah (Deu. 5:1)
19. Do not bring the „gift of a whore or the pay of a dog“ into God's house (Deu. 23:18)
20. Do not wear a garment woven of wool and linen (flax) (Lev. 19:19, Deu. 22:11)

That's it. There's a grand total of 20 commandment that Christians disagree on.

The TOG
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Who is the name of the person who has authorized this list.


Do not take away from the Torah (Deu. 4:2)

There is either 613, or there is none.


JLB

 

[TOG]

By the act of shorting the list of laws one is taking away from the Torah # 16.

I wasn't shortening the list. I provided an excerpt that I felt was relevant to this discussion. Like I said, there is no argument about most of the commandments, therefore there isn't any need to discuss the especially. But if you want to discuss whether we need to keep the commandment forbidding murder, then I'm willing to do that. I'm pretty sure it will be a short discussion though. I believe we should keep all of the commandments, not all but 20. But it's just those 20 that people disagree on, so they're the ones I listed.

Isnt there a passage about if dont keep them all you havent kept any something down those lines?

You mean this?...

For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it. (James 2:10 ESV)
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If you keep all the commandments, but don't keep the Sabbath, then you have become accountable for the whole law.

How about a reading of Titus ?

Sure.

Show yourself in all respects to be a model of good works (Titus 2:7 ESV)

who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works. (Titus 2:14 ESV)

The saying is trustworthy, and I want you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed in God may be careful to devote themselves to good works. (Titus 3:8 ESV)
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Paul encouraged Titus to do good works and to teach others the same. The question is, what defines what "good works" are? I believe the Torah does that for us. It tells us what's right and what's wrong. But then there's also this from Titus:

He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness (Titus 3:5 ESV)
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So we're not saved by doing good works, but we are still supposed to do them. That's exactly what I have been saying.

The TOG
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[TOG]

Who is the name of the person who has authorized this list.

I compiled it.

Do not take away from the Torah (Deu. 4:2)

There is either 613, or there is none.

Please read my posts completely before criticizing them. I explained why they all aren't there. Of course, if you want to debate "thou shallt not kill" or " "thou shallt not steal", then I guess we can do that.

The TOG
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[TOG]

I propose there are other keepable ones that are not on TOG's list, such as Lev. 15:1-24, personally I would have loved this one being kept when I had a house full of kids. It could be done....I think. There's no purification ceremony necessary, unless I didn't read it correctly.

I think you read it correctly, but it's not really a commandment. It says what to do when a woman becomes unclean because of her period or when a man becomes unclean because of an ejaculation or an STD, but there is no commandment "do not have your period" or "do not ejaculate".

The TOG
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[Deborah13]

I propose there are other keepable ones that are not on TOG's list, such as Lev. 15:1-24, personally I would have loved this one being kept when I had a house full of kids. It could be done....I think. There's no purification ceremony necessary, unless I didn't read it correctly.

I think you read it correctly, but it's not really a commandment. It says what to do when a woman becomes unclean because of her period or when a man becomes unclean because of an ejaculation or an STD, but there is no commandment "do not have your period" or "do not ejaculate".

The TOG
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?? I don't think so.... if there is a penalty for not compiling then it is a law. It must be followed by law, there were laws for everything in life. For farming, to families, to intimate relationship, judiciary, and ceremonially and purification. It was a theocracy.

Leviticus 15 NKJV
31 ‘Thus you shall separate the children of Israel from their uncleanness, lest they die in their uncleanness when they defile My tabernacle that is among them. 32 This is the law for one who has a discharge, and for him who emits semen and is unclean thereby, 33 and for her who is indisposed because of her customary impurity, and for one who has a discharge, either man or woman, and for him who lies with her who is unclean.’”

Leviticus 19
18You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord.

What is the difference between a commandment and a law?
These are both in the Law of Moses..

 

[reba]

My mistake blaming old eyes I should have said Timothy not Titus in Post #53

1Ti 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope;
1Ti 1:2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.
1Ti 1:3 As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine,
1Ti 1:4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.
1Ti 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:

1Ti 1:6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;
1Ti 1:7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
1Ti 1:8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
1Ti 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

 

[Deborah13]

1Ti 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned

1 Corinthians 13 KJV
13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity. :yes