Nope, I am still on what I said in the first place. Lets not leave there until we can agree or disagree. Rom 8:28-30... in 28 there is a called and in 30 there is a called .In 30 it is now the elect because in verse 28 the invitation was accepted By the one who chose to accept the "purpose" of God.
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The BEFORE and the AFTER of being born-again
- Thread starter John Zain
- Start date
Nope, I am still on what I said in the first place. Lets not leave there until we can agree or disagree. Rom 8:28-30... in 28 there is a called and in 30 there is a called .In 30 it is now the elect because in verse 28 the invitation was accepted By the one who chose to accept the "purpose" of God.
No other reason then I turned on my computer saw the newest posts and checked the thread..... noticed things were getting edgy. Had another post been there at the time my action would have been the same.
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josefnospam
Member
A simple question. How does man improve on what God has done? Is it not then your works ,not his. He our Lord ,stated "IT is finished." What can a man add to what God has done? There is no progresive santifacation, only life given to his people who were dead and only then can we thank him and worship him for his wonderfull mercy and Grace and spirit and life forever. He already did it all for us. I thank my God we are not under the Law nor required to anything except believe on the Lord and Saviour and him cruciied.
Overall, I think you did an excellent job summarizing the scripture teaching on salvation.
I'm not sure if I agree with #1. There is an inconsistency between #1 and #4. You wrote that a person can't choose spiritual life but he can choose to continue or discontinue spiritual life once saved. The verses used to support #1 show that unbelievers are unable to understand Christian teaching but none of them say a person is unable to choose to come to Christ. If you mean that no one can come to God on their own without God drawing him first then I agree with you. John 6:44 makes it clear that no one can come to Jesus unless God draws him. Once God draws someone and reveals himself, it is up to the person whether he wants to accept or reject God's grace. Once grace is received through faith, I definitely agree with you that a person must continue to cooperate with God's grace by remaining faithful to Jesus and his Word. Believers who turn away from God will not be saved. I agree that Jesus wouldn't have warned us if it was impossible to turn away. I don't think anyone should ignore anything Jesus taught.
I don't know what the word "believe" means but I would say that someone who doesn't believe what Jesus taught about salvation really doesn't believe in Jesus. Jesus said, "“If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. (Matt 16:24)" I think the reason 1John 2:4 says "The man who says, “I know him,†but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him." is because anyone who really knows Jesus and what he taught knows that he must obey him and follow his teaching. Those who willfully disobey his teaching such as a thief who continues to steal after becoming a Christian shows that they really don't believe.
Matthew 7 is part of the Sermon on the Mount. Jesus talked about who God will accept into his kingdom (the humble, the merciful, the pure in heart, those who hunger for righteousness - Matt 5:1-12). He then talked about how the New Covenant Law surpassed the Old Covenant Law. For example, not only is adultery prohibited but lust which can lead to adultery is prohibited. Although the useless rules and rituals were abolished (they were necessary earlier but no longer needed) the moral aspect of the New Covenant Law has increased. Although believers are imputed with righteousness because of the righteousness of Christ, an intrinsic righteousness is required. Jesus said, "For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven. (Matt 5:20)" Jesus said, "“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven. (Matt 7:21-73)" near the end of his sermon after explaining the will of the Father in chapters 5-7. The will of God is more than just believing a few things about Jesus. It also includes loving God by striving to obey his commandments. Heaven certainly isn't earned because nothing we do could ever be enough to deserve it. Heaven is a gift that God gives in his grace to those who believe him and love him.
One problem with you interpretation of "A good tree [true prophet] cannot produce bad fruit [give false doctrine], nor can a bad tree [false prophet] produce good fruit [give true doctrine]" is that it merely states the obvious. A true prophet is someone who preaches the truth so a true prophet, by definition, can't produce false doctrine. The context shows Jesus is talking about action. I think his meaning is similar to Luke 6:45 where Jesus said, "The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For out of the overflow of his heart his mouth speaks.
The Lordship Salvation position is that salvation is by grace. The difference between it and "free grace" is that God gives his grace to those who believe him and follow his teaching instead of giving it to those who just believe. Obeying Jesus isn't earning salvation anymore than believing is earning it. Neither faith nor works are enough apart from the grace of God. Grace alone is what saves us. The question is whether God gives salvation in his grace to those who just believe or to those who believe and obey.
I don't think any of us can improve or add onto what God has done. Jesus' death on the cross was a perfect sacrifice sufficient to forgive the sins of the world. When Jesus said, "it is finished" what was he referring to? If he really meant that he already did everything for our salvation, then why do we need faith? Jesus did it all so we should be saved regardless of what we believe about it. If works is trying to improve what God has done then why wouldn't requiring faith be adding to what he has done? I think we both agree that something is required of us to benefit from Jesus' sacrifice. Otherwise, we would all be saved regardless of what we believe. The question is what does God require of us for our salvation? Just believing or believing and obeying? I think Jesus taught in the Sermon on the Mount that doing the will of God by following the examples he mentioned is required of us. God loves us so much that he sent his son to die for us. His death freed us from the curse of the Law and makes grace and salvation possible. I think if we put our faith in Jesus and follow his teaching we will be saved even though we don't deserve it.
John Zain
Member
Sorry I didn't make it crystal clear that ...
In #4, the born-again believer IS ABLE TO CHOOSE correctly
because he/she has the Holy Spirit leading, guiding, teaching spiritual Truth!
He/she is now a completely new creation, never again to be spiritually blind and deaf.
However, he/she can CHOOSE to abandon the faith and walk away from it,
but will never forget what it's like to be set free from the previous ignorance.
He/she will always have the Holy Spirit "forever" (John 14:16),
but if in rebellion, etc. will be out of fellowship with the Triune Godhead,
and as a result, will be shut out of heaven.
An invitation
Someone might like to start a thread showing that ...
Eternal life is in the obedient fellowship with Father God and the Lord Jesus (John 17:3).
There are MANY supporting Scriptures.
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John Zain
Member
Note-1
Man is unnable to choose spiritual life because:
-- he is born with an inherited sin nature (which doesn’t help matters) … many verses
-- he is spiritually blind and deaf … Matthew 13:13-15, John 9:39, John 12:37-40
-- he is blinded by Satan … Acts 26:18, 2 Corinthians 4:3-4
-- he is controlled by Satan … John 12:31, 1 John 5:19, Acts 26:18, 2 Corinthians 10:4-5
-- he is deceived by Satan … Revelation 12:9, John 8:44, Ephesians 2:2, 2 Corinthians 11:14
-- he is a captive of Satan unto death … Hebrews 2:14-15, 1 John 3:8, Luke 4:18
-- he is spiritually dead in his trespasses and sins … Eph 2:1-5, Eph 4:18, Colossians 2:13
-- he sees the gospel as utter foolishness … 1 Corinthians 1:18
-- he cannot believe the truth of the gospel (it is veiled) … 2 Corinthians 4:3
-- Almighty God chooses whomever He pleases (man doesn’t get to choose) … Rom 9:9-24
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Deborah13
Member
Where did you find this in Scripture, please?
John Zain
Member
I doubt that it's in Scripture, but assuming the person has a memory, it is common sense.
Deborah13
Member
Nope, logic says that if they REJECT Jesus they no longer believe in Him and His salvation or eternal life through Him. So they won't even care.
John Zain
Member
Are you out of your mind? ... No, but you just have poor logic!
The topic was:
Those who walk away from Jesus and their salvation ...
will never forget what it's like to be set free from the previous ignorance.
Please, have mercy ... no more posts, okay?