The Atonement: What did it REALLY Accomplish?

[JLB]

It is clearly shown IN THE CONTEXT of the passage.

Please show the scripture that says, someone must see Jesus in the flesh, and blaspheme the Holy Spirit, to be guilty of this.

iow, it doesn't matter WHEN the "whoever" speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him.

By saying this, you have agreed that the when can ne up until His return, thus agreeing with me, that today, whoever, whenever someone blasphemes the Holy Spirit...

...but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

Those people saw the miracles and attributed them to Satan.

Today, being the same.

Those who see the miracles that are done by those whom the Lord works through, and claim that the Holy Spirit is Satan doing the miracles
is guilty of blaspheming the Holy Spirit, yesterday, today and forever.

There is no such time constraint, as you claim.

but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.


JLB

 

[gr8grace3]

How about blasphemy of the Holy Spirit?

Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come. Matthew 12:32

Can you provide a verse that says," and they were judged according to their blasphemy of the Spirit?"

The Lord Jesus Christ was in hypostatic union at the time that verse was written. They were accusing Jesus Christ's works as being from demons. As Jesus Christ is no longer present,physically here in human form, doing works through the Holy Spirit...........It doesn't apply to us.

 

[gr8grace3]

hello gr8grace3, dirtfarmer here

What is the one word through out scripture that brings salvation to a person? is it not "believe, belief". If we don't believe can we have salvation? The answer is no, why? because we don't believe. What is the one word that expresses "don't believe", is it not unbelief. If death finds us in belief then we are saved. If death finds us still in unbelief, we have no salvation. What is that we must believe? that God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself, but id we don't believe that, are we saved?

Why was the Israelites cut off and not allowed to enter the promised land? Romans 11:20 "Well, because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith, be not highminded but fear." It was not because any sins other than unbelief.

Romans 11:20 is speaking of Israels client nation status. They were cut off from being Gods "go to" people to advance the Gospel. And if we get proud and highminded we will be cut off also. Not from salvation, but God will use a people who are HOT for Him to advance His Gospel of Grace.

The promised land was not salvation......it was a reward. Moses didn't get to see the promised land, yet we all know Moses was a saved man.

Acts 16:31~~The moment we believe we are saved, and forever saved.

We were bought with a price and we are no longer our own.........even if we go back to our old lifestyle. Loss of rewards,crowns,blessings,rank may happen. But eternal life is, well, eternal.

1 Cor 6:19-20~~New American Standard Bible
Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?

New American Standard Bible
For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body.

The Corinthians were not glorifying the Lord in their bodies at the time this was written. In fact, they were the worst of the worst at this point in time and Paul didn't warn them they were close to being " Cut off." He encouraged them that they were bought with a HIGH price and they are no longer their own.

 

[FreeGrace]

Please show the scripture that says, someone must see Jesus in the flesh, and blaspheme the Holy Spirit, to be guilty of this.

It's clearly the context. Please read it.

 

[Jim Parker]

If we, as believers, are to judge the angels, how do you reconcile the "holy angels" that are with him on the throne of his glory?

That is a totally different topic.
It has absolutely nothing to do with your baseless statement that "The judgment in Matthew 25:31-46 is the judgment of the nations as to how they treated God's chosen people during the 7 year tribulation period."

The judgment of the nations will bring an end to the "times of the Gentiles"

The judgment will bring an end to TIME.

They were always going to die physically.

They were created in the image and likeness of God. God doesn't die and they weren't created to die either. God created them, not Ford.

 

[gr8grace3]

It's clearly the context. Please read it.

I am of like mind sir. It has been a while since I looked into this and have forgotten the "in this age nor the age to come." Can you remind me of what the "age to come" is or what is meant by it?

If it is not for "us", what did he mean by, "Nor the age to come?"

 

[Douglas Summers]

Rev 20:15 tells us what consigns a person to the lake of fire: And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

So, it's not sin of any kind, but lack of possessing the gift of eternal life that gets one cast into the lake of fire.

Since God IS eternal life (1 Jn 5:20), to live with Him forever in eternity, one must possess His life. That is what qualifies one to live with God forever (Col 1:12).

ALL men are sinners by heredity or nature (in the spirit of man), (Rom. 5:12-21) The born again believer now has the Spirit of Christ, because, by Faith the born again believer, Believes Christ rose from the grave. Now I mentioned the resurrection first, because, even thou Christ gave His life for our sins, without the resurrection, the sacrifice alone would not have covered our sins. For the resurrection was God the Fathers approval, that the Sacrifice of The Son was sufficient to satisfy the demand of the Law, that the penalty for sin is death. (1 Peter 1:3) (Rom. 10:9) (Luke 24:1-53) (John 11:25) (ACTS 17:31) (Rom. 8:11) (1 Cor. 18:1-58) (Rom. 6:4).
There is only one thing that will keep you from seeing the face of God........To deny the Lord. Yes, Christ died for our sins, But even more than that, He is conforming us to the image of His Son. And as Son's, we will dwell in the House of the Lord forever.

About the book of works. The book of works are opened at the second resurrection (The Great white Throne Judgment) (Rev. 20:11-15) The Book of works are the works of the flesh that the self righteous use to justify their entrance into the Kingdom of God. The Book of life is where their name should have been, remember, this is the Judgment of the dead, and this resurrection is 1000 years after the end of the First resurrection. Scripture says there is no fear of those who were in the first resurrection about the second resurrection, in which gives the indication that there is a fear of the second. No one in the book of works is saved. You must be born again.

 

[dirtfarmer]

That is a totally different topic.
It has absolutely nothing to do with your baseless statement that "The judgment in Matthew 25:31-46 is the judgment of the nations as to how they treated God's chosen people during the 7 year tribulation period."

The judgment will bring an end to TIME.

They were created in the image and likeness of God. God doesn't die and they weren't created to die either. God created them, not Ford.

hello Jim Parker, dirtfarmer here

God is all powerful, God is all knowing, and God is omnipresent. Was Adam created with these attributes of God? Adam was created with flesh and blood, even Jesus in his resurrected body didn't have blood.

Adam could have never inherited that kingdom in his created state there had to be a change, physical death: 1 Corinthians 15:50 " Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."

 

[FreeGrace]

ALL men are sinners by heredity or nature (in the spirit of man), (Rom. 5:12-21) The born again believer now has the Spirit of Christ, because, by Faith the born again believer, Believes Christ rose from the grave. Now I mentioned the resurrection first, because, even thou Christ gave His life for our sins, without the resurrection, the sacrifice alone would not have covered our sins. For the resurrection was God the Fathers approval, that the Sacrifice of The Son was sufficient to satisfy the demand of the Law, that the penalty for sin is death. (1 Peter 1:3) (Rom. 10:9) (Luke 24:1-53) (John 11:25) (ACTS 17:31) (Rom. 8:11) (1 Cor. 18:1-58) (Rom. 6:4).
There is only one thing that will keep you from seeing the face of God........To deny the Lord. Yes, Christ died for our sins, But even more than that, He is conforming us to the image of His Son. And as Son's, we will dwell in the House of the Lord forever.

About the book of works. The book of works are opened at the second resurrection (The Great white Throne Judgment) (Rev. 20:11-15) The Book of works are the works of the flesh that the self righteous use to justify their entrance into the Kingdom of God. The Book of life is where their name should have been, remember, this is the Judgment of the dead, and this resurrection is 1000 years after the end of the First resurrection. Scripture says there is no fear of those who were in the first resurrection about the second resurrection, in which gives the indication that there is a fear of the second. No one in the book of works is saved. You must be born again.

I'm not sure how this relates to my point about the fact that it isn't sin that sends one to the lake of fire, but rather, not having received the free gift of eternal life.

Regarding your statement about what will keep one from 'seeing the face of the Lord', I think you've confused several verses.

Heb 12:14 - Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.

I see 2 possible ways to understand this verse. The word for "holiness" is translated elsewhere "sanctification", and can refer to the positional sanctification that all believers have by virtue of the sealing ministry of the Holy Spirit, who also places the believe "in Christ", per Eph 1:13.

Or, the verse can indicate that if believers are not living "set apart" (sanctified) lives, no one else will see the Lord, as in the believer won't be living in a Christ-like manner.

2 Tim 2:12 - If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;

This verse is about reward. Those believers who do endure will be rewarded by the privilege of reigning with Him in His kingdom, but...those believers who don't endure, will be denied that reward.

 

[JLB]

It's clearly the context. Please read it.

I read it.

The context is still the same.

24 Now when the Pharisees heard it they said, “This fellow does not cast out demons except by Beelzebub, the ruler of the demons.”

25 But Jesus knew their thoughts, and said to them: “Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand. 26 If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand? 27 And if I cast out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they shall be your judges. 28 But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you. 29 Or how can one enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house. 30 He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters abroad.


31 “Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come. Matthew 12:24-32

Jesus was casting out devils.

The Pharisee's said the spirit by which He was casting out devils was Beelzebub [Satan].

Jesus said that those who believe, would cast out devils.

And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; Mark 16:17


If someone today is casting out devils, and someone else calls the Spirit by which they are casting out devils, Satan, then they are blaspheming the Holy Spirit, by calling the Holy Spirit the Devil.

In Matthew 12:24-33 there is no such language that limits blaspheming the Holy Spirit, to the 3 1/2 years Jesus walked this earth in His ministry.

That is an assumption made by you.


My question to you:

If someone today, calls the Holy Spirit, the devil, is that blaspheming the Holy Spirit, based on the context of Matthew 12:24-32?


JLB

 

[smaller]

What did the atonement result in?

2 Corinthians 5:
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

If any of us are 'still imputing trespasses' to them, we don't know Jesus' Work.

Let's move to practical experience with an unbeliever, and SEE their condition:

2 Corinthians 4:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Who do we see in the above? Do we see "just" and "only" a person? No. We see the blind and the blinder. We see a captor and a captive.

Look some more. We'll see the same thing:

Acts 26:
18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Again, do we see just a person? No. We see the blinded and the blinder. We see a captor and a captive.

Look some more, even upon ourselves, prior to belief:

Ephesians 2:
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

The above 3 scriptures are identical, 2 Cor. 4:4, Acts 26:18, Eph. 2:2. The first one, true. God in Christ is NOT imputing trespasses to people.

But this does not mean God is NOT imputing trespasses. There is another party on the scriptural table to account for that is NOT mankind.

To me, the problem is obvious. Jesus did NOT die on the cross for the 'god of this world.' 2 Cor. 4:4. Jesus did NOT die on the cross for Satan, Acts 26:18. Jesus did NOT die on the cross for the "spirit of disobedience."

He died for mankind, and resists and rebukes the 'other party.'

As simple as this is to see, it won't be seen. All the time any of us are trying, quite vainly often, to convince any person of Jesus' Atonement, we never account for the "other party" for whom His Atonement is not only meaningless, but worthless.

It is not just a person we witness to. They are held by our enemy.

Our job, if we are functioning properly, is to DIVIDE one from the other. But if we don't see the "other" we're not of much use.

 

[Douglas Summers]

I see 2 possible ways to understand this verse. There in lies the problem, Not understanding. I really meant this post for gr8tegrace3. Sorry.

 

[Douglas Summers]

Did The Lord Jesus Christ pay for the sins of the world? Every single man, woman and child that ever lived? YES.

Its amazing that believers have not 'reconciled' that belief in their walk............I still get goose bumps remembering the day my right pastor teacher explained it to me and the light bulb went ON.

Very few believers know that The Lord Jesus Christ paid for ALL sin, and sin is not the issue for their judgement.

1 John 2:2~~New American Standard Bible
and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

Rev 20:13~~New American Standard Bible
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.(NOT SINS)

1. ALL men are sinners by heredity or nature (in the spirit of man), (Rom. 5:12-21) The born again believer now has the Spirit of Christ, because, by Faith the born again believer, Believes Christ rose from the grave. Now I mentioned the resurrection first, because, even thou Christ gave His life for our sins, without the resurrection, the sacrifice alone would not have covered our sins. For the resurrection was God the Fathers approval, that the Sacrifice of The Son was sufficient to satisfy the demand of the Law, that the penalty for sin is death. (1 Peter 1:3) (Rom. 10:9) (Luke 24:1-53) (John 11:25) (ACTS 17:31) (Rom. 8:11) (1 Cor. 18:1-58) (Rom. 6:4).
   There is only one thing that will keep you from seeing the face of God........To deny the Lord. Yes, Christ died for our sins, But even more than that, He is conforming us to the image of His Son. And as Son's, we will dwell in the House of the Lord forever.
   
   About the book of works. The book of works are opened at the second resurrection (The Great white Throne Judgment) (Rev. 20:11-15) The Book of works are the works of the flesh that the self righteous use to justify their entrance into the Kingdom of God. The Book of life is where their name should have been, remember, this is the Judgment of the dead, and this resurrection is 1000 years after the end of the First resurrection. Scripture says there is no fear of those who were in the first resurrection about the second resurrection, in which gives the indication that there is a fear of the second. No one in the book of works is saved. You must be born again.
   
   Douglas Summers, Yesterday at 11:13 PMEditDeleteReport
   #167+ Quote

 

[gr8grace3]

1. ALL men are sinners by heredity or nature (in the spirit of man), (Rom. 5:12-21) The born again believer now has the Spirit of Christ, because, by Faith the born again believer, Believes Christ rose from the grave. Now I mentioned the resurrection first, because, even thou Christ gave His life for our sins, without the resurrection, the sacrifice alone would not have covered our sins. For the resurrection was God the Fathers approval, that the Sacrifice of The Son was sufficient to satisfy the demand of the Law, that the penalty for sin is death. (1 Peter 1:3) (Rom. 10:9) (Luke 24:1-53) (John 11:25) (ACTS 17:31) (Rom. 8:11) (1 Cor. 18:1-58) (Rom. 6:4).
   There is only one thing that will keep you from seeing the face of God........To deny the Lord. Yes, Christ died for our sins, But even more than that, He is conforming us to the image of His Son. And as Son's, we will dwell in the House of the Lord forever.
   
   About the book of works. The book of works are opened at the second resurrection (The Great white Throne Judgment) (Rev. 20:11-15) The Book of works are the works of the flesh that the self righteous use to justify their entrance into the Kingdom of God. The Book of life is where their name should have been, remember, this is the Judgment of the dead, and this resurrection is 1000 years after the end of the First resurrection. Scripture says there is no fear of those who were in the first resurrection about the second resurrection, in which gives the indication that there is a fear of the second. No one in the book of works is saved. You must be born again.
   
   Douglas Summers, Yesterday at 11:13 PMEditDeleteReport
   #167+ Quote

The Lord Jesus Christ said," It is finished." while He was still alive and breathing. All sin was paid when the Father forsook the Son.Salvation of the spirit and soul of a man was finished at this point. His physical death and resurrection makes our resurrection into glorified bodies possible. But the sin debt was paid during the 3 hours of darkness when the Father separated from the Son.

If we believe that the Lord Jesus Christ died for our sins and rose again...........we will be saved.

And I agree that the book of works is unbelievers chance to "plead their case" based upon their OWN righteousness. And they are judged according to their self righteous works done from the power of their flesh.............and it doesn't measure up to Christ's prefect work on the Cross.

 

[Douglas Summers]

The Lord Jesus Christ said," It is finished." while He was still alive and breathing. All sin was paid when the Father forsook the Son.Salvation of the spirit and soul of a man was finished at this point. His physical death and resurrection makes our resurrection into glorified bodies possible. But the sin debt was paid during the 3 hours of darkness when the Father separated from the Son.

If we believe that the Lord Jesus Christ died for our sins and rose again...........we will be saved.

Yes, I agree. But this only applies to, "those who believe", Yes?

 

[FreeGrace]

I read it.

The context is still the same.

Of course. Context never changes. And the context shows exactly what the unforgiven sin is.

 

[FreeGrace]

My question to you:

If someone today, calls the Holy Spirit, the devil, is that blaspheming the Holy Spirit, based on the context of Matthew 12:24-32?
JLB

Have you known of anyone who has done this?? I cannot imagine that anyone would think such a thing. That didn't happen even in Jesus' time. The Pharisees attributed the miracles of Jesus to the devil. They didn't call the Holy Spirit the devil.

I doubt your question has any validity.

 

[Jim Parker]

God is all powerful, God is all knowing, and God is omnipresent. Was Adam created with these attributes of God? Adam was created with flesh and blood, even Jesus in his resurrected body didn't have blood.

ANd your point is.........????

Adam could have never inherited that kingdom in his created state there had to be a change, physical death

I didn't say anything about "inheriting the kingdom." I said: "They were created in the image and likeness of God. God doesn't die and they weren't created to die either."
In the midst of the garden was the tree of life which A&E were allowed to eat.
When they were cast out of the Garden, they no longer had access to the tree of life.
The fact is that Adam was placed in "that kingdom" to tend it. He was created to rule over paradise. (Gen 2:15)
That was BEFORE A&E sinned.
Once they sinned, they were subject to death and corruption and could not return to paradise.

 

[gr8grace3]

Yes, I agree. But this only applies to, "those who believe", Yes?

No. The Lord Jesus Christ died for everyone, without exception. He paid every persons sin debt, whether they ever believe or not.1 John 2:2~~New American Standard Bible
and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

To gain eternal life....................is to believe What the Lord Jesus Christ did for us personally.Acts 16:31

It is our simple witness for Christ............Jesus Christ paid for your sins on the cross and died and rose again for you. Believe this and you shall be saved.

It is not...........Jesus Christ might have died for you and your sins, we don't know for sure though.

And "Yes" to salvation is only to those who believe. Sin is not the issue, it is the lack of eternal life due to never placing faith in Christ ALONE.
John 3:15~~New American Standard Bible
so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.

 

[Jim Parker]

No. The Lord Jesus Christ died for everyone, without exception. He paid every persons sin debt, whether they ever believe or not.1 John 2:2~~New American Standard Bible
and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

To gain eternal life....................is to believe What the Lord Jesus Christ did for us personally.Acts 16:31

It is our simple witness for Christ............Jesus Christ paid for your sins on the cross and died and rose again for you. Believe this and you shall be saved.

It is not...........Jesus Christ might have died for you and your sins, we don't know for sure though.

And "Yes" to salvation is only to those who believe. Sin is not the issue, it is the lack of eternal life due to never placing faith in Christ ALONE.
John 3:15~~New American Standard Bible
so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.

Works for me.