The Absolute and Final Authority for Christians

[follower of Christ]

[

How do one know the Bible is the absolute and final authority?

And so begging the question "how do we know the Bible IS the Word of God?", since we agree that it is GOD who has absolute and final authority - and so where do we hear God's voice?

In His word and confirmed by His Spirit....

The reasoning follows, then, to identify God's Word when He speaks. It would be "beneficial", then, to identify Scriptures, would it not?

Without your circular arguments?

You can give this 'circular' thing a rest. I have NO intention of changing WHAT I believe and HOW I believe for your amusement

 

[follower of Christ]

I have no problems! I know the Bible is the Word of God by the witness of the Church, who wrote it. The problem is not whether you or I believe the Bible is the Word of God, but the means by which we KNOW it is from God. You come up with silly math patterns and the "voice in your breast" argument.

Oh, you mean THIS 'voice in breast' argument ?

The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God.
(Rom 8:16 EMTV)

How do we know that we arent being lied to, right ?

The former proves absolutely nothing (as if God must write in patterns and only HE can do this) and the later is purely subjective and cannot differentiate between the Mormon or Muslim who hears a similar "voice in their breast".

again...

The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God.
(Rom 8:16 EMTV)

You strive mightly against the goad because you realize how your argument rests upon sand.

No, it rests upon FAITH in the SAME GOD who PRESERVED His LAW thru the HARDHEARTED, DISOBEDIENT Jews...He did the SAME with His instruction to the church

 

[francisdesales]

Im sorry but AGAIN I am NOT confining myself to the NT OR to Philemon.
God preserved His WHOLE word....not just pieces of it.

Why stop there at the NT? How about the Koran and the Book of Mormon? Since God preserves ALL of His Word, then I suppose your sad arguments will tell us that the above are ALSO part of God's Word...

If GOD wanted Philemon there then its THERE because HE made it so....for the SAME reason His law is there.

Don't you realize this is begging the question???

By this logic, we must admit that the Iliad is also the Word of God, since it has been preserved and it speaks of God within it...

God preserved lots of things, but that doesn't make it His written Word.

And it doesnt matter if fallible mans sense of logic is offended...*I* trust GOD, not the Jew whom God entrusted with His words....or the church whom He did also.

You trust God but you stop at the Koran, when "God" speaks within the Koran...according to the very words of the Koran, "written" by God Himself... THAT is "trusting God"??? No, you use the logic of man to tell you when God speaks and when He doesn't speak, even if the words SAY they are God's Words.

Without saying it, you have been acclimated to believe that the witness of the Catholic Church is worthy of believing, since it is engrained within you that the Sacred Scriptures do not extend to the Koran.

So *IF* I were taking MANS word as TRUTH, then ALL of those others claiming inspiration of God would have to ALSO be accepted AS Gods word.
I believe because GOD confirms to me, not because of the catholic church whom I DONT follow in the least.

God speaks to you directly and tells YOU that the Christian "Bible" is the full and inerrant Word, while to the Mormon, God tells the same thing about Mormon Scriptures...

Either the Catholic Church is right or it is not. God is not tipping the scales in YOUR favor here over the Mormon, lying to the Mormon while telling you the truth... We are not interested in your subjective opinions about the voices you claim to hear.

Denial of facts doesnt nullify them.

What facts am I denying? You have not provided any facts to even deny!!!

yes, we all realize that without 'This is GODs Word' in the opening sentence that you cant believe it but WE DO because WE trust that GOD brought His word together into a coherent whole.

In the Koran? The Book of Mormon? The Torah? the New Testament? So many claims, it is so confusing to do this based upon that little "voice" inside your noggin... Further, it is begging the question that God DOES "bring His Word into a coherent whole" already. Again, where is there indication from the NT that there will be no further Scriptures???

Since it was claimed long ago that the Bible is the Word of God of its own accord and is the highest authority, this issue is VERY pertinent to the discussion - what IS the Bible, then?

Pick up a KJV. There you go.

Circular argument alert!!!!

That might impress your buddies, but not here...

Again it is ABSURD to demand that EVERY letter Paul wrote must contain some specific phrase you are demanding of it.

I don't demand anything from Paul. However, there are particular rules of thumb that one would expect to see to call a letter "self-acclaiming" to be God's Word, as you pretend.

Heck, we don't even know WHO wrote some of the NT letters. Take that into court and see where that will get you. Paul clearly worries about some of his letters being forged. Again, by INTERNAL evidence, we cannot clearly make the call that some may be forged. To say "God preserves His Word" again relies on an external witness, not the writing's existence, since the Shephard of Hermes also exists. Thus, we require an EXTERNAL source to vouch for the veracity of the writings.

And I dont care if it is or not, the principles are the same. GOD preserved His instruction and words to the JEWS and He has done so with His words to the CHURCH.

That entire concept is a presumption that a priori that the NT is indeed the Word of God to begin with. You begin with the first part of the circular argument, then argue using it as your source of information.

If I was Jewish, I would say "the NT is not the Word of God, God has already preserved it entire".

Is this sinking in yet???

Ask your church why they chose to put them in there. THEY considered them all inspired, apparently, so your argument is with them, not me.

[/quote]

My argument has never been about what I believe, but why YOU believe that the Bible is the Word of God. I rely on an external witness, the Church. You rely on a circular argument and "voices". You have yet to give an explanation for your circular argument, which you arrogantly claimed was self-evident and conclusive.

We are finding out that it is NOT self-evident, nor is it conclusive...

 

[francisdesales]

Jim Jones was a whacko who perverted Gods word to His own purposes...sound familiar ?

Yes, you do that with divorce and now with the Word of God...

Thanks for reminding me...

 

[francisdesales]

You can give this 'circular' thing a rest. I have NO intention of changing WHAT I believe and HOW I believe for your amusement

That's too bad you will not give me the conclusive and obvious evidence that proves your point.

Until then, I will continue to refute your sad argument.

 

[francisdesales]

How do we know that we arent being lied to, right ?

The point is that the argument "God told me" is insufficient to prove that the Bible is the Word of God... Muslims use it, JV's use it, Mormons use it. Obviously, God is not spreading lies and so we question this "God speaks to me about the content of Scriptures" notion that Jean Calvin tried to foist upon his constituents...

The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God.
(Rom 8:16 EMTV)

Which says nothing about the content of Scriptures, but whether we are in Christ. We know that the Spirit of God dwells within us for the PURPOSE OF SANCTIFICATION. To make us holy. And indeed, it is my contention that the Spirit is not limited to Christians, but to those open to love. Thus, the Spirit doesn't comment on the individual books of the NT Bible, the Koran, or the book of Mormon and which is God's written Word.

No, it rests upon FAITH in the SAME GOD who PRESERVED His LAW thru the HARDHEARTED, DISOBEDIENT Jews...He did the SAME with His instruction to the church

That again presumes that God gave this instruction to the Catholic Church in the first place, which, quite interestingly, the Word calls the "pillar and foundation of the truth"...

Believe the witness of the Catholic Church or not...

 

[follower of Christ]

Who said God was inept to preserve His Word??? Again, more smoke and mirrors.

Who knows.
All I see from your posts is an attempt to push CHURCH authority here. Something we arent interested in since we DONT believe what the CC teaches.
Youre on a board filled with protestants, friend...you should KNOW how this story goes.

1. You beg the question by ASSUMING a priori that the bible is the Word of God. Thus, He must preserve this book which, circularly, is the Word of God...

Firstly I dont CARE if you call it circular. Youre making me ill with your continual use of that word as tho its supposed to MEAN something here...it doesnt.

Secondly PAUL says that the Jews were ENTRUSTED with the oracles of God....WE who TRUST in HIM see NO less concerning His ORACLES to the CHURCH in the NEW testament.

2. Perhaps God is preserving His Word elsewhere.

Which is where we go when we trust MEN who make claims about the matter.

3. Internal evidence of the Christian bible does not tell us it is the Word of God.

Yeah...it does for those who dont make unreasonable demands on the texts.

4. How do we know, presuming that the NT is indeed God's Word, that it is complete?

We trust GOD that He has not duped us.

The argument "God preserves it" is pointless,

Only for you, apparently.
For those of us who can SEE that Paul shows that the sinful Jews were entrusted with Gods 'words', we can see the SAME thing happening with the NEW covenant writings.

 

[Cornelius]

I have other things to do. I will talk about it again, when we can talk about this in a good way .

C

 

[follower of Christ]

The point is that the argument "God told me" is insufficient to prove that the Bible is the Word of God... Muslims use it, JV's use it, Mormons use it.

No, it is insufficient for those without FAITH in GOD.
Are you mormon ? Muslim ?
If not then certainly the demons that lead those groups have not deluded you.
IF you have the Spirit of God then HE leads us into all truth. MAN cannot be trusted to do so.

Joh 16:13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will announce to you things to come.

Maybe YOU should amend that to read 'MAN will lead you into all truth'

Which says nothing about the content of Scriptures, but whether we are in Christ.

What it shows, taken in harmony with other passages such as the one above is that we CAN trust the Spirit of God. We CANT trust men, even those in the 'church' of whom ravenous wolves have entered in not sparing the flock...

For I know this, that savage wolves will come in after my departure, not sparing the flock. Also from among you yourselves will arise men speaking things having been distorted, in order to draw away the disciples after them.
(Act 20:29-30 EMTV)

We know that the Spirit of God dwells within us for the PURPOSE OF SANCTIFICATION.

Do we ?
By your views I dont see HOW we could 'know' anything.

Thus, the Spirit doesn't comment on the individual books of the NT Bible, the Koran, or the book of Mormon and which is God's written Word.

And just like the OLD testament, not EVERY book says 'this is the word of GOD'...but we KNOW that PAUL says that Gods word were entrusted to the Jews...just as the NEW testament has been entrusted to sinful men and PRESERVED by GODS sovereign will.

Do you actually expect this to change at some point ?
My resonses will remain the same no matter how many times we go thru this.
Youre beating a dead horse here and wastiing BOTH our days.

That again presumes that God gave this instruction to the Catholic Church in the first place, which, quite interestingly, the Word calls the "pillar and foundation of the truth"...

No....HIS church...not the 'Catholic' church.

Believe the witness of the Catholic Church or not...

I dont....

 

[follower of Christ]

Begging the question yet again. What is God's ENTIRE word? Where does God tell us that the NT is part of the "Bible"???

Where does the OLD testament say what is the ENTIRE word there ? It doesnt. Nor does it have to.
Paul says that the Jews were ENTRUSTED with the oracles of God and thru them HE preserved His word and His law TO them...even tho they didnt understand it.

It is exactly the same with the NEW testament.
God USED men to PRESERVE his word.

 

[follower of Christ]

Of course. The Catholic Church. I have already stated my belief and trust in the Church. Your means of "proof" is a sad attempt to leave out the Church and rely on some fantasy self-accreditation.

Uh...yeah....trusting GOD in the matter is 'self' accreditation. :nag
You never cease to amaze me trying to sound so logical yet not quite able to keep up the front.

Why don't you just say it!
You believe that the Bible is the Word of God because the Church said so...

Its just killing you that we dont swear allegiance to the Catholic church, isnt it ?
How about this, if you keep doing what youre doing *I* will start using the report button too

You are getting there. Almost there.

Sorry to disappoint you.

You are beginning to see the futile attempt to pretend that the Bible proves itself.

no, Im just seeing the same old nonsense and desperation I saw in our last exchange.

You are beginning to realize that this is a circular argument and we must rely on the witness of others who put together a collection of writings and claim that they were from God.

Again, sorry but I dont accept mans pitiful sense of 'logic' over faith in God

Oh, sure, we can SAY that "God would preserve" His Word, but that begs the question that God even WROTE THE NT IN THE FIRST PLACE.

Yeah gee....I guess we should all just convert to Islam and get it over with

There is no logical argument here.

Riiiight ;)

Yours is no argument of substance,

None that you seem to grasp, anyway.

UNTIL you realize it must be an argument based upon the faith that men are truly being led by God.

And WHERE did THOSE men get that faith ? God or man ?

eventually youre going to realize it ALL comes back to GOD. NONE of us HAVE faith without Him.

.

 

[follower of Christ]

Jim Jones was a whacko who perverted Gods word to His own purposes...sound familiar ?

Yes, you do that with divorce and now with the Word of God...

Thanks for reminding me...

Do you really want to get into unscriptural 'annulments' here friend ?


.

 

[follower of Christ]

That's too bad you will not give me the conclusive and obvious evidence that proves your point.

The Jews were blind to the very word that was entrusted to them.
Apparently they werent the only ones.

Until then, I will continue to refute your sad argument.

ONly in your mind.

 

[follower of Christ]

Well...are we done here
Its growing a bit repetitive and thus pointless.


.

 

[follower of Christ]

I do think its funny that Francis is proving his own church wrong.

Im certain that isnt his point, but *IF* he tries to use that 'logic' against the protestant, asking us WHY letters like Philemon belong, then we have to ask him WHY the CC felt it belonged. They CERTAINLY DID feel that it was INSPIRED in order to include it.
Thus they were LED by GOD TO believe it WAS inspired and TO include it.
He cannot argue against our accepting it AS inspired without condemning the work of His church.
And he cannot argue against OUR faith in GOD that GOD led the CC TO include it...
The CREDIT does not go to MAN but to GOD because GOD is the ONLY one who is unchanging and worthy of abolute trust.

 

[Guest]

Back to the topic. It seems we have more or less reached an agreement that God, through the Holy Spirit, is the absolute and final authority for Christians. Are there any who disagree?

Its sounds great and spiritual when you say it like that, but that leaves a loophole for people who will then go beyond the Word and say "The Holy Spirit said so" . I know people like this, and it is because they separate God from the Bible. They think the "Word" is something "out there "Yes, its Jesus, but, but,we do not know anything more. It cannot be the Bible. That cannot be THE Word of God""

My intent was to summarize the conclusion drawn, but I do not necessarily agree with them. The conclusion is dangerous, as you have noted.

 

[Guest]

francisdesales,

I believe you accept the Bible as God's Word. I believe you are sincere in your faith. I believe you are a Christian. We may not agree on all the points of faith, but I want to distinguish myself from my fellow Protestants. Not all of us hate on our Catholic brothers.

 

[follower of Christ]

francisdesales,

I believe you accept the Bible as God's Word. I believe you are sincere in your faith. I believe you are a Christian. We may not agree on all the points of faith, but I want to distinguish myself from my fellow Protestants. Not all of us hate on our Catholic brothers.

Now lets NOT go there and put words into other folks mouths here.
If we cant have an HONEST discussion then lets not discuss this at all.

I have MANY dear catholic friends whom I know are born again Christians.
But they dont push this type of tripe on me that Francisdales keeps trying to. So I can have them as FRIENDS who are Catholic and not have these sorts of exchanges with them.

When Francis starts making demands as to WHY *I* believe something then he has crossed the line. He doesnt know me or my mind in the matter. THAT is why this discussion became an offense.
In his recent posts he spelled out VERY clearly what his agenda was here...

Why don't you just say it!
You believe that the Bible is the Word of God because the Church said so...

no one has to HATE catholics, or even francisdesales, to take offense at that ...

*I* believe because *I* trust GOD. Not because of what sinful, imperfect men tell me to believe about His word.
From my previous post...

Im certain that isnt his point, but *IF* he tries to use that 'logic' against the protestant, asking us WHY letters like Philemon belong, then we have to ask him WHY the CC felt it belonged. They CERTAINLY DID feel that it was INSPIRED in order to include it.
Thus they were LED by GOD TO believe it WAS inspired and TO include it.
He cannot argue against our accepting it AS inspired without condemning the work of His church.
And he cannot argue against OUR faith in GOD that GOD led the CC TO include it...
The CREDIT does not to to MAN but to GOD because GOD is the ONLY one who is unchanging and worthy of abolute trust.

 

[Guest]

A Brief History of the Slang Expression "Hate On" with a Cat

A player hate is one who disapproves of the tactics of a player. A hater is one who disapproves of something. To hate is to disapprove of something. To hate on is to express disapproval of something. To hate on Catholics is to express disapproval of Catholics.

I must be a young pup.

 

[follower of Christ]

Re: A Brief History of the Slang Expression "Hate On" with a Cat

A player hate is one who disapproves of the tactics of a player. A hater is one who disapproves of something. To hate is to disapprove of something. To hate on is to express disapproval of something. To hate on Catholics is to express disapproval of Catholics.

I must be a young pup.

No one here hates francis, I would think.
I dont like his presuming to tell me what I believe and why I believe it.
That and his trying to push the authority of the Catholic Church of whom I am not part.