The 613 something or another

[JLB]

It depends on what you mean by "have to". You don't have to observe the Day of Atonement to become saved. You don't have to observe the Day of Atonement to stay saved. But observing the Day of Atonement can be useful. It's a day when we stop all work and fast and meditate on the meaning of the day, which is God's righteous judgment of, repentance and atonement. As Christians, we can see Christ through the Day of Atonement. It was Christ who took upon himself God's righteous judgment and atoned for our sins. While taking a day off to meditate on that isn't essential for salvation, it can still be a good thing to do.

Thats awesome Brother.

I think you know, however that many believe differently. That one must do these things as the Law of Moses commands, in order to be Obedient to God.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

For example, why does someone HAVE to observe the Mosaic Day of Atonement when they have accomplished forever what that day sought to do (for one year) through faith in Christ?

It depends on what you mean by "have to". You don't have to observe the Day of Atonement to become saved. You don't have to observe the Day of Atonement to stay saved. But observing the Day of Atonement can be useful. It's a day when we stop all work and fast and meditate on the meaning of the day, which is God's righteous judgment of, repentance and atonement. As Christians, we can see Christ through the Day of Atonement. It was Christ who took upon himself God's righteous judgment and atoned for our sins. While taking a day off to meditate on that isn't essential for salvation, it can still be a good thing to do.

The TOG
​

The only 'have to' connected with the ceremonial law of Moses is the 'have to' of conscience. There is no benefit sewed by God into the fabric of keeping the ceremonial law for the believer that only law keeping can secure.

One thing the church has done quite well is understand the atonement. It isn't necessary to act out the shadow to get the full understanding of the reality the shadow points to. It helps those who do not have the reality see and appreciate the reality. Namely...the Jews.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

There is both Biblical and historical evidence that the Gentile Christians did keep the law, in some cases for centuries after the crucifixion.

We know that. But that's not the point I was making. The Bible, and history, both show us that Christianity was never about now educating the gentiles in the observances of the Mosaic law. In fact, that is the notably absent feature of the NT letters to the church......nothing there about being careful to keep the ceremonial and separation laws of Moses. Just the moral law of Moses.

Let us therefore celebrate the festival, not with the old leaven, the leaven of malice and evil, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. (I Cor. 5:8 ESV)
​

Here Paul is telling Gentile Christians to keep the Feast of Unleavened Bread, not just to commemorate the Exodus, but with a new and deeper meaning.

I've been over and over this with law keepers. It's impossible to derive a literal Feast out of the passage. But it's very easy to see he's talking figuratively about the leaven of sin and how we keep the real 'Feast of Unleavened Bread' now that the real Passover Lamb, Christ, has been sacrificed.

It's clearly a figurative application of the Passover, and the Feast of Unleavened Bread that follows on the heels of that day. Christ is the Lamb. We are the 'household', the household of believers that is to have no leaven of sin found anywhere within it's borders now that Christ the Lamb has been consumed. That's the context of the passage, not Paul instructing the Corinthians to keep the literal Festival. It breaks the flow of the letter to suddenly inject a command to keep a literal Festival in the middle of balling the Corinthians out for letting the leaven of sin dwell in their midst.

 

[stovebolts]

why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews?

Who in the world is advocating that Gentiles should live as Jews? Is this where our misunderstanding comes from?

Listen, we should study these things so we can better understand them. What's wrong with studying the feasts, rituals etc etc etc? There is a lot we can take away from studying them and even partaking in some of them if we desire. At the very least, if we study these things from a Jewish perspective, we will have a far deeper understanding of the NT.

As far as Messianic Jews, Paul never told any Jewish Christians that they had to stop partaking in the feasts, Sabbaths or food laws. His message to them was that salvation was through grace and that they were no longer condemned by the law. If you understand the Law, then Romans 5 through 8 will make way more sense. Paul isn't having a mental breakdown in Romans 8, what he's doing is showing how the law condemns us if we understand the law. Jesus makes this clear in Matthew 5 through 8 that nobody can keep the law... it's impossible. That is why the need for the sacrificial system... which is why the need for Jesus to be both a Sacrifice and an Offering (Ephesians 4).

 

[stovebolts]

We have liberty to choose the feast to observe or not.

We have liberty to choose the food we eat or not.

Those that say we must keep the law to be obedient, don't have that liberty.

I agree, but scriptures also state that for those that keep those laws, we are to be respectful to them. Paul even goes on to say that if eating meat causes another man to sin, then he will not eat meat because for some, eating meat offered to idols is a sin, and if to him it is a sin, then we don't cause them to sin. It's about being respectful to how others live while maintaining the understanding that we are no under the same yoke.

In short, its a sin for us to force our freedom upon them as much as it's a sin for them to force their rules upon us. It's about living out the commandment, "Love your neighbor" which isn't a lofty spiritual feel good. It's tough an gritty because loving your neighbor sometimes means treating your neighbor better than you would treat yourself.

 

[JLB]

Who in the world is advocating that Gentiles should live as Jews?

Anyone who advocates the keeping of Jewish ceremonial laws.

They think that by following some Jewish ceremonial laws, that is being obedient to God.


JLB

 

[stovebolts]

Who in the world is advocating that Gentiles should live as Jews?

Anyone who advocates the keeping of Jewish ceremonial laws.

They think that by following some Jewish ceremonial laws, that is being obedient to God.


JLB

First, not everyone in this thread is saying that...

However, iif that is their way of being obedient to God, then rather than saying they are wrong, show them our freedoms and respect what is sinful to them. If they force their yoke upon them, Paul writes enough encouraging things about this very matter that brings both sides to reconciliation that we ought to quote Paul on the matter. If they disagree with Paul, as some do, then they need to be mindful that we take Paul's writings as the inspired words of God and as such they need to respect that.

What we don't need is more division. Jesus said that the world would know us by our unity and unity is not uniformity. Paul was consistent in trying his hardest to bring reconciliation between the Jews and Greeks and yes, it is frustrating and in response, Paul decided he would focus his attention on the gentiles.

So then, if for some being obedient to the ceremonial laws is part of being obedient to God, as long as they understand the basic gospel that Jesus is Lord and salvation is by grace, then we ought to let them continue being obedient in the way they feel fit.

 

[JLB]

What we don't need is more division. Jesus said that the world would know us by our unity and unity is not uniformity

We are to be unified in the truth, not just for the sake of unity.

34 "Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. 35 For I have come to 'set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law'; 36 and 'a man's enemies will be those of his own household.' 37 He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. 38 And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. Matthew 10:34-38


Jesus did not come to bring unity amongst those who are not of the truth.

Here is what Jesus did not say -

He who does not keep the law of Moses is not worthy of Me.

We have died to the Law -

But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter. Romans 7:6

and again -

For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God. Galatians 2:19

Brother, do you understand that if Paul were to have tried to come back to Jerusalem every year three times a year, that he would have spent all his time and money trying to keep the law and would not have lived for God.

However, iif that is their way of being obedient to God, then rather than saying they are wrong, show them our freedoms and respect what is sinful to them.

I show what the scriptures say.


JLB

 

[JLB]

So then, if for some being obedient to the ceremonial laws is part of being obedient to God, as long as they understand the basic gospel that Jesus is Lord and salvation is by grace, then we ought to let them continue being obedient in the way they feel fit.

If they are born again and filled with the Spirit, then the Spirit of God will lead and guide them into all truth.

If all they are about is trying to keep the law of Moses, so that they feel complete in some way, then the scriptures are clear as what Paul taught.


Here is what Paul said -

Receive one who is weak in the faith...

5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks. 7 For none of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself. 8 For if we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. Therefore, whether we live or die, we are the Lord's. 9 For to this end Christ died and rose and lived again, that He might be Lord of both the dead and the living. 10 But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written: "As I live, says the Lord, Every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall confess to God."

... Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. 23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin. Romans 14


If you are going to correct me, then at least correct me for the right issue, which is not unity.

What you should be correcting me for is showing that someone who needs a special diet, or to where special clothing, or to observe special days is weak in the faith.

They need these things to prop up there faith.

These things are not necessary for the spirit-filled new testament believer, but are allowed because of the liberty we have.

But please know that Paul says that a person who does these things are weak in the faith.

Remember the context of Romans 14:

It begins and ends about faith.

Receive one who is weak in the faith... for whatever is not from faith is sin.

So if a person who wants to say, clean the yeast out of their house on the week of Passover, because that is what a Messianic Rabbi has taught him to do, to be obedient to God, but leaves the Playboy magazines hidden in his closet.

Is that faith?

Is that God moving on him to clean the yeast out of his house, or is that a legalistic rule from man?

If not, it is sin!


JLB

 

[stovebolts]

[MENTION=90220]JLB[/MENTION]

When I read those passages, I catch on to the idea that we are not to be a stumbling block for those with a weaker faith. It is not a sin to have a weaker faith and those mentioned in Romans 14 so those things to the Lord. 18 Whoever thus serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men. 19 So then let us pursue what makes for peace and for mutual upbuilding.

You see, the focus is on unity and mutual upbuilding and it's done in a way that the one with the stronger faith accepts his brother with weaker faith. Not only does he accept his brother with the weaker faith, but he accommodates his brother in what he does because we do not want to be a stumbling block to our brother. Why? Because what our weaker brother does, he does so in faith, and he does so to the Lord.

What I want to highlight is that Paul says weaker faith, not perfect faith. When Paul mentions no faith as being a sin, he is not talking of one with weaker faith.

So if a person who wants to say, clean the yeast out of their house on the week of Passover, because that is what a Messianic Rabbi has taught him to do, to be obedient to God, but leaves the Playboy magazines hidden in his closet.

Is that faith?

Is that God moving on him to clean the yeast out of his house, or is that a legalistic rule from man?

If not, it is sin!

Sin is sin.... It is not a sin for a Messianic Jew, or a Jew to clean all the yeast out of their house for Passover.
It's a sin to lust after a woman, playboy or not.

Let me ask you a question. Have you ever, ever looked at a somebody with lustful eyes? How about at Church?

 

[JLB]

Sin is sin.... It is not a sin for a Messianic Jew, or a Jew to clean all the yeast out of their house for Passover.

whatever is not of faith is sin.

Can you see my point?

It's a sin to lust after a woman, playboy or not.

My point exactly.

What good does cleaning yeast out of your house on Passover week, when you have sin in your heart and don't deal with it because you are concerned with keeping man made rules, rather that repenting and getting cleansed by the blood of Jesus.


JLB

 

[stovebolts]

whatever is not of faith is sin.

Can you see my point?

I see your point, but I think you missed the mark on getting there.
How can you judge a persons heart in the matter of cleaning out all the yeast from their house for Passover? Moreso, it shows your lack of Torah. Why? Because God's word... God's Law says to remove ALL the yeast from your home. (Exodus 12:15 On the first day you shall remove leaven out of your houses ) and then in the same breath call this a man made rule?

I cannot judge a persons heart on the matter of removing yeast from their house on Passover. Moreso, I cannot tell a Messianic Jew to not participate in Passover. They are free to do so if they please as they are under the same grace that we gentiles are under. Remember Paul's words as he repeats the words of Jesus. First to the Jews, then to the gentiles. It is us gentiles that are grafted in. We do not have to participate in any of the Jewish holidays, but we are not forbidden to do so either if it is done in faith unto our Lord. For the record, I'm a regular old gentile who celebrates Easter, Halloween and Christmas. Oh, and I love a good birthday party... all man made holidays by the way... Are you now saying that I'm sinning in the matter?

Now then, going home and looking at a dirty magazine is a pretty good indication of ones heart. I've heard some people say tongue in cheek, "I get it for the articles".

 

[JLB]

How can you judge a persons heart in the matter of cleaning out all the yeast from their house for Passover?

I don't judge there heart.

I evaluate their actions.

God's Law says to remove ALL the yeast from your home.

God's Law says to sacrifice an unblemished goat on Passover.

If I did that today, would I be obeying a Law of God or of man?


JLB

 

[JLB]

It is us gentiles that are grafted in. We do not have to participate in any of the Jewish holidays, but we are not forbidden to do so either if it is done in faith unto our Lord.

A person has grace to do so.

Paul teaches in Galatians that there is a line the you can cross.

If a person is already saved by faith through grace, and they begin to start keeping more and more Laws from the Law of Moses, because they are being taught that by Messianic Rabbis.

The person knows that he is saved by grace, but continues to do more and more because he feels compelled.

At what point does someone need to warn them that they are "turning away" from Christ, as Paul teaches.

Turning away means they were saved, but now they are turning away from Him.

Where is the line?


JLB

 

[stovebolts]

I don't judge there heart.

I evaluate their actions.

Then why do you put taking all the yeast out of their house for Passover in comparison with looking at porn ?

So if a person who wants to say, clean the yeast out of their house on the week of Passover, because that is what a Messianic Rabbi has taught him to do, to be obedient to God, but leaves the Playboy magazines hidden in his closet.

When you write like this, you place keeping a commandment in the same state as breaking a commandment. One is able to keep a commandment while breaking another commandment. Point in case: One can keep the commandment to remove all the yeast out of ones home, and do so in faith. However, one can break a different commandment later in the evening by looking at porn. Looking at porn does not invalidate the kept commandment but it does put you in a state of being a law breaker. We could take this many places, but I know you understand grace, so grace covers the law breaker and helps the law breaker to repent in his area of sin. Grace does not condemn, it builds up and restores.

God's Law says to sacrifice an unblemished goat on Passover.

I am glad you are now seeing the Law of Moses as God's Law.

Now then, according to the Hebrew language, it could have been a sheep or a goat.

Let me ask you a question, and I would like you to answer it. Why do Jews keep the commandment to remove all the yeast from their homes for Passover, yet they don't sacrifice a lamb or goat?

I'm not asking you your opinion on the matter, I'm asking you to tell me what their reasoning is why they no longer sacrifice animals, even for Passover.

As a side note: A good study in this would lead us to a deeper understanding of the Lord's Supper.

 

[stovebolts]

Where is the line?

I'm sure we can agree on many of the points you made, and I think it's a worthy discussion. One we can take up tomorrow.

Grace and Peace.

 

[JLB]

I don't judge there heart.

I evaluate their actions.

Then why do you put taking all the yeast out of their house for Passover in comparison with looking at porn ?

So if a person who wants to say, clean the yeast out of their house on the week of Passover, because that is what a Messianic Rabbi has taught him to do, to be obedient to God, but leaves the Playboy magazines hidden in his closet.

When you write like this, you place keeping a commandment in the same state as breaking a commandment. One is able to keep a commandment while breaking another commandment. Point in case: One can keep the commandment to remove all the yeast out of ones home, and do so in faith. However, one can break a different commandment later in the evening by looking at porn. Looking at porn does not invalidate the kept commandment but it does put you in a state of being a law breaker. We could take this many places, but I know you understand grace, so grace covers the law breaker and helps the law breaker to repent in his area of sin. Grace does not condemn, it builds up and restores.

God's Law says to sacrifice an unblemished goat on Passover.

I am glad you are now seeing the Law of Moses as God's Law.

Now then, according to the Hebrew language, it could have been a sheep or a goat.

Let me ask you a question, and I would like you to answer it. Why do Jews keep the commandment to remove all the yeast from their homes for Passover, yet they don't sacrifice a lamb or goat?

I'm not asking you your opinion on the matter, I'm asking you to tell me what their reasoning is why they no longer sacrifice animals, even for Passover.

As a side note: A good study in this would lead us to a deeper understanding of the Lord's Supper.

"God's Law" says to sacrifice an unblemished lamb on Passover.

If I did that today, would I be obeying a Law of God or of man?

I would like you to answer my question.

You have made it a point to want your questions answered.

You told me you were waiting for my answer from the law about hating your enemies. Then when I showed where it was commanded to utterly destroy and show no mercy to their enemies you side stepped the question.

You made it a point to bring up the fact that your son made an evaluation about me hating Jews, when I asked you to have him evaluate the scripture where God commanded the children of Israel to utterly destroy their enemies and show them no mercy, if that was an act of love or hate?

You sidestepped and would not answer again.


Now a third time I ask for your honest input into the discussion, which requires that you answer this question.

"God's Law" says to sacrifice an unblemished lamb on Passover.

If I did that today, would I be obeying a Law of God or of man?

Rather than validate mans religion and those who reject Christ, why not tell them the truth?

That law has vanished away, it was fulfilled by Jesus Christ the Messiah.



JLB

 

[Ryan]

[MENTION=90220]JLB[/MENTION] to offer a sacrifice a outside of the Tabernacle or Temple would be a sin as per Deuteronomy 12:13-14. So I know you think some of us have some lambs getting fatted all up for next year's Passover, but that is simply not the case and I know of no body of believers that believe this as well. There could be, but that would be a fringe group just like the Westboro Baptist Church doesn't represent all Baptists know does it? :dunno As there is no Lamb to be slaughtered other then the food we eat, yes some of us do clean the leaven out of our home and make a fun game out of it with our children. Traditional Judaism has the leaven cleaned out with a feather, wooden spoon, candle and a white linen cloth. Interestingly this "tradition" just in itself points to Jesus just in the utensils used. Leaven represents sin, and if we understand this idea of removing sin from our home, we can think of Jesus's mindset in John 2:13-15

13 The Passover of the Jews was near, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. 14 And He found in the temple (his Father's house) those who were selling oxen and sheep and doves, and the money changers seated at their tables. 15 And He made a scourge of cords, and drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and the oxen; and He poured out the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables;

Jesus is getting the leaven out of his Father's house before the Feast of Passover. But you won't understand that if you don't know that Feast of which is not owned by man, the Jews or anybody else. God declared the Feasts are his days:

Leviticus 23:1-2 The Lord spoke again to Moses, saying, 2 “Speak to the sons of Israel and say to them, ‘The Lord’s appointed times which you shall proclaim as holy convocations—My appointed times are these:

Anyways, I don't think you hate Jews, I just see you as being overly paranoid and distrustful of anything related to Torah or a movement that declares they observe the Law of Moses. Don't know why that is, only you and God knows. The fact is, people are beginning to want more in their walk with the Lord, and are seeing things such as the Feasts enriching their lives. What is wrong with that? Nothing, praise the Lord for them choosing to do so. You make it sound like it is sinful to do so, but Paul makes it clear:

Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet.”

I will when I come to it explore the passage about God commanding the Israelites to drive and destroy the Hittites and such. First of all the wickedness of them had come to their fullness, but it was also to protect Israel. But we will get to that later.

 

[JLB]

@JLB to offer a sacrifice a outside of the Tabernacle or Temple would be a sin as per Deuteronomy 12:13-14. So I know you think some of us have some lambs getting fatted all up for next year's Passover, but that is simply not the case and I know of no body of believers that believe this as well. There could be, but that would be a fringe group just like the Westboro Baptist Church doesn't represent all Baptists know does it? :dunno As there is no Lamb to be slaughtered other then the food we eat, yes some of us do clean the leaven out of our home and make a fun game out of it with our children. Traditional Judaism has the leaven cleaned out with a feather, wooden spoon, candle and a white linen cloth. Interestingly this "tradition" just in itself points to Jesus just in the utensils used. Leaven represents sin, and if we understand this idea of removing sin from our home, we can think of Jesus's mindset in John 2:13-15

13 The Passover of the Jews was near, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. 14 And He found in the temple (his Father's house) those who were selling oxen and sheep and doves, and the money changers seated at their tables. 15 And He made a scourge of cords, and drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and the oxen; and He poured out the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables;

Jesus is getting the leaven out of his Father's house before the Feast of Passover. But you won't understand that if you don't know that Feast of which is not owned by man, the Jews or anybody else. God declared the Feasts are his days:

Leviticus 23:1-2 The Lord spoke again to Moses, saying, 2 “Speak to the sons of Israel and say to them, ‘The Lord’s appointed times which you shall proclaim as holy convocations—My appointed times are these:

Anyways, I don't think you hate Jews, I just see you as being overly paranoid and distrustful of anything related to Torah or a movement that declares they observe the Law of Moses. Don't know why that is, only you and God knows. The fact is, people are beginning to want more in their walk with the Lord, and are seeing things such as the Feasts enriching their lives. What is wrong with that? Nothing, praise the Lord for them choosing to do so. You make it sound like it is sinful to do so, but Paul makes it clear:

Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet.â€

I will when I come to it explore the passage about God commanding the Israelites to drive and destroy the Hittites and such. First of all the wickedness of them had come to their fullness, but it was also to protect Israel. But we will get to that later.

I was responding to this "perspective" from Stovebolts -

Moreso, it shows your lack of Torah. Why? Because God's word... God's Law says to remove ALL the yeast from your home. (Exodus 12:15 On the first day you shall remove leaven out of your houses ) and then in the same breath call this a man made rule?

He was convincing me again of my great lack of understanding of the Torah, and how could I declare God's Law, as a law of man.

My response was -

"God's Law" says to sacrifice an unblemished lamb on Passover.

If I did that today, would I be obeying a Law of God or of man?


The Point: The Law that says to sacrifice animals on specified feast days has become obsolete and vanished away, just as the laws that require the Jews to clean the yeast of their house has become obsolete and vanished away.

God no longer requires these Laws, as they have been fulfilled in Christ.

Those that reject Christ as Messiah still keep those Laws as they believe they are required to by God.

Some Christians who are already saved and cleansed by the Lamb of God are taught by Messianic Rabbis, that they must keep this feast and its requirements in order to be obedient to God.

How do you see it. What is your perspective.

Do you feel you need to do this to be obedient to God?


JLB

 

[stovebolts]

A person has grace to do so.

Paul teaches in Galatians that there is a line the you can cross.

If a person is already saved by faith through grace, and they begin to start keeping more and more Laws from the Law of Moses, because they are being taught that by Messianic Rabbis.

The person knows that he is saved by grace, but continues to do more and more because he feels compelled.

At what point does someone need to warn them that they are "turning away" from Christ, as Paul teaches.

Turning away means they were saved, but now they are turning away from Him.

Where is the line?

The line is drawn when one starts to think that they must do something in order to be saved, or when they get a big head and think they are better than others because they are so good and perfect. When they look down on others because of their righteousness while patting themselves and other elites on the back for how good they are, while condemning those around them who don't meet their standards which they derive from portions of scripture. The list can go on and on... but I'll stop here.

There is nothing wrong in keeping any of God's laws, but we must understand that there is no condemnation in Christ. If you try to live under the law, you'll always see yourself as falling short because the law wasn't designed to bring about salvation, rather it was designed to show us and teach us what sin is. There is nothing wrong with understanding what sin is and avoiding it and we should all strive to live holy lives. The other side of the law shows us how our sin is atoned for which now points to Christ Jesus.