The Atonement: What did it REALLY Accomplish?

[rogerg]

I've never heard this proposed before. I don't even think the divine nature of Christ has faith. Hebrews 11:1 Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. If one believe the divine nature of Christ is all knowing and the Bible says He is, then there is nothing unseen to Him. Therefore, Christ's does not have faith; rather, knowledge of all things. If Christ does not have faith He cannot have faith for us.
I suppose Christ's human nature could have faith.

[Gal 2:16 KJV]
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

how me ANY theologian that says Christ believes for us. This concept unknown to me.

I didn't say that Christ believes for us. I said that Christ was faithful to the tasks set before Him by the Father to
provide salvation. We are given faith in Christ as a gift from that faithfulness. Please see Gal 2:16 above.

• John 6:29 Jesus answered, “This is the work of God: that you believe [adhere to, trust in, rely on, and have faith] in the One whom He has sent.” .... says that YOU believe, not Christ believe for you

Yes we believe, but again, per John 6:29, it is God's work that we do, that is, if by it we gain a faith/trust solely in Christ as Savior and not ourselves or our actions in any way.

"Include" is not a precise term. Our faith causes use to do works. Works are the result of faith. They do not save us, but you if do not have works this is evidence that one does not believe. Belief and obedience are synonymous are are unbelief/disobedience.

Our faith should most definitely NOT include any work on our part to achieve salvation. Work is acceptable, even called for as a result of our faith, but not to justify ourselves, which, if we're claiming that our faith is what saves us, we would need to provide too - in that case, can't have one without the other.

These verses do not prove that we are saved by Christ's faith. Just that faith is not saving faith if there are no works.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? ...
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Don't understand? Aren't those enough to prove that if we are to believe that we're saved by our faith, then
we need to provide works too - that the two, faith and works, cannot then be separated?
But, if faith is a gift to us from the fruit of the Spirit, then, faithfulness and works have been taken care of
by Christ and we receive faith as a gift, with nothing, no effort, nada, left to us to accomplish.

Aside: I am at the point that I forget what the point we are discussing is.... LOL ... too tired to proof read ...

Yeah, no problem. I do that all of the time myself

 

[Fastfredy0]

[Gal 2:16 KJV]
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

ah, there's the problem (IMO) ... you are using the lousy (IMO) KJV. For a second I thought you had made your point as the KJV verse you sited does say "by the faith of Jesus Christ".
The NKJV rephrases the KJV which uses "by the faith of Jesus Christ"):
Gal 2:16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

Other versions do NOT phrase it as "by the faith of Jesus Christ"
Gal 2:16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified. ESV
Gal 2:16 know that no one is justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ. And we have believed in Christ Jesus so that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no human being will be justified. HCSB
nevertheless, knowing that a person is not justified by works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the Law; since by works of the Law no flesh will be justified. NASB

 

[rogerg]

Perhaps you mean Christ's 'faithfulness' (obedience?) has saved us rather than Christ's faith is given to us to save us.

Yes, it is Christ's faithfulness that saves us, not our faith in Him. It is a result of His faithfulness that we are given faith - faith in Christ. Because of Christ, we, through the Spirit, are given the gift of faith in Christ. If I said or implied otherwise, it wasn't my intention to do so. Now I'm curious, which post are you referring to - not saying I didn't but I'd like to see it so I don't repeat it

[Gal 2:16 KJV]
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Post #734

Well, to answer your last sentence, it is because we are not saved by our faith. We are saved by Christ's faith.

I didn't say that Christ believes for us.

Well, post #734 say "We are saved by Christ's faith". Seems like the two statements contradict each other. At a minimum it is confusing. You did quote Gal. 2:16 saying we are saved by Christ's faith (and I pointed out the KJV has this unique, awkward wording that other versions avoid).

IMO you didn't express what you meant to say (maybe I am wrong). I am on board with the idea that you state that we are saved by Christ's faithfulness; but we are not saved by Christ's faith IMO

I said that Christ was faithful to the tasks set before Him by the Father to
provide salvation. We are given faith in Christ as a gift from that faithfulness.

Agreed

Yes we believe, but again, per John 6:29, it is God's work that we do, that is, if by it we gain a faith/trust solely in Christ as Savior and not ourselves or our actions in any way.

Agreed

Our faith should most definitely NOT include any work on our part to achieve salvation. Work is acceptable, even called for as a result of our faith, but not to justify ourselves,

Agreed .. hey, we are on a roll again ... lol

I think our only issue is Post #734 where you say we are saved by Christ's faith and I think you may have withdrawn that statement (made in error, whatever)

 

[rogerg]

Gal 2:16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

The interpretation you used appears illogical to me. According to it, we have to have faith in Christ to have faith in Christ? The actual words say "by faith Jesus Christ even we have believed IN Jesus Christ justified by faith Christ". So, the "in" is not present with the "faith Jesus Christ" part, thereby meaning it is Christ's faith, but, the "in" is present in the "believed in Christ" part, meaning that our faith in Christ came as a result of Christ's faithfulness. So, to me , the difference between the two completely corroborates the KJV translation.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Yes, it is Christ's faithfulness that saves us, not our faith in Him. It is a result of His faithfulness that we are given faith - faith in Christ.

I agree with you but I do not like the wording "not our faith in Him". I think I know what you are trying to say ... trying to ensure that the work of salvation is completely God's and I agree. But we are a part of His work; you co-operate and are necessary for your salvation. I use a hammer to bang a nail into wood. I am in complete control of the process; yet is correct to say the hammer put the nail into the wood too. Without the hammer, the nail would not be in the wood. Now I could put the nail into the wood without the hammer, but I choose to use a hammer.

If we are not saved by our faith (which is caused by God) then the following verses are false:
Romans 10:9 because if you acknowledge and confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord [recognizing His power, authority, and majesty as God], and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. It plainly says we are saved by our belief/faith (granted, our faith was caused by God). 10 For with the heart a person believes [in Christ as Savior] resulting in his justification [that is, being made righteous—being freed of the guilt of sin and made acceptable to God]; and with the mouth he acknowledges and confesses [his faith openly], resulting in and confirming [his] salvation.

Maybe we just don't like each other terminology ... but in the end we are taking the same bus to the same ultimate destination.

 

[rogerg]

I think our only issue is Post #734 where you say we are saved by Christ's faith and I think you may have withdrawn that statement (made in error, whatever)

Okay I can agree with that, I probably wasn't as precise as I should have been as I sometimes try to rush and it can cause problems. We agree then it was Christ's faithfulness that brought salvation, and our faith in Christ came because of that faithfulness?

 

[rogerg]

Maybe we just don't like each other terminology ... but in the end we are taking the same bus to the same ultimate destination.

I'm good with that but will think about it further

 

[Fastfredy0]

The interpretation you used appears illogical to me. According to it, we have to have faith in Christ to have faith in Christ? The actual words say "by faith Jesus Christ even we have believed IN Jesus Christ justified by faith Christ".

Good point. I was dumb to even use the NKJV. Both versions suck! The other versions don't use this bad phrasing ... you can check https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Galatians 2:16 .... my bad for using the NKJV to renounce the KJV.

If you insist on the KJV or NKJV we can go no further. I admit the KJV says we are saved by Christ's faith. Almost all other versions fix this. Language evolves, the KJV is too many issues so I say it sucks. If you accept the KJV as the ultimate authority, then your point is valid.

 

[rogerg]

I agree with you but I do not like the wording "not our faith in Him". I think I know what you are trying to say ... trying to ensure that the work of salvation is completely God's and I agree. But we are a part of His work; you co-operate and are necessary for your salvation. I use a hammer to bang a nail into wood. I am in complete control of the process; yet is correct to say the hammer put the nail into the wood too. Without the hammer, the nail would not be in the wood. Now I could put the nail into the wood without the hammer, but I choose to use a hammer.

Wait... I just thought about it and I'm not completely sure I agree with your statement that our cooperation is necessary. I don't think that would be possible, or even permitted. Actually, I believe we that are saved in spite of ourselves.
If cooperation were required, then we would have contributed to it, unless you mean it in solely in terms of us being the beneficiaries and recipients. In rereading your analogy though, that appears to be what you imply(that we are its beneficiaries)

 

[rogerg]

f you insist on the KJV or NKJV we can go no further. I admit the KJV says we are saved by Christ's faith. Almost all other versions fix this. Language evolves, the KJV is too many issues so I say it sucks. If you accept the KJV as the ultimate authority, then your point is valid.

I tried to look at the Greek (although I claim no expertise in it whatsoever), and it seems to me that the Greek text distinguishes between Christ's faith and faith in Christ. So I'll have to stick by my original point that because of Christ's faith(fulness), we are given, as a gift, our faith in Him.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Actually, I believe we that are saved in spite of ourselves.

Agreed .. the depravity of man. No one seeks God ... yahda, yahda, ...

I just thought about it and I'm not completely sure I agree with your statement that our cooperation is necessary. I don't think that would be possible, or even permitted.

So, we can be saved if we don't co-operate? I admit that if God chose you, you will co-operate with 100% assurity ... but you cannot be saved and not co-operate ... you cannot be saved and not believe in Christ for example.

If cooperation were required, then we would have contributed to it, unless you mean it in solely in terms of us being the beneficiaries and recipients. In rereading your analogy though, that appears to be what you imply(that we are its beneficiaries)

Cooperate - work jointly toward the same end.

It is a cooperation but it is not as if someone God asks to cooperate will not do so. Either God has freewill or we do; guess who has it. God controls everything, we willingly cooperate.

 

[rogerg]

So, we can be saved if we don't co-operate? I admit that if God chose you, you will co-operate with 100% assurity ... but you cannot be saved and not co-operate ... you cannot be saved and not believe in Christ for example.

Hmmm interesting point. I guess it would depend on how you mean co-operate? I see it more in terms of us being the clay and He being the potter (spiritually speaking). Can the clay refuse or assist the potter? Maybe that's what you're saying too - I dunno, I gotta cut back on the coffee.

 

[Fastfredy0]

I tried to look at the Greek (although I claim no expertise in it whatsoever), and it seems to me that the Greek text distinguishes between Christ's faith and faith in Christ. So I'll have to stick by my original point that because of Christ's faith(fulness), we are given, as a gift, our faith in Him.

Since the definition of 'faith' and 'faithfulness' are not the same your statement is confusing.
Again, I only use modern day translations. Galatians 2:16 being yet another example of the KJV causing issues.

 

[rogerg]

Since the definition of 'faith' and 'faithfulness' are not the same your statement is confusing.
Again, I only use modern day translations. Galatians 2:16 being yet another example of the KJV causing issues.

I'm confused. No big deal but the translation of your link uses "faith in Christ" in the three occurrences of faith, where the Greek actually uses "faith Christ" (Faith of Christ) and "faith in Christ" and "faith Christ", which validates the KJV translation. No need to reply unless you feel like it

 

[Fastfredy0]

I'm confused. No big deal but the translation of your link uses "faith in Christ" in the three occurrences of faith, where the Greek actually uses "faith Christ" (Faith of Christ) and "faith in Christ" and "faith Christ", which validates the KJV translation. No need to reply unless you feel like it

You made some valid points. The Greek says both of our interpretations could be correct. Thus, hermeneutics 101 says to find others verses for clarification.

 

[Walpole]

Well, Christianity has Christ as its basis. That's all I'm saying. That Christ is the Savior, we are not. How is
that not Christian? Why, do you feel works have to be added to what Christ already accomplished?

But to answer your question, we are saved because Christ was faithful to the Father in accomplishing the tasks set before
Him by the Father. To achieve forgiveness and reconciliation with the Father, Christ had to take on the form of a man.

"Credal substitution" I suppose...

I find this a rather odd belief to you think you are saved because God believes in Himself.

 

[rogerg]

"Credal substitution" I suppose...

I find this a rather odd belief to you think you are saved because God believes in Himself.

No, I think we are saved because Christ was faithful to the Father in perfectly completing all of the tasks
the Father had set before Christ in order to achieve salvation for us.
He did it all. We contribute nothing.

 

[rogerg]

You made some valid points. The Greek says both of our interpretations could be correct. Thus, hermeneutics 101 says to find others verses for clarification.

thought I already posted this. guess not

[Phl 3:9 KJV]
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

 

[Fastfredy0]

thought I already posted this. guess not

[Phl 3:9 KJV]
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith

You posted it. Again, I would say the archaic terminology of the KJV of Gal. 2:16 and Phil. 3:9 is misleading you to state that we are saved by Christ's faith. Admittedly, that is what the KJV says, but it makes no sense. I looked at other versions (new, modern, current English) and they said we are saved by our faith IN Christ and not the faith OF Christ.

Walpole summarizes your statement as:

I find this a rather odd belief to you think you are saved because God believes in Himself.

I am sure God believes in Himself, but that is not why we are saved IMO. We are not saved by Christ's faith; His faithfulness yes, by not His faith as you stated in post #734.
I would retract your statement in post #734 unless you still believe we are saved by Christ's faith per:

I am saying we are saved by Christ's faith.

Granted, you sometimes said we are saved by Christ's faith(fulness) but I don't know what that means.