The Apostles' Creed

[Mysteryman]

Hi Mike:

You shouldn't be so transparent Mike.

Seriously Mike, If I were to tell you, that you are a living example of what can happen when someone goes off and re-creates a belief system based on their own interpretation of the bible. What would you think if I made such a statement towards you ?

I was transparent, but you're very transparent in de-throning my God. I take that very personally.

The creed is a man made generalization of a group of people's beliefs. It originated with a purpose and was supported for that purpose. Ask yourself, as to what was the purpose of the creed ? Is its purpose to blind, or bind, or cause confusion and strife among the brethren ? Please don't tell me that it was written to cause unity ! Just look throughout this thread, and look at the dissention.

It's written to encourage unity.

I have never heard you say anything about a Christian having the Spirit of truth in them, or the Spirit of his Son in your hearts crying Abba Father, or the seed of Christ in you, the hope of glory. But I hear many , many times about your trinity doctrine, and about your theory that Jesus is fully God. Please don't tell me that you are not privately interpreting the Word of God, when that is exactly what you are doing.

I've agreed that I need to balance my state with having the Spirit of Truth. But the conversations where we have clashed have been around stripping Jesus of His Divinity. I have said, though not as much as I probably should have to you, that you need to seek the Living God and find the Truth in Him. I have said, as I did in that post, that I admire your zeal for God. But this is misplaced in not having such zeal for God in all His Glory.

Hi Mike:

Stripping Jesus of his divinity ? Who has done this Mike ? Misconceptions come about by most misunderstandings Mike. And on a board such as this , why do you take these conversations so personnaly ?

God is on His throne and no one can dethrone him. Why would anyone even try to dethrone the one true God ? So why even make such a suggestion ?

It seems apparent Mike, that you are dealing with some issues here. I will not press you so much, as it seems to bring out the worst in you.

Bless Mike

In His Service - MM

 

[Free]

We must look at the purpose of things. What is the purpose of the creeds? To determine who is orthodox and accepted by God? Tha RC denomination have done this for 1,700 years. The masses follow creeds.

As has been stated several times already, the purpose of the Creeds are to sum up orthodox Christian belief based on biblical truth.

It isn't that a creed is biblical or not, or even factual or not....it is the fact that God is not concerned with facts, but the truth. The truth is alive in the personhood of God. No creed can explain Him. No creed can encapsulate or boxify (if you will) the Christian walk or the requirements of God.

Facts are truth. The Creeds are based on the truth of Scripture. Your beliefs would seem to have us throw out Scripture in the name of "following the Spirit."

After all...the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. Again, this should be plainly evident.

...."not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life."

Is a creed according to the letter or the Spirit?

Just how many scriptures are being ignored in order to promote the bible...whose message is largely ignored?

Terrorists cry out "God is great (greater)" This is no doubt a true statement. But what has that to do with the actions that follow? Does any statement make up for a wrong attitude?

Again, none of this really has any bearing on the Creeds.

 

[jasoncran]

the "letter" has to do with the law, not creeds.

i have learned that often the persons or groups that have researched the bible long before ME,with a sincere desire to learn the truth are often right.

 

[Adullam]

We must look at the purpose of things. What is the purpose of the creeds? To determine who is orthodox and accepted by God? Tha RC denomination have done this for 1,700 years. The masses follow creeds.

As has been stated several times already, the purpose of the Creeds are to sum up orthodox Christian belief based on biblical truth.

You mean biblical facts. Facts can be used to support anything...now that is a fact.

It isn't that a creed is biblical or not, or even factual or not....it is the fact that God is not concerned with facts, but the truth. The truth is alive in the personhood of God. No creed can explain Him. No creed can encapsulate or boxify (if you will) the Christian walk or the requirements of God.

Facts are truth. The Creeds are based on the truth of Scripture. Your beliefs would seem to have us throw out Scripture in the name of "following the Spirit."

I am the way the facts and the life??? Facts are accepted by atheists...that is what drives their blindness. Truth is received by faith and divine revelation...as I have been trying to explain.

Your beliefs would seem to have us throw out the entire meaning of the words in order to embrace certain re-formulated words. The bible calls us to "follow the Spirit." Are creeds above the bible?

After all...the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. Again, this should be plainly evident.

...."not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life."

Is a creed according to the letter or the Spirit?

Just how many scriptures are being ignored in order to promote the bible...whose message is largely ignored?

Terrorists cry out "God is great (greater)" This is no doubt a true statement. But what has that to do with the actions that follow? Does any statement make up for a wrong attitude?

Again, none of this really has any bearing on the Creeds.

The Muslim extremists have no creeds???? I have just shown you that a creed is recited before the impending violence. I can't help a person see what they don't see.

 

[jasoncran]

christians kill to in the name of defending the babies right to live, and they read the bible.

i guess that bible of yours isnt much either.

 

[Adullam]

the "letter" has to do with the law, not creeds.

i have learned that often the persons or groups that have researched the bible long before ME,with a sincere desire to learn the truth are often right.

Sincerity is a human faculty. All the human faculties put together do not add up to an ounce of revelation. The Pharisees were very sincere. They preserved the Torah against the encroachement of idolatry the Greeks sought to impose. They championed the written word. But they seem to have persecuted the living Word. HMMmmmm....see a pattern?

John 5:39 "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;

Is God unjust for not also championing His word?????? Why condemn the champions? Think about it!

 

[Adullam]

christians kill to in the name of defending the babies right to live, and they read the bible.

i guess that bible of yours isnt much either.

The bible has no power of itself. It cannot save you. It is the Spirit that quickens. It is God who loves and has mercy on us. It is grace that strengthens us to overcome sin.

The bible explains this in great detail. ;)

 

[jasoncran]

christians kill to in the name of defending the babies right to live, and they read the bible.

i guess that bible of yours isnt much either.

The bible has no power of itself. It cannot save you. It is the Spirit that quickens. It is God who loves and has mercy on us. It is grace that strengthens us to overcome sin.

The bible explains this in great detail. ;)

same with the creeds that you seem to be blasting. they dont transfrom you. they are simple reminders for those that are learning, not meant to replace teaching and preaching of the word.

had you said i dont use them because i dont like them ,as you the bible its self to remind the flock, then we could understand, but when you blast creeds without actually seeing if those that use them do or dont teach the bible you loose creditibility.


as you can see, and often agree with fd, he probably recites both creeds at mass, and he knows the bible.

 

[Adullam]

Our good gets in the way of God's perfection. :yes

 

[Adullam]

christians kill to in the name of defending the babies right to live, and they read the bible.

i guess that bible of yours isnt much either.

The bible has no power of itself. It cannot save you. It is the Spirit that quickens. It is God who loves and has mercy on us. It is grace that strengthens us to overcome sin.

The bible explains this in great detail. ;)

same with the creeds that you seem to be blasting. they dont transfrom you. they are simple reminders for those that are learning, not meant to replace teaching and preaching of the word.

A little error leads to greater error! A little deviation now leads to huge deviations down the road. How do you think churches get gay pastors? This type of error takes time. A process of errors always leads to chaos.


had you said i dont use them because i dont like them ,as you the bible its self to remind the flock, then we could understand, but when you blast creeds without actually seeing if those that use them do or dont teach the bible you loose creditibility.

I study the bible for hours a day. Is it my fault that I have experienced the words to be true?


as you can see, and often agree with fd, he probably recites both creeds at mass, and he knows the bible.

Will the bible ever say...I never knew you?..or you never knew me?

 

[jasoncran]

Our good gets in the way of God's perfection. :yes

, well how does one teach the bible, hmm
is that to the tee spelled out and listed to the precise means

i dont think so.
worship isnt defined to what it can be only that is the singing of hymns, praise, testimonies and so on. the bible doesnt set parameters to where and the time and the order.

so that leaves a person to decide a style to how its done, unless you think the preaching should only be the reading of the word by a tape recorder. and listening to praise music, even then that's men singing soungs, best to limit those things to the songs only found in the bible

i think that you have such a disdain and hatred for the church that you let it blind you.odd for a christian. i dont like mega churches, but thats because one can lost in the system not because i have a 'thing' against large chruches.

 

[jasoncran]

The bible has no power of itself. It cannot save you. It is the Spirit that quickens. It is God who loves and has mercy on us. It is grace that strengthens us to overcome sin.

The bible explains this in great detail. ;)[/quote]
same with the creeds that you seem to be blasting. they dont transfrom you. they are simple reminders for those that are learning, not meant to replace teaching and preaching of the word.

A little error leads to greater error! A little deviation now leads to huge deviations down the road. How do you think churches get gay pastors? This type of error takes time. A process of errors always leads to chaos.
that can happen in small ones

had you said i dont use them because i dont like them ,as you the bible its self to remind the flock, then we could understand, but when you blast creeds without actually seeing if those that use them do or dont teach the bible you loose creditibility.

I study the bible for hours a day. Is it my fault that I have experienced the words to be true?
so you dont have chruch at all, another of those i dont need a" chruch"

as you can see, and often agree with fd, he probably recites both creeds at mass, and he knows the bible.[/quote]

Will the bible ever say...I never knew you?..or you never knew me?[/quote]
dont insult me, you know what i mean by that, and i will let him take that up with you.

thise site isnt good fellowship at times, trust me i do talk with those that have left this site,and one only vistis and was crushed by one here.

i certainly dont count this site as fellowship at times for me,as in the replacement for the gatering of the saints to worship, though that has happen to me here, but that was in pm only :verysad

 

[Free]

We must look at the purpose of things. What is the purpose of the creeds? To determine who is orthodox and accepted by God? Tha RC denomination have done this for 1,700 years. The masses follow creeds.

As has been stated several times already, the purpose of the Creeds are to sum up orthodox Christian belief based on biblical truth.

You mean biblical facts. Facts can be used to support anything...now that is a fact.

You are unnecessarily turning this into a game of semantics. Facts support the truth that they point to, which is the point.

It isn't that a creed is biblical or not, or even factual or not....it is the fact that God is not concerned with facts, but the truth. The truth is alive in the personhood of God. No creed can explain Him. No creed can encapsulate or boxify (if you will) the Christian walk or the requirements of God.

Facts are truth. The Creeds are based on the truth of Scripture. Your beliefs would seem to have us throw out Scripture in the name of "following the Spirit."

I am the way the facts and the life??? Facts are accepted by atheists...that is what drives their blindness. Truth is received by faith and divine revelation...as I have been trying to explain.

If something is a fact, it is true, otherwise it is not a fact. Did it take divine revelation to show you that 1+1=2? Does the Bible state that Jesus died and rose again or doesn't it? Does one need faith to read that in the Bible?

New Agers and other spiritual persons follow spirits apart from truth and that is what drives their blindness.

The problem is that you want to separate "following the Spirit" from statements of truth but it cannot be done. You are erroneously setting up "following the Spirit" as though it is in opposition to the Creeds but it is not.

Your beliefs would seem to have us throw out the entire meaning of the words in order to embrace certain re-formulated words. The bible calls us to "follow the Spirit." Are creeds above the bible?

I have changed no meanings. Do you see the problem with your argument? You argue that "the Bible calls us to "follow the Spirit" which is a statement from the Bible, yet argue against Creeds which are statements based on the Bible.

After all...the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. Again, this should be plainly evident.

...."not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life."

Is a creed according to the letter or the Spirit?

Just how many scriptures are being ignored in order to promote the bible...whose message is largely ignored?

Terrorists cry out "God is great (greater)" This is no doubt a true statement. But what has that to do with the actions that follow? Does any statement make up for a wrong attitude?

Again, none of this really has any bearing on the Creeds.

The Muslim extremists have no creeds???? I have just shown you that a creed is recited before the impending violence. I can't help a person see what they don't see.

I know what you stated. I never said that Muslim extremists have no creeds. My point is that none of what you said has any bearing on Christian creeds and how they relate to Christianity.

 

[Adullam]

Doctrine is not the same as indoctrination.

Indoctrination is the process of inculcating ideas, attitudes, cognitive strategies or a professional methodology. It is often distinguished from education by the fact that the indoctrinated person is expected not to question or critically examine the doctrine they have learned. As such it is used pejoratively, often in the context of political opinions, theology or religious dogma.

Are not suicide bombers indoctrinated?

Every evil thing done in Jesus' name has come about through an indoctrination. Should we not resist this tendency?

Creeds are used to indoctrinate. They are usually memorized by the host being indoctrinated. Creeds are derived from a human strategy to make the masses conform to a perceived truth.

What I am saying is that the process is all wrong. God wants a relationship with His followers not an automatic response based on a mindwashing exercise. Answer correctly or die!!!!! Creeds are aimed at the mind...although they actually numb the mind. God is after the heart. It is human means versus Godly means.

There is a way that seems right to a man....

 

[jasoncran]

please, addullam, quit while your ahead. no one is made to recite anything.

to be honest i never have recited the creed, but it is posted on the church bulletin board.

some call us teaching the bible to children indoctranation, duh, it is.

train the the child up in the way he should go and when he is old he shall not part from me.

training doesnt equate to criticially think about the bible.

 

[Adullam]

please, addullam, quit while your ahead. no one is made to recite anything.

to be honest i never have recited the creed, but it is posted on the church bulletin board.

some call us teaching the bible to children indoctranation, duh, it is.

train the the child up in the way he should go and when he is old he shall not part from me.

training doesnt equate to criticially think about the bible.

OK I'll stop here. I have said enough!

 

[stranger]

Mike wrote:

MM, I'm sorry to be blunt, but you are a living example of what can happen when someone goes off and re-creates a belief system based on their own interpretation of the Bible. They can cloak themselves with the "I'm just allowing myself to read the true meaning" all they want, but in the end, they are justifying a process by which they've arrived at false doctrine. Then the usual tactic is to try to convince believers that the original believers never held some of the core tenets of our Christian belief.

You reject the Trinity and that Jesus was/is God. And you spend a lot of time trying to convince people that everything Christians have believed is a smokescreen, deliberately or not deliberately, put in place along the way. It's almost a "superiority complex" in my opinion. And that leads back to the discussion at hand: The Apostles Creed. On your own, you seem to have convinced yourself (but more likely, were convinced by someone) along the way that some of our core tenets were wrong, and you reject the premise of the creed.

No one said it was Inspired, but you've rejected that notion twice. To whom? It seems like you're boxing shadows for no reason at all, other than the fact that you disagree with the core doctrine of Christianity. As I've said before, I have tremendous appreciation for your zeal for God, but in rejecting the Divinity of Jesus, you are not encountering the Real God. And this manifests itself in disagreements such as this.

Hi Mike,

Here's how it went. In response to Mysteryman's desription of how he teaches and so on I wrote:

stranger speaking:

I can't see how this isn't the very essence of private interpretation? Yet you seem to speak against private interpretation frequently. How would you respond to this:

Is what you teach consistent with what Christians have always believed?

To which MM replied:

Let me ask you --according to whom? '

quotes within quotes.. confusing?

 

[shad]

how then do you run you church? by disorganiztion, and what if you are wrong. who checks you, or are you so all knowing that you cant be wrong.

You don't seem to believe in the power of the Holy Spirit.

please, I AM PENTACOSTAL. I HAVE OPERATED IN THE GIFTS OF INTPRETATION OF TOUNGUES, AND PROPHECY, AND DISCERNMENT, AND HAVE HAD VISION OF MY HOMETOWN, AND THE HOUSING BUBBLE, ALL THAT THE BUBBLE CAUSED TO BE BUILT UP, I SAW IN 2000. TO THE TEE!

The Scriptures say we know them by their fruit.

 

[jasoncran]

ah, but you didnt answer the question,

how do you do it?

and where and who taught you how to worship? and the order

the how exactly isnt in the bible btw nor is the teaching

only what the the definition of proper doctrine is and what worship is. all esle that the church does is based on a men's idea of how to get it across.

please present me some methodology of order, just as i shown you, and those churches i have been to

help the poor,
the one i'm at now teaches children and that is its primary mission, at first for me.

 

[shad]

ah, but you didnt answer the question,

how do you do it?

and where and who taught you how to worship? and the order

the how exactly isnt in the bible btw nor is the teaching

only what the the definition of proper doctrine is and what worship is. all esle that the church does is based on a men's idea of how to get it across.

please present me some methodology of order, just as i shown you, and those churches i have been to

help the poor,
the one i'm at now teaches children and that is its primary mission, at first for me.

You are so legalistic. Serving Jesus with all your might is worship. You believe in chariots and horses, not God's power. You believe in the majority, not the quality of your fruit.