The Absolute and Final Authority for Christians

[follower of Christ]

Apparently, that evidence is either secret or is beyond your ability to provide it...

Wow. Either you cant read or youve got your eyes covered every time you read my posts.
I suspect the latter...

All you are doing is bumping your gums. How about ponying up with this "conclusive evidence"?

Yeah....sure....I'll even copy it from an EXISTING post from this thread...
Item 1;
Wonder what BOOK this quote came from ?????

And keep the charge of Jehovah your God, to walk in His ways, to keep His statutes, and His commandments, and His judgments, and His testimonies, as it is written in the Law of Moses, so that you may prosper in all that you do and wherever you turn yourself,
(1Ki 2:3 MKJV)

Aww gee...could it be ? I think it is....the BIBLE...

Item 2;
GOD has spoken thru the prophets and apostles...
READERS SEE>>>> The Law of Moses IS the Law of God.

Where exactly is this conclusive evidence that Philemon is part of the Word of God FROM PHILEMON or ANY other part of the BIBLE????

Why dont you take a time machine back and ask the Catholic Church at that time WHY they included Philemon in with INSPIRED works when you seem to claim that God had no part of it.
Thats on the head of the catholic church friend...youre argument is with your own, not me. ;)


Item 2 continued;

The Law of Moses IS the Law of God.
by wm tipton

Assertions/Conclusions of this Article
To show that the law of Moses is indeed given to man by God Himself thru Moses.

Supporting Evidence
1.0

Leviticus
[quote:24o7qmrt]And that ye may teach the children of Israel all the statutes which the LORD hath spoken unto them by the hand of Moses.
(Lev 10:11 KJV)

And the LORD called unto Moses, and spake unto him out of the tabernacle of the congregation, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man of you bring an offering unto the LORD, ye shall bring your offering of the cattle, even of the herd, and of the flock.
(Lev 1:1-2 KJV)

And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a soul shall sin through ignorance against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and shall do against any of them:
(Lev 4:1-2 KJV)

And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, If a soul sin, and commit a trespass against the LORD, and lie unto his neighbour in that which was delivered him to keep, or in fellowship, or in a thing taken away by violence, or hath deceived his neighbour;
(Lev 6:1-2 KJV)
And Moses did as the LORD commanded him; and the assembly was gathered together unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.
(Lev 8:4 KJV)

And the LORD spake unto Moses and to Aaron, saying unto them, Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, These are the beasts which ye shall eat among all the beasts that are on the earth.
(Lev 11:1-2 KJV)

And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days; according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean.
(Lev 12:1-2 KJV)

And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron, saying, When a man shall have in the skin of his flesh a rising, a scab, or bright spot, and it be in the skin of his flesh like the plague of leprosy; then he shall be brought unto Aaron the priest, or unto one of his sons the priests:
(Lev 13:1-2 KJV)

And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, This shall be the law of the leper in the day of his cleansing: He shall be brought unto the priest:
(Lev 14:1-2 KJV)

And the LORD spake unto Moses and to Aaron, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When any man hath a running issue out of his flesh, because of his issue he is unclean.
(Lev 15:1-2 KJV)

Exodus

And Jehovah said to Moses, Come up to Me in the mountain, and be there. And I will give you tablets of stone, and the Law, and commandments which I have written, so that you may teach them.
(Exo 24:12 MKJV)

Numbers...

And the LORD spake unto Moses in the wilderness of Sinai, in the tabernacle of the congregation, on the first day of the second month, in the second year after they were come out of the land of Egypt, saying, Take ye the sum of all the congregation of the children of Israel, after their families, by the house of their fathers, with the number of their names, every male by their polls;
(Num 1:1-2 KJV)

Deuteronomy...

And it came to pass in the fortieth year, in the eleventh month, on the first day of the month, that Moses spake unto the children of Israel, according unto all that the LORD had given him in commandment unto them;
(Deu 1:3 KJV)

1 Kings

And keep the charge of Jehovah your God, to walk in His ways, to keep His statutes, and His commandments, and His judgments, and His testimonies, as it is written in the Law of Moses, so that you may prosper in all that you do and wherever you turn yourself,
(1Ki 2:3 MKJV)

2.0
An interesting one that shows that GOD Jehovah DID give this commandment from Deut TO Moses...

And it happened when the kingdom was confirmed in his hand, he killed his servants who had slain his father the king; But he did not kill the sons of the servants, according to that which is written in the Book of the Law of Moses, in which Jehovah commanded, saying, The fathers shall not be put to death for the sons, nor shall the sons be put to death for the fathers, but each shall be put to death for his own sin.
(2Ki 14:5-6 MKJV)

What the law said...

The fathers shall not be put to death for the sons, neither shall the sons be put to death for the fathers. Every man shall be put to death for his own sin.
(Deu 24:16 MKJV)

Quite apparently God DID give Deuteronomy and all the instruction therein TO Moses ....
His word proves that fact.[/quote:24o7qmrt]

 

[follower of Christ]

So your claim is that the catholic church did such a MISERABLE job determining what was INSPIRED that we cant trust ANY of the New testament as BEING inspired by the Holy Spirit then ?
Apparently the CC screwed it all up, right ?

Either that or you MUST admit inspiration of Philemon and the rest of Pauls letters and if the SPIRIT of GOD INSPIRED then those INSPIRED words ARE the WORDs of GOD.
Not too complicated a concept.

So which is it ?
Inspired...or did the catholic church fail in its duties ?
And please dont insult our intelligence with an juggling act here.

Its pretty bad when a protestant trusts the WORK of gathering and testing the texts done by MEN (as directed by God) than a professing catholic seems to.

.

Actually I have never though about it like this, but yes, you are right . Either they failed or they did not. Did they manage to actually hear from the Holy Spirit on this one occasion?

C

And dear old francisdesales either has to admit that his church FAILED miserably in their efforts....or admit that Philemon IS inspired by God and thus IS Gods 'word'....

The FACT is that CATHOLICS CANNOT bash the bible (with the apocrypha however) WITHOUT bashing the work of the CATHOLIC CHURCH.
The CANNOT DENY the inspiration of ANY NT book without ADMITTING that the CATHOLIC CHURCH screwed up and put UNinspired works in the bible.
*IF* they failed and Philemon ISNT the inspired word of God, then how can they trust ANY Of the other writings in the NT.
And by that same token, how also could they trust ANY Of the other works they use if they were so wrong about Philemon...they could have missed the boat on anything or everything else.
The ONLY argument that any catholic actually has is that most protestants have removed the Apocrypha from our bibles.

Its VERY obvious why francisdesales doesnt want to discuss this point and keeps trying to steer me away from it.


.

 

[Guest]

Back to the topic. It seems we have more or less reached an agreement that God, through the Holy Spirit, is the absolute and final authority for Christians. Are there any who disagree?

 

[Cornelius]

Back to the topic. It seems we have more or less reached an agreement that God, through the Holy Spirit, is the absolute and final authority for Christians. Are there any who disagree?

Its sounds great and spiritual when you say it like that, but that leaves a loophole for people who will then go beyond the Word and say "The Holy Spirit said so" . I know people like this, and it is because they separate God from the Bible. They think the "Word" is something "out there "Yes, its Jesus, but, but,we do not know anything more. It cannot be the Bible. That cannot be THE Word of God""

You see if say the Catholics have to admit the Bible is also the Word of God, they know they will be in deep trouble.(they have added too many thing to be able to change now. Their whole system would crash if they started to believe the Bible is the actual WORD of God) Therefor they must defend their point with their lives, even if it might cost them their lives. They don't care, because they serve a system and not the Word.

You can see that they would be more than happy to agree with what you have said, because it leaves them off the hook. But not only Catholics, this error has spread through the Christian community.I mean, (I am speaking to all who are reading this and not just to minnesota) just ask yourself;Do YOU know and believe that the Bible is also THE Word of God, or have they gotten to you too already?

If you do not believe its THE Word of God, then what do you build on ? How can you be sure you are building on the truth, if you believe its the writings of mere men ?

 

[francisdesales]

Ive SHOWN CONCLUSIVELY that GOD spoke THRU His prophets TO the people...we have what was SPOKEN to them IN WRITING as recorded in our BIBLES.

More circular arguments do not solve the problem...

And secondly, let's try to stick to the New Testament, since that is the matter under question.

If thats too hard a concept for you poster, then Im sorry but theres nothing more we can do for you. Youre living in denial.

The only denial I see is your inability to provide me with any internal evidence that ANY writing of the New Testament is from God, with the possible exception of Revelation. Can you try to stick to the topic, or is THAT concept too hard...???

Ask YOUR church why THEY felt to include Philemon along with the other inspired writings of Paul.
IF PHilemon ISNT inspired (ie GODS word) then YOUR church (catholic church) is the ONLY one to blame...now isnt that right ;)

Why would you believe "my" Church and her decisions? Why do you pick and choose what she preaches - saying that the NT is God's Word, infallibly, inerrantly, YET, when THE SAME MEN say that Christ is truly present in the Eucharist, "follower of Christ" suddenly is no longer a follower of Christ but his own whims...

Of course, this line of discussion does not address internal self-authentication, and yet again, you cannot prove your point.

I repeat, you CANNOT prove your point. I will debate you any day of the week on this. There is no self-authentication that the New Testament or its independent writings are the Word of God. WE believe it is because we believe the word and witness of the Catholic Church. Like it or not....

 

[francisdesales]

Why dont you take a time machine back and ask the Catholic Church at that time WHY they included Philemon in with INSPIRED works when you seem to claim that God had no part of it.
Thats on the head of the catholic church friend...youre argument is with your own, not me. ;)

You asked me to read your posts - but this is all you got on Philemon and how IT PROVES IT BELONGS IN SACRED SCRIPTURES??? You continue to waste my time with your childish games.

That's what you got to say, that tells me that the Bible is the Word of God and this is self-evident???

Whatever...

I think you have had plenty of time to address this circular argument issue. Could you let me in on this "conclusive evidence" you babble about?

 

[francisdesales]

And dear old francisdesales either has to admit that his church FAILED miserably in their efforts....or admit that Philemon IS inspired by God and thus IS Gods 'word'....

Why do you continue to change the subject? You were so arrogantly certain that the Bible and its individual components CONCLUSIVELY PROVED that THEY were the Word of God...I as a reader could not help BUT recognize, from internal evidence ALONE, that the individual letters found in the New Testament ALL belonged, and NONE were left out. Typical protestant attitude... "Me and my bible" - forget about WHERE it came from...

And yet, all you got to say is that Catholics must have fallen down on the job???

This tells me that you have NO evidence that the Bible is self-authenticating and that INDEED, you DO credit the Catholic Church as THE witness of the veracity of the fact that it possesses Sacred Scriptures from God. Of course, I have said this over and over, despite your lunatic accusations...

It appears that the walls are crumbling down and you are beginning to realize that your beginning argument is indeed circular and useless. Whether you like it or not, OUR admission that the NT is the Word of God is indeed based upon the witness of the Catholic Church. NOT UPON THE BIBLE!!!

And that bothers you, doesn't it... Because it leads to some implications that you do NOT want to address, since it will collapse the rest of the sandy foundation you build your "theology" upon.

 

[francisdesales]

You see if say the Catholics have to admit the Bible is also the Word of God, they know they will be in deep trouble.(they have added too many thing to be able to change now. Their whole system would crash if they started to believe the Bible is the actual WORD of God) Therefor they must defend their point with their lives, even if it might cost them their lives. They don't care, because they serve a system and not the Word.

??? Ridiculous... I as a Catholic recognize that the Bible is the Word of God. I ALSO recognize that YOU are not the point of reference for judging whether the "system" has left the "actual" Word of God. In other words, you hardly know what the Catholic Church teaches, nor are you knowledgeable enough about Scriptures to make your claims. Catholic doctrines were not just invented on one fine day out of the blue, but are the result of pondering upon Scriptures and the mind of the Church over long periods of time. If you were to actually read about such processes and conclusions, your mind would be opened to such sublime truths. But since you set yourself up as the "guardian" for the meaning of Scriptures - sadly, against what the Scriptures themselves say on this subject - your arrogance blinds you to the possibility that YOU are indeed defending a "system" and not the Word.

The system of Cornelius... A church of one

You can see that they would be more than happy to agree with what you have said, because it leaves them off the hook. But not only Catholics, this error has spread through the Christian community.

Let's try to keep this on topic, Cornelius, rather than attacking what YOU see as error in other Christian communities. The issue is whether the Bible and its individual components are self-authenticating. In other words, if I laid Philemon in front of a person who has never heard of Christianity, would HE KNOW that this short letter was the WORD OF GOD?

Rather than attacking others, perhaps you can use that vast knowledge and ability to judge other communities on their following God's Word you pretend to have and explain how Philemon is the Word of God from Philemon alone.

 

[Cornelius]

??? Ridiculous... I as a Catholic recognize that the Bible is the Word of God.

No you do not, that is why we are having this discussion. You say thinks like the following AND you want to say the Bible is the Word of God. You cannot butter your bread on both sides. It far to convenient to sway the argument as it suits you.

Please explain to me where the letter of Paul to Philemon is the self-authenticating Word of God... Based upon internal argument alone, if I were to see this letter, I would "KNOW" it is the Word of God???

Or do you now say that Philemon IS part of the Word of God ?

 

[Cornelius]

Catholic doctrines were not just invented on one fine day out of the blue, but are the result of pondering upon Scriptures and the mind of the Church over long periods of time.

[/quote]
Here I must agree, they took years to invent.

 

[Cornelius]

Let's try to keep this on topic, Cornelius, rather than attacking what YOU see as error in other Christian communities. The issue is whether the Bible and its individual components are self-authenticating. In other words, if I laid Philemon in front of a person who has never heard of Christianity, would HE KNOW that this short letter was the WORD OF GOD?

Rather than attacking others, perhaps you can use that vast knowledge and ability to judge other communities on their following God's Word you pretend to have and explain how Philemon is the Word of God from Philemon alone.

Actually that is not the topic at all. The topic is The Absolute and Final Authority for Christians

 

[follower of Christ]

More circular arguments do not solve the problem...

I dont care what you call it chap, MANS reasoning and logic ISNT relevant here. GODS sovereignty is. Not my problem if you cannot figure that out and if we have to do this 10,000 more times the answers will be the same.

And secondly, let's try to stick to the New Testament, since that is the matter under question.

And you dont think we can figure out VERY easily why you are making this request ?
No, we're not sticking to the New testament and no, we arent sticking to Philemon.
The title of THIS thread is "The Absolute and Final Authority for Christians"
Its not 'what books belong in the NEW testament" ..so deal with it.

The only denial I see is your inability to provide me with any internal evidence that ANY writing of the New Testament is from God, with the possible exception of Revelation. Can you try to stick to the topic, or is THAT concept too hard...???

Again...The title of THIS thread is "The Absolute and Final Authority for Christians"
And the OP asked:
"How do one know the Bible is the absolute and final authority?
NOT;
How do one know that PHILEMON is the absolute and final authority?

The thread isnt titled; 'what books belong in the NEW testament" ..so deal with it.

And AGAIN you accuse YOUR own church of failing in their duties by including UNinspired works in the bible ?

Why would you believe "my" Church and her decisions?

Because, poster, God USED the hardhearted Hebrews to preserve His word before whom He even ended the covenant with. He can use ANYONE He chooses to use to fulfill HIS sovereign will.

Of course, this line of discussion does not address internal self-authentication, and yet again, you cannot prove your point.
WE believe it is because we believe the word and witness of the Catholic Church.

Sorry chap, but its ALREADY BEEN proven..the BIBLE IS the WORD of GOD....

And keep the charge of Jehovah your God, to walk in His ways, to keep His statutes, and His commandments, and His judgments, and His testimonies, as it is written in the Law of Moses, so that you may prosper in all that you do and wherever you turn yourself,
(1Ki 2:3 MKJV)

Need to see it again ?

I repeat, you CANNOT prove your point.

I repeat, you need to learn to accept the facts that I already have proven it...that and you seem to have no problem accusing your own church of faltering in their duties.

WE believe it is because we believe the word and witness of the Catholic Church.

Uh..dude...*I* am not catholic, nor do I buy into her godless bowing before idols of men and women...so *I* dont believe anything because the catholic church tells me to.
*I* believe the bible is GODS word because His Spirit confirms to mine that the scriptures ARE His words.

Are we done here ?

 

[follower of Christ]

You asked me to read your posts - but this is all you got on Philemon and how IT PROVES IT BELONGS IN SACRED SCRIPTURES??? You continue to waste my time with your childish games.

You are really amazing. Ive never seen someone so determined to destroy their own church.
*IF* Philemon DOESNT BELONG in the bible, chap, then it is YOUR CHURCH who has FAILED !
When that sinks in maybe you can come back and discuss this reasonably and logically.

It is SAD that as a protestant *I* trust the work done by YOUR own church MORE than YOU do...very sad.

That's what you got to say, that tells me that the Bible is the Word of God and this is self-evident???

again

And keep the charge of Jehovah your God, to walk in His ways, to keep His statutes, and His commandments, and His judgments, and His testimonies, as it is written in the Law of Moses, so that you may prosper in all that you do and wherever you turn yourself,
(1Ki 2:3 MKJV)

Whatever...

I think you have had plenty of time to address this circular argument issue. Could you let me in on this "conclusive evidence" you babble about?

YOu seem to be the only one here who doesnt get it...

And keep the charge of Jehovah your God, to walk in His ways, to keep His statutes, and His commandments, and His judgments, and His testimonies, as it is written in the Law of Moses, so that you may prosper in all that you do and wherever you turn yourself,
(1Ki 2:3 MKJV)

 

[follower of Christ]

Why do you continue to change the subject?

Apparently you dont know what the actual subject is. I suggest you REread the thread title;
"The Absolute and Final Authority for Christians"
Nothing there confining me to the NEW testament as youd like.
And when a catholic argues against what books belong in the New Testament, well, you set yourself up on that point..seeing who canonized the thing ;)

You were so arrogantly certain that the Bible and its individual components CONCLUSIVELY PROVED that THEY were the Word of God..
.I as a reader could not help BUT recognize, from internal evidence ALONE, that the individual letters found in the New Testament ALL belonged, and NONE were left out.

Apparently your catholic forefathers felt Philemon DOES belong in GODS word....and for some reason you seem to think they blundered the whole thing.

Typical protestant attitude... "Me and my bible" - forget about WHERE it came from...

Apparently YOU are one who forgot, poster. You seem to be continually accusing your own of faltering in their duties when gathering it all together.
And I know where it came from. The same type of place that the old testament came from. God used man to create and preserve it. Even if those men were disobedient.

And yet, all you got to say is that Catholics must have fallen down on the job???

NO NO NO NO....DONT EVEN TRY IT !!!!!
*I* am NOT the one who is saying Philemon doesnt belong....YOU ARE !

*I* AGREE that the CC got it right, poster..dont even try to pull this crap.
YOU are the one rejecting the work of YOUR church in that matter, NOT me

This tells me that you have NO evidence that the Bible is self-authenticating and that INDEED, you DO credit the Catholic Church as THE witness of the veracity of the fact that it possesses Sacred Scriptures from God. Of course, I have said this over and over, despite your lunatic accusations...

Firstly *I* credit GOD, not your church.
God used the hardhearted, callous Hebrews who kept running to idols every chance they got to keep and preserve His word, He can use Anyone as He sees fit.
I dont have to be a Jew to believe the OLD testament is His word...and I dont have to be a catholic to believe the NEW is either.

It appears that the walls are crumbling down and you are beginning to realize that your beginning argument is indeed circular and useless.

No, it appears that you are getting desperate and entirely losing track of the details of this discussion.

Whether you like it or not, OUR admission that the NT is the Word of God is indeed based upon the witness of the Catholic Church. NOT UPON THE BIBLE!!!

Let me say this one more time.
I AM NOT A CATHOLIC.
Is that sinking in ?
I AM NOT CATHOLIC
Got it yet ?
I DO NOT BELIEVE ANYTHING BECAUSE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH TELLS ME TO BELIEVE IT
Is that clear enough ?
IN FACT, IN MOST THINGS I'D BELIEVE JUST THE OPPOSITE IF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH DEMANDED ME TO BELIEVE IT JUST TO PROVE A POINT.
is that plain enough poster?

I DONT believe because the CC tells me to believe anything.
*I* believe because His Spirit confirms to me that the scriptures are His word.
If it worked like you claim Id believe that every writing out there was 'gods' word.

And that bothers you, doesn't it.

No, you really just give me a good chuckle each morning

.. Because it leads to some implications that you do NOT want to address, since it will collapse the rest of the sandy foundation you build your "theology" upon.

Keep telling yourself this nonsense. Maybe it will eventually sink in.

 

[follower of Christ]

The issue is whether the Bible and its individual components are self-authenticating

No, that is the issue YOU are trying to push here....it isnt the topic of the thread itself which is
"The Absolute and Final Authority for Christians"
Its VERY clear that you want to confine this discussion to your own pet agenda, poster. I, for one, am not interested in confining myself so, and my guess is that Cornelius isnt either.

In other words, if I laid Philemon in front of a person who has never heard of Christianity, would HE KNOW that this short letter was the WORD OF GOD?

And we ALL know that ISNT how the bible was canonized...at least I hope to God you dont believe that nonsense.
Do you even know the WORK and RESEARCH that went into deciding what belonged ?
I would certainly hope that you found out before starting this discussion.
It WASNT just about a letter SAYING 'This is God speaking'....Id think youd know that being a studied catholic.

 

[follower of Christ]

Actually that is not the topic at all. The topic is The Absolute and Final Authority for Christians

Well worth repeating...

Heres the OP again for those who missed it...

This is a continuation of a discussion from "The Truth About Tongues" thread.

The bible IS the absolute and final authority, friend.

How do one know the Bible is the absolute and final authority?

.

 

[Cornelius]

NO NO NO NO....DONT EVEN TRY IT !!!!!
*I* am NOT the one who is saying Philemon doesnt belong....YOU ARE !

*I* AGREE that the CC got it right, poster..dont even try to pull this crap.
YOU are the one rejecting the work of YOUR church in that matter, NOT me

.

LOL

 

[francisdesales]

Actually that is not the topic at all. The topic is The Absolute and Final Authority for Christians

It IS when you say that the bible is the absolute authority and you have not determined how we know that the Bible IS the Word of God... That is when I came into this discussion. By questioning your sacred and holy cow...

 

[Cornelius]

Actually that is not the topic at all. The topic is The Absolute and Final Authority for Christians

It IS when you say that the bible is the absolute authority and you have not determined how we know that the Bible IS the Word of God... That is when I came into this discussion. By questioning your sacred and holy cow...

Oh but I have already proved that it is the Word of God. I have told you about the perfect mathematical pattern remember ? You must remember, because you still confused it with numerology.

I know it means nothing to you, because you will not look into the matter yourself. So .......there you go. Nothing I can do for you.All you will do is to deny something that you know nothing about.

C

 

[follower of Christ]

Actually that is not the topic at all. The topic is The Absolute and Final Authority for Christians

It IS when you say that the bible is the absolute authority and you have not determined how we know that the Bible IS the Word of God... That is when I came into this discussion. By questioning your sacred and holy cow...

So your claim is that GODS words of instruction to His people ARENT the absolute authority ?
Isnt that pretty much what got the OT Jew into trouble ?