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The 613 something or another

I did not say God's commandments were too hard. I said it is impossible for us. Please do not misrepresent my words as this is a violation of our ToS.

Ah... Good old semantics. Deut. 30:14 clearly says that we can do God's commandments. They are not impossible. What is impossible is man's interpretation of them.

Take a closer look at the verse you quoted

22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment:

It doesn't say that being angry in and of itself is wrong. It says "without cause". Is that impossible?

If it was possible to follow God's commandments to the fullest we would not need our savior, Jesus. As it is, it is impossible for us and so we do need a savior.

If it was impossible to follow God's commandments, then Jesus couldn't have done it. The fact that Jesus did obey every commandment shows that it can be done. If we allow the Holy Spirit to lead us to the same extent Jesus allowed the Spirit to lead him, then we, too, can follow the commandments.
The TOG
I don't think you're catching what I am saying. I am not saying it is impossible. I am saying that it is impossible for us. There is a very important distinction being made here. Following God's commandments is not only possible but it is easy. It is just impossible for us. We are corrupt and we fall short. This is why we are so much in need of a savior. When we start to think we can make it on our own, we begin to fall into Satan's trap of pride and are doomed. God will not allow us to be tempted beyond what we can bear. This is expressed in 1 Corinthians 10:
13 No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able,

I agree that God doesn't ask us to do the impossible.
Go ahead and try to be perfect. If you claim you have lived a perfect life, I would have to also suspect I am conversing with a liar. I don't mean that in a negative way. Just repeating the truth recorded in 1 John 1:
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

In humility we come to the Christ, Jesus, and put our failing at the foot of his cross. He has paid the atonement and freed us from our unrighteousness. It is in Christ that we have hope.

I would like to refer you to one of my favorite chapters in the Bible, Romans 7, where Paul wrestled with his own failings.
 
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Hi again JLB. I've been on Vacation for a week and I see this thread has a few pages added. Forgive me for not reading anything from my last post forward and I hope what I write hasn't already been covered.
If you are against something going into it, you will never find or see any value and it will remain forever hidden from you.

Im not against studying the scriptures, all the scriptures.

But reading commentary from those that are not filled with God's Spirit, and who reject Jesus as Messiah, is not something I will waste my time studying.
JLB, nobody is telling you to study the Sages let alone Jewish writings so if you feel it is a wasted time, then don't give it a second thought. However, I would remind you that the NT writers were fluid in this same commentary as it was part of their schooling. This is clearly seen through the writer of Hebrews where he speaks of Abraham's faith.
Hebrews 11:18 (NIV) Abraham reasoned that God could raise the dead, and figuratively speaking, he did receive Isaac back from death.

Where did the writer of Hebrews derive this from? Can you show me supporting scriptures that explicitly states the above?

Jesus said, "tear down this temple and I will rebuild it in 3 days"

19 Jesus answered and said to them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." 20 Then the Jews said, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?"

21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body.

Not a literal Temple that the Messiah will occupy, but His Body.


This is a good example of why you should steer clear of commentary by unsaved Jews.



JLB

It seems your assuming that what I wrote pointed to a literal brick and mortar temple. While many Jews today believe that a brick and mortar temple needs to be built before the Messiah comes, that is not what the commentary on the well eludes to.

My teen son was looking over my shoulder last Saturday and said, "Dad, that man hates the Jews doesn't he?" I replied, "No, he just misunderstands them".

With that, I'm not going to argue is the matter of Jewish thought, but I will discuss the content and substance. If you care to discuss specific commentary, then that's great. But I don't see any value in discussing the idea that reading Jewish commentary is bad. If you disagree, then it has been noted.
 
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JLB, nobody is telling you to study the Sages let alone Jewish writings so if you feel it is a wasted time, then don't give it a second thought.

Here is what I wrote in another thread -

The shadows and types and feasts are absolutely amazing.

The depths and richness of God's word is unfathomable.

The Hebrew Idioms and expressions, are also amazing and add a richness and depth to God's word that I am only scratching the surface of.


They have there fulfillment in Christ.

To be conformed to His image is our goal.

Seeking Him is our goal.

Spending time with Him, is our delight.

Walking with Him, is what should be our quest.

To walk with Him in righteousness, to Love Him, by obeying His Voice.

His Voice is where faith comes from.

Faith does not come from studying Jewish commentary.

Faith does not come from wearing special clothing.

Faith does not come from observing special days.

Faith does not come from eating or not eating certain foods.

Faith does not come from cleaning the yeast out of your house during the week of Passover.

Faith comes by hearing God speaking to you.

Faith pleases God.

Anything not of faith is sin.

But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin. Romans 14:23


My teen son was looking over my shoulder last Saturday and said, "Dad, that man hates the Jews doesn't he?" I replied, "No, he just misunderstands them".

With that, I'm not going to argue is the matter of Jewish thought, but I will discuss the content and substance. If you care to discuss specific commentary, then that's great. But I don't see any value in discussing the idea that reading Jewish commentary is bad. If you disagree, then it has been noted.
I love the Jewish people.

I despise the Religion of Judaism.

I love Catholic people.

I despise the Religion of Catholicism.

Catholicism is mixture of Christianity and paganism.

Judaism is a mixture of The Law of Moses and The traditions of men mixed in some Kabballah and some human nature and you have yourself a yoke of bondage.

Saul of Tarsus was well studied in Judaism -

13 For you have heard of my former conduct in Judaism, how I persecuted the church of God beyond measure and tried to destroy it. 14 And I advanced in Judaism beyond many of my contemporaries in my own nation, being more exceedingly zealous for the traditions of my fathers. Galatians 1:13-14

Those that were followers of this religion murdered the Lord Jesus.

This Religion rejects Jesus and the Messiah.

The Jewish people were promised the Land of Israel.

We should love them as with all people.

That does not mean we are blind to this Religion and its perversion of the truth.

Likewise we are not blind to Catholicism and its perversion of the truth.


John the baptist sure wasn't blind to it.

Jesus gave His life fighting that Religion.


Incidentally, the law that God gave Moses was not a yoke of bondage and an administration of death, the Religion of Judaism is what twisted the Law into a yoke of bondage and administration of death.

Rather, men through the influence of Satan, twisted the law into a yoke of Bondage called Judaism.

It's influence has infiltrated the ranks of the New Covenant under the guise of Messianic Judaism.

I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed. Galatians 1:6-9



JLB
 
I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed. Galatians 1:6-9


At what point are we in our heart and mind, turned away from Him to another Gospel.

How much of this Religion of Judaism should we be involved in and how far should we go.

At what point is considered by God as turning away from Him.

Where is the definitive line in the sand that we can recognize that warns us from turning away from Him to another Gospel.

Is it when we decide to shorten the 613 to 20 so we can keep them.

Is it when we decide to get circumcised?

Is it when we start keeping the feasts?

Is it when we start wearing clothing that is not mixed?

Is it when we only eat Kosher?

Is it when we start cleaning all the yeast out of our house for the Passover week.

Is it when we refuse to kindle a fire on Saturday?

Where is this line?


If we do cross the line whereby we are turning away from Him, who is going to warn us?

Is it one thing to study the Law to discover how we are to Love people and treat people.

It is far and away another to think that cleaning the yeast out of your house on Passover week has anything to do with you cleansing yourself through faith and repentance from sin through the blood of Jesus Christ.

Mixing together the religion of Judaism and Christianity in us is the very sin that violates the Law, yet we are going to search for every grain of natural leaven to make sure our natural house doesn't have any. :shocked!

You totally and completely misunderstand me.

19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20


JLB
 
I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed. Galatians 1:6-9



JLB

With all due respect, why do you assume that anyone who studies the Bible using Jewish commentary will fall away from the grace of Christ? Let me back up for a moment with a disclaimer that I specifically told [MENTION=11841]jasoncran[/MENTION]s before I sent him my Ramban commentary. I told him, "be careful and make sure you sift and sort through the eyes of Christ". I told him this because the wisdom and riches found within Jewish commentary can lead somebody toward Christ if they have the eyes of Christ. This is why I see Christ within the Jewish commentary.

As an FYI, I taught Exodus for just over a year at our church and I used Jewish commentary almost exclusively to teach the class. During our study, many people told me that it helped them to understand our NT even better and it gave depth to the words of Jesus as well as the books and letters within the NT. It also increased their faith.

It is at this point it is good to understand that we gentiles were never NEVER under the law of Moses. But if we want to better understand types and shadows, Jewish commentary adds richness and depth beyond compare.
 
You totally and completely misunderstand me.

19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20

JLB
If I understand you at all, the message you send is to steer away from any Jewish commentary and I think you misunderstand me.

At what point are we in our heart and mind, turned away from Him to another Gospel.

How much of this Religion of Judaism should we be involved in and how far should we go.

At what point is considered by God as turning away from Him.

Where is the definitive line in the sand that we can recognize that warns us from turning away from Him to another Gospel.

Is it when we decide to shorten the 613 to 20 so we can keep them.

Is it when we decide to get circumcised?

Is it when we start keeping the feasts?

Is it when we start wearing clothing that is not mixed?

Is it when we only eat Kosher?

Is it when we start cleaning all the yeast out of our house for the Passover week.

Is it when we refuse to kindle a fire on Saturday?

I don't think either doing or not doing any of the above has an effect on our salvation. You seem to think that anyone partaking in any of these actions has fallen to another gospel. I disagree. What we need to understand is that salvation is by grace through faith in Christ Jesus. When we understand this, then we don't have to worry about being fooled by another gospel.

Paul never told the Jews to stop being Jewish. He simply wanted them to see that Jesus was the Messiah and show that it's always been about Faith... even in the Torah, it was about faith. Moses even says to circumcise your heart, even though circumcision was "pre-Mosiac law" since it fell under the covenant YHVH had with Abraham and not the covenant at Mt. Sinai.
 
I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed. Galatians 1:6-9


At what point are we in our heart and mind, turned away from Him to another Gospel.

How much of this Religion of Judaism should we be involved in and how far should we go.

At what point is considered by God as turning away from Him.

Answer: When you start relying on the keeping of Mosaic commands for the purpose of justification.

Notice that I'm always careful to distinguish between 'justification' and 'salvation' in these kinds of discussions.

There's no debate possible whatsoever that justification only comes through having your sin guilt canceled through forgiveness, not the merit of righteous work. And that the way we secure that forgiveness is through faith in the blood that makes that forgiveness possible.

But in regard to salvation, there is, as you know, the requirement that faith find expression in certain obediences for your faith to be able to save you on the Day of Wrath. The question is, is 'keeping Sabbath', for example, one of those obediences just as we all agree 'do not murder' is one of those obediences? After many, many hours and hours of discussions with 'law keepers' I realized that this is the crux of the debate, not whether or not law keeping is what we have to do to be justified.

IOW, what obediences within the law of Moses constitute the expected and obligatory expression of the faith that justifies all by itself? Can you see the difference between arguing for justification by the law, and arguing for the expected and obligatory obediences of the law that justified people are to fulfill? I can. That's why I cut law keepers lots of slack now in this department. Their conscience is not ruled by my conscience in regard to what they think God expects justifying faith to look like in this life. And likewise, their conscience does not rule my conscience in regard to what I think God expects justifying faith in Christ to look like in practice.
 
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I don't think either doing or not doing any of the above has an effect on our salvation.

6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ.

What did Paul consider "turning away from Him" and perverting the Gospel?


You seem to think that anyone partaking in any of these actions has fallen to another gospel.

You assume that is what I think.

Let me ask you a question.

Where did these gentile Christians get the idea to start "keeping the Law of Moses", and be circumcised from?


What we need to understand is that salvation is by grace through faith in Christ Jesus. When we understand this, then we don't have to worry about being fooled by another gospel.

If a person has been taught to get all the yeast out of their house for the week of Passover, is that Grace?



Paul never told the Jews to stop being Jewish. He simply wanted them to see that Jesus was the Messiah and show that it's always been about Faith... even in the Torah, it was about faith. Moses even says to circumcise your heart, even though circumcision was "pre-Mosiac law" since it fell under the covenant YHVH had with Abraham and not the covenant at Mt. Sinai.

The Jews don't need to stop being Jewish. We can learn much from that culture through the Hebrew expressions and symbolism.

The flip side is, Gentiles don't need to be "taught to be Jewish". We are saved by Grace through faith. This has nothing to do with the Law of Moses.

Abraham was not a Jew.

It is the Abrahamic covenant we are grafted into, not the covenant of Sinai.


Again, you misunderstand me.


JLB
 
The Law is obsolete and has vanished away in the Light of The Son.

Do you have a Scripture verse to back that up?
The TOG

13 In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. Hebrews 8:13

This is a common mistake people make. Look at what you said.

The Law is obsolete and has vanished away in the Light of The Son.
In that He says, "A new covenant,"
People often get those two confused. It's probably from a nearly complete lack of teaching from the law or the Old Testament in general within the Christian church. The law and the covenant are not the same thing. The law is only part of the covenant. Think of it this way: A man has a contract with his employer. The contract says, among other things, what the man's duties are, what hours he works, what rights he has such as vacation time and how much he gets paid. Now imagine that the man's employer wants to give him a raise. Because his wages are fixed in the contract, a new contract is required before he can get a raise. So the man signs a new contract with his employer, with higher pay. Does that mean he's lost his job? Does it mean he has no more vacation time? Has he lost all his benefits? Is he working different hours at a different job? The answer to all of these questions is "no". Everything in the contract remains the same, except for the man's wages. All his duties and obligations, as well as all his rights and benefits, remain the same. Only the wages change. In other words, you can changes part of a contract, without nullifying the whole thing.

The covenant is a type of contract. It stipulates our obligations toward God, our privileges as His children, blessings we may receive for obedience and curses for disobedience. Paul tells us in Hebrews that, with the coming of the New Covenant, the priesthood has been changed. Instead of the Levitical priesthood, we now have a high priest according to the order of Melchizedek. He also says that the sacrifice that atones for sin has changed from being the blood of lambs, goats and bulls, which were offered again and again, to being the blood of Christ which was offered once. Then he says:
For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well. (Heb. 7:12 ESV)
To change the priesthood, the laws that stipulated who could be a priest had to be changed. Note that he says there was a change in the law. He doesn't say the law was abolished. The only part that was changed was the priesthood and sacrifices. There was no need to change the Sabbath or dietary rules so that Christ could be our high priest.

Please notice the context that is being portrayed here by Paul.

The context of what Paul writes is about Gentiles Christians who have been compelled by Judaizers to attain a more complete [perfect] righteousness.

... are you now being made perfect by the flesh.

Paul's context is NOT about warning Christians trying to attain salvation by the works of the law, but adding the Law to the Christian walk of the Spirit., and trying to attain perfection by the Law.

Actually, the context is salvation. All first century Jews agreed that the Scriptures allow for Gentiles to join God's covenant with Israel, but they differed on exactly how that could be accomplished. Some ("those of the circumcision") believed that they had to convert to Judaism and follow many man-made Pharisaic customs to be saved. Others (such as Paul) believed that all that was needed was faith in the God that had made the covenant and in His Messiah. That's what's being talked about here and in many other places in the New Testament. It's what was discussed in Acts 15 and in nearly every place where you see the word "circumcision" in the New Testament. It's not about whether we should do the things God commanded us to do. It's about whether we need to do those things, as well as a host of man-made commandments before we can be saved, or whether we can be saved by faith and then learn to walk in the commandments of God, without the added commandments of men.

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them." 11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for "the just shall live by faith." 12 Yet the law is not of faith, but "the man who does them shall live by them."

For as many are as of the law are under a curse.

Anyone who tries to do some of the law for whatever reason is under a curse.

as it is written -

"Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them."

I cannot even begin to count the times I've heard this before, but I've never been able to make sense of it. Not only does it contradict God's word, but it is self-contradictory as well.

Anyone who tries to do some of the law for whatever reason is under a curse.
Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.
On the one hand, you're saying that a person is cursed if he does what the law commands, but then you quote a verse that says he is cursed if he doesn't do what the law commands. Which is it? Are we cursed if we do the commandments, or if we don't do them?

Either it is being dead to the law or do all of the law.

Crucified to the law, or continue in all of the law.

I was unable to find the phrase "crucified to the law" in my Bible. If you could provide chapter and verse for that, I would appreciate it. The phrase "died to the law" does appear twice in the Bible, and I suspect that is where that concept comes from, so let's look at those two places.
Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ (Rom. 7:4 ESV)
That's not the whole verse, but many people just quote that part of it, without thinking about the context. From the middle of chapter 6 and into chapter 8 of Romans, Paul is talking about "the law". He uses that term in a number of ways and refers to a number of different laws, including the law of God, the law of sin and human civil law. Sometimes, if we read only one verse, it isn't clear which law he is talking about and we have to read the larger context to understand what he is saying. Rom. 7:4 is such a case. It's part of an analogy. Let's look at the whole analogy.
For a married woman is bound by law to her husband while he lives, but if her husband dies she is released from the law of marriage. Accordingly, she will be called an adulteress if she lives with another man while her husband is alive. But if her husband dies, she is free from that law, and if she marries another man she is not an adulteress. Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God. (Rom. 7:2-4)
These verses use the analogy of a married woman who gets re-married after her husband dies. Pop-quiz time... The woman was previously married to a man. Who does she marry after he dies...

  1. A horse
  2. A cat
  3. A wall
  4. Another man
The answer is obvious. She was married to a man and she marries another man. Now look at the rest of the verse:
Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another (Rom. 7:4 ESV)
The woman was married to a man and then married another man. We were "married" to a law. After we died to that law, who do we "marry"?

  1. Complete lawlessness
  2. Political correctness
  3. Whatever we want (If it feels good, do it)
  4. Another law
The answer is just as obvious as before. We were married to a law, and now we are married to another law. But that still doesn't say which law it is. Look at what he says in chapter 8.
For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. (Rom. 8:2 ESV)

It's the law of sin we have died to, not God's law. God's law is the one we "married" after we died to the law of sin.

The other place the phrase "died to the law" appears is in Galatians.
For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. (Gal. 2;19 ESV)
Here Paul says that the purpose of dying to the law is that he might live to God. Through the law, God reveals to us how He wants us to live. Does it make sense to die to how God wants us to live so we can live for God? It doesn't make sense to me. In the previous verse, Paul says:
yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified. (Gal. 2:16 ESV)
He's talking about trying to justify ourselves by doing the works of the law, not about keeping the law out of obedience and love for God. We can't save ourselves, no matter how perfectly we manage to keep the commandments. That doesn't mean we shouldn't keep them. Think of the traffic laws as an analogy. If I go to a foreign country, then keeping the traffic laws there perfectly will not make me a citizen of that country. That doesn't mean I can totally disregard the traffic laws. Keeping God's laws perfectly won't make us citizens of God's kingdom (i.e. saved). That doesn't mean we can ignore them.

23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

Did you notice what it says? It says we are no longer under a tutor. The tutor has served it's purpose. That can only apply if someone was actually under the tutor at some time. Someone who has graduated from high school can say that he doesn't need his first grade teacher any more. But someone who has never been to school can't say that. We all have to start in the first grade. A person who has lived all his life without any formal education can't deny his need to learn basic reading and writing skills, as well as the other things taught in the first grade. You can only say that you don't need those things any more after you have actually learned them and are proficient in using them. Until then, you need the teacher. Have you ever been "under the tutor" of the law? Are you so proficient in the things of the law that you don't need to learn anything from it any more? I know I can't say that of myself. The law still has much to teach me. Until I've learned all it has to teach me, I'm still "under a tutor". It has already brought me closer to Christ, but I expect it to bring me even closer in the future.

We have become a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree,which is the Lord. The Covenant with Abraham.

We are not grafted into Law of Moses and natural Israel.

The olive tree is Israel.
But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches.(Rom. 11:17-18 ESV)
Some branches were broken off the olive tree. That means that they were on the olive tree at one time. The branches are the Jews. Were they "on" Christ and broken off of him, or were they "on" and then broken off of Israel? We are grafted on to Israel. That means we are partakers of God's covenant with Israel. In fact, that's the only way of partaking of that covenant. If we are not grafted on to Israel, then we have no part in the covenant God made with Israel. That includes the blessings promised in that covenant. Christians often quote the verse that says "you shall be the head and not the tail". But that's part of the covenant. (It's also conditional upon keeping the commandments). If we're not part of that covenant, then we can't claim that blessing for ourselves. It's only for members of the covenant. But there's more. If we aren't grafted on to Israel, then we're not part of this covenant either.
Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah (Jer. 31:31 ESV)
God made the New Covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah. If you're not in one of those houses, then you're not part of the covenant. The only way of being part of any covenant with God is to be part of the people He made the covenant with. He made the covenant at Sinai with the Israelites. He made the New Covenant with the houses of Israel and Judah. He made another covenant with Abraham and his descendants. He made another covenant before that with Noah and all his descendants. If you're not a descendant of Abraham and aren't grafted onto Israel, then the only covenant you have is the one made with Noah, which applies to everybody. But we are grafted on to Israel and therefore we can claim the blessings and promises as our own.
The TOG
 
Does that mean he's lost his job?

How does relate to the discussion? The old contract was obsolete and is no longer in effect. It has vanished away because the new contract took it's place.


The Law was added until...

When the until happens, what was added is no longer needed, and what it was added to remains in effect.

It means the Law was temporary.

It means the Law was a part of something else that was greater.

The Seed has come, the Law is no longer.

The Laws of God that were "seen" in the law, which is what Abraham walked in.

Please list the Laws and precepts that Abraham walked in.


JLB
 
Because his wages are fixed in the contract, a new contract is required before he can get a raise. So the man signs a new contract with his employer, with higher pay. Does that mean he's lost his job? Does it mean he has no more vacation time? Has he lost all his benefits? Is he working different hours at a different job? The answer to all of these questions is "no". Everything in the contract remains the same, except for the man's wages. All his duties and obligations, as well as all his rights and benefits, remain the same. Only the wages change. In other words, you can changes part of a contract, without nullifying the whole thing.


When a new contract is written the old contract is no longer in effect, it is null and void. The new contract would have to state all the things that are changed as well as the things that are the same as before.
There are not two contracts. One is void, one is in effect.
Some things may stay the same but they are written into the new contract. What a mess in court if this was not the way contractual laws are stated.

Now a type of amendment can be added to the original contract stating the changes, such as amendment to the US constitution but I don't see that the Cross was an amendment to the old covenant.
 
I agree that God doesn't ask us to do the impossible. Go ahead and try to be perfect. If you claim you have lived a perfect life, I would have to also suspect I am conversing with a liar. I don't mean that in a negative way. Just repeating the truth recorded in 1 John 1: 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

I have never claimed any such thing. I know that I am not perfect, but I still strive to do what God wants.
Strive to enter through the narrow door. (Luke 13:24 ESV)

Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience. (Heb. 4:11 ESV)

But as for you, O man of God, flee these things. Pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, steadfastness, gentleness. (I Tim. 6:11 ESV)
I would like to refer you to one of my favorite chapters in the Bible, Romans 7, where Paul wrestled with his own failings.

That same chapter also says the the law is spiritual and holy and that the commandments are holy righteous and good. It also says that Paul serves the law of God with his mind.
The TOG
 
God made the New Covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah. If you're not in one of those houses, then you're not part of the covenant.

Did Judah and Israel come from Abraham?

My bible says -

2 And I will make My covenant between Me and you, and will multiply you exceedingly." 3 Then Abram fell on his face, and God talked with him, saying: 4 "As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, and you shall be a father of many nations. Genesis 17:2-4

and again -

7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, "In you all the nations shall be blessed." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham. Galatians 3:7-8

and again -

1 "Behold! My Servant whom I uphold, My Elect One in whom My soul delights! I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles. 2 He will not cry out, nor raise His voice, Nor cause His voice to be heard in the street. 3 A bruised reed He will not break, And smoking flax He will not quench; He will bring forth justice for truth. 4 He will not fail nor be discouraged, Till He has established justice in the earth; And the coastlands shall wait for His law." 5 Thus says God the Lord, Who created the heavens and stretched them out, Who spread forth the earth and that which comes from it, Who gives breath to the people on it, And spirit to those who walk on it: 6 "I, the Lord, have called You in righteousness, And will hold Your hand; I will keep You and give You as a covenant to the people, As a light to the Gentiles, 7 To open blind eyes, To bring out prisoners from the prison, Those who sit in darkness from the prison house. Isaiah 42:1-6




JLB
 
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Please list the Laws and precepts that Abraham walked in.

Sorry, but no. The last time I posted a list at your request, you did nothing but criticize me for posting what you yourself requested.
The TOG
 
6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ.

What did Paul consider "turning away from Him" and perverting the Gospel?

When one believes salvation depends on what they do... you can't earn your way into salvation. Salvation is by grace through faith in Christ. Nobody here is preaching any other gospel. that being said, if somebody wants to take part in the festivals in inrichen their faith, then who are we to tell them they are sinning?

Where did these gentile Christians get the idea to start "keeping the Law of Moses", and be circumcised from?

They got the idea because the Jews believed one had to be a Jew to be saved.... And Circumcision was a sign of that salvation. I believe a good student of Paul will have many passages that echo this.

That being said, I find it odd you call circumcision as part of the law of Moses when circumcision was part of the covenant with Abram.

We know that the "new covenant" spoken about in jer 31 is realized in Christ and the writer of Hebrew says this new covenant is better than the old covenant. How then is circumcision better under the law of moses and did it nulify the covenant with Abraham? In other words, did the covenant at Sinai nullify the Covenant with Abraham when circumcision was commanded?

If a person has been taught to get all the yeast out of their house for the week of Passover, is that Grace?

It can be taken as a sign of grace if you understand the why. Who am I to judge anyone who keeps the law anyway?

The Jews don't need to stop being Jewish. We can learn much from that culture through the Hebrew expressions and symbolism.

The flip side is, Gentiles don't need to be "taught to be Jewish". We are saved by Grace through faith. This has nothing to do with the Law of Moses.

Abraham was not a Jew.

It is the Abrahamic covenant we are grafted into, not the covenant of Sinai.


Again, you misunderstand me.

If I misunderstand you, then why do you keep repeating yourself and quoting Galatians? More importantly, why can't you find anything I've written about as a middle ground? Everything I write you seem to cherry pick what you disagree with and elaborate. How does that edify and build up the body of Christ?

Listen, Paul had the same problem in Rome. Do some homework and you'll see that what I say is true. The Jews as well as Jewish Christians were coming back to rome and the gentile church didn't think to highly of the Jews... Christian or not. Paul doesn't want a repeat of what happened in Galatia and he doesn't want the church divided either. He seeks the middle ground where the two groups can function as one body.

We can take away a lot from Romans if we look at it that way while learning from the church in Galatia.

I would kindly remind me, as you've reminded me earlier that circumcision was with Abraham, not Moses. So you see, you did the same thing I did earlier. Can I get some humility from you?
 
When one believes salvation depends on what they do... you can't earn your way into salvation. Salvation is by grace through faith in Christ. Nobody here is preaching any other gospel. that being said, if somebody wants to take part in the festivals in inrichen their faith, then who are we to tell them they are sinning?

That is not the context in which Paul makes this statement.

The were adding the law to the Gospel Message, "thinking" that it would make them complete.

Not saved. Complete.

The had been convinced they were lacking something that would make them complete.

This is the false mindset that Paul was fighting.

3 Yet not even Titus who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised. 4 And this occurred because of false brethren secretly brought in (who came in by stealth to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage), 5 to whom we did not yield submission even for an hour, that the truth of the gospel might continue with you. 6 But from those who seemed to be something--whatever they were, it makes no difference to me; God shows personal favoritism to no man--for those who seemed to be something added nothing to me. Galatians 2:3-6

Thinking that this is a salvation issue is what is blinding you from seeing the issue in what Paul writes.


12 for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision. 13 And the rest of the Jews also played the hypocrite with him, so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy. 14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews?

That is my point!
why do ministries compel Gentiles to live as Jews? A Gentile does not have to do one thing, not one thing that a Jew does.

No feasts.

No rituals.

No Sabbath.

No clothing law.

No food laws.

Yet we have ministries today who have dedicated all their time to try to convince Gentile Christians to be like Jews, IF THEY WANT TO OBEY GOD.

It all comes from the religion of Judaism.


JLB



 
That is my point!why do ministries compel Gentiles to live as Jews? A Gentile does not have to do one thing, not one thing that a Jew does.

No feasts.

No rituals.

No Sabbath.

No clothing law.

No food laws.

Yet we have ministries today who have dedicated all their time to try to convince Gentile Christians to be like Jews, IF THEY WANT TO OBEY GOD.

It all comes from the religion of Judaism.


Hi JLB, I understand what you are saying and I agree. But I have been doing some reading on the Messianic sites.

One of the compulsions to observe the feasts, etc. is because of what they believe about the Millennial Age, which is from the same OT scriptures that dispensational people quote. During this age all the old ways will return. The feasts, etc.
All the nations of the world will go up to worship the Lord three times a year, if they do not they will be punished. All the sacrifices will be in effect. So in that thinking why would one think that those things are not the Lord's will? If they understand what these things are about and do what they can now, they will be more prepared for the coming Age.
That is why we see more and more Zionists participating in the feasts, etc. Christians in Jerusalem are doing this. We are seeing it more and more. It has nothing to do with salvation in Christ.
However, compulsions to circumcise, food laws, etc. are obviously not necessary as Paul and Peter made very clear.

Paul did observe some of the feasts, that is scriptural. He purposely avoided Ephesus once, so he could get to Jerusalem for one of the feast. I've been reading that the very early church, those outside of Roman, celebrate the Passover on the same day as the Jews. Polycarp (a disciple of John, according to other early writers), Polycrates (and others). It was Roman that put a stop to it, especially under Constantine. That was one of the things the Roman church martyred Christians for. It's interesting that the church at Roman brought in so many Jewish things, then twisted them. No eating meat on Fridays, only fish (dietary law). Lent., etc.
I really didn't get the picture of that church until I started studying Judaism.
 
That is my point!why do ministries compel Gentiles to live as Jews? A Gentile does not have to do one thing, not one thing that a Jew does.

No feasts.

No rituals.

No Sabbath.

No clothing law.

No food laws.

Yet we have ministries today who have dedicated all their time to try to convince Gentile Christians to be like Jews, IF THEY WANT TO OBEY GOD.

It all comes from the religion of Judaism.


Hi JLB, I understand what you are saying and I agree. But I have been doing some reading on the Messianic sites.

One of the compulsions to observe the feasts, etc. is because of what they believe about the Millennial Age, which is from the same OT scriptures that dispensational people quote. During this age all the old ways will return. The feasts, etc.
All the nations of the world will go up to worship the Lord three times a year, if they do not they will be punished. All the sacrifices will be in effect. So in that thinking why would one think that those things are not the Lord's will? If they understand what these things are about and do what they can now, they will be more prepared for the coming Age.
That is why we see more and more Zionists participating in the feasts, etc. Christians in Jerusalem are doing this. We are seeing it more and more. It has nothing to do with salvation in Christ.
However, compulsions to circumcise, food laws, etc. are obviously not necessary as Paul and Peter made very clear.

Paul did observe some of the feasts, that is scriptural. He purposely avoided Ephesus once, so he could get to Jerusalem for one of the feast. I've been reading that the very early church, those outside of Roman, celebrate the Passover on the same day as the Jews. Polycarp (a disciple of John, according to other early writers), Polycrates (and others). It was Roman that put a stop to it, especially under Constantine. That was one of the things the Roman church martyred Christians for. It's interesting that the church at Roman brought in so many Jewish things, then twisted them. No eating meat on Fridays, only fish (dietary law). Lent., etc.
I really didn't get the picture of that church until I started studying Judaism.

If observing a feast day is all that Messianic Judaism was about, then that would be great.

Please go to the Council of Jerusalem website and look at what they teach.

http://jerusalemcouncil.org/articles/faqs/do-i-need-to-be-circumcised/

You must be Circumcised to be in Covenant.

Psalm 119 Ministries is about the same.


JLB
 
Please go to the Council of Jerusalem website and look at what they teach.

http://jerusalemcouncil.org/articles...e-circumcised/

You must be Circumcised to be in Covenant.

Psalm 119 Ministries is about the same.


I did this the last time you posted this link. I agree with you, that they are trying to enforce Judaism, not Messianic, in these ideas and statements.
Paul clearly says they are wrong.

The covenant is with the Seed, Jesus Christ. We as NT believers are in Christ, He already did these things for us. He never broke the Law of Moses, He fulfilled it. He gave us two commandments. Now whether one is circumcised or not does not make any difference in loving your neighbor. But should we deliberately, invite a Jew to dinner and service pork? That would not be acting in love to place him in a position of either being rude to you or breaking the Law. We would be creating a stumbling block for him and thus causing a less than conducive environment for witnessing about Jesus.
For a Messianic congregation to insist on circumcision and food laws is to place a stumbling block in front of other Christian brothers, through lack of acceptance of the Gospel as presented by Paul and Peter and James.
But frankly, I see some of the same things go on between denominations.
Example.. Several years ago, Lexy was invited by the Baptist pastor to attend his church. When she told him that she believed that the spiritual gifts were still for today. He responded with, "Oh." The conservation ended, the invite was off. No discussion about open speaking in tongues, not to be a stumbling block (which she would not do) or anything else. He made assumptions and just didn't want this lovely girl who loves Jesus, in his church.

I keep looking up and lifting up. This MJ movement is still young and I think just like the rest of the Church it does have wrinkles and spots that will get cleansed and ironed out. I see it as just another facet of the Church.
 
Now a type of amendment can be added to the original contract stating the changes, such as amendment to the US constitution but I don't see that the Cross was an amendment to the old covenant.

Actually, that's pretty close to what it was. For Jesus to become our high priest and for his blood to replace the various sacrifices, a change had to be made to the law regarding those things. The rest of the law wasn't changed. If it was, why did Paul and the other apostles not only continue to follow the very commandments people today say were done away with, but also encouraged Gentile converts to do the same?
And when the day of Pentecost (Feast of Weeks) was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place... And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. (Acts 2:1,5 KJV)
When they desired him to tarry longer time with them, he consented not; but bade them farewell, saying, I must by all means keep this feast that cometh in Jerusalem (Acts 18:20-21 KJV)
Let us therefore celebrate the festival (of Unleavened Bread), not with the old leaven, the leaven of malice and evil, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. (I Cor. 5:8 ESV)
The reason there were so many people in Jerusalem was because the Feast of Weeks (aka Pentecost) was one of the three annual pilgrimage feasts. The apostles were also there because of the feast. In Acts 18, Paul says he can't stay because he must go to the festival in Jerusalem. It doesn't say what festival it was, but it was presumably one of the pilgrimage festivals. The Corinthian church consisted primarily of converted Gentiles.Paul tells them to keep the Feast of Unleavened Bread. Although not all the annual festivals are mentioned, we may assume that they kept the others as well.
The TOG
 
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