I have a question for those that take the APOSTASIA in 2 Thes 2.3 as an apostasy, rebellion, or a falling away. Paul tells them that they know they are not in the Day of the Lord because the APOSTASIA hasn't happened. But, how would a believer know what THE APOSTASIA looks like. A general religious apostasy is something that develops over time, not a specific event. How will we know when we see this APOSTASIA?
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The APOSTASIA in 2 Thes 2.3
- Thread starter MisterE
- Start date
There are at least three interpretations of "the apostasy":
(1) A falling away from the faith by professed believers, to such a degree that it is a definitely recognizable event.
(2) An apostasy associated with the Antichrist which would be a definitely recognizable event.
(3) Not a falling away from religion but a departure from the earth, i.e., the Rapture.
Note: David Dean actually lists 4 ways the apostasy has been interpreted - "What is meant by the apostasia and the “revealing of the man of lawlessness”? The term apostasia has generally been understood in one of four ways. (1) An appositive that refers to the man of lawlessness himself. (In this view only one event is in view: the “revealing of the man of lawlessness.” [Ed: View held by John MacArthur]) (2) A “falling away” from the truth, either by the professing Christian church rejecting the historic Christian faith or Jews rejecting the God of their fathers or non-Christians denying any claims of a superior being and instead proclaiming their own absolute supremacy. A wide range of termini a quo for these hypotheses is possible, reaching even before the opening of the seventieth week [Ed: Daniel's Seventieth Week]. (3) An active rebellion against God and the accompanying growth of ungodliness in the world at large. (4) The physical departure of the church in the rapture [Ed: See Thomas Ice below]. (Does 2 Thessalonians 2-1-3 Exclude The Pretribulational Rapture?)
Thomas Constable favors interpretation #1 writing that "Such a (religious) departure had begun in Paul's day (1Ti 4:1-3; 2Ti 4:3-4; Jas 5:1-8; 2Pe 2:1-3ff; 2Pe 3:3-6; Jude 1:1-25). However it had not yet reached the proportions predicted to characterize "the apostasy" about which Paul had instructed his readers when he was with them… When the Rapture (Ed: Referring to a Pre-Tribulation Rapture) takes place and all true Christians leave the earth, this apostasy will overwhelm the human race." (Expository Notes) (Constable also authored the commentary on Second Thessalonians in the Bible Knowledge Commentary).
Hiebert favors interpretation #1 - The crucial Day of the Lord will not come "until the rebellion occurs, and the man of lawlessness is revealed." Paul is thinking of two distinct although related events. The two designations do not refer to "a single phenomenon" as Moffatt suggests (Ed: This seems to be the interpretation MacArthur favors - see below). The two verbs, emphatic by position, serve to distinguish the events. The man of lawlessness is not the personal embodiment of the rebellion, nor is he simply the personal culmination of the apostasy. Although the two events are clearly related as expressions of enmity towards God, they are yet distinct. The rebellion, or apostasy, indicates a tragic movement within the sphere of professed Christendom, the treason of the avowed friends of Christ, whereas the public manifestation of the man of lawlessness in the arena of history marks the personal culmination of the hostility of the avowed enemies of Christ." (Ed: But see discussion below where Dr John MacArthur links the apostasy with the man of lawlessness, stating that the ultimate apostasy is when he carries out the "Abomination of Desolation" described by Jesus in Mt 24:15-note)… A common view (of "the apostasy") is that the reference is to "the apostasy of Christians from their faith to error and unrighteousness." Since the context clearly associates this apostasy with the time of Christ's second coming, the reference portrays the end time apostasy within Christendom. Then "conditions will be ripe for people, especially those who call themselves Christians but are not really such, to turn their backs on God in what they do as well as in what they already have in thought." In this scene of apostasy, some would also include, or restrict it to, the Jews at the beginning of the Great Tribulation who will turn from God's truth to worship the Antichrist. Whatever the precise identity of these apostates, "this worldwide anti-God movement will be so universal as to earn for itself a special designation: 'the apostasy'—i.e., the climax of the increasing apostate tendencies evident before the rapture of the church." (1 & 2 Thessalonians- D. Edmond Hiebert)
John MacArthur - Paul’s use of the definite article (ED: "the" in the Greek phrase "te ["the"] apostasia") reveals that he had in mind not a general flow or trend, but a specific, identifiable act of apostasy. The apostasy will be a blasphemous act of unprecedented magnitude. (ED: From what he says in the next sentence, MacArthur seems to be referring to the Abomination of Desolation standing in the Holy Place - which marks the midpoint of the Seven Year Tribulation [Daniel's Seventieth Week] - see notes on Mt 24:15) The apostle identified the apostasy by naming the key character connected with it: the man of lawlessness. Understanding who that key person is is a prerequisite to identifying the apostasy event. (1 & 2 Thessalonians Commentary)
Notice that if MacArthur's interpretation is correct, then the Antichrist's taking of his seat in the Temple (2Th 2:4+, Mt 24:15+) would seem to mark the beginning of the Day of the Lord and also the beginning of the last 3.5 year Great Tribulation.
Interpretation #3 is discussed below.
Comes first - First is the Greek proton which means first in time, order, place, rank, importance. In the present context it is reasonable to interpret proton as referring to that which is first in time or order. In other words, first "the apostasy" will occur, then the "man of lawlessness" is revealed, then the Day of the Lord.
John MacArthur notes that Paul "did not tell his readers that they would live to experience the apostasy and the unveiling of the man of lawlessness. Paul’s point was merely that the apostasy will precede the Day of the Lord. And since the apostasy has not yet taken place, the Day of the Lord could not have arrived." (1 & 2 Thessalonians Commentary)
Various translations of apostasy - falling away = KJV, NKJV; apostasy = NASB, Weymouth; revolt = Williams, JB; rebellion = Moffat, NEB, LB, RSV, NIV; rejection = Phillips.
Apostasy (646)(apostasia from aphistemi = depart derived from apo = separation + histemi = to stand) is a noun which literally describes a "stand off" (or "a standing off") and thus is a departure, a defection or falling away. In English apostasy means the abandonment or renunciation of a religious or political belief. The only other NT use of apostasia is where Paul was accused of "teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake (apostasia) Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs." In the Septuagint (Lxx) apostasia is used in Joshua 22:22 (describes "an unfaithful act [apostasia] against the LORD"), 2Chr 29:19 (describes King Ahaz during "during his reign in his unfaithfulness [apostasia]") and Jer 2:19 ("Your [God speaking to unfaithful Judah] own wickedness will correct you, and your apostasies will reprove you").
Preceptaustin.org
(1) A falling away from the faith by professed believers, to such a degree that it is a definitely recognizable event.
(2) An apostasy associated with the Antichrist which would be a definitely recognizable event.
(3) Not a falling away from religion but a departure from the earth, i.e., the Rapture.
Note: David Dean actually lists 4 ways the apostasy has been interpreted - "What is meant by the apostasia and the “revealing of the man of lawlessness”? The term apostasia has generally been understood in one of four ways. (1) An appositive that refers to the man of lawlessness himself. (In this view only one event is in view: the “revealing of the man of lawlessness.” [Ed: View held by John MacArthur]) (2) A “falling away” from the truth, either by the professing Christian church rejecting the historic Christian faith or Jews rejecting the God of their fathers or non-Christians denying any claims of a superior being and instead proclaiming their own absolute supremacy. A wide range of termini a quo for these hypotheses is possible, reaching even before the opening of the seventieth week [Ed: Daniel's Seventieth Week]. (3) An active rebellion against God and the accompanying growth of ungodliness in the world at large. (4) The physical departure of the church in the rapture [Ed: See Thomas Ice below]. (Does 2 Thessalonians 2-1-3 Exclude The Pretribulational Rapture?)
INTERPRETATION #1
Thomas Constable favors interpretation #1 writing that "Such a (religious) departure had begun in Paul's day (1Ti 4:1-3; 2Ti 4:3-4; Jas 5:1-8; 2Pe 2:1-3ff; 2Pe 3:3-6; Jude 1:1-25). However it had not yet reached the proportions predicted to characterize "the apostasy" about which Paul had instructed his readers when he was with them… When the Rapture (Ed: Referring to a Pre-Tribulation Rapture) takes place and all true Christians leave the earth, this apostasy will overwhelm the human race." (Expository Notes) (Constable also authored the commentary on Second Thessalonians in the Bible Knowledge Commentary).
Hiebert favors interpretation #1 - The crucial Day of the Lord will not come "until the rebellion occurs, and the man of lawlessness is revealed." Paul is thinking of two distinct although related events. The two designations do not refer to "a single phenomenon" as Moffatt suggests (Ed: This seems to be the interpretation MacArthur favors - see below). The two verbs, emphatic by position, serve to distinguish the events. The man of lawlessness is not the personal embodiment of the rebellion, nor is he simply the personal culmination of the apostasy. Although the two events are clearly related as expressions of enmity towards God, they are yet distinct. The rebellion, or apostasy, indicates a tragic movement within the sphere of professed Christendom, the treason of the avowed friends of Christ, whereas the public manifestation of the man of lawlessness in the arena of history marks the personal culmination of the hostility of the avowed enemies of Christ." (Ed: But see discussion below where Dr John MacArthur links the apostasy with the man of lawlessness, stating that the ultimate apostasy is when he carries out the "Abomination of Desolation" described by Jesus in Mt 24:15-note)… A common view (of "the apostasy") is that the reference is to "the apostasy of Christians from their faith to error and unrighteousness." Since the context clearly associates this apostasy with the time of Christ's second coming, the reference portrays the end time apostasy within Christendom. Then "conditions will be ripe for people, especially those who call themselves Christians but are not really such, to turn their backs on God in what they do as well as in what they already have in thought." In this scene of apostasy, some would also include, or restrict it to, the Jews at the beginning of the Great Tribulation who will turn from God's truth to worship the Antichrist. Whatever the precise identity of these apostates, "this worldwide anti-God movement will be so universal as to earn for itself a special designation: 'the apostasy'—i.e., the climax of the increasing apostate tendencies evident before the rapture of the church." (1 & 2 Thessalonians- D. Edmond Hiebert)
INTERPRETATION #2
John MacArthur - Paul’s use of the definite article (ED: "the" in the Greek phrase "te ["the"] apostasia") reveals that he had in mind not a general flow or trend, but a specific, identifiable act of apostasy. The apostasy will be a blasphemous act of unprecedented magnitude. (ED: From what he says in the next sentence, MacArthur seems to be referring to the Abomination of Desolation standing in the Holy Place - which marks the midpoint of the Seven Year Tribulation [Daniel's Seventieth Week] - see notes on Mt 24:15) The apostle identified the apostasy by naming the key character connected with it: the man of lawlessness. Understanding who that key person is is a prerequisite to identifying the apostasy event. (1 & 2 Thessalonians Commentary)
Notice that if MacArthur's interpretation is correct, then the Antichrist's taking of his seat in the Temple (2Th 2:4+, Mt 24:15+) would seem to mark the beginning of the Day of the Lord and also the beginning of the last 3.5 year Great Tribulation.
INTERPRETATION #3
Interpretation #3 is discussed below.
Comes first - First is the Greek proton which means first in time, order, place, rank, importance. In the present context it is reasonable to interpret proton as referring to that which is first in time or order. In other words, first "the apostasy" will occur, then the "man of lawlessness" is revealed, then the Day of the Lord.
John MacArthur notes that Paul "did not tell his readers that they would live to experience the apostasy and the unveiling of the man of lawlessness. Paul’s point was merely that the apostasy will precede the Day of the Lord. And since the apostasy has not yet taken place, the Day of the Lord could not have arrived." (1 & 2 Thessalonians Commentary)
Various translations of apostasy - falling away = KJV, NKJV; apostasy = NASB, Weymouth; revolt = Williams, JB; rebellion = Moffat, NEB, LB, RSV, NIV; rejection = Phillips.
Apostasy (646)(apostasia from aphistemi = depart derived from apo = separation + histemi = to stand) is a noun which literally describes a "stand off" (or "a standing off") and thus is a departure, a defection or falling away. In English apostasy means the abandonment or renunciation of a religious or political belief. The only other NT use of apostasia is where Paul was accused of "teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake (apostasia) Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs." In the Septuagint (Lxx) apostasia is used in Joshua 22:22 (describes "an unfaithful act [apostasia] against the LORD"), 2Chr 29:19 (describes King Ahaz during "during his reign in his unfaithfulness [apostasia]") and Jer 2:19 ("Your [God speaking to unfaithful Judah] own wickedness will correct you, and your apostasies will reprove you").
Preceptaustin.org
Thank you for such a thorough reply. I read it all and appreciate the explanation of the positions. I guess I still lean toward pre-trib because to me the APOSTASIA is an event, not a process. And, because unless I am mistaken, the subject listed in vs 1 is our gathering together with Christ. Thanks again for taking the time to replay.
Although I did not write the article, I agree with your position on pre-trib as an event.
Many will be along soon to correct this position.
Grace and peace to you.
I trace Paul's thought to Dan 7, where the Man of Sin is viewed as "boasting against God." In Daniel, a dominant theme is Antiochus' 4's attempt to corrupt Israel's worship of the one true God. And this is sort of conflated with the Man of Sin in ch. 7.
So the Antichrist rebels against God by trying to boast over God, claiming to be God in His place among the former People of God. As Antiochus corrupted the temple worship, Antichrist takes his seat in God's Temple, perhaps a heavenly temple, to declare himself Deity, or possessing Divine powers.
There is *no way* apostasia here refers to a Pretrib Rapture. That would be absurd because the exact opposite is being said. We're told not to believe false claims of the Kingdom of Christ exist on earth through various cults because Christ will only return *from heaven* to destroy the Antichrist, just as Jesus told his Disciples in the Olivet Discourse.
Well you see I told you we might have some disagreements,,
'Yes you are spot on about Antiochus, very important figure in Daniel's prophesies.
PAST events = not future, HOWEVER Antiochus can be seen as TYPE or FIGURE of such antichrists, Hitler Stalin, countless others throughout history.
I also disagree with pre tribulation rapture. The rapture idea is distorted, Yes Yeshua does say 1 taken 1 left **BEHIND,
but no such thing as group flying away meeting Yeshua on the clouds.
But a falling away, INDEED, This is no doctrine, no dogma, It is reality. Has been going on and will continue.
Has nothing to so with NOT going to a church building, well actually does have something to do with Sunday groupings. But I refrain and take the code of silence
Does Paul really describe a "rapture"? That seems to be the question of many skeptics and scoffers. They argue that the word "rapture" is no where to be found in Scripture. In addressing their argument, it behooves us to keep in mind that the Latin Vulgate was the primary Bible translation utilized for one thousand years preceding the Reformation. In short, the Latin Vulgate "reigned" as the primary Bible translation longer than any other translation. In the Latin Vulgate the Greek word harpazo was translated "rapiemur" which is clearly related to our English terms "Rapture" or "raptured". So those detractors who argue that the term Rapture does not appear in the Bible are only expressing their ignorance and are obviously unaware of the prominence of the Latin Vulgate translation in church history. Setting aside the argument that the word rapture (which is true) is not found in modern translations, the more important question is what does the original Greek word harpazo actually mean? Clearly it is a verb in the original Greek and verbs generally convey action. What is the picture conveyed by harpazo? (Gillian Welch & David Rawlings - I'll Fly Away)
Shall Be Caught up (726) (harpazo from haireô = take, in NT only in middle voice = haireomai = to take for oneself, to choose; akin to airo = to raise up) means to snatch up or way, to seize or seize upon, to steal (see comparison to klepto below), to catch away or up, to pluck, to pull.
Harpazo means to take suddenly and vehemently, often with violence and speed or quickly and without warning. The idea is to take by force with a sudden swoop and usually indicates a force which cannot be resisted. In eschatological terms (future events, prophetically related) as in the present verse, harpazo refers to what is often known as the "rapture" (Latin = raptura = seizing or Latin = rapio = seize, snatch)
Harpazo thus can be translated by the verb to rapture which describes the act of conveying or transporting a person from one place to another or from one sphere of existence to another. The English word rapture can also convey the idea of ecstasy as with one who is "carried out of" oneself with joy, but that is not the primary sense conveyed by the NT usage here in 1 Thessalonians.
Harpazo is future passive (so called "divine passive" in this context - the action is exerted by outside divine force) indicative (this is the mood of certainty which describes a real event, stating that this is a future fact which we can count on!) first person plural (implying in context not just individuals but many individuals, specifically the true church composed of all the believers of the church age).
The picture of individuals being snatched up and away is seen in four NT uses (see the verses below)…
The related word harpage (724) refers to robbery, plunder or seizing of one's possessions (Mt 23:25 = describing scribes and Pharisees who were "full of robbery" {greediness}, Lk 11:39, Heb 10:34). The adjective harpax (727) is used 6 times in the NT (Mt 7:15 = "ravenous {rapacious} wolves"; Lk 18:11 = "swindlers", "extortionists", "embezzlers"; 1Cor 5:10; 5:11; 6:10 = same meaning as in Lk 18:11)
The uses of harpazo in the Gospels refer to robbery or the unlawful snatching away of something or someone (see below - Jn 10:12, 28, 29; Mt 11:12; 12:29; 13:19).
Harpazo was used of rescuing one from a situation of threatening danger as in "snatching them out of the fire" (see Jude 1:23 below)
Harpazo in secular Greek was used to describe the action of a wolf which entered a flock of sheep and suddenly snatched up (harpazo) a lamb. (see John 10:12 below)
Moulton and Milligan note that harpazo was often found in secular Greek in petitions complaining of robbery.
Harpazo as noted can convey the sense of "to steal" but it differs from another Greek word klepto (English = kleptomania {from kleptes = thief} refers to a strong impulse to steal) referring to stealing secretly or with stealth whereas harpazo denotes robbing with a more violent action.
Harpazo is also used to mean forcibly to seize upon, snatch away, or take to oneself (see below Mt 11:12, John 6:15, Acts 23:10)
Harpazo is used 13 times in the NT.
Preceptaustin.org
Shall Be Caught up (726) (harpazo from haireô = take, in NT only in middle voice = haireomai = to take for oneself, to choose; akin to airo = to raise up) means to snatch up or way, to seize or seize upon, to steal (see comparison to klepto below), to catch away or up, to pluck, to pull.
Harpazo means to take suddenly and vehemently, often with violence and speed or quickly and without warning. The idea is to take by force with a sudden swoop and usually indicates a force which cannot be resisted. In eschatological terms (future events, prophetically related) as in the present verse, harpazo refers to what is often known as the "rapture" (Latin = raptura = seizing or Latin = rapio = seize, snatch)
Harpazo thus can be translated by the verb to rapture which describes the act of conveying or transporting a person from one place to another or from one sphere of existence to another. The English word rapture can also convey the idea of ecstasy as with one who is "carried out of" oneself with joy, but that is not the primary sense conveyed by the NT usage here in 1 Thessalonians.
Harpazo is future passive (so called "divine passive" in this context - the action is exerted by outside divine force) indicative (this is the mood of certainty which describes a real event, stating that this is a future fact which we can count on!) first person plural (implying in context not just individuals but many individuals, specifically the true church composed of all the believers of the church age).
The picture of individuals being snatched up and away is seen in four NT uses (see the verses below)…
Harpazo conveys the idea of force suddenly exercised, and also well rendered by the English verb to snatch (to seize, take or grasp something {someone} abruptly or hastily with emphasis on the idea of suddenness or quickness)
The related word harpage (724) refers to robbery, plunder or seizing of one's possessions (Mt 23:25 = describing scribes and Pharisees who were "full of robbery" {greediness}, Lk 11:39, Heb 10:34). The adjective harpax (727) is used 6 times in the NT (Mt 7:15 = "ravenous {rapacious} wolves"; Lk 18:11 = "swindlers", "extortionists", "embezzlers"; 1Cor 5:10; 5:11; 6:10 = same meaning as in Lk 18:11)
The uses of harpazo in the Gospels refer to robbery or the unlawful snatching away of something or someone (see below - Jn 10:12, 28, 29; Mt 11:12; 12:29; 13:19).
Harpazo was used of rescuing one from a situation of threatening danger as in "snatching them out of the fire" (see Jude 1:23 below)
Harpazo in secular Greek was used to describe the action of a wolf which entered a flock of sheep and suddenly snatched up (harpazo) a lamb. (see John 10:12 below)
Moulton and Milligan note that harpazo was often found in secular Greek in petitions complaining of robbery.
Harpazo as noted can convey the sense of "to steal" but it differs from another Greek word klepto (English = kleptomania {from kleptes = thief} refers to a strong impulse to steal) referring to stealing secretly or with stealth whereas harpazo denotes robbing with a more violent action.
Harpazo is also used to mean forcibly to seize upon, snatch away, or take to oneself (see below Mt 11:12, John 6:15, Acts 23:10)
Harpazo is used 13 times in the NT.
Preceptaustin.org
Shilohsfoal
Member
Paul was referencing Daniel when we speaking of the man of sin exalting himsrlf above all.
2 Thes 2
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Daniel 11
36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.
The falling away appears to take place during the tribulation of the christians in Israel after the king of the north gives Israel his armed forces.I understand this to be the second beast in revelation 13(the false prophet,)This would be when the people of Israel receive the mark of he beast.
Jesus spoke of this persecution and falling away in his Olivet discourse.These were signs which take place before his coming.
Mathew 24
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
I'm looking for president Trump to give Israel an army next year .He has been showing fourth that he is the only one who can save Israel.In fact,he says if he is not elected,Israel will cease to exist.
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Shilohsfoal
Member
PS
This is a reference to the tribulation of the christians in Israel after the king of the north gives the Israeli goverment his armed forces.
Daniel 11:33-35
Wise leaders will give instruction to many, but these teachers will die by fire and sword, or they will be jailed and robbed.
During these persecutions, little help will arrive, and many who join them will not be sincere.
And some of the wise will fall victim to persecution. In this way, they will be refined and cleansed and made pure until the time of the end, for the appointed time is still to come.
This persecution lasts 42 months .
A time,times and a half time.
I don't personally interpret Dan 11 as anything to do with the endtimes. It is, in my view, talking about the era in which the Roman Empire rises to bring great tribulation to the Jewish People, following the evil reign of Antiochus 4. The King of the North was the Syrian king who ultimately tried to destroy true worship in Israel. The Maccabbees overthrew him.
Nor do I call the Reign of Antichrist, mentioned in Dan 7, the "Tribulation Period." No, the Tribulation, according to the Scriptures, refers to the desolation of the Jewish People in the NT era, beginning in 70 AD. That's when Jewish Christians suffered from their unbelieving Jewish brethren as well as from pagan Gentiles. And the process has continued in all nations with Christians from every culture.
The Reign of Antichrist is 3.5 years and has nothing to do with Daniel's 70th Week, mentioned in Dan 9. His reign is depicted in Dan 7 as being an attempt to subvert God's worship and to prevent the establishment of God's Kingdom on earth.
That is what Paul is calling the "apostasy," which must take place before the Son of Man comes from heaven to defeat him and to deliver the saints. Paul refers, in 2 Thes 2, to the order of events in Dan 7, which places the apostasy of Antichrist directly before the coming of the Son of Man. Christ cannot come back to deliver the Church unless the Antichrist is revealed first. Then he will return to defeat him.
Paul is concerned, just like Jesus was, that false prophets will make this scenario unclear to Chrsitians. Paul wants Christians to expect falsehoods and misconceptions of the Kingdom so that we do not fall into it, turning from the true God to false gods.
Christians in Paul's day were actually believing that Christ's Kingdom had already come, and that they were presenting it in their particular cult. Obviously, that would have to rationalize away the sin that is still on the earth, and render Christians unable to see the true dangers that continue to exist on earth until Christ comes back from heaven.
Carry_Your_Name
Member
When you see a LGBTQ rainbow flag flying in front of a church, when you hear PC woke propaganda from the pulpit, then you should know that apostasy is right here, you're living in the thick of it.
Carry_Your_Name
Member
It could be both 1 and 2, I personally don't believe in 3. Just let the bible interpret itself, the last line below pretty much sums up the current state of modern church organizations.
But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, unloving, [b]unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having a form of godliness but denying its power. (2 Tim. 3:1-5)
Shilohsfoal
Member
You don't believe Daniels prophecy about the time of the end is about end times?lol
Notice the man of sin comes to his end in verse 45 which is when the resurection takes place in Daniel 12:2.This corresponds to the coming of our Lord and destruction of the man of sin in 2 Thes 2.
"at the time of the end "
Daniel 11
40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.
41 He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon.
42 He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape.
43 But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps.
44 But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many.
45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.
12 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
When exactly do you believe everyone of Daniels people ,whos name are written were resurected from the dead,?That would include all the prophets and apostles of Jesus Christ .
But that is not what the phrase THE APOSTASIA without modifiers means. The text you are looking for is 1 Tim 4.1, where the verb is used. 2 Thes 2.3 is the only unmodified use of APOSTASIA that I know of. I have check other uses of the word APOSTASIA and ALL of the them are modified. Let me give you more info to think about:
Here are some numbers and meanings that should help bible students understand the meaning of the word APOSTASIA in 2 Thes 2.
APOSTASIA and its cognates appear over 220 times in the LXX. They have a variety of meanings. 66 times in the LXX the meaning is a physical, spatial departure or separation from someone or something. 53 times it is used of a religious departure, and only 8 times it refers to a political departure.
I point out these numbers because often times you hear that APOSTASIA means a religious departure from the faith most of the time. That is true but only when it is modified with a phrase like "from the faith" or "from Moses" (Acts 21.21). That does not bear true for the Greek Old Testament.
Yes, I've answered these very questions a number of times over the years. They're good questions but they've already been answered by very reputable people. I'm only offering my own opinion--not saying that there is only one view.
The "time of the end" is a term that for those of us who are "endtimes enthusiasts" sounds like a catch phrase that puts us right at the end of time. But in reality, I think it's entirely provable that the term can apply to the end of a period, to the end of a particular reign, as well as to the end of the age, dependent upon the conttext in which the term is applied.
If I speak of a particular ordeal that Israel must go through, such as the major persecution the Jews had to go through in the time of Antiochus 4, then I can speak of the "time of the end" of this particular ordeal--not the end of the age.
And as I said, this period in history, which was a serious challenge to Jewish worship under the Law, led directly into the time when God assigned to Israel the protection of the angel Michael, because the 4th Kingdom was rising. That Kingdom was Rome, which would be the start of Israel's final challenge, leading up to the end of the age, and the resurrection of the righteous.
It would be under Rome that Christ was killed, and under Rome that the early Jewish Christians would be executed and persecuted. And it would be under Rome that the Jewish people would be scattered after 70 AD in the longest and greatest punishment Israel had ever experienced--much greater and longer than the punishment they experienced from God under the 70 year Babylonian Captivity.
Every one of the points in the latter portions of Dan 11 apply directly to Antiochus 4. While he was in the East, fighting the Persians, his palatial tent was set up right next to Jerusalem, presided over by one of his generals. When Antiochus 4 heard the Maccabbees were in revolt there, he turned back, but died on the way.
Antiochus had essentially conquered Egypt, but had let the Egyptian rulers continue serving under his control. But they rebelled, and Antiochus was prevented by the Romans from preserving his control over Egypt. In the middle of that campaign he heard rumors of Jewish revolt over his reign, and he turned to attack them severely, denying them proper worship of God. That is what I believe we read in the last portions of Dan 11. But you can prefer any view you feel fits for you.
Carry_Your_Name
Member
This apostasy doesn't pop up out of the blue in one day. Like everything else, it goes gradually, then suddenly. So take 1 Tim. 4:1 as the "gradually", and 2 Thess. 2:3 as the "suddenly". I hold the view that the seven churches in Revelation symbolize seven epochs within the 2000+ years of church age from the pentecost to the second coming, and this departure from faith stretches over the last epoch, which is the Laodicean period. The zeitgeist - spirit of the age - is lukewarmness, people have a form of godliness - inherited from the Philadelphian period, but deny the power and live like pagans.
Shilohsfoal
Member
I suppose I prefer the view I've been watching.
Like I've said in other threads,I expect President Trump to o give Israel an army next year and fulfilled that part of the prophecy.Netayahu should be ready to give everyone in Israel his mark by then.
What is "Netanyahu's mark?" I love Netanyahu! He's one gutsy guy who is doing the right thing, in my opinion.
Has the suddenly happened yet?