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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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The Atonement: What did it REALLY Accomplish?
- Thread starter brightfame52
- Start date
The faith we receive from God when we hear the Gospel.
How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:
“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!”
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:14-17
JLB
Again, who's faith? Based upon your reply, if it is a received faith, it cannot have originated from ourselves, right?
So in that case, it must be God's faith that saves and is imputed to us?
Or, are you saying that salvation is contingent upon hearing, which hearing is our responsibility to achieve,
in which case it would be our work not God's making us our own savior? So, which is it?
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Serving Zion
Member
You should have added d) both.
Nonetheless I choose (b) as rogerg also has done, on the basis that the precise wording of (b) says "can", which does not necessarily exclude the potential for (a).
I have evidence for this position in my own testimony, where I have explained of the days leading up to my repentance: despite all the scripture that anybody would quote to me, I just wouldn't look at it. I wasn't interested. I was just as effective at ignoring their quotes as I am with ignoring advertisements on a page. Therefore I didn't hear any of God's Word in the days leading up to my repentance, except for where it may have been Him speaking to me through His own spirit in His people. It is only because the conversation brought me to say something that immediately forced me to question the validity of my own position! ... It wasn't a question that came from anybody confronting me with that question, it's just that as soon as I made the statement I could see that something wasn't adding up about it.
I believe that was the spirit of God working in me and using the conviction of my conscience to bring me to the point of confessing that I might not be on the right track. It is only because of that conviction that I was able to go to the Christians and say "I'll give you one chance to prove that the bible is true", and as soon as I read their response, my whole position was turned around. In fact, I remember that when I read the response that was given I wasn't so interested in what the person had said above and below the scripture, but I was only interested to see what the bible had to say and as soon as I read that scripture, everything suddenly made sense. It didn't even take a split-second, it was instantaneous. As soon as I allowed God's Word to speak to me, it gave me a new perspective that made everything I knew about Christianity, that had been chaotic and ridiculous in my view and I had been mocking it, but suddenly it all made sense and I could see that it is true. It shows the power of God's Word, that when we hear what He says, it has the power to radically renew the spirit! Then when I had come to see that it was true, I began reading the bible for myself and He was talking to me personally through it, and I felt that I needed to find someone to help me get a grip on it all, so I went looking and found a priest on duty and she sat with me in the church alone and we prayed and she showed me one scripture that spoke to me and told me what I had to do to repent.
That's why I attribute the act of repenting as having come about as a result of God's work of bringing me into new life, and that work of Him in me being more than hearing the gospel of Jesus Christ or the words of the bible, but it was more about the fact that I did choose to follow the direction that He was leading me when He caused me to question my own position and only then to subsequently give the bible a chance to speak! AND: I would not have been able to hear the words of the bible (and nobody would have been able to force it upon me) if it wasn't for the patient and gentle work of His servants toward me in that thread.
So I see that it is because they were faithfully representing Him and serving me without selfish desire or deceit, that I was not tempted to war against them in pride - instead I was able to trust them when I was at the vulnerable point of deciding whether I might be wrong about my position on the bible. In that way I am showing that it is because of His great love for me, manifesting through His servants (ie 1 John 4:16, John 14:20), that He brought me into new life so that I was able to see and hear the truth of His Word (Ephesians 2:4-5, 1 John 4:6).
Therefore indeed I believe that one can be regenerated (born-again) before hearing the gospel (if indeed it is God's judgment that the one is hearing Him and following Him: John 10:27-30).
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Again, it’s our faith that we receive as a gift from God when we hear the Gospel.
Again,
Here are the steps, laid out in scripture, for us to understand this principle of salvation by faith; the obedience of faith.
How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed?
And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard?
And how shall they hear without a preacher?
And how shall they preach unless they are sent?
As it is written:
“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!”
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:14-17
Again, contextually, the “word” by which we receive faith is:
- The Gospel message of Jesus Christ
Faith comes to us by hearing the Gospel message of Jesus Christ.
- We hear the Gospel message because someone preaches it.
- Someone preaches the Gospel because they were sent.
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
JLB
Definition: Regeneration may be defined as the communication of divine life to the soul (John 3:5; John 10:10,28; 1 John 5:11), as the impartation of a new nature (2 Peter 1:4) or heart (Jeremiah 24:7; Ezekiel 11:19; 36:26), and the production of a new creation 2 Corinthians 5:17; Ephesians 2:10; 4:24). This new spiritual life affects the believer’s intellect (1 Corinthians 2:14; Ephesians 1:18; Colossians 3:10), will (Philippians 2:13; 2 Thessalonians 3:5; Hebrews 13:21), and emotions (Matthew 5:4; 1 Peter 1:8) – Henry Thiessen – Lectures in Systematic Theology
Definition of the Gospel: The content of salvific faith including knowledge of Christ. (Also defined in a general sense as the New Testament)
So your 'order of salvation' is:
This statement infers IMO that you heard scripture before your 'repentance' where I assume 'repentance' is evidence of your 'regeneration'.
Romans 10:17 So faith comes from hearing [what is told], and what is heard comes by the [preaching of the] message concerning Christ. So, if the scripture you heard contained information about Christ, then you did hear the gospel before being born again. Therefore, your statement "I believe that one can be regenerated (born-again) before hearing the gospel" would not apply to your specific case.
That's the way I read what you posted. Where did I go wrong. (Aside: not that this is a critical doctrine ... just interesting observations)
It seems to me that:
Premise 1) Faith is necessary for salvation
Premise 2) Faith includes content (something to believe)
Premise 3) Salvific Faith includes knowledge of Christ
Premise 4) You cannot have Salvific Faith and not be 'born again' and you cannot be 'born again' and not have Salvific Faith
Conclusion: I do not see any possible way to be born again without hearing the gospel ... as the gospel includes information about Christ that is a prerequisite to Salvific Faith which is necessary to all those who are 'born again'(regenerated)
Which premise is incorrect? or show me someone that is born again that has never heard of Christ (the gospel)
Sounds reasonable. Why would you go to Christians for more information if you have not heard parts of the gospel? I contend that at this point, if you did not know of Christ's death and resurrection ... that you have not yet been born again. If you did know of Christ's death and resurrection then you had heard the gospel which is my point that one must hear the gospel before being born again.
Sounds like you heard the gospel and after that your were born again (Zion: my whole position was turned around). Thus, the physical conveyance of the gospel was a prerequisite to being born again.
Again, this is evidence that you were aware of the gospel before you were regenerated/'born again'. This, if true, contradicts the proposition that: "I believe that one can be regenerated (born-again) before hearing the gospel"
Agreed. I am just saying that the physical conveyance of the gospel is a prerequisite to salvation. Granted, salvation is much more than just hearing the gospel.
Agreed
Perhaps you define 'hearing the gospel' differently than I do. Your story indicates you did 'hear the gospel' before being regenerated.
I enjoyed your testimony. We are just majoring on minors.
For whatever it's worth, as I understand it, being born again isn't by, or of, the hearing the Gospel (if that's your point). Instead I think to be born again is to be indwelt by the Holy Spirit - it is He which gives spiritual rebirth, hence, the term born again - a man cannot make himself born spiritually just as he didn't make himself born physically - life is life both requiring only God, and, can only be by God. As I understand "hearing" in the context you've used it makes it a requirement in order to become born again. However, I don't believe a knowledge of Christ is what causes it. A knowledge of Christ is a gift given after the fact.
One of the fruits of the Holy Spirit is faith. How does someone believe without having the Holy Spirit as a prerequisite to give that belief (faith), no matter how often one might hear the Gospel in a physical sense beforehand?
[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Possibly I've misunderstood your point
Edward
2024 Supporter
Many times it is through a tragedy or near death experience. They have heard before but have never received Him, but when man looks upon impending doom and death, he is quick to call out to God for His help. "God save me!" and He is all over that and will respond. Then when they live or recover, they will know that God saved them and it's the truth.
Agreed. I am not saying one is saved by hearing the gospel of Christ. I am saying that it is IMPOSSIBLE to be born again without hearing the gospel; without hearing of Christ. (Aside: I am not addressing babies or those before Christ's death as I want to keep it simple). If you know of someone (even a hypothetical someone) who has been born again without hearing the gospel of Christ, let me know what the content of that person's faith is that is saving him. (I assume that faith is always a requirement for salvation ... if you disagree we can go down that road too.)
Agreed.
Agreed. Again, refer to my first response for a way to show me otherwise.
We are saved by faith. You CANNOT be saved by believing (faith) without content (knowledge of Christ). Faith has 3 NECESSARY aspects to it.
1) Content ... facts to believe. You CAN NOT be saved if you don't believe certain facts like the death and resurrection of Christ and that Christ is God. (1 Cor. 15:1-4)
2) Assent - conviction produced by evidence. Faith without evidence is irrational or impossible.
3) Trust - surrender and reliance on #1 and obedience. To the extent one does not obey one exhibits disbelief.
Again, faith must have content. It is the definition of faith unless you propose otherwise. So one MUST hear the gospel as a prerequisite to saving faith. I am not saving all that hear the gospel as saved. I am saying none are saved that have not heard the gospel and therefore hearing the gospel is a prerequisite. I suppose one might believe at the exact same time as one hears the gospel but usually there is a time lapse if for nothing else than the time to accummulate the knowledge and reason with it.
Agreed ... again, I state faith consists of content, accent and trust and that you must have content first in order to have something to accent to and trust.
Yeah, I think we are talking about different side of the same coin. I think you separate 'hearing the word/gospel' and faith; whereas, I say faith includes content (hearing the gospel).
Romans 10:17 So faith comes from hearing [what is told], and what is heard comes by the [preaching of the] message concerning Christ. AMP
I'll start my reply with you last point. I think where we may differ is that we see differently how being born again is manifested to us. or from your perspective, how it is achieved by us.
As I understand it, being born again occurs when someone is indwelt by the Holy Spirit - an action accomplished solely by God at a time of His choosing. When that occurs, the fruit of the Holy Spirit, from the indwelling begins to manifest itself into heart, mind and actions of the recipient, but not before then. One of His fruit being faith. I think (but could be wrong) that you believe that faith in Christ is a prerequisite to becoming born again- hence your statement that one must hear the Gospel first. To reduce the number of variables between our perspectives to their fewest, most basic level, I would sum them up this way: I believe that a person must first be born again to obtain faith, while you believe one must have faith to be born again. So, from my standpoint, I do not believe that either hearing or having faith have anything to do with being born again. I believe they are the result (or byproduct) of it. Respectfully, I think you believe an action such as faith causes spiritual rebirth, while I believe the two (rebirth and actions) are different with the actions coming afterwards.
As I've mentioned previously, true spiritual hearing, seeing and believing requires the fruit of the Spirit (hope I'm not being too redundant) -- so, it seems a simple, straightforward proposition to me that to obtain His fruit, He must first be present within us. Without His presence neither will His fruit be present.
Yes, I believe that faith (our faith, that is ) is not a requirement for salvation. Only Christ's faithfulness was. Our faith is given as a gift but is not a prerequisite. Regarding your question of someone being born again without hearing the Gospel first, I would have to say that everyone who becomes born again falls into that category - remember (from my perspective at least), our faith does not cause spiritual rebirth.
As I've said, I do not believe we are saved by our faith. We are saved by Christ's faith - He is the Savor,
we are not. Faith comes to us as gift. Your points 1,2 and 3 above happen after salvation/being born again.
[Phl 3:9 KJV] 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Respectfully, I can only repeat myself that our faith does not save us, Christ's faith does. Otherwise it would be a work on our part, and our works cannot save. Work must be a part of faith for it to be true living faith. But, the Bible is clear
that no one is justified by their works in the sight of God. Instead, Christ's faith and His works were reckoned to the recipient as a free gift. So, should we believe that we are saved by our faith then we'd better also have the necessary works to accompany them - which of course, none of us will have.
[Jas 2:17-18 KJV]
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
If that's true then it is a work, our work but which cannot save us nor make us born again
Agreed.
No. I believe faith must contain knowledge (something to believe) and that knowledge can only be known via hearing/reading the gospel of Christ. I am not saying faith is exclusively knowledge, but it MUST contain knowledge. It is very possible that one has the necessary knowledge requirement of faith and still not be saved as Faith contains other elements necessary for salvation (assent and trust). Do you not agree that 'saving faith' must include, among other things, knowledge of what is to be believed? ... if not, explain why this is not true.
No, I agree that regeneration (born again) logically precedes faith. I am saying the order of salvation is:
1) Hear/read the gospel
2) Regeneration
3) Faith (you already heard the gospel, maybe years ago and the gospel is a part of faith but now you assent and trust in the gospel you heard so you faith is complete (Faith = Knowledge + assent + Trust)
I am not talking about 'spiritual hearing'. I am talking about Romans 10:17 that is physical (with your ears) hearing. I don't know what 'spiritual hearing' is for it has not been defined so I can't comment on it. Do you have a 'spiritual hearing' verse?
"Fruit" has not been defined so I can't comment.
I agree that God is the cause of our faith. I believe in salvation by faith alone in Christ alone by grace alone to the glory of God alone; that our actions are the effect and God is the cause of all (I don't believe in dualism). I also believe God causes many to physically hear the salvific gospel and a few of the many God causes to believe the gospel. I do not believe anyone is saved that has not heard the gospel (infants possibly being the exception). I believe faith by definition must include facts to believe and NO ONE IS SAVED who has not heard those facts. Now, if you want to define 'spiritual hearing' and where that fits into the picture we can do that.
Definition of faith: strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension [hearing the gospel] rather than proof.
Aside: You are always so polite.
That’s what the Bible teaches.
Faith comes by hearing God; whether directly from Him, or by someone sent by Him to preach the Gospel.
Example of hearing God directly:
By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. Hebrews 11:8
In this example of Abraham hearing and obeying the Gospel, he is justified, thus foreshadowing the pattern by which Gentiles will be saved.
Just because a person hears the Gospel and thereby receives faith, doesn’t mean they will be saved.
They must believe (obey) in order to activate the faith they receive when they hear, otherwise faith remains dead, and can not save.
JLB
Well, to answer your last sentence, it is because we are not saved by our faith. We are saved by Christ's faith. Otherwise, our faith would have to include our works and we can't be saved by those. Please observe:
[Jas 2:20, 26 KJV]
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? ...
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
So were we to believe and trust that our faith is an alive faith capable of saving us, then it must have works to accompany it too. But we know that no one will be justified by their works
Sorry, not entirely sure I follow (brain getting kind of tired about now) but let me emphasize this point: we are not saved by our faith. We are saved by Christ's faith(fulness) to the Father. Our faith is given as a gift.
I would have to disagree. I believe it is spiritual hearing through Christ as the verse tells us is "by the word of God'.
"by" means that something caused it to happen -in this case the word of God caused it. The written word in and of itself does not enable spiritual hearing, and its readers as natural man do not have spiritual ears to hear unless given them by God(of which fact we are informed of in the Bible). So, that leaves only that Christ is He who brings spiritual hearing and thereby faith, to us.
[Rom 10:17 KJV] 17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
[Rev 19:13 KJV] 13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
[Gal 5:22 KJV]
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
[Eph 5:9 KJV]
9 (For the fruit of the Spirit [is] in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)
Again, I am not saying we are saved by our faith, I am saying we are saved by Christ's faith.
Regarding spiritual hearing etc:
[Deu 29:4 KJV]
4 Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.
[Mat 13:15-16 KJV]
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and [their] ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with [their] eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and should understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16 But blessed [are] your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
No, that's not what the Bible teaches.
And hearing comes from God
The faith is Christ's which was imputed to him and moved him accordingly
Really? Never heard that one before. You're saying that those who receive faith from God.
aren't necessarily saved ? Where do you find it in the Bible? True faith is the fruit of the Holy Spirit.
If one has the Holy Spirit, how could they not have become saved first?
But am not agreeing to the " hears the Gospel and thereby" part of your post.
So you're saying that works in addition to faith is needed for salvation (though it is true that faith is a work)?
Please explain how God does your hearing for you?
What is it that you don’t understand about this verse?
- So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
We hear because someone is sent by God to preach the Gospel.
- And how shall they hear without a preacher?
- And how shall they preach unless they are sent?
Again,
Here are the steps, laid out in scripture, for us to understand this principle of salvation by faith; the obedience of faith.
How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed?
And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard?
And how shall they hear without a preacher?
And how shall they preach unless they are sent?
As it is written:
“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!”
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:14-17
Again, contextually, the “word” by which we receive faith is:
- The Gospel message of Jesus Christ
Faith comes to us by hearing the Gospel message of Jesus Christ.
- We hear the Gospel message because someone preaches it.
- Someone preaches the Gospel because they were sent.
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
JLB
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I've never heard this proposed before. I don't even think the divine nature of Christ has faith. Hebrews 11:1 Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. If one believe the divine nature of Christ is all knowing and the Bible says He is, then there is nothing unseen to Him. Therefore, Christ's does not have faith; rather, knowledge of all things. If Christ does not have faith He cannot have faith for us.
I suppose Christ's human nature could have faith.
- 1 John 5:4 "For whatsoever is begotten of God over cometh the world, even our faith." Says "OUR" faith, not Christ's faith.
- Luke 17:5 The apostles said to the Lord, “Increase our faith!” ... says the faith is ours, not Christ's
- Luke 22:32 Jesus said to Peter, "I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail". ... says the faith is Peter's, not Christ's
- John 6:29 Jesus answered, “This is the work of God: that you believe [adhere to, trust in, rely on, and have faith] in the One whom He has sent.” .... says that YOU believe, not Christ believe for you
- show me ANY theologian that says Christ believes for us. This concept unknown to me.
"Include" is not a precise term. Our faith causes use to do works. Works are the result of faith. They do not save us, but you if do not have works this is evidence that one does not believe. Belief and obedience are synonymous are are unbelief/disobedience.
These verses do not prove that we are saved by Christ's faith. Just that faith is not saving faith if there are no works.
Again, your faith which is caused by God and this faith which is yours causes you to do works. The works do not save you, they are just an effect of your faith which in turn is an effect of God's regeneration of your soul. (Aside: all our works are filthy rags anyways. Luckily, we are IN CHRIST and His works which are perfect are imputed to us and the works also are caused by the Spirit... I could give many verses if needed).
Now I am confused. You said we are saved by Christ faith (though give no scripture or definition of what Christ's faith is) and now you say "Our faith is given as a gift". I am confused ... we have faith that we are not saved by? I think you need to provide definitions as I am confused. Define "our faith" and "Christ's Faith" and give documentation/scripture to confirm your definition of "Christ's Faith" which I have never heard of.
Again, I was speaking of physical hearing (Romans 10:17) and how that fits into salvation. "Spiritual hearing" is a different aspect of salvation that I did not address assuming I know what you mean by "spiritual hearing" (I guess you mean regeneration).
Aside: I am at the point that I forget what the point we are discussing is.... LOL ... too tired to proof read ...
Walpole
Member
So you are saved because God has faith in Himself?
Every time I come onto forums such as this, I am baffled at what poses as Christianity among some people these days.
Well, Christianity has Christ as its basis. That's all I'm saying. That Christ is the Savior, we are not. How is
that not Christian? Why, do you feel works have to be added to what Christ already accomplished?
But to answer your question, we are saved because Christ was faithful to the Father in accomplishing the tasks set before
Him by the Father. To achieve forgiveness and reconciliation with the Father, Christ had to take on the form of a man.
Perhaps you mean Christ's 'faithfulness' (obedience?) has saved us rather than Christ's faith is given to us to save us.
Dictionary Definitions
Faithful - remaining loyal and steadfast.
Faith - strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.