The Atonement: What did it REALLY Accomplish?

[dirtfarmer]

ANd your point is.........????

I didn't say anything about "inheriting the kingdom." I said: "They were created in the image and likeness of God. God doesn't die and they weren't created to die either."
In the midst of the garden was the tree of life which A&E were allowed to eat.
When they were cast out of the Garden, they no longer had access to the tree of life.
The fact is that Adam was placed in "that kingdom" to tend it. He was created to rule over paradise. (Gen 2:15)
That was BEFORE A&E sinned.
Once they sinned, they were subject to death and corruption and could not return to paradise.

hello Jim Parker, dirtfarmer here

Where does scripture state that "man" was created "all powerful"; "all knowing", and was Adam created with the ability to be every where at the same time?

Adam was created "in our image, and after our likeness:" according to Genesis 1:26. In verse 27 it is stated in the last phrase; " male and female created he them. "Man" was created as tripartite as God, but man wasn't created all powerful, or all knowing, nor with the ability to be omnipresent. Since man was created as flesh and blood, then man was created subject to physical death.

According to 1 Corinthians 15:45 the first Adam was made a living soul, but that was after God breathed into Adam the breath of life. The last Adam a quickening spirit.
V46 " that was not first which is spiritual, but natural."
v49 "As we have borne the image of the earthy,
we shall also bear the image of the heavenly"
v50" Now this I say. brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God,"

As I have stated before, there had to be a change in Adam before he could have had eternal life. He was not created with it. Therefore he was born dying physically.

Where does scripture state that

 

[Douglas Summers]

To gain eternal life....................is to believe What the Lord Jesus Christ did for us personally.Acts 16:31

Of course He died for all, but you are not clear on your theology. Like I said, you have to take a hold of it. (to gain eternal life............is to believe) That is taking a hold of it.

 

[Jim Parker]

Where does scripture state that "man" was created "all powerful"; "all knowing", and was Adam created with the ability to be every where at the same time?

Did I say he was? No, I did not.
I said that I believe man was not supposed to die. I believe that because he was put in charge of the garden where he could "eat the fruit of the tree of life" which was in the garden.

Since man was created as flesh and blood, then man was created subject to physical death.

There was no death until A&E sinned.
If they had not sinned they would not have died.
The wages of SIN is death, not the wages of "being a creature."

According to 1 Corinthians 15:45 the first Adam was made a living soul, but that was after God breathed into Adam the breath of life. The last Adam a quickening spirit.
V46 " that was not first which is spiritual, but natural."
v49 "As we have borne the image of the earthy,
we shall also bear the image of the heavenly"
v50" Now this I say. brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God,"

Right, Adam is the head of the sinful race of fallen man and Jesus, the "second Adam", is the head of the race of God-bearing mankind.

As I have stated before, there had to be a change in Adam before he could have had eternal life. He was not created with it. Therefore he was born dying physically.

There had to be a change because Adam sinned and, after him all of mankind. (Maybe not Elijah and Enoch since they were taken up into heaven without dying.)
The reason that flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom is because, AFTER A&E sinned, all men continued to sin.
Therefore, BECAUSE all of mankind sins, sinful flesh cannot inherit the kingdom of God.
It is the flesh and blood of SINFUL mankind that cannot inherit the kingdom. Adam was created perfect without sin and, had he not sinned, he would have inherited the kingdom.

1Co 15:51-57 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.” “O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?” The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

"And that's the REST of the story."

 

[gr8grace3]

Of course He died for all, but you are not clear on your theology. Like I said, you have to take a hold of it. (to gain eternal life............is to believe) That is taking a hold of it.

We don't "take hold" of it. It is freely given the moment we believe. He Holds us.

 

[dirtfarmer]

Did I say he was? No, I did not.
I said that I believe man was not supposed to die. I believe that because he was put in charge of the garden where he could "eat the fruit of the tree of life" which was in the garden.

There was no death until A&E sinned.
If they had not sinned they would not have died.
The wages of SIN is death, not the wages of "being a creature."

Right, Adam is the head of the sinful race of fallen man and Jesus, the "second Adam", is the head of the race of God-bearing mankind.

There had to be a change because Adam sinned and, after him all of mankind. (Maybe not Elijah and Enoch since they were taken up into heaven without dying.)
The reason that flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom is because, AFTER A&E sinned, all men continued to sin.
Therefore, BECAUSE all of mankind sins, sinful flesh cannot inherit the kingdom of God.
It is the flesh and blood of SINFUL mankind that cannot inherit the kingdom. Adam was created perfect without sin and, had he not sinned, he would have inherited the kingdom.

1Co 15:51-57 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.” “O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?” The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

"And that's the REST of the story."

hello Jim Parker, dirtfarmer here

"Death is swallowed up in victory", is this in reference to physical death or is it in reference to Spiritual death? The death that Adam died immediately, was spiritual. Physical death has no sting to those that are believers, but spiritual death does have a sting until a person becomes a believer.

1 Corinthians 15:54 "So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass that saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory." Is the death that is swallowed up in victory physical or spiritual. If it is physical death then those that die without faith also will enjoy the victory? I don't think so, they will be in the lake of fire.

In post # 178 you made the statement: "God doesn't die and they were not created to die." Was God Spirit at the time of creation? Jesus said in Luke 24:39 " Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have." When Adam was created he had a body of flesh and blood, which made him a man. Hebrews 9:27 " And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment."

Remember this, scripture states that sin was not imputed from Adam to Moses(Romans5:14)

 

[JLB]

I doubt your question has any validity.

Regardless of your opinion, the question remains.

If someone today, calls the Holy Spirit, the devil, is that blaspheming the Holy Spirit, based on the context of Matthew 12:24-32?

Is the answer yes or no?


JLB

 

[Douglas Summers]

We don't "take hold" of it. ven the momIt is freely gient we believe. He Holds us.

Your post contradicts, your own theology. It is given to those who believe!!! So there is something you have to do to receive it. and that is to believe. I'am not a stranger to Christ, neither are the born again. There is an anathema to those who preach another gospel other than the one Christ and the Apostles teach (the doctrine of Christ). My calling and election is pastor/teacher, not by man or by the wisdom of man, but like all born again believers, it is not choice, but election by the sovereign will of the Holy Spirit to give as He wills. The gift is not for us to do, but we become a vessel for the Holy Spirit to work through us. Zeal is good, but zeal without knowledge and the sovereign will of the Holy Spirit is deceptive. (1 Cor. 12:1-31) and is a ministry of (1 Cor. 13:1-13)

 

[FreeGrace]

Regardless of your opinion, the question remains.

If someone today, calls the Holy Spirit, the devil, is that blaspheming the Holy Spirit, based on the context of Matthew 12:24-32?

Is the answer yes or no?
JLB

The question has no validity or reality. The unforgivable sin that Jesus spoke of wasn't about calling the Holy Spirit the devil.

Your questions seem to come from an overactive imagination.

The most obvious understanding of what Jesus said is that those who ascribe the miracles of the Holy Spirit to the devil have hardened themselves to the point of being unable to believe in Christ.

I know your tricks. That you'll apply a 'yes' answer to another fantasy idea that some believer somewhere could commit such a sin and therefore will lose salvation and go to hell.

Well, the Bible teaches that the gifts AND CALLING of God are irrevocable, per Rom 11:29. And that eternal life is a gift of God.

Therefore, those who have received God's irrevocable gift of eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH, per Jesus Himself in John 10:28.

So, my view is that one who would call the Holy Spirit the devil would NEVER believe. And I know your opinion is that a believer could do that. But that cannot be proven.

I don't deal with the "what if's..." but only with the "what is..." that the Bible teaches.

 

[JLB]

The question has no validity or reality. The unforgivable sin that Jesus spoke of wasn't about calling the Holy Spirit the devil.

24 Now when the Pharisees heard it they said, “This fellow does not cast out demons except by Beelzebub, the ruler of the demons.”

25 But Jesus knew their thoughts, and said to them: “Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand. 26 If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand? 27 And if I cast out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they shall be your judges. 28 But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you. Matthew 12:24-28

• This fellow does not cast out demons except by Beelzebub, the ruler of the demons.”

The Pharisee's claimed Jesus was casting out demons by Beelzebub, the ruler of demons, which Jesus says is Satan.

• But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you.

Jesus stated that it was by the Holy Spirit that He cast out demons, proving that the kingdom of God had come upon them.

The Pharisee's were calling the Spirit by which Jesus was casting out demons; Satan, or Beelzebub

This is "speaking against" the Holy Spirit, which Jesus refers to as blasphemy.

"Speaking against" the Holy Spirit, calling the Holy Spirit a derogatory name or slur, is what is being taught here.

Blasphemy by definition: Strong's G988 - blasphēmia

1. slander, detraction, speech injurious, to another's good name
2. impious and reproachful speech injurious to divine majesty
   

31 “Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come. Matthew 12:31-32

If someone today, calls the Holy Spirit, the devil, is that blaspheming the Holy Spirit, based on the context of Matthew 12:24-32?

Yes or No?

I say with all confidence, Yes. Speaking a word against the Holy Spirit today, is just as much Blasphemy, as it was during the first century.

God's truth doesn't change over time.

Men try to redefine the words of the bible to fit their post-modern mindset, but His truth and principles endure forever.

Your questions seem to come from an overactive imagination.

The most obvious understanding of what Jesus said is that those who ascribe the miracles of the Holy Spirit to the devil have hardened themselves to the point of being unable to believe in Christ.

32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

Then no one could ever be saved if "unbelief", was blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, as all are "unbelievers", until they do believe and are saved.

Those who don't believe the Gospel, don't have to say a word at all to have unbelief. Jesus plainly said... whoever "speaks a word" against the Holy Spirit...

Here is more context from Matthew 12, about how important our words we speak are:

36 But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment. 37 For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.” Matthew 12:36-37


Your going to have to do better than your personal insults against me, as the plain truth of the scriptures can not be denied, as they are expounded upon in clarity.



JLB

 

[Douglas Summers]

The most obvious understanding of what Jesus said is that those who ascribe the miracles of the Holy Spirit to the devil have hardened themselves to the point of being unable to believe in Christ.

It is more than that, It is seeing a miracle of Christ, and knowing it is a miracle by Christ, and assigning it to Satan for the purpose of discrediting The Power of God to elevate your own self worth. (in which was always the point of Israels rejection of Christ) they did not want to lose their position of importance among the people, for they loved the praises of man rather than God. (John 12:41-43). All the work of God is through the power of His Holy Spirit.

 

[gr8grace3]

Your post contradicts, your own theology. It is given to those who believe!!! So there is something you have to do to receive it. and that is to believe.

Why is my quote different in your post?
Original~~We don't "take hold" of it. It is freely given the moment we believe. He Holds us.
In your post~~We don't "take hold" of it. ven the momIt is freely gient we believe. He Holds us.

Your post contradicts, your own theology. It is given to those who believe!!!

So how is my comment above different than what you just said here?

 

[Douglas Summers]

32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

Then no one could ever be saved if "unbelief", was blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, as all are "unbelievers", until they do believe and are saved.

Those who don't believe the Gospel, don't have to say a word at all to have unbelief. Jesus plainly said... whoever "speaks a word" against the Holy Spirit...

Great teaching post, that anyone can understand.

 

[Douglas Summers]

Why is my quote different in your post?
Original~~We don't "take hold" of it. It is freely given the moment we believe. He Holds us.
In your post~~We don't "take hold" of it. ven the momIt is freely gient we believe. He Holds us.


So how is my comment above different than what you just said here?

It is our simple witness for Christ............Jesus Christ paid for your sins on the cross and died and rose again for you. Believe this and you shall be saved.

It is not...........Jesus Christ might have died for you and your sins, we don't know for sure though.

And "Yes" to salvation is only to those who believe. Sin is not the issue, it is the lack of eternal life due to never placing faith in Christ ALONE.
John 3:15~~New American Standard Bible
so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.

We are both saying the same thing. The reason of the misunderstanding is because you answered to what you thought I was saying and I did the same thing to you.

God died for all mens sins (all men) and it is a free Gift for all. (when Christ said it is finished) it was to the work that God sent Him to accompolish, to free man from the prison, slave and penalty of sin.. This was not a command (John 10:27-31) to Christ by the Father, but a mutual agreement (John 10:14-18) (The invisible God of heaven representing the visiblility of God on earth) (Heb. 1:1-3). But if you trample underfoot such a salvation, how will you exscape the rewards of sin? (Heb. 2:1-4). You have to believe to receive.

 

[JohnDB]

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