The Atonement: What did it REALLY Accomplish?

[dirtfarmer]

That is not what scripture says.
That is a fabrication created to appear to support denominational doctrine.
It is a modern invention that was never taught in the early church.
There is not one single hint of a mention of the tribulation in Mat 25.
There is absolutely nothing mentioned about " the judgment of the nations as to how they treated God's chosen people during the 7 year tribulation period"
The entire passage is a very clear description of how Jesus will judge mankind when He comes again.

John 5:28-29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
That is exactly what Jesus is talking about in Mat 25. At the second coming of Christ, the dead will be raised and all of mankind will be judged according to their deeds.

The passage is about baptism, not belief.
You are forcing notions into the passage that do not belong there. You are adding to the scripture to make it appear to conform to your denominational teaching.
1Co 4:6 (NKJV) I have applied all this to myself and Apol'los for your benefit, brethren, that you may learn by us not to go beyond what is written,

You are espousing a false differentiation between "fellowship" and "relationship."
If you do not have fellowship with God, neither do you have relationship with God.
Whoever taught you that is playing word games.
All of us sin and fall short of the glory of God which we were created to bear.
That's what confession is for.
1Jo 1:9 (NKJV) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

BUT: if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die. ( EZE 18:24 )


Are you saying that no believer ever sins? That is absurd. If it were true, then God would not have commanded us to confess our sins. (Jas 5:16)

cute; penalty - power - presence.
From Whomever you got that from is good at the rhetorical use of alliteration but lacking in theological content.
(1) If you are referring to death as the "penalty for sin" you are mistaken. Death is the consequence of sin. Sin separates man from God who is the only source of life. If you are not connected to God (abiding in the vine) then you die. It's not a penalty; it's a natural consequence.
God told Adam; "...of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die." (Gen 2:17 NKJV) God did NOT say, "in the day that you eat of it I will kill you."
(2) If you have been saved from the power of sin then why do you still sin?(3) So will all of mankind. The reign of sin will come to an end when Jesus returns.
Sin is the devil's tool to separate man from God. At the time of His return, there will be no more being united to or separated from God in Christ.
(3) Sin is the tool of the Devil which he uses to separate man from God. When Jesus returns, that tool will no longer be of any use because there will be no more time for joining to or separating from God, in Christ. There will be no more opportunity to do good or evil.

But, when we get to heaven, no one's opinion will matter any more.

BUT: please remember:
Jas 2:17 So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.
Jas 2:24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

So, when ever you hear someone say that all you have to do is believe and no works are necessary, you're hearing a liar or a fool.

iakov the fool

hello Jim Parker, dirtfarmer here

1 Corinthians 6:3 " Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to life". In verse 31 of Matthew 25 states "When the son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:" If we, as believers, are to judge the angels, how do you reconcile the "holy angels" that are with him on the throne of his glory? Is not the throne of his glory the throne of David, which has to do with the earthly kingdom?
Jeremiah 23:5 " Behold , the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth."

Verse 34 states, "Then shall the King say". Is Christ the king of the Church or the bridegroom? to whom we will be the bride? We will rule with Christ in his kingdom. He will be the bridegroom to the Church, not the King.

All nations in verse 32 is a racial term (Gentiles) not an organizational term.

Was sin judged and defeated on the Cross: John 16:11 " OF judgment because the prince of this world is judged" When we as believers stand before the "Bema seat", it will not be to determine or entrance into heaven, that was established the moment that we believed. That which is judged at the "Bema seat" is works to determine the rewards that we will receive, not entrance into heaven.

The judgment of the nations will bring an end to the "times of the Gentiles" Luke 21:24 " And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled".

As to your reference to Genesis 2:17 ; I didn't say that God said " I will kill you". But speaking of that verse, did God lie when he told them "the day ye eat there of ye shall surely die" It is my belief and understanding that immediately after they ate they died spiritually. They were always going to die physically. In 1 Corinthians 15:50 we are told that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, neither doth corruption inherit incorruption." If Adam and Eve had never sinned they needed to die physically or be changed in a moment or the twinkling of an eye." 1 Corinthians 15:52

 

[gr8grace3]

Let's begin with the basics first. If reconciliation means salvation, then 2 Cor 5:19 means that everyone is saved. Agree or disagree? If there is disagreement, please explain why there is, specifically.

Second, to your question; it is a non sequitur. Since 2 Cor 5:19 says that "God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself", then there cannot be any who have not been reconciled to God.

So, there is no answer to your question, because there is no reality to your question.

Please ask a question from reality, and I will be more than happy to answer.

Did The Lord Jesus Christ pay for the sins of the world? Every single man, woman and child that ever lived? YES.

Its amazing that believers have not 'reconciled' that belief in their walk............I still get goose bumps remembering the day my right pastor teacher explained it to me and the light bulb went ON.

Very few believers know that The Lord Jesus Christ paid for ALL sin, and sin is not the issue for their judgement.

1 John 2:2~~New American Standard Bible
and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

Rev 20:13~~New American Standard Bible
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.(NOT SINS)

 

[dirtfarmer]

Did The Lord Jesus Christ pay for the sins of the world? Every single man, woman and child that ever lived? YES.

Its amazing that believers have not 'reconciled' that belief in their walk............I still get goose bumps remembering the day my right pastor teacher explained it to me and the light bulb went ON.

Very few believers know that The Lord Jesus Christ paid for ALL sin, and sin is not the issue for their judgement.

1 John 2:2~~New American Standard Bible
and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

Rev 20:13~~New American Standard Bible
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.(NOT SINS)

hello gr8grace3, dirtfarmer here

It is my belief that "sins" is the fruit of sin. The sin of unbelief is what consigns a person to the lake of fire if their physical life ends with them still in unbelief. Christ was made sin for us that we might be made the righteousness of God in Christ.
Have a blessed day.
dirtfarmer

 

[Douglas Summers]

Then your view must be in alignment with the universalists, who believe that everyone will go to heaven.

It is not my view, nor does the Scriptures teach universalism. But salvation includes all that the Lord has done for those that He has Called. All those that have been called by God, who have converted and have been regenerated by God (are Sanctified). There is no man anywhere that can sanctify another man, God alone sanctifies us. In Scripture, the word saint means sanctified. All born again believers are saints or sanctified, it means the same thing. We can not decide who is to be proclaimed a saint. I say this, for I saw thousands of people worshiping and praying (not sure to who) to canonize a person to be a saint? I felt in my soul a godly anger and corruption and defilement of self will into the sphere of divine authority. I have felt this a couple of times before as the lord rebuked those in the LDS trying to convert me with their doctrines.

The visible church has failed to believe Christ is calling out His body (The Church). Christ is not saving the world at this time, He is calling out a people of His own, and when that body is complete, Then He will build up again the Kingdom and the throne of David. (Acts 15:13-18) (Eph. 2:14-18)

 

[Douglas Summers]

What possible proof would that provide, even if true??? He also said Fenton's translation claimed 3:16-21 was not in early manuscripts. Which is just flat out wrong. Fenton never claimed that about these verses.

Your claim was/is that John 3:16-21 was not in early manuscripts of John's Gospel. Yet the evidence proves it was.

Tertullian quotes 3:16 before the 3rd Century, 1200 years before the first Gutenberg Bible was printed.

Irenaeus and Clement of Alexandria also quote from verses 17-21 before the 3rd Century begins.

They were in the early manuscripts, clearly. Some guy saying they weren't on his website isn't proof they weren't original to John.

Do a thorough study of all transcripts. I can find nowhere in the Scriptures where God loves the world....just the opposite. John 3:16 is the only one and is contrary to His teaching about this world to His saints.

hello Jim Parker, dirtfarmer here

1 Corinthians 6:3 " Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to life". In verse 31 of Matthew 25 states "When the son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:" If we, as believers, are to judge the angels, how do you reconcile the "holy angels" that are with him on the throne of his glory? Is not the throne of his glory the throne of David, which has to do with the earthly kingdom?
Jeremiah 23:5 " Behold , the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth."

Verse 34 states, "Then shall the King say". Is Christ the king of the Church or the bridegroom? to whom we will be the bride? We will rule with Christ in his kingdom. He will be the bridegroom to the Church, not the King.

All nations in verse 32 is a racial term (Gentiles) not an organizational term.

Was sin judged and defeated on the Cross: John 16:11 " OF judgment because the prince of this world is judged" When we as believers stand before the "Bema seat", it will not be to determine or entrance into heaven, that was established the moment that we believed. That which is judged at the "Bema seat" is works to determine the rewards that we will receive, not entrance into heaven.

The judgment of the nations will bring an end to the "times of the Gentiles" Luke 21:24 " And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled".

As to your reference to Genesis 2:17 ; I didn't say that God said " I will kill you". But speaking of that verse, did God lie when he told them "the day ye eat there of ye shall surely die" It is my belief and understanding that immediately after they ate they died spiritually. They were always going to die physically. In 1 Corinthians 15:50 we are told that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, neither doth corruption inherit incorruption." If Adam and Eve had never sinned they needed to die physically or be changed in a moment or the twinkling of an eye." 1 Corinthians 15:52

Thanks DF, very few understand this. I hope you understand the rest of the Doctrines of Christ, or I will be the only odd man out.

In Christ
Douglas Summers

 

[dirtfarmer]

Do a thorough study of all transcripts. I can find nowhere in the Scriptures where God loves the world....just the opposite. John 3:16 is the only one and is contrary to His teaching about this world to His saints.

Thanks DF, very few understand this. I hope you understand the rest of the Doctrines of Christ, or I will be the only odd man out.

In Christ
Douglas Summers

hello Douglas Summers, dirtfarmer here

I had rather be alone in Christ than with the "in crowd" that are spiritually dead.

Have a good day in Christ
dirtfarmer

 

[FreeGrace]

Did The Lord Jesus Christ pay for the sins of the world? Every single man, woman and child that ever lived? YES.

Its amazing that believers have not 'reconciled' that belief in their walk............I still get goose bumps remembering the day my right pastor teacher explained it to me and the light bulb went ON.

Very few believers know that The Lord Jesus Christ paid for ALL sin, and sin is not the issue for their judgement.

1 John 2:2~~New American Standard Bible
and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

Rev 20:13~~New American Standard Bible
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.(NOT SINS)

Amen!!

 

[FreeGrace]

hello gr8grace3, dirtfarmer here

It is my belief that "sins" is the fruit of sin. The sin of unbelief is what consigns a person to the lake of fire if their physical life ends with them still in unbelief. Christ was made sin for us that we might be made the righteousness of God in Christ.
Have a blessed day.
dirtfarmer

Hi dirtfarmer,

Rev 20:15 tells us what consigns a person to the lake of fire: And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

So, it's not sin of any kind, but lack of possessing the gift of eternal life that gets one cast into the lake of fire.

Since God IS eternal life (1 Jn 5:20), to live with Him forever in eternity, one must possess His life. That is what qualifies one to live with God forever (Col 1:12).

 

[chessman]

I can find nowhere in the Scriptures where God loves the world....just the opposite. John 3:16 is the only one and is contrary to His teaching about this world to His saints.

There is nothing stated in John 3:16 that's contrary to His teaching about His love for this world in other Scripture(s). Take John's epistle for example:

1 John 4:9 (LEB) By this the love of God is revealed in us: that God sent his one and only Son into the world in order that we may live through him. ​

1 John 4 verse 9 is John essentially just restating John 3:16:

John 3:16 (LEB) For in this way God loved the world, so that he gave his one and only Son, in order that everyone who believes in him will not perish, but will have eternal life. ​

I don't understand what you think is contradictory about John 3:16 to His other teachings:

1. Did God send His one and only Son into the World??? Yes.
2. Did God do that (1) so that we may live through Him??? Yes.
3. Does the fact of 1 and 2 reveal God's love for the World??? Yes.

4. Did God give his one and only Son in order that everyone in the World (Jew or Gentile) who believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life??? Yes.
5. Does the fact of 4 reveal to us the way in which God loved the World??? Yes it does.

1 John 4:14 (LEB) And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.​

Does The Father sending The Son to be the Savior of the World provide testimony that God loves the world??? Yes it does.

Titus 3:4-5 (LEB) But when the kindness and love for mankind of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not by deeds of righteousness that we have done, but because of his mercy, through the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit,​

Did God show His kindness and love for mankind in the world by the appearing of God our Savior in the world??? Yes.

John 3:16's message of the Love of God toward the world is found all over the N.T.

Are you in the world? Does God love you?

 

[gr8grace3]

hello gr8grace3, dirtfarmer here

It is my belief that "sins" is the fruit of sin. The sin of unbelief is what consigns a person to the lake of fire if their physical life ends with them still in unbelief. Christ was made sin for us that we might be made the righteousness of God in Christ.
Have a blessed day.
dirtfarmer

Freegrace gives a great answer and I agree with his statement.

Technically, those who have never believed, are not judged according to their unbelief. They are judged according to their deeds (Rev 20:13) because they have never believed and do not posses eternal life.........ALL sin, including unbelief, has been paid for.

The Lord Jesus Christ has reconciled the WHOLE world to Himself. So that any man ,anywhere, at any time can be saved the moment they believe.......Acts 16:31.

2 Cor 5:19~~New American Standard Bible
namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

Acts 16:31~~New American Standard Bible
They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved,(that goes for) you and your household(anyone and everyone who believes)."

 

[JLB]

Very few believers know that The Lord Jesus Christ paid for ALL sin, and sin is not the issue for their judgement.

How about blasphemy of the Holy Spirit?

Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come. Matthew 12:32

 

[JLB]

There is nothing stated in John 3:16 that's contrary to His teaching about His love for this world in other Scripture(s). Take John's epistle for example:

1 John 4:9 (LEB) By this the love of God is revealed in us: that God sent his one and only Son into the world in order that we may live through him. ​

1 John 4 verse 9 is John essentially just restating John 3:16:

John 3:16 (LEB) For in this way God loved the world, so that he gave his one and only Son, in order that everyone who believes in him will not perish, but will have eternal life. ​

I don't understand what you think is contradictory about John 3:16 to His other teachings:

1. Did God send His one and only Son into the World??? Yes.
2. Did God do that (1) so that we may live through Him??? Yes.
3. Does the fact of 1 and 2 reveal God's love for the World??? Yes.

4. Did God give his one and only Son in order that everyone in the World (Jew or Gentile) who believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life??? Yes.
5. Does the fact of 4 reveal to us the way in which God loved the World??? Yes it does.

1 John 4:14 (LEB) And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.​

Does The Father sending The Son to be the Savior of the World provide testimony that God loves the world??? Yes it does.

Titus 3:4-5 (LEB) But when the kindness and love for mankind of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not by deeds of righteousness that we have done, but because of his mercy, through the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit,​

Did God show His kindness and love for mankind in the world by the appearing of God our Savior in the world??? Yes.

John 3:16's message of the Love of God toward the world is found all over the N.T.

Are you in the world? Does God love you?

I hear what your saying, Chessman, and I agree with you.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

I also hear what Douglas is saying, and I also tend to agree with him, if I am understanding him correctly.

Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. James 4:4



God loves people.

We also are to love people.
We are not to be in relationship with ungodly people, but must still love them.

9 I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. 10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person. 1 Corinthians 5:9-11

God hates sin and evil.
God loves people, even if they are sinners, and unbelievers.

But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, [Thank God!] Christ died for us. Romans 5:8



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

How about blasphemy of the Holy Spirit?

Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come. Matthew 12:32

Those who consider the actual context for that verse know that such a sin cannot be committed today.

Jesus was very specific about it. Those Pharisees and others who attributed the very miracles that they SAW with their own eyes to the power of Satan.

Who today has seen Jesus in the flesh performing any miracles? No one. So no one can commit this particular sin.

 

[JLB]

Those who consider the actual context for that verse know that such a sin cannot be committed today.

Jesus was very specific about it. Those Pharisees and others who attributed the very miracles that they SAW with their own eyes to the power of Satan.

Who today has seen Jesus in the flesh performing any miracles? No one. So no one can commit this particular sin.

Please show the scripture that says, someone must see Jesus in the flesh, and blaspheme the Holy Spirit, to be guilty of this.

...but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

Whoever refers to anybody.

I see, so some one today who speaks a word against the Holy Spirit in Blasphemy, will not be charged with blasphemy?

[edited, staff]

JLB

 

[Douglas Summers]

I had rather be alone in Christ than with the "in crowd" that are spiritually dead.

Yes, but we are to contend for the faith, teaching not as from man, but that it is received as the word of God. ((1 Thess. 2:10-14) (2 Thess. 2:13-17) And that is possible only by a born again believer who is called to do so. (calling and election and gifts of the Spirit) 1 Corinthians chapter 12. (Romans 8:28-39)

With peace and joy in the Truth and a readiness to contend for the faith in the Spirit of Grace.
in Christ
Douglas Summers

 

[chessman]

I also hear what Douglas is saying, and I also tend to agree with him, if I am understanding him correctly.

I disagreed with Douglas Summers about a very specific point he made. Namely that John 3:16-21 was not part of the earliest and most reliable manuscripts of John's Gospel account. There is absolutely no reason to believe that specific claim.

 

[JLB]

I disagreed with Douglas Summers about a very specific point he made. Namely that John 3:16-21 was not part of the earliest and most reliable manuscripts of John's Gospel account. There is absolutely no reason to believe that specific claim.

Absolutely.

 

[Douglas Summers]

Please show the scripture that says, someone must see Jesus in the flesh, and blaspheme the Holy Spirit, to be guilty of this.

...but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

I believe a better understanding might be, anyone who see's the work of the Holy Spirit (knowing so) and assigns it as a work of Satan to discredit the work of God, is blasphemy not forgiven. This is not hard to imagine, how many times have you seen people pray to the Lord to heal a critically hospitalized loved one? And when there loved one was healed, they gave the credit to the Doctor instead, and the Lord is forgotten. But when in church, they give a testimony of how the Lord healed that person, but only for the reason as to make it look like the Lord favors them (pride) and nothing more. I have seen it.

 

[FreeGrace]

Please show the scripture that says, someone must see Jesus in the flesh, and blaspheme the Holy Spirit, to be guilty of this.

It is clearly shown IN THE CONTEXT of the passage.

...but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

iow, it doesn't matter WHEN the "whoever" speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him.

Whoever refers to anybody.

Right. Anybody who speaks against the Holy Spirit. IN THE CONTEXT of what the passage says.

Those people saw the miracles and attributed them to Satan.

[edited, staff]

 

[dirtfarmer]

Freegrace gives a great answer and I agree with his statement.

Technically, those who have never believed, are not judged according to their unbelief. They are judged according to their deeds (Rev 20:13) because they have never believed and do not posses eternal life.........ALL sin, including unbelief, has been paid for.

The Lord Jesus Christ has reconciled the WHOLE world to Himself. So that any man ,anywhere, at any time can be saved the moment they believe.......Acts 16:31.

2 Cor 5:19~~New American Standard Bible
namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

Acts 16:31~~New American Standard Bible
They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved,(that goes for) you and your household(anyone and everyone who believes)."

hello gr8grace3, dirtfarmer here

What is the one word through out scripture that brings salvation to a person? is it not "believe, belief". If we don't believe can we have salvation? The answer is no, why? because we don't believe. What is the one word that expresses "don't believe", is it not unbelief. If death finds us in belief then we are saved. If death finds us still in unbelief, we have no salvation. What is that we must believe? that God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself, but id we don't believe that, are we saved?

Why was the Israelites cut off and not allowed to enter the promised land? Romans 11:20 "Well, because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith, be not highminded but fear." It was not because any sins other than unbelief.