The Apostles' Creed

[westtexas]

You reject the Trinity and that Jesus was/is God.

Hello Mike, this is the very reason the Nicene Creed was written. To reject the heresy of Arianism. As has been stated many times it is simply a statement of OUR beliefs. Originally the Creed said "We believe". It is simple and leaves out all possibilities for personal interpretation. Obviously though, non-trinitarians are going to take exception to ANY of the Creeds.

Westtexas

 

[Mike]

I don't want to speak for Jason but I believe that the Council of Nicaea WAS called by Constantine to settle the dispute over the Trinity. It was called to settle this dispute between those who believed in the Trinity and those who did not. (Arianism) And thus the Nicene Creed was written.

I said this before, but I'll back it up with documentation and a link. The council didn't decide the fate of the Trinity. They discussed how to express that which had already been generally accepted.

http://www.letusreason.org/Trin13.htm

"Emperor Constantine's Nicene council is usually pointed to as the source for the doctrine of the Trinity, yet the Trinity was present in the church long before Constantine. Most Jehovah Witnesses and other anti- trinitarians have never had a true presentation of Church history. If they knew history they may not point to Constantine. They have created this misrepresentation to do battle against a lie. They portray Church history as proof that the doctrine of the Trinity is of a pagan source from the Emperor Constantine. The truth will astound you.

The term Trinitas was popularized by Tertullian almost 100 years before the Nicene council in his debate against Praxeas. However, he was not the first to use the term, a man Theophilus Bishop of Antioch in 160 was the first to use the term (that we have in writing), many years before in his epistle to Autolycus The 2nd,xv..We can assume it was used prior to Theophilus and was held as a common church belief with the many quotes that are left to us in history by the early church pastors. Athenagoras representing the whole Churches belief wrote, that, "they hold the Father to be God, and the Son God, and the Holy Spirit, and declare their union and their distinction in order."(A plea for the Christians.10.3) The term was used to simply describe the three that simultaneously exist as the one God. A man named Praxeas promoted what is called Monarchianism, which held a strict form of monotheistic progression. That the Father became the Son, and the Son became the Spirit. This is what is called modalism in it's simplest form, What is better termed Oneness today. Despite the accusation's of the Church inventing and promoting the Trinity. We find the Church in Rome and elsewhere falling prey to numerous heresies that they tried to keep out.

As we see from history the doctrine of the Trinity did not depend on any council as it was used by Tertullian and others long before a council was called on doctrinal teaching. The Catholic Church gets blamed for inventing the Trinity yet when we look through it's history it tells a different story. History shows that it was Trinitarians that first resisted a single church Government with a Pope as its head, they did not invent it. Zephyrinus (210 AD.) and Callistus (220 AD.) were the first bishops to claim Mt.16:18 to themselves, they were both modalistic in their view of God. Tertullian called him an usurper saying, "as if he was the Bishop of Bishop's." So it was Oneness believers who first wanted to be head of the whole Church, not Constantine. Adolf Harnack in his book the History of Dogma actually states that "Modalism…was for almost a generation the official theory in Rome." (3:53). Which certainly proposes a problem for those who claim a Roman origin of the Trinity. This occurred before Constantine and Arius' heresy won after Constantine which Rome promoted for yet another 50 years."

 

[Mike]

You reject the Trinity and that Jesus was/is God.

Hello Mike, this is the very reason the Nicene Creed was written. To reject the heresy of Arianism. As has been stated many times it is simply a statement of OUR beliefs. Originally the Creed said "We believe". It is simple and leaves out all possibilities for personal interpretation. Obviously though, non-trinitarians are going to take exception to ANY of the Creeds.

Westtexas

 

[westtexas]

I don't want to speak for Jason but I believe that the Council of Nicaea WAS called by Constantine to settle the dispute over the Trinity. It was called to settle this dispute between those who believed in the Trinity and those who did not. (Arianism) And thus the Nicene Creed was written.

I said this before, but I'll back it up with documentation and a link. The council didn't decide the fate of the Trinity. They discussed how to express that which had already been generally accepted.

I agree. I am not as articulate as some on here and my intent does not come across sometimes.

Westtexas

 

[Adullam]

I have seen men too often take the ball from God in order to run it forward themselves. Behind this desire to see increase there lies usually an ambition to make a name for themselves.

Me too. It happened at the Reformation.

It is wise to leave the running of the church to God.

How does this look, practically speaking? How does God "run the church" without using men to communicate His will, as He has done throughout history, starting with Abraham? You could believe, as some do, in private Bible interpretation alone, but doesn't "church" assume more than one person and a continuity of doctrine?

The "running of the church" is done by God, through people who write Creeds. This is the Biblical way.

The living Holy Spirit chooses men to do specific things. Creeds are dead. The Holy Spirit is to run the daily affairs of the church. God is still trying to speak to people but who is listening?

2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.
3 And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away.


4 ¶ So they, being sent forth by the Holy Ghost, departed unto Seleu'cia; and from thence they sailed to Cyprus.

or else

Now there was a disciple at Damascus named Ananias. The Lord said to him in a vision, "Ananias." And he said, "Here I am, Lord." And the Lord said to him, "Rise and go to the street called Straight, and at the house of Judas look for a man of Tarsus named Saul, for behold, he is praying, and he has seen in a vision a man named Ananias come in and lay his hands on him so that he might regain his sight."

Is this our own experience? Or do we prefer creeds to hearing from the Lord?

 

[Free]

The living Holy Spirit chooses men to do specific things. Creeds are dead. The Holy Spirit is to run the daily affairs of the church. God is still trying to speak to people but who is listening?
....
Is this our own experience? Or do we prefer creeds to hearing from the Lord?

The creeds are statements based directly on what Scripture says. If the Creeds are dead, then so is Scripture. They have nothing to do with whether or not the Holy Spirit is "running the daily affairs of the church" and they certainly aren't set against "hearing from the Lord."

For some reason--probably because you are so against organizational structure in the Church--you set anything up you don't agree with and see as being a part of "religion" as though it is against God, even though there is absolutely no grounds for doing so.

 

[Mysteryman]

Quote Mike: "MM, I'm sorry to be blunt, but you are a living example of what can happen when someone goes off and re-creates a belief system based on their own interpretation of the Bible."


Hi Mike:

You shouldn't be so transparent Mike.

Seriously Mike, If I were to tell you, that you are a living example of what can happen when someone goes off and re-creates a belief system based on their own interpretation of the bible. What would you think if I made such a statement towards you ?

If I tell you that Jesus Christ is the Son of the living God, and you come back with , you should believe as I do, that Jesus is fully God. Who is the one that is re-creating a belief system based on their own interpretation of the bible ? Especially one such as yourself who claims that Jesus is fully God !

The creed is a man made generalization of a group of people's beliefs. It originated with a purpose and was supported for that purpose. Ask yourself, as to what was the purpose of the creed ? Is its purpose to blind, or bind, or cause confusion and strife among the brethren ? Please don't tell me that it was written to cause unity ! Just look throughout this thread, and look at the dissention.

Christians are suppose to walk by the Spirit, not by a creed. Letting God work in their hearts, and allowing God to give them understanding. The only thing that an Apostle of God can do, is to plant and water. It still comes down to God, who gives the increase.

I have never heard you say anything about a Christian having the Spirit of truth in them, or the Spirit of his Son in your hearts crying Abba Father, or the seed of Christ in you, the hope of glory. But I hear many , many times about your trinity doctrine, and about your theory that Jesus is fully God. Please don't tell me that you are not privately interpreting the Word of God, when that is exactly what you are doing.

The Word is clear - Romans 8:14 - "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God"

You are led by doctrines and creeds, and I am led by the Spirit of God. See the difference ?

May I suggest that you read Romans 13:1 - 8

 

[jasoncran]

I have seen men too often take the ball from God in order to run it forward themselves. Behind this desire to see increase there lies usually an ambition to make a name for themselves.

Me too. It happened at the Reformation.

It is wise to leave the running of the church to God.

How does this look, practically speaking? How does God "run the church" without using men to communicate His will, as He has done throughout history, starting with Abraham? You could believe, as some do, in private Bible interpretation alone, but doesn't "church" assume more than one person and a continuity of doctrine?

The "running of the church" is done by God, through people who write Creeds. This is the Biblical way.

The living Holy Spirit chooses men to do specific things. Creeds are dead. The Holy Spirit is to run the daily affairs of the church. God is still trying to speak to people but who is listening?

2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.
3 And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away.


4 ¶ So they, being sent forth by the Holy Ghost, departed unto Seleu'cia; and from thence they sailed to Cyprus.

or else

Now there was a disciple at Damascus named Ananias. The Lord said to him in a vision, "Ananias." And he said, "Here I am, Lord." And the Lord said to him, "Rise and go to the street called Straight, and at the house of Judas look for a man of Tarsus named Saul, for behold, he is praying, and he has seen in a vision a man named Ananias come in and lay his hands on him so that he might regain his sight."

Is this our own experience? Or do we prefer creeds to hearing from the Lord?

how then do you run you church? by disorganiztion, and what if you are wrong. who checks you, or are you so all knowing that you cant be wrong.

 

[shad]

how then do you run you church? by disorganiztion, and what if you are wrong. who checks you, or are you so all knowing that you cant be wrong.

You don't seem to believe in the power of the Holy Spirit.

 

[jasoncran]

how then do you run you church? by disorganiztion, and what if you are wrong. who checks you, or are you so all knowing that you cant be wrong.

You don't seem to believe in the power of the Holy Spirit.

please, I AM PENTACOSTAL. I HAVE OPERATED IN THE GIFTS OF INTPRETATION OF TOUNGUES, AND PROPHECY, AND DISCERNMENT, AND HAVE HAD VISION OF MY HOMETOWN, AND THE HOUSING BUBBLE, ALL THAT THE BUBBLE CAUSED TO BE BUILT UP, I SAW IN 2000. TO THE TEE!

now then, does the holy spirit have order? how exactly do you conduct service and which book is it EXACTLY BASED ON, HMM

SUNDAY SCHOOL ISNT IN THE BIBLE! NOR SPECEFIC INSTRUCTIONS ON HOW THE SERVICE SHOULD BE DONE. ONLY THAT IT MUST HAVE SOME ORDER WHEN THE GIFTS ARE USED, NOTHING THE WORD FIRST OR LAST,OR MUSIC SUNG , AND WICH SONGS.AND WHERE AND WHEN TESTIMONIES, AND THERE'S NO "ALTER CALL" EITHER.

SO WHERE DID THAT STUFF COME FROM,?

caps used for emphazise.

 

[Adullam]

The living Holy Spirit chooses men to do specific things. Creeds are dead. The Holy Spirit is to run the daily affairs of the church. God is still trying to speak to people but who is listening?
....
Is this our own experience? Or do we prefer creeds to hearing from the Lord?

The creeds are statements based directly on what Scripture says. If the Creeds are dead, then so is Scripture. They have nothing to do with whether or not the Holy Spirit is "running the daily affairs of the church" and they certainly aren't set against "hearing from the Lord."

For some reason--probably because you are so against organizational structure in the Church--you set anything up you don't agree with and see as being a part of "religion" as though it is against God, even though there is absolutely no grounds for doing so.

The bible is only properly understood by the Holy Spirit. It is not an optional ...it is a requirement to move by revelation from God. So when men set up their own criteria, be it correct or not, we circumvent God's process. This should be obvious to us.

Jesus was put to death by they who interpreted Him as an enemy of God...according to their rendering of the scriptures. This is no small deviation from intent of the scriptures.

Deut. 13:1 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
13:2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
13:3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
13:4 Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.
13:5 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.

It is easy to write off the Jewish leaders of the day who esteemed that Jesus' message was SO DIFFERENT from what they had been taught so as to seem like the worst heresy possible. How could Jesus rail so much against their leadership...their system. Surely one who does that cannot be of God!!!????



How many times are we warned in the word to not follow the traditions of men?

We err greatly if we trust to our own understanding. We are not to look to our own understanding but remain open to be led by the Spirit.

Does the bible say...The word will lead you into all truth? Or is it...The Spirit will guide you into all truth?????

12 "I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. 14 He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. 15 All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you.

What have we learned in 2,000 years of church history?

 

[jasoncran]

ok, adullam, where is the means(exactly to the tee) that you use to teach in the bible.
and style of worship, the order and so on.
if it aint to the tee, then its men's traditions.

 

[Adullam]

ok, adullam, where is the means(exactly to the tee) that you use to teach in the bible.
and style of worship, the order and so on.
if it aint to the tee, then its men's traditions.

Men can't keep the law in their own strength. But it seems that men have not yet realized that they cannot understand the bible either, without being led by the Spirit. Which denomination is right? Is it always others who are wrong? Or is the temptation to interpret the bible so strong as to have us set up our own interpretations and traditions. Following to a "t" does not exempt one from gross error. Here is an example of the bible showing the need for heavenly wisdom....

4 Do not answer a fool according to his folly,
or you will be like him yourself.

5 Answer a fool according to his folly,
or he will be wise in his own eyes.

Which verse should we heed? Which one do we follow to a T? Which one should be in our creed? If we think that both are true, then how do we know we are not applying them exactly backwards?

 

[Adullam]

For they who interpret the word of God, these are the sons of God??????

or is it........

Rom 8:14because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

The proper use of the bible is to believe and apply...through Him. God remains in control...not us!!!!!!

"Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation." 2 Pet 1:20

The creeds were used during the Inquisition to decide whether one was burned at the stake or not. We, humans are rigid in our understanding. We take A truth and destroy other truths with it. So did the Pharisees. Notice that it is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit that is unforgiveable not an error in doctrine. We humans make the worst possible judges of things concerning the truth. We see better when we know how blind we are. God can then help us. If we say we see and we understand...then our sin remains in us.

John 9:39Jesus said, "For judgment I have come into this world, so that the blind will see and those who see will become blind."

40Some Pharisees who were with him heard him say this and asked, "What? Are we blind too?"

41Jesus said, "If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains.

 

[jasoncran]

nice answer, so i will assume that you just wing it.

being to many charismatic churches, and seen how the holy spirit operates and in great diversity, and i am keenly sensitive to him, though i can be prideful and not listen.
i will know a minute before the pastor will stop preaching. as the holy spirit tells me.

this is how i have observed him operate

in some churches, prayer, sought first during service
then worship(with his presence)
then the word and then alter call\and conviction and also word expounded upon.

simple basic, seen this alot

now change after to pray to all of sudden in the middle of worship people begin praying the holy ghost,and some get up and testify,all while the pastor is lead by the H.S. to let this happen. then no word is given nor alter call. sometimes healing will occur.


then comes the parts that seem chaotic to the non-pentacostals that can happen at anytime
such as yesterday in my chruch, in the midldle of worship, or the teaching the word, and speaks LOUDLY in tounges and theres and intepreatation.

 

[jasoncran]

then through into the mix, the prayer line or the minister starts operating in the gifts, and persons get words, slain and or drunk in the holy ghost.

this to me is how the holy spirit does things. and its done at his beckoning, sometimes it's LOUD, other times its quiet time and contemplative.

on the latter there's an order, a very basic order in these styles of service.
prayer,
worship
word taught
alter call, prayer

yes there are ton of variations , and most of the protestants do things this way,but the pentacostal allow the gifts to be used, but the order was based upon some man's way of doing worship based on how thought the order should be done and that not of the devil.


i have been to your style of home church, one guy started a chruch that way,though it died,he was in the denomation i am in now, church of God.


the whole calvary chapel movement starts in a home church and move into a bigger setting until they get their won building.

 

[jasoncran]

now then you naysayers, is that happening in your so called Holy spirit lead home church.

anny up, you called me a fool. :verysad

if not why not , for that is the way i have seen him work and none of those charismatic churches i have been to had more then 50 persons in attendence.

and in that setting i get corrected by God alot.,that hurts, but i cant deny its him.

 

[Mike]

Hi Mike:

You shouldn't be so transparent Mike.

Seriously Mike, If I were to tell you, that you are a living example of what can happen when someone goes off and re-creates a belief system based on their own interpretation of the bible. What would you think if I made such a statement towards you ?

I was transparent, but you're very transparent in de-throning my God. I take that very personally.

The creed is a man made generalization of a group of people's beliefs. It originated with a purpose and was supported for that purpose. Ask yourself, as to what was the purpose of the creed ? Is its purpose to blind, or bind, or cause confusion and strife among the brethren ? Please don't tell me that it was written to cause unity ! Just look throughout this thread, and look at the dissention.

It's written to encourage unity.

I have never heard you say anything about a Christian having the Spirit of truth in them, or the Spirit of his Son in your hearts crying Abba Father, or the seed of Christ in you, the hope of glory. But I hear many , many times about your trinity doctrine, and about your theory that Jesus is fully God. Please don't tell me that you are not privately interpreting the Word of God, when that is exactly what you are doing.

I've agreed that I need to balance my state with having the Spirit of Truth. But the conversations where we have clashed have been around stripping Jesus of His Divinity. I have said, though not as much as I probably should have to you, that you need to seek the Living God and find the Truth in Him. I have said, as I did in that post, that I admire your zeal for God. But this is misplaced in not having such zeal for God in all His Glory.

 

[Free]

The bible is only properly understood by the Holy Spirit. It is not an optional ...it is a requirement to move by revelation from God. So when men set up their own criteria, be it correct or not, we circumvent God's process. This should be obvious to us.

This has nothing to do with the Creeds.

Jesus was put to death by they who interpreted Him as an enemy of God...according to their rendering of the scriptures. This is no small deviation from intent of the scriptures.

Please show where the Creeds deviate from Scripture.

How many times are we warned in the word to not follow the traditions of men?

How many times in the NT are we told to follow tradition?

We err greatly if we trust to our own understanding. We are not to look to our own understanding but remain open to be led by the Spirit.

Does the bible say...The word will lead you into all truth? Or is it...The Spirit will guide you into all truth?????

12 "I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. 14 He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. 15 All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you.

Again, this has nothing to do with the Creeds.

What have we learned in 2,000 years of church history?

That people always come along who think they know better than the majority of Christians of the last 2000 years.

 

[Adullam]

The bible is only properly understood by the Holy Spirit. It is not an optional ...it is a requirement to move by revelation from God. So when men set up their own criteria, be it correct or not, we circumvent God's process. This should be obvious to us.

This has nothing to do with the Creeds.

Jesus was put to death by they who interpreted Him as an enemy of God...according to their rendering of the scriptures. This is no small deviation from intent of the scriptures.

Please show where the Creeds deviate from Scripture.

How many times are we warned in the word to not follow the traditions of men?

How many times in the NT are we told to follow tradition?

We err greatly if we trust to our own understanding. We are not to look to our own understanding but remain open to be led by the Spirit.

Does the bible say...The word will lead you into all truth? Or is it...The Spirit will guide you into all truth?????

12 "I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. 14 He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. 15 All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you.

Again, this has nothing to do with the Creeds.

What have we learned in 2,000 years of church history?

That people always come along who think they know better than the majority of Christians of the last 2000 years.

We must look at the purpose of things. What is the purpose of the creeds? To determine who is orthodox and accepted by God? Tha RC denomination have done this for 1,700 years. The masses follow creeds.

It isn't that a creed is biblical or not, or even factual or not....it is the fact that God is not concerned with facts, but the truth. The truth is alive in the personhood of God. No creed can explain Him. No creed can encapsulate or boxify (if you will) the Christian walk or the requirements of God.

After all...the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. Again, this should be plainly evident.

...."not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life."

Is a creed according to the letter or the Spirit?

Just how many scriptures are being ignored in order to promote the bible...whose message is largely ignored?

Terrorists cry out "God is great (greater)" This is no doubt a true statement. But what has that to do with the actions that follow? Does any statement make up for a wrong attitude?