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The age of accountability

Whatever

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Eph 2:3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb; They go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies.

I've heard a lot of people saying that children are innocent and are not sinners till they have the capacity to know right from wrong. But doesn't a 2 year old know he is deceiving his mother when she asks him if he ate a cookie and he lies and says no? If he doesn't know right from wrong, why does he have to deny he did it?

Also a 6 month old who will hit his sister when she grabs his toy? I can't imagine a 6 month old Jesus doing this.

Just wondering!
 
Many deny we are born with a sin nature and come into this world without sin.

Never understood how they came to that conclusion, because it is not Biblical.
 
Many deny we are born with a sin nature and come into this world without sin.

Never understood how they came to that conclusion, because it is not Biblical.
They come to that conclusion for the same reason they reject other Calvinist doctrine, they don't like it. It bruises their ego.
 
They come to that conclusion for the same reason they reject other Calvinist doctrine, they don't like it. It bruises their ego.
Indeed.

Pride is the root of all sin.
 
Hey all

How does a condition of innocence in a child reject the idea that we are born with a sinful nature? I always thought that idea of a child's innocence was perfectly inline with Calvinism.

Isaiah 7:16 For before the Child shall know to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land that you dread will be forsaken by both her kings.

Jeremiah 19:4 "Because they have forsaken Me and made this an alien place, because they have burned incense in it to other gods whom neither they, their fathers, nor the kings of Judah have known, and have filled this place with the blood of the innocents

Psalm 106:38 And shed innocent blood, The blood of their sons and daughters, Whom they sacrificed to the idols of Canaan; And the land was polluted with blood.

There are many more verses that speak of children as being innocent. Maybe the right question to ask is can a child knowingly and genuinely entrust their lives to Jesus Christ in faith? Think of what they must understand before they get to that commitment.

If you're interested.


 
Hey all

How does a condition of innocence in a child reject the idea that we are born with a sinful nature? I always thought that idea of a child's innocence was perfectly inline with Calvinism.

Isaiah 7:16 For before the Child shall know to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land that you dread will be forsaken by both her kings.

Jeremiah 19:4 "Because they have forsaken Me and made this an alien place, because they have burned incense in it to other gods whom neither they, their fathers, nor the kings of Judah have known, and have filled this place with the blood of the innocents

Psalm 106:38 And shed innocent blood, The blood of their sons and daughters, Whom they sacrificed to the idols of Canaan; And the land was polluted with blood.

There are many more verses that speak of children as being innocent. Maybe the right question to ask is can a child knowingly and genuinely entrust their lives to Jesus Christ in faith? Think of what they must understand before they get to that commitment.

If you're interested.


I do not think we are talking about babies, but I can be wrong.

MacArthur is correct on this subject.

God is sovereign and does as He pleases. If He wanted us to understand He would.

This is a brief article.

The view I embrace is that all those who die in infancy, as well as those so mentally incapacitated they’re incapable of making an informed choice, are among the elect of God, chosen for salvation before the world began. The evidence for this view is scant, but significant.


1. In Romans 1:20 Paul describes recipients of general revelation as being “without excuse.” They can’t blame their unbelief on a lack of evidence. There is sufficient revelation of God’s existence in the natural order to establish the moral accountability of all who witness it. Might this imply that those who are not recipients of general revelation (i.e., infants) are therefore not accountable to God or subject to wrath? In other words, wouldn’t those who die in infancy have an “excuse” in that they neither receive general revelation nor have the capacity to respond to it?


2. There are texts that assert or imply that infants don’t know good or evil and hence lack the capacity to make morally informed—and thus responsible—choices. According to Deuteronomy 1:39 they are said to “have no knowledge of good or evil.” This in itself, however, doesn’t prove infant salvation, for they may still be held liable for the sin of Adam.


3. We must take account of the story of David’s son in 2 Samuel 12:15–23 (especially verse 23). The firstborn child of David and Bathsheba is struck by the Lord and dies. In the seven days before his death, David fasts and prays, hoping that “the Lord may be gracious to me, that the child may live.” Yet following the child’s death, David washes, eats, and worships. Asked why he’s responding this way, David says, “Since he has died, why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he will not return to me” (v. 23).


What does it mean when David says “I shall go to him”? If this is merely a reference to the grave or death in the sense that David, too, shall one day die and be buried, one wonders why he’d say something so patently obvious. Also, it appears that David draws some measure of comfort from knowing that he will “go to him.” It’s the reason why David resumes the normal routine of life. It appears to be the reason he ceases from the display of grief. It appears to be a truth from which he derives comfort and encouragement. How could any of this be true if David will simply die like his son? It would, therefore, appear David believed he would be reunited with his deceased infant. Does this imply that at least this one particular infant was saved? Perhaps. But if so, are we justified in constructing a doctrine in which we affirm the salvation of all who die in infancy?


4. There is the consistent testimony of Scripture that people are judged on the basis of sins committed voluntary and consciously in the body (see 2 Cor. 5:10; 1 Cor. 6:9–10; Rev. 20:11–12). In other words, eternal judgment is always based on conscious rejection of divine revelation (whether in creation, conscience, or Christ) and willful disobedience. Are infants capable of either? There is no explicit account in Scripture of any other judgment based on any other grounds. Thus, those dying in infancy are saved because they do not (indeed cannot) satisfy the conditions for divine judgment.


5. Related to the above point, is what R. A. Webb states:


[If a deceased infant] were sent to hell on no other account than that of original sin, there would be a good reason to the divine mind for the judgment, but the child’s mind would be a perfect blank as to the reason of its suffering. Under such circumstances, it would know suffering, but it would have no understanding of the reason for its suffering. It could not tell its neighbor—it could not tell itself—why it was so awfully smitten; and consequently the whole meaning and significance of its sufferings, being to it a conscious enigma, the very essence of penalty would be absent, and justice would be disappointed of its vindication. Such an infant could feel that it was in hell, but it could not explain, to its own conscience, why it was there.


6. We have what would appear to be clear biblical evidence that at least some infants are regenerate in the womb, such that if they died in their infancy they would be saved. This provides at least a theoretical basis for considering whether the same may be true of all who die in infancy. As Ronald Nash points out, “If this sort of thing happens even once, it can certainly happen in other cases.” Supporting texts include Jeremiah 1:5 and Luke 1:15.


7. Some have appealed to Matthew 19:13–15 (also Mark 10:13–16; Luke 18:15–17) where Jesus declares, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.” Is he simply saying if one wishes to be saved one must be as trusting as a child (i.e., devoid of skepticism and arrogance)? In other words, is Jesus merely describing the kind of people who enter the kingdom? Or is he saying these very children were recipients of saving grace? If the latter were true, it would seem to imply Jesus knew that the children he was then receiving would all die in infancy. Is that credible?


8. Let me close with an argument that’s entirely subjective (and therefore of questionable evidential value). Given our understanding of God’s character as presented in Scripture, does he appear as the kind of God who would eternally condemn infants on no other ground than that of Adam’s transgression? Again, this is a subjective (and perhaps sentimental) question. But it deserves an answer, nonetheless.


I can only speak for myself, but I find the first, third, fourth, fifth, and eighth points sufficiently convincing. Therefore, I do believe in the salvation of those dying in infancy. I affirm their salvation, though, neither because they are innocent nor because they have merited forgiveness, but solely because God has sovereignly chosen them for eternal life, regenerated their souls, and applied the saving benefits of the blood of Christ to them apart from conscious faith.
 
Hey elected.

How would you account for all the scripture that speaks of children being innocent?

Dave
 
How does a condition of innocence in a child reject the idea that we are born with a sinful nature? I always thought that idea of a child's innocence was perfectly inline with Calvinism.
I always understood that the doctrine of "original sin" meant that we are born guilty of breaking God's covenant.
Original Sin teaches that all mankind is joined to Adam in both the guilt and the corruption of his first sin. All men and women are joined to Adam both by natural generation and by his covenantal headship. As a people who from our birth are corrupted by sin, we share in Adam’s guilt before God, a guilt imputed to us under the covenant of works.

I always figured all children of pagans who died in infancy or in the womb all went to Hell.

1Co 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband; otherwise your children would be unclean, but now they are holy.

If all children who die before some age of accountability go to heaven, it would be because they were never charged with sin and thus, do not need a savior. We would have 2 classes of people in heaven.
1. Those who never sinned
2. Those who sinned and are saved by Jesus' atonement.
Right now, I figure # 1 would probably be 10 times larger than #2.
 
Hey elected.

How would you account for all the scripture that speaks of children being innocent?

Dave
Are the verse talking about the age of accountability?

Isaiah7:16 “For before the boy will know to refuse evil and choose good, the land whose two kings you dread will be forsaken.

Macarthur
refuse the evil. Before the promised son of Isaiah was old enough to make moral choices, the kings of Syria and Ephraim were to meet their doom at the hands of the Assyrians.

John Gill
For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good,.... This may be understood of Isaiah's child, Shearjashub, he had along with him, he was bid to take with him; and who therefore must be supposed to bear some part, or answer some end or other, in this prophecy; which it is very probable may be this, viz. to assure Ahaz and the house of David that the land which was abhorred by them should be forsaken of both its kings, before the child that was with him was grown to years of discretion; though it may be understood of any child, and so of the Messiah; and the sense be, that before any child, or new born babe, such an one as is promised, Isa_7:14, arrives to years of discretion, even in the space of a few years, this remarkable deliverance should be wrought, and the Jews freed from all fears of being destroyed by these princes:

Spurgeon

For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.
This was the sign-manual. Judah could not be destroyed, for our Lord was to spring out of Judah; and this was the sign that Judah must stand, because Immanuel must be born of that nation, and the time for this great event was fixed by the Lord. Until a child is some few years of age, he does not distinguish between good and evil; but in a shorter time than it would take a child to come to years of responsibility, God meant to cut off both those kings, and he did so. This was a very wonderful prophecy, and ought to have filled Ahaz with great delight, and with confidence in God; but it did nothing of the kind.


Jeremiah 19:4 “Because they have forsaken Me and have made this a foreign place and have burned incense in it to other gods, that neither they nor their fathers nor the kings of Judah had ever known, and because they have filled this place with the blood of the innocent

John Gill
and have filled this place with the blood of innocents; young children that were sacrificed here to idols, as they were in the valley of Hinnom, which seems to be the place principally intended; so that they were not only guilty of idolatry, but of murder; and of the murder of innocent creatures, and even, of their own babes; which was shocking and unheard of cruelty!


Charles Ellicott
The blood of innocents.—The words seem at first to refer to the Molech sacrifices, which had made the valley of Hinnom infamous. These, however, are mentioned separately in the next verse, and the prophet probably spoke rather here, as in Jer_2:34; Jer_7:6, of the “innocent blood” with which Manasseh had filled Jerusalem (2Ki_21:16; 2Ki_24:4, where the same word is used).
 
I always thought that it was a condition of accountability, not age. Even though Jewish tradition teaches age thirteen. I don't see it in scripture.

I think that they/children can both have a sin nature, being completely separated from God, and do the actions that are sinful, but at the same time innocent due to ignorance. Maybe a better question to ask would be do they feel shame for what they did like Adam and Eve did when their eyes were opened to good and evil?

Dave
 
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I always thought that it was a condition of accountability, not age. Even though Jewish tradition teaches age thirteen. I don't see it in scripture.

I think that they/children can both have a sin nature, being completely separated from God, and do the actions that are sinful, but at the same time innocent due to ignorance. Maybe a better question to ask would be do they feel shame for what they did like Adam and Eve did when their eyes were opened to good and evil?

Dave
I understand where you are coming from.

I think that they/children can both have a sin nature, being completely separated from God, and do the actions that are sinful, but at the same time innocent due to ignorance.
I may agree with this to a point.

Maybe a better question to ask would be do they feel shame for what they did like Adam and Eve did when their eyes were opened to good and evil?
Adam responded from fear.

Genesis 3:10 And he said, “I heard the sound of You in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid.”
Adam did not respond with fear of getting caught but there was no confession.

In Genesis 3:12, Adam blamed his wife.

Perhaps Adam was afraid of punishment. we see this when a kid gets caught doing something wrong and is in fear of punishment because they got caught.

But that only tells me, that they knew they did wrong. Knowing right from wrong.

I may be over thinking things like I tend to do.

Very valid question @Dave...
 
Are the verse talking about the age of accountability?

Isaiah7:16 “For before the boy will know to refuse evil and choose good, the land whose two kings you dread will be forsaken.
But maybe only accountability to man. We don't put children in prison.

Deu 21:18 "If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and who, when they have chastened him, will not heed them, 19 then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city, to the gate of his city. 20 And they shall say to the elders of his city, 'This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.' 21 Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death with stones; so you shall put away the evil from among you, and all Israel shall hear and fear.

I don't think this is talking about toddlers. They are old enough to be drunkards and glutton. What we would call Juvenile Delinquents. All those running around in gangs. In some of our cities, they could be like 8 or 9 years old.

At the end of Romans 1, Paul gives a list of people who deserve death.
Rom 1:29
being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful. . .

Rom 1:32 . . .those who practice such things deserve to die . . .
 
But maybe only accountability to man. We don't put children in prison.

Deu 21:18 "If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and who, when they have chastened him, will not heed them, 19 then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city, to the gate of his city. 20 And they shall say to the elders of his city, 'This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.' 21 Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death with stones; so you shall put away the evil from among you, and all Israel shall hear and fear.

I don't think this is talking about toddlers. They are old enough to be drunkards and glutton. What we would call Juvenile Delinquents. All those running around in gangs. In some of our cities, they could be like 8 or 9 years old.

At the end of Romans 1, Paul gives a list of people who deserve death.
Rom 1:29
being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful. . .

Rom 1:32 . . .those who practice such things deserve to die . . .
Agreed.

I was just briefly looking at the word study on the word son.

It reminded me of this verse....

2 Kings 2:23 Then he went up from there to Bethel; and as he was going up by the way, young boys came out from the city and mocked him and said to him, “Go up, you baldhead; go up, you baldhead!”

Young boys in this verse are young men from a sermon I heard long ago.

I went off the rails, the mind gets going.

Apologies
 
How would you account for all the scripture that speaks of children being innocent?
I did a search for "innocent" through the English Standard Bible and the New King James and found a ton of verses with "innocent" in them and none of them had anything to do with children.
Almost all of them were about shedding innocent blood.

2Ki_21:16 Moreover Manasseh shed very much innocent blood, till he had filled Jerusalem from one end to another, besides his sin by which he made Judah sin, in doing evil in the sight of the LORD.

I don't think it is talking about Manasseh killing sinless people, but those who had not broken any laws.

Deu_27:25 'Cursed is the one who takes a bribe to slay an innocent person.' "And all the people shall say, 'Amen!'

It does several times talk about a child not being old enough to know right from wrong, but I asked somebody before, does a toddler who eats a cookie his mother told him not to eat and then lies and says no when his mother asks him, not know it was wrong to eat the cookie? If not, why the need to lie? You will say "to avoid being spanked." But doesn't this toddler know that he only gets spanked when he does something wrong?
 
2 Kings 2:23 Then he went up from there to Bethel; and as he was going up by the way, young boys came out from the city and mocked him and said to him, “Go up, you baldhead; go up, you baldhead!”
The word "young" means small; young; insignificant. I would see them as those gangs running around in our cities making trouble.

As I posted above, Rom 1:32 . . .those who practice such things deserve to die . . .

2 Kings 2:24 So he (Elisha) turned around and looked at them, and pronounced a curse on them in the name of the LORD. And two female bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths.

Heb 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God
 
Babies are selfish by nature. I don't mean sin nature. That's how they communicate right out of the gates. That's not sin. That carries over into childhood until they grow out of it. I don't think that they necessarily know that it's wrong. It's what they do to get what they want. They may know that by doing this or that will get them spanked, but still not know it's wrong, per say. Many times you'll see them imitating you when they want something. Telling you no, you can't have it etc. For them I still don't think that they know it's wrong. That's just how the world works in their minds.
 
I did a search for "innocent" through the English Standard Bible and the New King James and found a ton of verses with "innocent" in them and none of them had anything to do with children.
Almost all of them were about shedding innocent blood.

2Ki_21:16 Moreover Manasseh shed very much innocent blood, till he had filled Jerusalem from one end to another, besides his sin by which he made Judah sin, in doing evil in the sight of the LORD.

I don't think it is talking about Manasseh killing sinless people, but those who had not broken any laws.

Deu_27:25 'Cursed is the one who takes a bribe to slay an innocent person.' "And all the people shall say, 'Amen!'

It does several times talk about a child not being old enough to know right from wrong, but I asked somebody before, does a toddler who eats a cookie his mother told him not to eat and then lies and says no when his mother asks him, not know it was wrong to eat the cookie? If not, why the need to lie? You will say "to avoid being spanked." But doesn't this toddler know that he only gets spanked when he does something wrong?
I did a search for "innocent" through the English Standard Bible and the New King James and found a ton of verses with "innocent" in them and none of them had anything to do with children.
Almost all of them were about shedding innocent blood.

Thanks for pointing that out, I noticed it as well in the commentaries I have.
 
The word "young" means small; young; insignificant. I would see them as those gangs running around in our cities making trouble.

As I posted above, Rom 1:32 . . .those who practice such things deserve to die . . .

2 Kings 2:24 So he (Elisha) turned around and looked at them, and pronounced a curse on them in the name of the LORD. And two female bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths.

Heb 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God
That is exactly how the sermon was preached, "gangs" or troublemakers.

Pretty sure it was a Macarthur sermon.
 
Babies are selfish by nature. I don't mean sin nature. That's how they communicate right out of the gates. That's not sin. That carries over into childhood until they grow out of it. I don't think that they necessarily know that it's wrong. It's what they do to get what they want. They may know that by doing this or that will get them spanked, but still not know it's wrong, per say. Many times you'll see them imitating you when they want something. Telling you no, you can't have it etc. For them I still don't think that they know it's wrong. That's just how the world works in their minds.
But isn't selfishness sin?

I do not know, babies cry their head off when they do not get what they want. As they get older they get worse.

This is definitely the sin nature and not innocence.
 
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