The Absolute and Final Authority for Christians

[francisdesales]

I dont care what you call it chap, MANS reasoning and logic ISNT relevant here. GODS sovereignty is. Not my problem if you cannot figure that out and if we have to do this 10,000 more times the answers will be the same.

God's sovereignty is not at issue. We both agree that God is sovereign, no? More smoke and mirrors from you...

The issue is how we know God's WILL. While we both agree that the Word of God is found in the Bible (although not completely), your determination of HOW YOU know it is the Word of God is fallacious, if I may borrow one of your pet words...

No, we're not sticking to the New testament and no, we arent sticking to Philemon.
The title of THIS thread is "The Absolute and Final Authority for Christians"

No foolin', and thus, the NEW TESTAMENT is the issue, not the Old Testament...

Philemon is found in the New Testament, and your refusal to prove, with "conclusive" evidence, says that yet again, you don't have a leg to stand upon to make an argument for your circular argument.

Its not 'what books belong in the NEW testament" ..so deal with it.

Deal with your inability to accept reality? That's not my problem. It is you who are making yourself look silly. The very content of the "Bible" is at stake, here!!! What is the point of discussing an inerrant and infallible book when you cannot even know which books BELONG in it!!!

You are becoming quite desperate...

The only denial I see is your inability to provide me with any internal evidence that ANY writing of the New Testament is from God, with the possible exception of Revelation. Can you try to stick to the topic, or is THAT concept too hard...???

Again...The title of THIS thread is "The Absolute and Final Authority for Christians"
And the OP asked:
"How do one know the Bible is the absolute and final authority?
NOT;
How do one know that PHILEMON is the absolute and final authority?

Try to put two and two together.

What good is a Bible if you don't know what IS the BIBLE?

This is at the very HEART of the discussion, whether you admit it or not...

And AGAIN you accuse YOUR own church of failing in their duties by including UNinspired works in the bible ?

Now, you appear to not be able to read. Or you are a liar...

WHERE have I said the Church failed in their duties by including uninspired works??? You have atttributed that to me because of your inability to understand what I am saying.

Try to sit down and read this slowly...

I conclude that the Bible is the Word of God because the Church TELLS me it is...

NOT from internal evidence found within the Bible itself.

I have repeated this and repeat it again. Stop putting words in my mouth and start putting your money where your mouth is and show me how the NT proves itself to be the Word of God.

Thus, your argument is circular. The bible is the Word of God because the Word of God is the Bible" - and all based upon the false concept that the NT speaks as a whole on its OWN, that it is self-authenticating...

Is this seeping through yet???

God USED the hardhearted Hebrews to preserve His word before whom He even ended the covenant with. He can use ANYONE He chooses to use to fulfill HIS sovereign will.

Begging the question again. Mormons and Muslims can say the same thing about their "scriptures" and yet, you don't believe them to be the word of God... And these "scriptures" even CLAIM to be the Word of God!

Sorry chap, but its ALREADY BEEN proven..the BIBLE IS the WORD of GOD....

Sorry chap, you are sounding like a chimp.

You have not proven anything.

Prove to me how the various letters of Paul or John (IF they wrote them) tell us that they are unequivocally the Word of God!!!!

Since it was claimed long ago that the Bible is the Word of God of its own accord and is the highest authority, this issue is VERY pertinent to the discussion - what IS the Bible, then?

From Scriptures alone, prove that the table of contents is complete and without error - the Word of God.

And keep the charge of Jehovah your God, to walk in His ways, to keep His statutes, and His commandments, and His judgments, and His testimonies, as it is written in the Law of Moses, so that you may prosper in all that you do and wherever you turn yourself,
(1Ki 2:3 MKJV) Need to see it again ?

That is not in the New Testament, and this thread is addressed to Christians, not Jews. So you yet again have proven nothing regarding this thread, even if I was inclined to agree that 1 Kings calls itself the Word of God. Now, how do we know that from Matthew onto Revelation is Scriptures?

Oh, yea, someone put those books and letters together, right?

WHO? And what makes you think they got them all correct?

Because the Church is the pillar and foundation of the truth???

Uh..dude...*I* am not catholic, nor do I buy into her godless bowing before idols of men and women...so *I* dont believe anything because the catholic church tells me to.

Much to your loss.

*I* believe the bible is GODS word because His Spirit confirms to mine that the scriptures ARE His words.

How do you know the Spirit of God tells or confirms ANYTHING to you? Becuase you said so?

Jim Jones thought he heard God's voice, as well. Making self-righteous and subjective claims, while good for your already inflated ego, proves nothing objective ...

Considering how you try to argue, I doubt that the Spirit of God necessarily tells you what the contents of Sacred Scriptures are...

So we are back to square one. You do not have an argument that proves that the Bible is the Word of God, based upon "voices" or the Bible itself.

Only an external witness can prove the Bible as the Word of God.

The Church is that witness.

 

[francisdesales]

[

How do one know the Bible is the absolute and final authority?

And so begging the question "how do we know the Bible IS the Word of God?", since we agree that it is GOD who has absolute and final authority - and so where do we hear God's voice?

The reasoning follows, then, to identify God's Word when He speaks. It would be "beneficial", then, to identify Scriptures, would it not?

Without your circular arguments?

 

[follower of Christ]

Ill tell ya...for someone who seemingly was DONE with me you certainly dont seem to want to leave it alone...

 

[Cornelius]

What good is a Bible if you don't know what IS the BIBLE?

You must remember that , that is YOUR problem. Other posters do know the Bible is the Word of God.

The mathematical pattern is more than enough proof, but then the Spirit within us also confirms it.

C

 

[francisdesales]

Oh but I have already proved that it is the Word of God. I have told you about the perfect mathematical pattern remember ? You must remember, because you still confused it with numerology.

I have already addressed this, here and at another belabored thread of yours.

Any man knowledgeable about mathematics can think of a mathematical pattern, and then proceed to write words. This numerology proves absolutely nothing about the author of Sacred Scriptures. Do you really think math was just recently invented??? Secondly, other literary works possess "mathematical patterns". Does this tell us that we need to re-assess the contents of Scriptures??? And finally, God's WORDS are inspired, not numbers. Numbers are meaningless by themselves, even in patterns.

No, your attempts to "prove" Scriptures are feable. Science cannot and will not prove that the Scriptures are from God. Only by faith can we know that the Bible is the Word of God, not "arguments", whether circular or imaginary.

 

[francisdesales]

What good is a Bible if you don't know what IS the BIBLE?

You must remember that , that is YOUR problem. Other posters do know the Bible is the Word of God.

The mathematical pattern is more than enough proof, but then the Spirit within us also confirms it.

C

I have no problems! I know the Bible is the Word of God by the witness of the Church, who wrote it. The problem is not whether you or I believe the Bible is the Word of God, but the means by which we KNOW it is from God. You come up with silly math patterns and the "voice in your breast" argument. The former proves absolutely nothing (as if God must write in patterns and only HE can do this) and the later is purely subjective and cannot differentiate between the Mormon or Muslim who hears a similar "voice in their breast".

You strive mightly against the goad because you realize how your argument rests upon sand.

 

[follower of Christ]

God's sovereignty is not at issue. We both agree that God is sovereign, no? More smoke and mirrors from you...

It is when a person claims that He was too inept to preserve His word...

The issue is how we know God's WILL. While we both agree that the Word of God is found in the Bible (although not completely), your determination of HOW YOU know it is the Word of God is fallacious, if I may borrow one of your pet words...

And again, you have to accuse your church of faltering in order to question anything in the bible, now dont you ?
Its hardly wrong to TRUST God to preserve His word....at least for those who DO actually TRUST Him over fallible men.

No foolin', and thus, the NEW TESTAMENT is the issue, not the Old Testament...

no, this is a BIBLE issue. Im not allowing you to try to force me into a corner chap. God preserved His ENTIRE word, not just bits and pieces of it.

Philemon is found in the New Testament,

And WHO decided that as far as religious groups go ?
Any idea ?

and your refusal to prove, with "conclusive" evidence, says that yet again, you don't have a leg to stand upon to make an argument for your circular argument.

When you can show that your church screwed it up then give me a ring.
Till then I trust that God preserved His word thru man.

Deal with your inability to accept reality? That's not my problem.

Im not the one trying to force everyone to remain on one point to escape the OBVIOUS facts.

It is you who are making yourself look silly.

only in your mind...

The very content of the "Bible" is at stake, here!!! What is the point of discussing an inerrant and infallible book when you cannot even know which books BELONG in it!!!

You need to talk to your own church leadership on this point, chap....THEY are the ones who decided what BELONGS and what doesnt...now arent they ;)

 

[francisdesales]

Ill tell ya...for someone who seemingly was DONE with me you certainly dont seem to want to leave it alone...

You should be thankful that I still am trying to show you out of your way of darkness...

 

[Vic C.]

NO NO NO NO....DONT EVEN TRY IT !!!!!
*I* am NOT the one who is saying Philemon doesnt belong....YOU ARE !

*I* AGREE that the CC got it right, poster..dont even try to pull this crap.
YOU are the one rejecting the work of YOUR church in that matter, NOT me

.

LOL

You actually think that's funny? I don't.

...and YOU FoC, we do not appreciate the language and tone of your posts. You have this bad habit of referring to members as "poster" knowing full well they have a user name on this site. Please don't patronize the other members of this site!

 

[follower of Christ]

You are becoming quite desperate...

Going to mimic anything else Ive said to you ?

What good is a Bible if you don't know what IS the BIBLE?

Ask the Catholic Church who DECIDED what was to be in the bible.
This really isnt adding up for you that your problem ISNT with me its with YOUR CHURCH who PUT Philemon in the bible...

Now, you appear to not be able to read. Or you are a liar...
WHERE have I said the Church failed in their duties by including uninspired works??? You have atttributed that to me because of your inability to understand what I am saying.

The moment you claim that Philemon DOESNT belong in the bible that your church canonized.

I conclude that the Bible is the Word of God because the Church TELLS me it is...NOT from internal evidence found within the Bible itself.

And you are catholic....*I* am not.
So you can believe for ANY reason YOU choose, but *I* believe because His Spirit confirms to ME that it IS His word.
And the internal evidence is overwhelming...exact phrases or not.

 

[follower of Christ]

...and YOU FoC, we do not appreciate the language and tone of your posts. You have this bad habit of referring to members as "poster" knowing full well they have a user name on this site. Please don't patronize the other members of this site!

Thats fine vic
I hope you'll be telling Francis to give it rest too. Im tired of being TOLD why *I* believe what I do. Its just as patronizing as the word 'poster'....

 

[follower of Christ]

Ill tell ya...for someone who seemingly was DONE with me you certainly dont seem to want to leave it alone...

You should be thankful that I still am trying to show you out of your way of darkness...

Yeah....really thankful

 

[Cornelius]

I do think its funny that Francis is proving his own church wrong.

Paul used the c-word too although they translated it PC:

Php 3:8 Y......do count them but dung, ............

 

[francisdesales]

It is when a person claims that He was too inept to preserve His word...

Who said God was inept to preserve His Word??? Again, more smoke and mirrors.

1. You beg the question by ASSUMING a priori that the bible is the Word of God. Thus, He must preserve this book which, circularly, is the Word of God...
2. Perhaps God is preserving His Word elsewhere.
3. Internal evidence of the Christian bible does not tell us it is the Word of God.
4. How do we know, presuming that the NT is indeed God's Word, that it is complete? The argument "God preserves it" is pointless, because there was a time when the OT was the only thing He preserved. Does the complete NT claim for itself to complete God's revelation???

No, that is a Catholic claim that you unknowingly again take up.

no, this is a BIBLE issue. Im not allowing you to try to force me into a corner chap. God preserved His ENTIRE word, not just bits and pieces of it.

Begging the question yet again. What is God's ENTIRE word? Where does God tell us that the NT is part of the "Bible"???

And WHO decided that {Philemon} as far as religious groups go ?
Any idea ?

Of course. The Catholic Church. I have already stated my belief and trust in the Church. Your means of "proof" is a sad attempt to leave out the Church and rely on some fantasy self-accreditation.

When you can show that your church screwed it up then give me a ring.
Till then I trust that God preserved His word thru man.

Why don't you just say it!

You believe that the Bible is the Word of God because the Church said so...

You are getting there. Almost there. You are beginning to see the futile attempt to pretend that the Bible proves itself. You are beginning to realize that this is a circular argument and we must rely on the witness of others who put together a collection of writings and claim that they were from God.

Oh, sure, we can SAY that "God would preserve" His Word, but that begs the question that God even WROTE THE NT IN THE FIRST PLACE. There is no logical argument here. And God certainly CAN be preserving His Word, elsewhere in the Koran... Yours is no argument of substance, UNTIL you realize it must be an argument based upon the faith that men are truly being led by God.

I'm not the one trying to force everyone to remain on one point to escape the OBVIOUS facts.

Which obvious facts? That "the Bible is the Word of God because the Word of God is in the Bible" is circular and merely begs the question? A logical fallacy?

You need to talk to your own church leadership on this point, chap....THEY are the ones who decided what BELONGS and what doesnt...now arent they ;)

See how close you are to admitting it???

Are you ready to drop the circular argument and accept that the Bible is the Word of God based upon FAITH? You have come a long way and should be congratulated. Now, step into the light and call out by faith,

YES, the Church said the Bible is from God. I BELIEVE... :amen

 

[follower of Christ]

I have repeated this and repeat it again. Stop putting words in my mouth and start putting your money where your mouth is and show me how the NT proves itself to be the Word of God.

Im sorry but AGAIN I am NOT confining myself to the NT OR to Philemon.
God preserved His WHOLE word....not just pieces of it.
If GOD wanted Philemon there then its THERE because HE made it so....for the SAME reason His law is there.

Thus, your argument is circular. The bible is the Word of God because the Word of God is the Bible" - and all based upon the false concept that the NT speaks as a whole on its OWN, that it is self-authenticating...

Is this seeping through yet???

And it doesnt matter if fallible mans sense of logic is offended...*I* trust GOD, not the Jew whom God entrusted with His words....or the church whom He did also.
GOD preserves by His sovereign will.

Begging the question again. Mormons and Muslims can say the same thing about their "scriptures" and yet, you don't believe them to be the word of God... And these "scriptures" even CLAIM to be the Word of God!

EXACTLY !
So *IF* I were taking MANS word as TRUTH, then ALL of those others claiming inspiration of God would have to ALSO be accepted AS Gods word.
I believe because GOD confirms to me, not because of the catholic church whom I DONT follow in the least.

Sorry chap, you are sounding like a chimp.
You have not proven anything.

Denial of facts doesnt nullify them.

Prove to me how the various letters of Paul or John (IF they wrote them) tell us that they are unequivocally the Word of God!!!!

yes, we all realize that without 'This is GODs Word' in the opening sentence that you cant believe it but WE DO because WE trust that GOD brought His word together into a coherent whole.

Since it was claimed long ago that the Bible is the Word of God of its own accord and is the highest authority, this issue is VERY pertinent to the discussion - what IS the Bible, then?

Pick up a KJV. There you go.

From Scriptures alone, prove that the table of contents is complete and without error - the Word of God.

Again it is ABSURD to demand that EVERY letter Paul wrote must contain some specific phrase you are demanding of it.
No less than, AGAIN, demanding that a letter from my wife SAY 'Lauras words' or saying that it isnt from her.
God brought His word together into a coherent whole with the NEW testament JUST AS WITH the OLD testament.
THAT is what we trust and believe...GODs will in the matter was sovereign.

That is not in the New Testament, and this thread is addressed to Christians, not Jews.

And I dont care if it is or not, the principles are the same. GOD preserved His instruction and words to the JEWS and He has done so with His words to the CHURCH.

So you yet again have proven nothing regarding this thread,

Sorry but that you reject the details here is inconsequential.

. Now, how do we know that from Matthew onto Revelation is Scriptures?

Ask your church why they chose to put them in there. THEY considered them all inspired, apparently, so your argument is with them, not me.

Oh, yea, someone put those books and letters together, right?
WHO? And what makes you think they got them all correct?
Because the Church is the pillar and foundation of the truth???

Because JUST LIKE WITH THE IDOLATROUS JEWS whom God ENTRUSTED His word to for preservation, thus fulfilling HIS sovereign will...He AGAIN used SINFUL men to KEEP and PRESERVE His word for His church....not to hard to comprehend.

 

[francisdesales]

I do think its funny that Francis is proving his own church wrong.

Paul used the c-word too although they translated it PC:

Php 3:8 Y......do count them but dung, ............

Cornelius, how many times have I said that the Bible is the Word of God on this thread???

Is it possible that you are having problems reading my posts, or are you just spouting off stereotypes and libel that you have accumulated from God knows where?

I am not "proving" that the Church is wrong, but that YOUR means of knowing that the bible is the Word of God is a false reason. It is an illogical reason that relies on a circular argument. I have never said that the Catholic Church got it wrong, so try to read what I wrote.

 

[follower of Christ]

How do you know the Spirit of God tells or confirms ANYTHING to you? Becuase you said so?

Wow...VERY odd for a professing christian to ask such question.
I guess not even THIS is good enough for you then.

The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God.
(Rom 8:16 EMTV)

I suppose we all have to doubt that as well, right ?

 

[follower of Christ]

Jim Jones thought he heard God's voice, as well. Making self-righteous and subjective claims, while good for your already inflated ego, proves nothing objective ...

The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God.
(Rom 8:16 EMTV)

Jim Jones was a whacko who perverted Gods word to His own purposes...sound familiar ?

 

[Cornelius]

YES, the Church said the Bible is from God. I BELIEVE... :amen

No the Holy Spirit said that is the Bible God did not speak to those men because they were special. He spoke to those men, because He wanted the Bible to finally go out into the world.

And of course He also added the mathematical pattern to prove it.

God spoke to Balaam through a donkey.

 

[follower of Christ]

I do think its funny that Francis is proving his own church wrong.

Paul used the c-word too although they translated it PC:

Php 3:8 Y......do count them but dung, ............

Cornelius, how many times have I said that the Bible is the Word of God on this thread???

Is it possible that you are having problems reading my posts, or are you just spouting off stereotypes and libel that you have accumulated from God knows where?

I am not "proving" that the Church is wrong, but that YOUR means of knowing that the bible is the Word of God is a false reason. It is an illogical reason that relies on a circular argument. I have never said that the Catholic Church got it wrong, so try to read what I wrote.

But in order to QUESTION the validity of Philemon you MUST put your church also in question.
WE believe that GOD preserved the OLD testament THRU the hands of the idolatrous Jews who were hardhearted and disobedient and even BLINDED TO that word.
GODs sovereign WILL was accomplished REGARDLESS of mans stubbornness and sinfulness....and it is the SAME with the NEW testament.
WE Believe because GODS will is sovereign in the matter...NOT because the catholic church TELLS us who ARENT catholic what to believe.


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