The age of accountability

[Whatever]

Babies are selfish by nature. I don't mean sin nature. That's how they communicate right out of the gates. That's not sin. That carries over into childhood until they grow out of it. I don't think that they necessarily know that it's wrong. It's what they do to get what they want. They may know that by doing this or that will get them spanked, but still not know it's wrong, per say. Many times you'll see them imitating you when they want something. Telling you no, you can't have it etc. For them I still don't think that they know it's wrong. That's just how the world works in their minds.

This is what sin does to us. We think it is natural. "Oh, they are just sowing their wild oats." "Oh, boys will be boys."

Heb 3:13 But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.

 

[electedbyHim]

INNOCENCE, INNOCENT



To be innocent is to be free from guilt, blameless, clean or righteous. The quest for innocence is the central theme of the Scriptures. Such innocence was the original state of the human race, and the Bible records the quest of the soul to regain a state of righteousness before God. To be guiltless, blameless, pure, holy and innocent remains the deepest cry of the human soul.

Even though the specific word innocence does not appear in the text, the first picture—and perhaps the most enduring image—of innocence in the Bible is that of Adam and Eve as unfallen humans in a perfect garden (Gen 2). The aura of the story of life in Paradise is that of new beginnings, freshness, an unsmirched quality. The premise of the story is that Adam and Eve have not yet disobeyed and are therefore sinless. Specifically they are “innocent” of the experiential knowledge of evil, as attested by their not having eaten of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Gen 2:16). The image that symbolizes this innocence is that they “were both naked, and were not ashamed” (Gen 2:25 RSV).

While innocence in an absolute sense is not possible for fallen humans, it is possible in a relative sense, and the Bible accordingly speaks of innocent people in the sense of their being righteous or not deserving of some calamity that has befallen them. Martyrs, for example, are innocent—that is, undeserving of their murder—as in Jesus’ comment about “all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of innocent Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah” (Mt 23:35 RSV). In the book of Job, which revolves around the spectacle of the suffering of someone who has done nothing to deserve it, we find numerous references to good people as “innocent” or “blameless” (Job 1:1, 8, 22; 4:7; 17:8; 22:19, 30; 27:17). The psalms make a similar equation of morally righteous people with innocence (Ps 15:5; 19:13; 94:21), as does the book of Proverbs. Here, then, is a major image of innocence in the Bible—paragons of virtue whose righteous behavior exempts them from deserving the misfortunes that befall them in an oppressive world (see also Dan 6:22). The passages that employ this motif usually pit the innocents against oppressive antagonists in such a way as to evoke the picture of the archetypal innocent victim.

The innocence of virtuous people is connected in the Bible with the heart and the hands—the heart because innocence is an inner quality and the hands because the washing of hands is an archetype of being clean. Abimelech protests that his sin of ignorance was undertaken “in the integrity of my heart and the innocence of my hands” (Gen 20:5). The speaker in Psalm 73:13 protests, “All in vain have I kept my heart clean and washed my hands in innocence” (RSV; cf. Ps 26:6). Job 22:30 pictures God as delivering “the innocent man” through the cleanness of his hands. Pilate washed his hands in a false innocence when he delivered Jesus to the Jews (Mt 27:24). The innocence for which David longs in Psalm 51:10 is pictured in the imagery of a clean heart.

Occasionally innocence in the Bible is the ignorance of people who do something wrong in unawareness rather than in conscious sin. Thus Abimelech responds to the dream that God sent him: “Lord, wilt thou slay an innocent people?” (Gen 20:4 RSV), meaning that he had taken Sarah into his harem in ignorance of the fact that she was a married woman. In a variation on that theme the NT twice pairs wisdom and innocence, with innocence having connotations of being exempt or ignorant of deviousness or evil: Jesus instructed his disciples to “be wise as serpents and innocent as doves” (Mt 10:16 RSV), and Paul wanted the Christians at Rome “to be wise about what is good, and innocent about what is evil” (Rom 16:19 NIV).

The most numerous category of references to innocence in the Bible centers on the shedding of “innocent blood.” There are nearly two dozen instances of the idiom, which refers to the murder of people who did not deserve this fate. The innocence in view is of course not absolute, yet the choice of the terminology of innocence highlights the heinous nature of murder.

The supreme example of innocence in the Bible is, of course, Jesus. When the centurion at the crucifixion “saw what had taken place, he praised God, and said, ‘Certainly this man was innocent!’” (Lk 23:47 RSV). The testimony of Scripture is that Jesus “committed no sin” (1 Pet 2:22) and that he was “without sin” (Heb 4:15). Pilate found “no basis for a charge against this man” (Lk 23:4 NIV), finally declaring that “this man has done nothing wrong” (Lk 23:41 NIV). Jesus himself asked at one point, “Which of you convicts me of sin?” (Jn 8:46).

The innocent Jesus remains the model that his followers aspire to emulate. Paul prays that the Philippian Christians “may be pure and blameless for the day of Christ, filled with the fruits of righteousness that comes through Jesus Christ” (Phil 1:10–11 NIV). He is confident regarding the Corinthian Christians that Christ “will sustain you to the end, guiltless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ” (1 Cor 1:8 RSV). To the Thessalonians, Paul expresses the prayer that God “may establish your hearts unblamable in holiness” (1 Thess 3:13 RSV). He enjoins the Philippians to “be blameless and innocent, children of God without blemish ” (Phil 2:15 RSV). The possibility of being “blameless” or “without spot” in Christ is repeatedly held out as a possibility (Eph 1:2–4; 5:27; Col 1:22; 2 Pet 3:14; Jude 24).

^[1]

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RSV RSV. Revised Standard Version
cf. cf.. compare
NT NT. New Testament
NIV NIV. New International Version
^[1]Ryken, L., Wilhoit, J., Longman, T., Duriez, C., Penney, D., & Reid, D. G. (2000, c1998). Dictionary of biblical imagery (electronic ed.) (425). Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press.

 

[hawkman]

Babies are selfish by nature. I don't mean sin nature. That's how they communicate right out of the gates. That's not sin.

Sinful right out of the womb is what the sin nature proponents say . You don't agree with them ?

But isn't selfishness sin?

I do not know, babies cry their head off when they do not get what they want.

Babies cry their head off if they are in pain or discomfort as in a wet diaper . If babies did not cry the species would cease to exist , IMO .
Babies have NEEDS that must be attended to , crying is their only form of communication until they talk .
Sinful babies , not hardly !

This is definitely the sin nature and not innocence.

Oh Augustine ! See what you have done !

Also a 6 month old who will hit his sister when she grabs his toy? I can't imagine a 6 month old Jesus doing this.

Also , Jesus had an older sister ! ? ! You will have to imagine that first

 

[electedbyHim]

Sinful right out of the womb is what the sin nature proponents say . You don't agree with them ?

Babies cry their head off if they are in pain or discomfort as in a wet diaper . If babies did not cry the species would cease to exist , IMO .
Babies have NEEDS that must be attended to , crying is their only form of communication until they talk .
Sinful babies , not hardly !

Oh Augustine ! See what you have done !

Also , Jesus had an older sister ! ? ! You will have to imagine that first

But, what have you proven in this reply?

Show from the Bible that humans are born without sin.

You cannot so this.

 

[hawkman]

But, what have you proven in this reply?

Show from the Bible that humans are born without sin.

You cannot so this.

Where is the sin in the baby ? No one has been able to tell me . Who put the sin in the baby ? When was the sin put in the baby ? You can not tell me where the sin is in the baby .

 

[electedbyHim]

Where is the sin in the baby ? No one has been able to tell me . Who put the sin in the baby ? When was the sin put in the baby ? You can not tell me where the sin is in the baby .

Psalms 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb; These who speak falsehood wander in error from birth.

 

[Whatever]

Psalms 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb; These who speak falsehood wander in error from birth.

I'll add a few more.

Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Gen 8:21 And the LORD smelled a soothing aroma. Then the LORD said in His heart, "I will never again curse the ground for man's sake, although the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth. . .

 

[Whatever]

The theory of the age of accountability is especially used by liberal lawmakers and judges.

In 2023, Sweden's Social Democratic party passed a new law that made it illegal to arrest, detain, or prosecute a child under 15 for any crime. It also erased all criminal punishments for children.
This applies to every single imaginable crime.

Swedish gangs immediately took advantage of the new law.​

Like Fagin in Oliver Twist, they've started recruiting children into their gangs with renewed enthusiasm.
One of the more alarming stories is that some of the children have become contract killers and are carrying out hits all over the country.

Here is a 2 minute and 40 second video on YouTube:

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Many deny we are born with a sin nature and come into this world without sin.

Never understood how they came to that conclusion, because it is not Biblical.

We should not confuse Adam and Eve's nakeditity with that of being sinful. You become a sinner when you sin. And you become accountable for that sin when you understand the difference between right and wrong and can respond accordingly, in knowledge. And you die when you choose to sin after becoming accountable for that sin. I died somewhere in the 9th grade.

Romans 7:9-11
9Once I was alive (but unclothed) apart from the law; but when the commandment came ('do not eat'), sin sprang to life (I ate) and I died. 10So I discovered that the very commandment that was meant to bring life actually brought death. 11For sin, seizing its opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through the commandment put me to death.

Every human being plays out the account of Adam and Eve.

 

[electedbyHim]

We should not confuse Adam and Eve's nakeditity with that of being sinful. You become a sinner when you sin. And you become accountable for that sin when you understand the difference between right and wrong and can respond accordingly, in knowledge. And you die when you choose to sin after becoming accountable for that sin. I died somewhere in the 9th grade.

Romans 7:9-11
9Once I was alive (but unclothed) apart from the law; but when the commandment came ('do not eat'), sin sprang to life (I ate) and I died. 10So I discovered that the very commandment that was meant to bring life actually brought death. 11For sin, seizing its opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through the commandment put me to death.

Every human being plays out the account of Adam and Eve.

But were they not perfect and not ashamed of their nakedness before their eyes wer opened?

Gen 3:7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loin coverings.
Gen 3:8 They heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden.
Gen 3:9 Then the LORD God called to the man, and said to him, "Where are you?"
Gen 3:10 He said, "I heard the sound of You in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid myself."
Gen 3:11 And He said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?"
Gen 3:12 The man said, "The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me from the tree, and I ate."

Does verse 7 assume they were now sinners?

 

[Dave...]

So you believe Jesus was also selfish right out of the gate?

Yes. I believe that Jesus in His incarnation also went through an innocent stage due to ignorance as a baby growing into childhood. As a baby, If He was hungry, He cried. If He needed diapers changed, or what ever they used back then, He cried. Technically, you could say that is selfish, but that's how babies communicate. That's all they know how to do. I don't believe a baby crying because they are hungry is sin. As a child growing older, some of that carries over. You see a young child crying in a store because they want something. That's what they have done their whole life. That's all they know. They will eventually grow out of that. Is it selfish? yes. Is it sin? I don't think so. Is being selfish the same for a young child as it is for an adult? I don't think it is. Children need to be given a grace period to grow out of that. I believe that God gives them that grace period. That grace period is allowed by that child's ignorance.

Either Jesus never cried as a baby, or that selfishness as a baby is not sin.

We can learn about all this by looking at Adam and Eve. Similar, but different. It was ignorance that kept them innocent. They had no laws but one. If they had many laws they would have sinned much faster. It was simplified, but they still failed. They were capable of sinning all along because they did. It was the ignorance that kept them innocent. When they did sin, the knowledge of good and evil followed instantly, then came shame. They covered themselves with leaves. The innocence was clearly gone because of the knowledge of good and evil. This parallels children.

If someone is elect, they can die as a child in this state of innocence, or grow to adulthood and come to faith. As a elect person who has reached the condition of accountability, they won't die before they come to faith in Jesus. If someone is not elect, they won't die in this state of innocence. They will grow and reach that condition of accountability as an unbeliever. This idea of innocence due to ignorance does not take away from God's sovereign plan from the foundations of the world. Hope this helps. I'm going to read the rest of this thread now and see what's there.

 

[Whatever]

Either Jesus never cried as a baby, or that selfishness as a baby is not sin.

I don't see crying as a baby as selfish. It is communicating. What is sinful is throwing a tantrum.

 

[Dave...]

I don't see crying as a baby as selfish. It is communicating. What is sinful is throwing a tantrum.

Babies would throw a tantrum if they could, no?

 

[Whatever]

You see a young child crying in a store because they want something.

That is covetousness.
Colossians 3:5 Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.

So you are proving that a 3 year old can be an idolater.

Romans 1:29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness . . .
Romans 1:32 . . . those who practice such things deserve to die

 

[Dave...]

That is covetousness.
Colossians 3:5 Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.

So you are proving that a 3 year old can be an idolater.

Romans 1:29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness . . .
Romans 1:32 . . . those who practice such things deserve to die

Only after a naked Adam and Eve had the knowledge of good and evil was their nakedness sin.

 

[Whatever]

Babies would throw a tantrum if they could, no?

Yes, human babies born under the curse and with a sinful nature. The problem is that we cannot imagine any other kind of babies.
So since "normal" fallen babies throw tantrums, you think Jesus must have too.

 

[Dave...]

When can a child come to a saving faith in Jesus Christ? When does it become possible?

Also think of all that they would need to recognize in themselves to get to that point.

 

[Free]

Eph 2:3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb; They go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies.

I've heard a lot of people saying that children are innocent and are not sinners till they have the capacity to know right from wrong. But doesn't a 2 year old know he is deceiving his mother when she asks him if he ate a cookie and he lies and says no? If he doesn't know right from wrong, why does he have to deny he did it?

Also a 6 month old who will hit his sister when she grabs his toy? I can't imagine a 6 month old Jesus doing this.

Just wondering!

Perhaps verses such as these are relevant:

Rom 7:7 What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. For I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.”
Rom 7:8 But sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. For apart from the law, sin lies dead. (ESV)

That is, even though infants and young toddlers sin, if they don’t know it is morally wrong and unless they have knowledge of what sin is and its consequences, can they be held accountable for their sin?

 

[Free]

Only after a naked Adam and Eve had the knowledge of good and evil was their nakedness sin.

But, was it sin? How could it be if they were husband and wife? It would mean that it would be sinful for all husbands and wives to be naked when alone together.

 

[Whatever]

Only after a naked Adam and Eve had the knowledge of good and evil was their nakedness sin.

First of all, it says nothing about their nakedness being sinful.

That is, even though infants and young toddlers sin, if they don’t know it is morally wrong and unless they have knowledge of what sin is and its consequences, can they be held accountable for their sin?

If God says they are then they are. I'm not sure He does. But like I said before, if they are not accountable, then there will be maybe 10 times more "not accountable" people in Heaven that those saved by the blood of Jesus.
Jesus will be their lord, but not their savior. They didn't need saving.