I choose a)
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
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The Atonement: What did it REALLY Accomplish?
- Thread starter brightfame52
- Start date
I choose a)
"B". I believe one must be regenerated (born again) to be able to truly "hear" the Gospel in its spiritual sense.
When does that actual hearing happen? Not before regeneration but the precise timing of hearing is dictated by God.
I guess the two could happen almost simultaneously, but a spiritually renewed mind along with the receiving of true faith must first occur, or the spiritual ground of the mind (so to speak) would remain unfertile.
[Phl 2:13 KJV]
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.
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You give way too much credit to the spiritually blind and deaf
Wow, that surprised me but maybe you are coming at the question from a different vantage point. O.K., maybe a definition is needed.
My supplemental question:
Is defining 'hearing the gospel':
A) a physical/auditory sense (you must read/hear the facts needed as a prerequisite to faith because faith requires facts to believe.)
B) Are you defining 'hearing the gospel' as a spiritual thing whereby God enables you to believe what you physically heard?
Aside: I always define 'hearing the gospel' as a physical thing so a preachers can tell 1,000 people the gospel and 100% will have heard the gospel assuming they are attentive.
You give no credit to the Holy Spirit and power of God unto salvation, by the preaching of the Gospel.
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “The just shall live by faith.”
Romans 1:16-17
Salvation is for everyone who believes.
JLB
B. God enables hearing to include perceiving. The Bible informs us that many can't hear it
because their minds, ears, etc, have been blinded by Satan. Hearing comes with being born again, not the reverse
"for everyone who believes". If we think we've caused our salvation from a belief generated by our own intellect, how can that be a belief in Christ? That belief would be based upon, and generated from ourselves - our trust would be in us not in God. A true belief in Christ comes from God as a gift.
[Gal 2:16 KJV]
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
By the faith of Christ we believe in Christ.
Christ's faith, not ours. See Gal 2:16 above
Again, a simple yes or no question: do you believe Christ is the Savior?
So does my reply still surprise you, and if so, why?
I agree with your statement "God enables hearing to include perceiving". But people IMO do not assign this definition to Roman 10:17. I think most people refer to 'hearing the gospel' as a physical rather than spiritual event. In context Romans 10:14 says But how will people call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how will they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher (messenger)?
Anyways, it seems to me that some of the previous posts are confusing as I believe the participants are defining "hearing the gospel" differently and subsequent discussion is being built on a misunderstanding. (IMO)
Not now because subsequent to my statement you have defined what you mean by 'hearing the gospel'. We are in complete agreement save you define 'hearing the gospel' as God enabling one to believe what he physically hears and I define it as God providing the facts of the gospel but not necessarily also providing belief in the gospel.
(not a biggy)
Nope, we didn’t “cause” our salvation.
We simply believed and therefore received the free gift.
JLB
I know but that's why to the extent possible, when reading the Bible, we must always compare the spiritual with the spiritual. Here is the ultimate biblical guardrail: that Jesus Christ alone is Savior. Anything else we perceive as being needed that we should add to it, or modify it, even to the slightest degree, is a clear signal we're wrong.
Yes you could very well be correct.
However, my understanding was that two fundament
points were made repeatedly which I responded to:
1) their faith leads to salvation - a choice on their part to believe
2) their faith originates from their intellect or ability.
I believe that it is God who leads us into truth.
[Phl 2:13 KJV]
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.
As I have posted many times in the past. Here is just one example:
From Post 639 in this thread in a response to you.
Jesus Christ is our God and Savior. He appeared in the flesh to bring the Gospel Message of salvation to mankind.
If you didn’t know this read verse 13 of the previous chapter.
looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ. Titus 2:13
Of course Jesus Christ is my Savior.
Warning;
Do not troll with repetitive questions that I have already answered.
JLB
I think we are agreed on the 'ultimate biblical guardrail'. I think we are just dealing with semantics. I am speaking of the 2nd cause being man and you are addressing the 1st cause being God. Both are true.
Agreed. They believe in dualism. They believe they have a power of decision that is not created by God. They are mini-gods as they have the power to create something (their decisions) from nothing.
Yes, those who believe are saved, as I have given the scriptures many times that teach this.
I’m still waiting for your “scripture” that says we are saved BEFORE we hear and believe the Gospel.
Please post it now.
JLB
In Christian theology, synergism is the position of those who hold that salvation involves some form of cooperation between divine grace and human freedom.
In other words, it take God + man to have salvation.
And I have posted it many times before. Perhaps you just are unable to fathom it?
Here's a quick couple of them . Notice it does NOT say anything about the recipient doing anything to receive it
[Jhn 3:3 KJV]
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
** see = must be given spiritual eyes that see from being born again
[1Pe 1:23 KJV] 23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
Because it says "the word of God which liveth" we can know that Christ is the incorruptible seed that those who become born again are born from Him
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We are saved by grace through faith.
This means we hear, believe, and obey the Gospel.
JLB
Yeah I think that's what he believes too based upon what he's posted before, but when I asked him about his belief vs a vie Christ as Savior, if I understood him correctly, he seems to agree that Christ is Savior, which I interpreted to mean exclusively as the Savior. Of course, on the other hand, what you've said is probably the correct understanding.