dirtfarmer
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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JohnDB
Member
Still don't know what it is...
Douglas Summers
Member
- Morphological Coding Schemes - BibleWorks
www.bibleworks.com/bw9help/bwh43_Codes.htm
An Overview of Morphological Coding Schemes . BibleWorks contains a number ofmorphological database versions for the Hebrew OT and Greek NT and the LXX, as well as ...
Douglas Summers
Member
The Ferrar Trenton Bible Translation has John 3:16-21 in brackets to show that the verse was added at sometime by the Translators. It appears that John 3:16 was not in the original Gutenberg Bible. And in all of God's instruction about the born again believer and this world is to come out of it, do not love it, Do not expect to live in this world, for He is going to destroy it and all who love the world. The infallibility of Scripture does not count for translations, but only for the original writings.
chessman
Member
The reason verses 16-21 is in brackets in that 1900 translation is the same reason black text (not red) is used in red-letter Bibles. It was Fenton's way of distinguishing those verses as The Apostle John speaking, not Jesus. Mr. Fenton knew it was in all manuscripts. He just thought it was John's words about Jesus, not Jesus Himself speaking. Whoever told you those verses were added is just as wrong as you are about the translation's author. It's Ferrar Fenton, not Trenton.
Additionally, numerous Early Church Fathers writing at the beginning of the 2nd Century quoted directly from verses within 16-21. Just as they did verses proceeding and following them.
Atonement, in the New Testament, is only used once in the King James, and not at all in the New King James.
atonement, reconciliation - Strong's G2643 - katallagē
- exchange
- of the business of money changers, exchanging equivalent values
- of the business of money changers, exchanging equivalent values
- adjustment of a difference, reconciliation, restoration to favour
- in the NT of the restoration of the favour of God to sinners that repent and put their trust in the expiatory death of Christ
- in the NT of the restoration of the favour of God to sinners that repent and put their trust in the expiatory death of Christ
This word is rendered as propitiation is Hebrews.
Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. Hebrews 2:17
- And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement. Romans 5:11 KJV
- And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation. Romans 5:11 NKJV
- And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation. Romans 5:11 NASB
6 For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. 10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11 And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation. Romans 5:6-11
His death of atonement; reconciliation, reconciled us back to God.
21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. Colossians 1:21-23
JLB
Jim Parker said: ↑
"Please define reconciliation"
My answer:
Gladly.
The word in 2 Cor 5:19 is: katallassō
1) to change, exchange, as coins for others of equivalent value
1a) to reconcile (those who are at variance)
1b) return to favour with, be reconciled to one
1c) to receive one into favour
It has to do with the removal of the sin barrier between God and man. That allows God's grace to be extended to mankind, since God's justice has been atoned (propitiated) by the cross work of Christ and paying the sin debt of mankind.
Reconciliation is not salvation, or, according to 2 Cor 5:19, everyone will be saved. Which is wrong.
Douglas Summers
Member
No one told me. I suspected the Scripture because, no where in the Scriptures does God say He loved this world nor should we love it, for if we love this world and the things in the world, the love of the Father is not in us. (1 John 2:15-17). Show me in Scripture where God says He loves this world? (other than 3:16) The brackets in the Ferrar Fenton translation used the brackets indicating that the translator added to the Authentic New Testament (in smaller print) below the main body, showing that 3:16-21 was added in some point in time. God is going to destroy this world, not only the government of people under the principles of Satan, but the earth itself, Revelation's Chapters 21 and 22; Gen. 6:1-8.
chessman
Member
No it doesn't.
Here's a scanned page of the Ferrar Fenton Translation. The note at the bottom is about a portion of verse 3:13, not 3:16-21.
Douglas Summers
Member
- John 3:16 were not in the original manuscripts. - ISRAEL ELECT
israelect.com/reference/WillieMartin/John316.htm
When I first heard that John 3:16 was added at some point in time and that it was not in the original, ... all the verses from John 3:16 forward to John 3:21 ...
chessman
Member
That's simply some guy's website making the same mistake you are making. The bracketing DOES NOT mean that Fenton thought that passage (or any of the many others he puts in brackets) was not original to The Gospel as recorded by St. John. He specifically tells us why he puts various passages in brackets. Like I said (and proved), Fenton thought verses 16-21 were John's words versus a quotation from Jesus. That in no way shape or form indicates Fenton thought someone else added the verses to John's account after John died.
Douglas Summers
Member
Hi Grace, Salvation is the great inclusive word that includes; righteousness, sanctification, redemption, substitution, and reconciliation,
Let's begin with the basics first. If reconciliation means salvation, then 2 Cor 5:19 means that everyone is saved. Agree or disagree? If there is disagreement, please explain why there is, specifically.
Second, to your question; it is a non sequitur. Since 2 Cor 5:19 says that "God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself", then there cannot be any who have not been reconciled to God.
So, there is no answer to your question, because there is no reality to your question.
Please ask a question from reality, and I will be more than happy to answer.
Then your view must be in alignment with the universalists, who believe that everyone will go to heaven.
Douglas Summers
Member
You have to read all of it. He says 3:16 is not in the first Gutenberg Bible. I have ordered The Gutenberg to see if it is so. I'm not saying God does not love His own, but that He does not love this world, He is going to destroy this world, it's government, the people who love it and the earth itself.
Jim Parker
Member
That is not what scripture says.
That is a fabrication created to appear to support denominational doctrine.
It is a modern invention that was never taught in the early church.
There is not one single hint of a mention of the tribulation in Mat 25.
There is absolutely nothing mentioned about " the judgment of the nations as to how they treated God's chosen people during the 7 year tribulation period"
The entire passage is a very clear description of how Jesus will judge mankind when He comes again.
John 5:28-29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
That is exactly what Jesus is talking about in Mat 25. At the second coming of Christ, the dead will be raised and all of mankind will be judged according to their deeds.
The passage is about baptism, not belief.
You are forcing notions into the passage that do not belong there. You are adding to the scripture to make it appear to conform to your denominational teaching.
1Co 4:6 (NKJV) I have applied all this to myself and Apol'los for your benefit, brethren, that you may learn by us not to go beyond what is written,
You are espousing a false differentiation between "fellowship" and "relationship."
If you do not have fellowship with God, neither do you have relationship with God.
Whoever taught you that is playing word games.
All of us sin and fall short of the glory of God which we were created to bear.
That's what confession is for.
1Jo 1:9 (NKJV) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
BUT: if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die. ( EZE 18:24 )
Are you saying that no believer ever sins? That is absurd. If it were true, then God would not have commanded us to confess our sins. (Jas 5:16)
cute; penalty - power - presence.
From Whomever you got that from is good at the rhetorical use of alliteration but lacking in theological content.
(1) If you are referring to death as the "penalty for sin" you are mistaken. Death is the consequence of sin. Sin separates man from God who is the only source of life. If you are not connected to God (abiding in the vine) then you die. It's not a penalty; it's a natural consequence.
God told Adam; "...of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die." (Gen 2:17 NKJV) God did NOT say, "in the day that you eat of it I will kill you."
(2) If you have been saved from the power of sin then why do you still sin?(3) So will all of mankind. The reign of sin will come to an end when Jesus returns.
Sin is the devil's tool to separate man from God. At the time of His return, there will be no more being united to or separated from God in Christ.
(3) Sin is the tool of the Devil which he uses to separate man from God. When Jesus returns, that tool will no longer be of any use because there will be no more time for joining to or separating from God, in Christ. There will be no more opportunity to do good or evil.
But, when we get to heaven, no one's opinion will matter any more.
BUT: please remember:
Jas 2:17 So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.
Jas 2:24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
So, when ever you hear someone say that all you have to do is believe and no works are necessary, you're hearing a liar or a fool.
iakov the fool
Jim Parker
Member
That Bible was begun in the 19th century and published in 1903.
The most reliable and oldest manuscripts were found AFTER that.
Most modern translations are better than that one. (RSV, NKJV, NASB,)
The oldest and most reliable GREEK manuscripts (PRIOR to any translation) have john 3:16.
chessman
Member
What possible proof would that provide, even if true??? He also said Fenton's translation claimed 3:16-21 was not in early manuscripts. Which is just flat out wrong. Fenton never claimed that about these verses.
Your claim was/is that John 3:16-21 was not in early manuscripts of John's Gospel. Yet the evidence proves it was.
Tertullian quotes 3:16 before the 3rd Century, 1200 years before the first Gutenberg Bible was printed.
Irenaeus and Clement of Alexandria also quote from verses 17-21 before the 3rd Century begins.
They were in the early manuscripts, clearly. Some guy saying they weren't on his website isn't proof they weren't original to John.