The 7th-Day Sabbath?

[chessman]

Of the thousands which will End their life by the simple NO LORD I,I,I,I will not keep your 7th. Day Sabbath? NO one will be saved. Rev. 12:17
It is just that simple... 'If you love Me, keep my commandments'.

--Elijah

Revelation 12:17 (ESV)
17 Then the dragon [Satan] became furious with the woman [Israel] and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

Just some of the problems with your condemnation (killing) of other Christians by your teaching here with your referencing Rev 12:17 are:

1) Rev 12 simply describes Satan's war on Israel AND those of us that hold to the testimony of JESUS. A war that is won by Jesus, not Satan by the way. It says nothing of killing, only war.

2) We have the armor of God's Word to fight this war. There is no "simple" "ending of our life" taught in Rev 12:17. Else, why would Satan be fighting against us if it were simply about a day?

You seem to be a person concerned about other Christians. Doesn't it worry you that you might be teaching something that's not true?

Clearly the Pharisees sabbathed on Saturday, true. Yet we have Jesus teaching them about it in Mark 3:
3 Again he entered the synagogue, and a man was there with a withered hand. 2 And they watched Jesus, to see whether he would heal him on the Sabbath, so that they might accuse him. 3 And he said to the man with the withered hand, “Come here.†4 And he said to them, “Is it lawful on the Sabbath to do good or to do harm, to save life or to kill?†But they were silent. 5 And he looked around at them with anger, grieved at their hardness of heart, and said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.†He stretched it out, and his hand was restored. 6 The Pharisees went out and immediately held counsel with the Herodians against him, how to destroy him.

So Jesus (Lord of the sabbath) was concerned more about their hardness of their heart than any day's duties. I think that's the Biblical teaching.

 

[George Muller]

'If you love Me, keep my commandments'.

Thanks to the Love and work of Christ, we who love are in fact KEEPING the commandments.
Ga 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Joh 15:9 ¶ As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.
12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

This is not hard, but very simple

2Co 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

 

[JCitoL]

.....

When I read further and God’s Word first discusses the 7th Day (Sabbath) it says:

2 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts. 2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.
​

.....

But I then read on studying more about the significance of the Sabbath, the very first use of the word “Sabbath” is in Ex 16 and God’s Word there says:

Exodus 16:29 See, the Lord has given you the sabbath; therefore He gives you bread for two days on the sixth day. Remain every man in his place; let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.”
​

The literal point here (again not figuratively speaking) as I read is that the Sabbath was given by the Lord to His people, not the other way around. I don’t see any contingency of God via people’s actions, introduced here. I also read on and find out why He gave the Sabbath to His people. For what purpose that is. What is the Sabbath FOR (the therefore in Deut 5 and Ex 31)

Exodus 31: 14 Therefore you are to observe the sabbath, for it is holy to you. … 17 It [Sabbath] is a sign between Me and the sons of Israel forever; for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, but on the seventh day He ceased from labor, and was refreshed.

Deuteronomy 5:15 You shall remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God brought you out of there by a mighty hand and by an outstretched arm; therefore the Lord your God commanded you to observe the sabbath day.
​

So God’s Word tells me once again, that it’s God’s “mighty hand” and “outstretched hand” that brought His people out of Egypt [sin], not the other way around. His Sabbath day command was “therefore” a sign (yes a “command” but also a sign) that literally showed His people just how powerful, effective and loving toward His people He could be (plagues, parting of the Red Sea, manna, etc.). But my point here is that again, I don’t see any contingency in God relative to the Sabbath observance as your statement indicates by “depending on/according to the relevant factors”. If anything, it’s plain from Scripture that the Sabbath was for man’s benefit, not God’s “awakening” from ”a state of half-sleep”.

Ah, yes, someone might say but that’s all Old Testament. So what/how does Jesus and the New Covenant change any contingency of God relative to the Sabbath or “awaken” God from his “half-sleep”.

So I read on into the New Testament (covenant) what God’s Word says about Sabbath. Its first mention is in Matt 12:

Matthew 12:1 At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath, and His disciples became hungry and began to pick the heads of grain and eat. 2 But when the Pharisees saw this, they said to Him, “Look, Your disciples do what is not lawful to do on a Sabbath.”
​

So here we see straight away, in a very literal way, that Jesus and His disciples did what was “un-lawful” in the minds of the Pharisees. To my way of thinking, that’s a very real indication that something’s up here with regard to a New Sabbath for a New Covenant. But, that’s not my point here. It’s more about finding where in Scripture that it teaches this “awakening” of God and God “depending on relative factors” that you mention about the 7th Day Sabbath.
But I read on and Jesus himself says:

8 “For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”
​

Again, that doesn’t teach there’s a dependence element to the Sabbath or that God is awakened by any action of man via Sabbath observance (day 1 or day 7).

Then Mark’s Gospel records Jesus making this point even clearer:

Mark 2:27 Jesus said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.
​

Then John records why it is we should take Jesus’ words about the Sabbath literally:

John 5:18 [ Jesus’ Equality with God ] For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.
​

Then I read Paul the apostle’s point about the Sabbath:

Colossians 2:16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day—
​

Then I read in Hebrews all about the entire purpose, history and meaning of the Sabbath in Hebrews (the whole book really) but I’ll just point to:

Hebrews 4: 8 For if Joshua [old law/commandment/covenant] had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that [Jesus]. 9 So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God….

11 Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience. 12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.
​

So my question for you is where do you get this idea of

because He is in a state of half-sleep, (and) then He can be more awake for some people, while less awake for others - He can turn out awake to a different extent for every human depending on/according to the relevant factors

when God’s Word says all that I have posted above and “there is no creature hidden from His sight”?

It just doesn’t indicate that God is ever in a “state of half-sleep” or “awake for some”.

Can you provide some Scripture that supports your statement?

God sees, hears and knows all even when He is in state of somnolence, and He remains omnipotent even then, but His omnipotence to save all humans/souls of the universe remains more or less not completely expressed/advanced, on the one hand He is omnipotent and should not get tired, but on the other hand He had no enough witnesses in the beginning who to acknowledge and testify His position against the appearance of the "darkness" as a truth, that is why He fell into a state of millennial somnolence from the seventh day on, because such is the nature/system in the universe that there may be about 5-6 possible millennia of a reign of the "darkness", so while God is in state of somnolence then He actually is able and all-powerful to do everything except to provide absolutely: full salvation and abundant life to every human of the universe, because His somnolence more or less does not allow Him to take care of all humans completely and permanently, that is why there is a need of intercession("prayer") and concern("fasting") for the salvation of all humans, because exactly so He can be woken so as to be able to save them better and even completely and permanently

Mark 9:29 "This kind can come forth by nothing, but by prayer(i.e. but by good intercession) and fasting(i.e. and concern for the salvation of the humankind in the true God)."

not that God hangs on any human, but for the duration of His somnolence there is more or less a need there be good/righteous people who are concerned for the perishing/perished/endangered humans and who work for their salvation in the true God, otherwise it is possible some people not to be enough saved opportunely/seasonably during His somnolence, so exactly the "prayer" and the "fasting" are the bi-aspect "bread" in Exodus 16:29, then the "sabbath" is the time for faith in the true Lord God during which the spiritual servants/workers/followers must keep and restore the: peace, purity, sanctity, good, virtue, benediction, and welfare of all humans, because it is a duty of the spiritual servants/workers/followers, that is why it is written that the "sabbath" must be kept

Exodus 20:8-11 "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy(i.e. always bear in mind the precarious situation while God the Father (still) is in state of millennial somnolence in order to keep His creature/creation Holy). Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work(i.e. in principle you are absolutely free to do everything whereby you do not cause (a) hurt/harm to any human): But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God(i.e. but while God the Father still snoozes): in it thou shalt not do any work(i.e. do not omit to keep/restore the: peace, purity, sanctity, good, virtue, benediction, and welfare of all humans, which things God from the beginning laid to be for all of them), thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle(i.e. nor in your work(-s)), nor thy stranger that is within thy gates(i.e. that are in the faith): For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day(i.e. and has fallen into a state of millennial somnolence/drowse from the seventh day on): wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day(viz. the time during which He will be in somnolence), and hallowed it(viz. with a view the spiritual servants to sanctify the Creature/Creation while He snoozes)."

here is how from that biblical passage(Exodus 20:8-11) it's visible that God still was in a state of somnolence at the time of Moses i.e. thousands of years after the seventh day, otherwise there would hardly be such a Commandment written by God Himself by His Own Finger, and here is why the same Commandment exists also in the New Testament:

1 Timothy 2:1-10 "I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks(i.e. blessings), be made for all men(i.e. for all humans); For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty(i.e. in all goodness and earnestness). For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men(i.e. all humans/souls) to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth(i.e. and to become good/righteous). For there is one God, and one mediator(also: and one Lord) between God and men, the man(i.e. the ensouled being) Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not; ) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity. I will therefore that men(i.e. that the male believers) pray every where, lifting up holy hands(i.e. entirely showing/manifesting love/goodness), without wrath(i.e. without hostility/aggression) and doubting(i.e. and dramatization/stir/intrigues/strife). In like manner also, that women(i.e. that female believers) adorn themselves in modest apparel(i.e. in humility), with shamefacedness(i.e. with meekness) and sobriety(i.e. and sedation/sanity); not with broided hair(i.e. not with pride), or gold(i.e. or vainglory), or pearls(i.e. or wisdom), or costly array(i.e. or elevation); But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.",

1 Timothy 4:1-11 "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith(i.e. some may deviate from the right faith toward wrong), giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines(i.e. creeds) of devils; Speaking(i.e. preaching/testifying/prophesying) lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron(i.e. with strong satanic spirituality); Forbidding to marry(i.e. disconcerting and forbidding the sex life), and commanding to abstain from meats(i.e. from natural consumptions), which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving(i.e. which the true God has made/given to be used for good purposes) of them which believe and know the truth(i.e. of those who believe right(-ly) as well as of those who do not do spiritual/religious iniquity). For every creature(i.e. for each creation) of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving(i.e. if it is used for good purposes): For it is sanctified by the word of God(i.e. of the God's work) and prayer(i.e. and by the prayers of (the) true Saints). If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith(i.e. of right faith) and of good doctrine(i.e. and of the good creed), whereunto thou hast attained. But refuse profane and old wives' fables(i.e. but avoid the traditions of defiling and misleading creeds), and exercise thyself rather unto godliness(or: unto love/goodness). For bodily(or: for overweening/self-interested) exercise profiteth little: but godliness(or: love/goodness) is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come. This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe(i.e. that do not commit spiritual/religious iniquity). These things command and teach.",

John 5:16-17 "And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day. But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work."

that is why God will wake up completely and permanently until the number of the true Saints be completed/filled

Daniel 7:9 "I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit(i.e. i saw that the true God will wake up completely and permanently when the number of the true Saints is already completed/filled)"

Blessings

 

[smaller]

Well, I see at least a couple of people are moved to the more interesting matters of the Sabbath in this thread.

There is much much more to be seen, said and played out into our present environment.

The Sabbath is assuredly a matter of judgments as well. It has not yet been inserted into the equations that the Sabbath is COMMAND. There is no question about that. All of these types of questions revolve around the 'nature' of Gods Laws.

We know from Paul the Law is SPIRITUAL. It is pointless to see any Law apart from the fact of it being spiritual and that it also will attract judgment.

A portion of the present exercise in this life is not just about MAN, but about the judgment of these wicked spirits and their works:

Ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

The Law of God, ANY LAW that has proceed from Him, has a built in resistance factor by the parties above. And it is so for THEIR JUDGMENT.

Does the Sabbath Law play into that judgment? Undoubtedly. Those wicked spirits have given MAN NO REST.

Therefore the true and final SABBATH REST in the Spiritual sense remains upon the event horizon. But many things will come to pass before we actually see THAT FINAL REST.

The fact that some are awakening to the realities of this matter is already being shown into our present environment. The wicked powers are stirred to resist because SOME SEE and God Himself places these sights in us and it is in fact we ourselves who are carrying the wicked parties to various Judgments.

We do in fact come forth to God, each of us, for our personal beheading from the worker(s) of evil within, pleading to our Father to arise in victory and allow us to walk in Him, overcoming, with whom under our own two feet? Yeah, Romans 16:20. And He then comes to fight our enemies (unseen.)

We put the torture upon them by doing good works, which they hate and can not tolerate.

All of these matters will transpire prior to the true Spiritual Sabbath.

Saturday as a day of the week? Perhaps if a person could even find enough believers to gather in truth, rather than as an exercise of death to other believers. The Sabbath when 'celebrated' as an exercise of being a dispensary of death to other believers who do not 'do like we do' is just another exercise in showing the realities of internal evil defilements and will be part of the judgments of the wicked, just as any such practice will bring.

The Spiritual Rest will not come until all the enemies are destroyed.

No man of Spiritual war rests while there are ENEMIES.

God is showing these realities into our system in a constant flood, right now as we speak. You think it a coincidence that the 'war on terror' is against random unknown individual terrorists? Uh, no. That is a SPIRITUAL AROUSAL and showing of Spiritual Principle.

We do not see the real enemies that keep us from our own rest until we see the nameless faceless enemy stranger to God 'within.'

and THAT is when the real battles begin and things heat up considerably.

Don't forget to cinch up the Armor. You'll need it, personally.

s

 

[chessman]

JC, I appreciate your time/effort you put into responding to my question. I asked where you get Scriptural support to claim God’s Sabbath is described in the Bible as Him being in a “state of half-sleep†and “more awake for some people, while less awake for others†with respect to His salvation work in this age (2013).

Originally Posted by JCitoL because He is in a state of half-sleep, (and) then He can be more awake for some people, while less awake for others - He can turn out awake to a different extent for every human depending on/according to the relevant factors

So I’ll be discussing below only your response/answer to that particular question from your most resent post. Hopefully my response does not come across rude, as it’s not intended to be rude. Only a further disagreement with your idea that God is currently “asleep†or “half-asleep†with respect to anything other than His works of creation (Earth, land/sea, plants, animals, man).
You say

God sees, hears and knows all even when He is in state of somnolence, and He remains omnipotent even then, but His omnipotence to save all humans/souls of the universe remains more or less not completely expressed/advanced,

Where do you get any Scriptural support for the “but His omnipotence to save all humans/souls of the universe remains more or less not completely expressed/advanced†is the root of my original question. The statement above is just a statement, so what Scriptures do you use in your post to provide Biblical evidence for it or the original statement you made similar to it? You reference six different passages:
1. WRT Mark 9 You say

because exactly so He can be woken so as to be able to save them better and even completely and permanently

and

Mark 9:29 "This kind can come forth by nothing, but by prayer(i.e. but by good intercession) and fasting(i.e. and concern for the salvation of the humankind in the true God)."

Yet the actual passage is about Jesus removing an un-clean spirit from a boy and in this verse where it says “And he said to them, “This kind cannot be driven out by anything but prayer.†(Mark 9:29 ESV)

The text when it refers to “this kind†it is refereeing to demons, not people. Clearly this is the case since the very verse preceding verse 29 has the disciples asking Jesus

“And when he had entered the house, his disciples asked him privately, “Why could we not cast it out?†And he said to them, “This kind cannot be driven out by anything but prayer.â€(Mark 9:28-29 ESV)
​

The “it†and the “this kind†are the same object in the Greek. Clearly that was a demon. And clearly Jesus is teaching the disciples that THEY can only drive out demons via prayer and/or fasting. But just as clearly, Jesus was not in a state of “half-sleep†when He drove out this demon.

25 And when Jesus saw that a crowd came running together, he rebuked the unclean spirit, saying to it, “You mute and deaf spirit, I command you, come out of him and never enter him again.†And after crying out and convulsing him terribly, it came out, and the boy was like a corpse, so that most of them said, “He is dead.†But Jesus took him by the hand and lifted him up, and he arose. (Mark 9:25-27 ESV)
​

Therefore, this passage actually cannot be used to support your position that God is in a “half-sleepâ€. It actually demonstrates just how active and involved God (Jesus in this case) is in the world. He (Jesus) was not half asleep for this boy, that’s for sure, when He took him by the hand and lifted him up.

Yet you say

for the duration of His somnolence there is more or less a need there be good/righteous people who are concerned for the perishing/perished/endangered humans and who work for their salvation in the true God

Are you saying that there was a “need†for these disciples to “work for†the “salvation†of this boy taught by Mark 9? That’s not how I read it. Jesus drove the demon out actively of His own power and might. Not the disciples here.

2. You say

Exodus 20:8-11 "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy(i.e. always bear in mind the precarious situation while God the Father (still) is in state of millennial somnolence in order to keep His creature/creation Holy).

and

But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God(i.e. but while God the Father still snoozes)

Where does this passage teach God is in “somnolence†or “snoozing†with respect to salvation? My previous post dealt with the meaning of Sabbath and Biblically showed it was/is God’s rest from creation (not somnolence with respect to salvation or snoozing from anything other than creating Heaven/Earth, plants, animals, man). I’m looking for your justification in imparting God’s creation rest to His salvific rest. I don’t see any support for your notion in Mark 9 or Ex 20.

For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day(i.e. and has fallen into a state of millennial somnolence/drowse from the seventh day on)

If you want to apply “somnolence/drowse†to God’s work of creation, fine. Excellent. I find that supported Scripturally. However, what justifies applying this to His work of salvation? I don’t see any to date.

3. 1 Timothy 2 and 4: We could discuss much of what you say here. But as far as providing any evidence that God is in “half-asleep†at this time, I don’t see any here.

4. John 5: 17 But Jesus answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I am working.†This passage actually seem to teach that God is still working (salvifically). So I’m surprised that you would mention it as evidence that God is “half-asleepâ€.

5.

Daniel 7:9 "I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit(i.e. i saw that the true God will wake up completely and permanently when the number of the true Saints is already completed/filled)"

You seem to understand that this passage

In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon, Daniel saw a dream and visions of his head as he lay in his bed. Then he wrote down the dream and told the sum of the matter. (Daniel 7:1 ESV)…
9 “As I looked,
thrones were placed,
and the Ancient of Days took his seat;
his clothing was white as snow,
and the hair of his head like pure wool;
his throne was fiery flames;
its wheels were burning fire.
A stream of fire issued
and came out from before him;
a thousand thousands served him,
and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him;
the court sat in judgment,
and the books were opened.(Daniel 7:9-10 ESV)

Therefore, this passage depicts Jesus sitting in judgment of Satan. Nothing here teaches God is currently in a state of “half-sleepâ€.

Are there any other Scriptures that you feel teach that God is in a “half-sleep†relative to His salvation work at this time? Maybe you could reference and explain the top two or three passages that are mostly/clearly teaching this idea. I don’t see it in any of the ones you posted above.

 

[JCitoL]

JC, I appreciate your time/effort you put into responding to my question. I asked where you get Scriptural support to claim God’s Sabbath is described in the Bible as Him being in a “state of half-sleep” and “more awake for some people, while less awake for others” with respect to His salvation work in this age (2013).

So I’ll be discussing below only your response/answer to that particular question from your most resent post. Hopefully my response does not come across rude, as it’s not intended to be rude. Only a further disagreement with your idea that God is currently “asleep” or “half-asleep” with respect to anything other than His works of creation (Earth, land/sea, plants, animals, man).
You say
Where do you get any Scriptural support for the “but His omnipotence to save all humans/souls of the universe remains more or less not completely expressed/advanced” is the root of my original question. The statement above is just a statement, so what Scriptures do you use in your post to provide Biblical evidence for it or the original statement you made similar to it? You reference six different passages:
1. WRT Mark 9 You say and

Mark 9:29 "This kind can come forth by nothing, but by prayer(i.e. but by good intercession) and fasting(i.e. and concern for the salvation of the humankind in the true God)."

Yet the actual passage is about Jesus removing an un-clean spirit from a boy and in this verse where it says “And he said to them, “This kind cannot be driven out by anything but prayer.” (Mark 9:29 ESV)

The text when it refers to “this kind” it is refereeing to demons, not people. Clearly this is the case since the very verse preceding verse 29 has the disciples asking Jesus

“And when he had entered the house, his disciples asked him privately, “Why could we not cast it out?” And he said to them, “This kind cannot be driven out by anything but prayer.”(Mark 9:28-29 ESV)
​

The “it” and the “this kind” are the same object in the Greek. Clearly that was a demon. And clearly Jesus is teaching the disciples that THEY can only drive out demons via prayer and/or fasting. But just as clearly, Jesus was not in a state of “half-sleep” when He drove out this demon.

25 And when Jesus saw that a crowd came running together, he rebuked the unclean spirit, saying to it, “You mute and deaf spirit, I command you, come out of him and never enter him again.” And after crying out and convulsing him terribly, it came out, and the boy was like a corpse, so that most of them said, “He is dead.” But Jesus took him by the hand and lifted him up, and he arose. (Mark 9:25-27 ESV)
​

Therefore, this passage actually cannot be used to support your position that God is in a “half-sleep”. It actually demonstrates just how active and involved God (Jesus in this case) is in the world. He (Jesus) was not half asleep for this boy, that’s for sure, when He took him by the hand and lifted him up.

Yet you say

for the duration of His somnolence there is more or less a need there be good/righteous people who are concerned for the perishing/perished/endangered humans and who work for their salvation in the true God

Are you saying that there was a “need” for these disciples to “work for” the “salvation” of this boy taught by Mark 9? That’s not how I read it. Jesus drove the demon out actively of His own power and might. Not the disciples here.

2. You say

Exodus 20:8-11 "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy(i.e. always bear in mind the precarious situation while God the Father (still) is in state of millennial somnolence in order to keep His creature/creation Holy).

and

But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God(i.e. but while God the Father still snoozes)

Where does this passage teach God is in “somnolence” or “snoozing” with respect to salvation? My previous post dealt with the meaning of Sabbath and Biblically showed it was/is God’s rest from creation (not somnolence with respect to salvation or snoozing from anything other than creating Heaven/Earth, plants, animals, man). I’m looking for your justification in imparting God’s creation rest to His salvific rest. I don’t see any support for your notion in Mark 9 or Ex 20.

For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day(i.e. and has fallen into a state of millennial somnolence/drowse from the seventh day on)

If you want to apply “somnolence/drowse” to God’s work of creation, fine. Excellent. I find that supported Scripturally. However, what justifies applying this to His work of salvation? I don’t see any to date.

3. 1 Timothy 2 and 4: We could discuss much of what you say here. But as far as providing any evidence that God is in “half-asleep” at this time, I don’t see any here.

4. John 5: 17 But Jesus answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I am working.” This passage actually seem to teach that God is still working (salvifically). So I’m surprised that you would mention it as evidence that God is “half-asleep”.

5.

Daniel 7:9 "I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit(i.e. i saw that the true God will wake up completely and permanently when the number of the true Saints is already completed/filled)"

You seem to understand that this passage

In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon, Daniel saw a dream and visions of his head as he lay in his bed. Then he wrote down the dream and told the sum of the matter. (Daniel 7:1 ESV)…
9 “As I looked,
thrones were placed,
and the Ancient of Days took his seat;
his clothing was white as snow,
and the hair of his head like pure wool;
his throne was fiery flames;
its wheels were burning fire.
A stream of fire issued
and came out from before him;
a thousand thousands served him,
and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him;
the court sat in judgment,
and the books were opened.(Daniel 7:9-10 ESV)

Therefore, this passage depicts Jesus sitting in judgment of Satan. Nothing here teaches God is currently in a state of “half-sleep”.

Are there any other Scriptures that you feel teach that God is in a “half-sleep” relative to His salvation work at this time? Maybe you could reference and explain the top two or three passages that are mostly/clearly teaching this idea. I don’t see it in any of the ones you posted above.

these your contradictions look like a prepense unfounded doubling and trampling (against) the truth

Daniel 8:12 "it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered."

not that (by) saying this we judge you or any other human, neither we aim to insult you or whoever person, but the truth of God cannot be understood only by reading of the Bible and whatever other books, because there is a need of right faith in the true God Father and the true Lord Jesus Christ so as to be possible for the believer to understand the true Word of God

now regarding your questions, who a good parent would forsake its children to die in a fire in their house when it is there and awake seeing that its children need help?!, of course that no one of the good parents would not miss/omit to take care of its children in such circumstances, then how much more the true God Father would save all His children if He was/is absolutely waking especially after all human beings are His children?!, because He is the Creator of every human at least through the biological processes of embryo growth in the womb of its mother, for the man and the woman can only make a copulation, but all biological processes from that of the conception to all other biological cellular processes are operated by God - even the self-acting contractions of the uterus of the woman in childbirth, it is just impossible there be something by nothing, just see how even the firstborn and only begotten Son of God - Jesus Christ was helpless when He was captured and killed on the cross, and this happened because God the Father was in a deeper state of somnolence then, the same happened with judas isckariot, only with this difference that he turned out nefarious though he was righteous in principle, but judas turned out affected and possessed by satan because of a deeper state of the somnolence of God the Father, while such a thing did not happen to the other disciples of Jesus, how some people suffered more than others till now?!, this happened exactly because God the Father was in a deeper state of somnolence to them, not that it is His fault for that, but He was not able to wake enough, otherwise He would have been guilty if He was absolutely waking when the sufferers suffered till now, but He is guiltless, otherwise He would not have been the God of the universe, so not only that Jesus Christ was able to save many humans moreover He still is, but all the true Saints were able to do this and they still are, but you can see how there were till now many people to whom there was no enough salvation because they suffered - it was very obvious, and this was because God the Father was in a state of somnolence till now, otherwise if He was absolutely able to save the perished then He would have been some monster when He did not save them, so the purpose is not to argue, but to work for the salvation of all people - this is written in the Bible, independently of whether some people are good or evil, believers or disbelievers, the Will and the Commandment of God the Father is to be provided full salvation and abundant life for all humans till the end of the eternity, because if you have children then wouldn't you try to do everything good for everyone of them?!, then how much more God the Father wants to be done everything the best for all humans?!, because to us there may be many impossible things, but to Him everything is possible, we may hate someone of the other humans, but He always loves everyone of the people

John 2:17 "God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world(i.e. the humankind); but that the world(i.e. the humankind) through him might be saved.",

John 12:50 "I know that his commandment is life everlasting(i.e. to be provided abundant and everlasting life to all humans):",

Matthew 18:10-14 "Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones(i.e. anyone of the humans); for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven. For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray. Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones(i.e. that anyone of the humans) should perish.",

Luke 9:55-56 "the Son of man is not come(i.e. does never come) to destroy men's lives, but to(i.e. but He always comes (in order) to) save them.",

1 Timothy 2:1-10 "I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks(i.e. blessings), be made for all men(i.e. for all humans); For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty(i.e. in all goodness and earnestness). For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men(i.e. all humans/souls) to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth(i.e. and to become good/righteous). For there is one God, and one mediator(also: and one Lord) between God and men, the man(i.e. the ensouled being) Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not; ) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity. I will therefore that men(i.e. that the male believers) pray every where, lifting up holy hands(i.e. entirely showing/manifesting love/goodness), without wrath(i.e. without hostility/aggression) and doubting(i.e. and dramatization/stir/intrigues/strife). In like manner also, that women(i.e. that female believers) adorn themselves in modest apparel(i.e. in humility), with shamefacedness(i.e. with meekness) and sobriety(i.e. and sedation/sanity); not with broided hair(i.e. not with pride), or gold(i.e. or vainglory), or pearls(i.e. or wisdom), or costly array(i.e. or elevation); But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works."

Blessings

 

[Joe Domingo]

Just to be clear I love the sinner and hate the Sin. Been reading all of these topics - fascinating conversations! Keep up the good work.

Ok I'm out again:shocked!

 

[chessman]

these your contradictions look like a prepense unfounded doubling and trampling (against) the truth

I just noticed your profile indicates you are NOT Christian. That being the case, within this Christian Apologetics and Theology Section, it would seem unproductive to discuss matters of Scripture with you further. Maybe that’s why you cannot seem to answer my question Scripturally; of where exactly it is that God’s Word teaches that God is in a state of somnolence or half-sleep relative to salvation.

Without Scripture as our common basis for truth, then I’m sure we will find all kinds of “unfounded†ideas between you and I. We are not going able to agree on much of anything relative to God’s nature without Scripture being the truth (which it is). Such as your statement below.

God sees, hears and knows all even when He is in state of somnolence, and He remains omnipotent even then, but His omnipotence to save all humans/souls of the universe remains more or less not completely expressed/advanced,

It’s interesting that when you do mention Scripture(s), those very Scriptures conflict with your ideas about God. Such as here:

For there is one God, and one mediator(also: and one Lord) between God and men, the man(i.e. the ensouled being) Christ Jesus;

1 Tim 2

It just seems illogical to me that God could be in a state of “half-sleep†and/or somnolence and yet still be a mediator. Thankfully, I find no Scriptural support that God is in a state of “half-sleepâ€.

I will not ask a third time for your Scriptural support for the “half-sleep†of God or that He is “not completely expressedâ€.

Take care and I will pray that God blesses you.

 

[JCitoL]

these your contradictions look like a prepense unfounded doubling and trampling (against) the truth

I just noticed your profile indicates you are NOT Christian. That being the case, within this Christian Apologetics and Theology Section, it would seem unproductive to discuss matters of Scripture with you further. Maybe that’s why you cannot seem to answer my question Scripturally; of where exactly it is that God’s Word teaches that God is in a state of somnolence or half-sleep relative to salvation.

Without Scripture as our common basis for truth, then I’m sure we will find all kinds of “unfounded” ideas between you and I. We are not going able to agree on much of anything relative to God’s nature without Scripture being the truth (which it is). Such as your statement below.

God sees, hears and knows all even when He is in state of somnolence, and He remains omnipotent even then, but His omnipotence to save all humans/souls of the universe remains more or less not completely expressed/advanced,

It’s interesting that when you do mention Scripture(s), those very Scriptures conflict with your ideas about God. Such as here:

For there is one God, and one mediator(also: and one Lord) between God and men, the man(i.e. the ensouled being) Christ Jesus;

1 Tim 2

It just seems illogical to me that God could be in a state of “half-sleep” and/or somnolence and yet still be a mediator. Thankfully, I find no Scriptural support that God is in a state of “half-sleep”.

I will not ask a third time for your Scriptural support for the “half-sleep” of God or that He is “not completely expressed”.

Take care and I will pray that God blesses you.

here is another testimony about the somnolence of God, and in particular it comes to the falling of God into a deeper sate of somnolence:

Matthew 24:20-21 "But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter(i.e. in a moment of spiritual crisis), neither on the sabbath day(i.e. neither when God is in a deeper state of His somnolence to you): For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

because Jesus and all martyrs were caught, cast into prison, tortured and killed exactly when God the Father was in a deeper state of His somnolence to them, otherwise they would not suffer, however the somnolence of God is shown in many places of the biblical books, e.g. as it is in the book Song of Solomon:

Song of Solomon 4:16 "Awake, O north wind(i.e. wake up, o You Who really are the true God); and come, thou south(i.e. and if it is necessary, come also from south); blow upon my garden(i.e. fill my being with life), that the spices thereof may flow out(i.e. that there be abundant life). Let my beloved(i.e. let the true Lord God) come into his garden(i.e. inhabit His temple - the human being), and eat his pleasant fruits(i.e. and do His good works in/by it)."

Blessings

 

[George Muller]

Am I reading this right? That you believe God is half asleep?ing2

Boy thats a new one!

 

[smaller]

Am I reading this right? That you believe God is half asleep?ing2

Boy thats a new one!

Over the years I've heard many variants on that particular matter. What they all attempt to define is 'what is Gods actual Sabbath Rest' that He entered into in Genesis? And secondly, did He come out? They are both actually pretty interesting contemplations.

Rest indicates what? Yeah. Sleep. Relaxation. Hiatus. Whatever.

No big wow factor involved. It's readers reaching to understand what that 'Rest' actually is.

I doubt very much that God shows up in a building somewhere on Saturday quite frankly.

s

 

[Joe Domingo]

There are some who are blind here and some who are not.

Only time will tell in each one's life where they will end up.

I for one believe and know that the Ten Commandments are God's divine Law for mankind to live by, and I will do just that, there is not a single human being in this world that can cause me to change my mind about it. And I have no interest and trying to convince anyone else about keeping them. To each his own, as in the days of the judges.

Anyone separating and dividing the Ten Commandments only deceives themselves. Those here who abide in all ten of them know that and will not change their convictions.

I am more than glad to be guilty of this statement.

There will be no retraction.

 

[John 8:32]

Am I reading this right? That you believe God is half asleep?ing2

Boy thats a new one!

Over the years I've heard many variants on that particular matter. What they all attempt to define is 'what is Gods actual Sabbath Rest' that He entered into in Genesis? And secondly, did He come out? They are both actually pretty interesting contemplations.

Rest indicates what? Yeah. Sleep. Relaxation. Hiatus. Whatever.

No big wow factor involved. It's readers reaching to understand what that 'Rest' actually is.

I doubt very much that God shows up in a building somewhere on Saturday quite frankly.

s

I doubt very much that you know what you are talking about...

Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

 

[Joe Domingo]

Am I reading this right? That you believe God is half asleep?ing2

Boy thats a new one!

Over the years I've heard many variants on that particular matter. What they all attempt to define is 'what is Gods actual Sabbath Rest' that He entered into in Genesis? And secondly, did He come out? They are both actually pretty interesting contemplations.

Rest indicates what? Yeah. Sleep. Relaxation. Hiatus. Whatever.

No big wow factor involved. It's readers reaching to understand what that 'Rest' actually is.

I doubt very much that God shows up in a building somewhere on Saturday quite frankly.

s

I doubt very much that you know what you are talking about...

Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

:toofunny

 

[Elijah674]

If you two are serious? Check out where the flood ones end up? Mal. 4

[1] For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
[2] But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
[3] And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

--Elijah

 

[George Muller]

There are some who are blind here and some who are not.

Only time will tell in each one's life where they will end up.

I for one believe and know that the Ten Commandments are God's divine Law for mankind to live by, and I will do just that, there is not a single human being in this world that can cause me to change my mind about it. And I have no interest and trying to convince anyone else about keeping them. To each his own, as in the days of the judges.

Anyone separating and dividing the Ten Commandments only deceives themselves. Those here who abide in all ten of them know that and will not change their convictions.

I am more than glad to be guilty of this statement.

There will be no retraction.

The turth of the gospel still remains the truth.
Ro 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

 

[smaller]

I doubt very much that you know what you are talking about...

Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Genesis 2:2
And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested -

call it what you will.

s

 

[John 8:32]

I doubt very much that you know what you are talking about...

Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Genesis 2:2
And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested -

call it what you will.

s

You may call it a space shuttle if you want, but the scripture you partially quoted says plainly that the seventh day is the Sabbath.

Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

 

[smaller]

You may call it a space shuttle if you want, but the scripture you partially quoted says plainly that the seventh day is the Sabbath.

God has His Days, we have ours. It is only your assumption that makes them the same, as if God is confined and subject to having His Days determined by this little planet and it's sun when there is a universe to behold?

How petty is that sight?

s

 

[Joe Domingo]

You may call it a space shuttle if you want, but the scripture you partially quoted says plainly that the seventh day is the Sabbath.

God has His Days, we have ours. It is only your assumption that makes them the same, as if God is confined and subject to having His Days determined by this little planet and it's sun when there is a universe to behold?

How petty is that sight?

s

Sorry man but you are going way of course here.

Scripture tells me that it is good for sound doctrine and not for private interpretation. Basically, I think you just got on that space shuttle.

The Seventh day that God gave us, and he gave us seven days to keep count, is the Sabbath period. And that is Sound Doctrine not subject to private interpretation.