Bible Study The Begotten Word of God

[FreeGrace]

<such comments are not necessary - snipped. Let's be nice.>

The Word (He) was with God. The Word (He) is full of grace and truth. Grace and truth came through Jesus.

John 1:1-2

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
(NKJ)


FG - The Word is not some personalized communication from God - it is a person. If I am a doctor you do not say that my words are a doctor. The Word here must be a person - Jesus Christ, as shown later.

John 1:14
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
(NKJ)

He the Word is refered to as the only begotten Word of God which is full of grace and truth. So the only begotten Word of God came through the only begotten Son of God Jesus.

FG - Huh? I still don't follow.

John 1:17-18
17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.
(NKJ)

SB,

Grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. The person, the "one-and-only" Word of God, is "full of grace and truth" (vs. 14). They are one and the same.

SB, your logic doesn't work here because it is clear that "the Word" in vss 1-3 is a person. The words of a person are never referred to as the actual person. And vss. 14-18 make it clear that the Word is Jesus Christ. To make that more clear, let's look at other places in the NT which refer to the Word (hO logos). I'll look in John's other books:

1 John 1:1-3 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life -- 2 the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us-- 3 that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ.

You seem to prefer the NKJV, so I'm using that. Notice above that John, similar to his prologue in his gospel, speaks of the Word of life - which they have handled, seen, heard, touched, looked upon... you don't handle or look upon a personification. Later he makes it clear that it is Jesus Christ.

Revelation 19:11-16 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

And who is called, "King of kings and Lord of lords?"

1 Timothy 6:15, 16 that you keep this commandment without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ's appearing, 15 which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.

Here we see that the title "the King of kings and Lord of lords" was given to the Father. The same reference was used for Jesus Christ - the Word - in Revel. 19... because He is God. He is clothed there with a robe dipped in blood - only the Son would wear such a robe.

But in case there is still doubt in your mind, look at Revel. 17:

Revelation 17:14 These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are called, chosen, and faithful."

Here we see that "the Lamb" is "Lord of lords and King of kings." ("Behold the Lamb of God, Who takes away the sin of the world" was how John the Baptizer addressed Jesus.)

It's quite clear... the Lamb of God - the King of kings and Lord of lords - takes away the sin of the world... and he is the Word - Who was with the Father and is God.

FG

 

[Squeakybro]

you said
Grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. The person, the "one-and-only" Word of God, is "full of grace and truth" (vs. 14). They are one and the same.

I said
Not so. The word "He" is only used for spiritual titles of authority. Whether it be God the Father, or Jesus Christ, or Holy Spirit. The Word of God carries the same title of authority, to show that it takes authority over any other language.
God is the highest title of authority over the universe. Lord is the highest title of authority over the earth. The Father carried both titles in the old testament. Jesus carries the title of Lord in the new testament. But the Father never gave up the title of God. Jesus said it Himself there is only one true God and that is the Father.

John 20:17
17 Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.'"
(NKJ)

John 17:1-3
1 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You,
2 "as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.
3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
(NKJ)

 

[FreeGrace]

FG said

Grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. The person, the "one-and-only" Word of God, is "full of grace and truth" (vs. 14). They are one and the same.

SB said

Not so. The word "He" is only used for spiritual titles of authority. Whether it be God the Father, or Jesus Christ, or Holy Spirit. The Word of God carries the same title of authority, to show that it takes authority over any other language.

SB,

You still have not addressed the fact that the Word is referred to as a person - nota "title." A title of authority cannot be referred to as God.

FG

 

[Squeakybro]

you said
You still have not addressed the fact that the Word is referred to as a person - nota "title." A title of authority cannot be referred to as God.

I said
yes I did. Only in your imagination is it refering to a person. God is neither male nor female and we call Him a He. The Holy Spirit is neither male nor female and we call Him a He. The Word of God is neither male nor female and we call Him a He. He is a spiritual title of authority. Just as there is a chain of authority with people.

1 Cor 11:3
3 But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.
(NKJ)

There is a chain of authority with languages. The Word of God should be the highest authority in your mind over your carnality. But in most cases that isnt true. People rely on their own carnal understanding over the Word of God.

 

[FreeGrace]

An analysis of John 1:1-18 - the prologue of John's gospel

you said
You still have not addressed the fact that the Word is referred to as a person - not a "title." A title of authority cannot be referred to as God.

I said
yes I did. Only in your imagination is it refering to a person. God is neither male nor female and we call Him a He. The Holy Spirit is neither male nor female and we call Him a He. The Word of God is neither male nor female and we call Him a He. He is a spiritual title of authority. Just as there is a chain of authority with people.

FG - FYI, if it was a spiritual title of authority, then it would be neuter. A masculine personal pronoun indicates - male.

1 Cor 11:3
3 But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.
(NKJ)

There is a chain of authority with languages. The Word of God should be the highest authority in your mind over your carnality. But in most cases that isn't true. People rely on their own carnal understanding over the Word of God.

SB, OK, I'm going to have to go over this text carefully. I want to show the relationship of the first few verses with those in vss. 14-18. You seem to be missing the connection.

I transliterated the Greek text below. I've made a quick translation of the Greek text, then added a few observations. Following that is a comparison of the text throughout the prologue, as it is commonly referred (John 1:1-18).

1:1 EN ARCHA AN hO LOGOS, KAI hO LOGOS AN PROS TON THEON,
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God

KAI THEOS AN hO LOGOS.
and the Word was God. (first in phrase for emphasis)

2 hOUTOS AN EN ARCHA PROS TON THEON.
He was in the beginning with God.

3 PANTA DI(A) AUTOU EGENETO, KAI CHORIS AUTOU EGENETO OUDE EN hO GEGONEN.
All [things] through him came to be (or "became"), and apart from him nothing came to be that has come to be.

4 EN AUTO ZOA AN, KAI hA ZWA hAN TO FOS TON ANTHROPON;
In him was life, and the life was the light of men (people);

5 KAI TO FOS EN TA SKOTIA FAINEI, KAI hA SKOTIA AUTO OU(K) KATELABEN.
and the light shines in the darkness, yet (and) the darkness did not overcome/comprehend it.

6 EGENETO ANTHROPOS APESTALMENOS PARA THEOU, ONOMA AUTO IOANNAS;
A man came sent from God, his name was John.

7 hOUTOS ALTHEN EIS MARTURIAN, hINA MARTURASA PERI TOU FOTOS, hINA PANTES PISTEUSOSIN DI(A) AUTOU.
He came to testify, in order to witness concerning the light, so that all might believe through him.

8 OUK AN EKEINOS TO FOS, ALL(A) hINA MARTURASA PERI TOU FOTOS.
He was not that light, BUT in order to witness concerning the light [he came].

9 AN TO FOS TO ALATHINON, hO FOTIZEI PANTA ANTHROPON, ERCHOMENON EIS TON KOSMON.
The light which was true, who/which enlightens all people (everyone), was coming into the world [system].

10 EN TW KOSMO AN, KAI hO KOSMOS DI(A) AUTOU EGENETO, KAI hO KOSMOS AUTON OUK EGNO.
He was in the world, and the world through him came to be, yet (and) the world did not know him.

11 EIS TA IDIA ALTHEN, KAI hOI IDIOI AUTON OU(K) PARELABON.
He came to his own, yet those [who were] his own did not receive him.

12 hOSOI DE ELABON AUTON, EDOKEN AUTOIS EDTZOUSIAN TEKNA THEOU GENESTHAI, TOIS PISTEUOUSIN EIS TO hONOMA AUTOU,
But to those receiving him, he gave to them the right to become children of God, to the ones believing in his name,

13 hOI OUK EDTZ hAIMATON OUDE(N) EK THELAMATOS SARKOS OUDE(N) EK THELAMATOS ANDROS ALL(A) EK THEOU EGENNATHASAN.
not from blood, neither from the will of the flesh, nor from the will of man (male) BUT from God the ones were born.

14 KAI hO LOGOS SARDTZ EGENETO KAI ESKANOSEN hAMIN, KAI ETHEASAMETHA TAN DODTZAN AUTOU,
And the Word became flesh and pitched a tent with us, and we gazed upon his glory,

DODTZAN hOS MONOGENOUS PARA PATROS, PLARAS CHARITOS KAI ALATHEIAS.
glory like the the one-and-only by the side of the Father, full of grace and truth.

15 IOANNAS MARTUREI PERI AUTOU KAI KEKRAGEN LEGON, hOUTOS AN hON EIPON,
John testifies concerning him and shouted saying, "This was the one of whom I said,

Ho hONISO MOU ERCHOMENOS EMPROSTHEN MOU GEGONEN, hOI PROTOS MOU AN.
'The one coming after me is preferred before me, because he was before me.'"

16 hOTI EK TOU PLAROMATOS AUTOU hAMEIS PANTES ELABOMEN KAI CHARIN CHARITOS;
Because we have all received from his fullness grace after grace.

17 hOTI hO NOMOS DIA MOUSEOS EDOTHA, hA CHARIS KAI A ALATHEIA DIA IASOU CHRISTOU EGENETO.
Because the law was given through Moses, grace and truth came to be through Jesus Christ.

18 THEON hOUDEIS EORAKEN POPOTE; MONOGENAS THEOS hO hON EIS KOLPON TOU PATROS EKEINOS EDTZAGASATA.
No one has ever seen God; the one-and-only God, who was at the place (side) of the Father, has revealed Him.

OK, let's look at this passage closely. What is the common component throughout this passage (vss. 1-18)? This passage talks about the revelation of the Word, the Son of God who became flesh at a point-in-time... the "incarnation." That is what I intend to demonstrate below, FYI, SB.

Verses 1-5 talk about His (the Word) position before he became flesh.
Verses 6-8 The role of John the Baptizer is explained. John the B. came to introduce - to announce the Messiah/Christ to the world.
Verses 9-13 There is great irony here. For we learn that though the world was created by this Coming One, who enlightens all people, the people of this world (system) though they owed their very existence to Him, did not receive Him and did not recognize Him. Specifically John tells us that His own people (the Jews) rejected their promised Messiah.
Verse 14 is the central point of these verses. We so often focus on the 1st 3 verses. But this prologue (vss. 1-18) is about the incarnation of the Son of God. It's about God becoming flesh, yet remaining God. God sent up a tent (He "tabernacled" - that's what "dwelt" literaally means) among us. John says that he and the other apostles actually beheld the glory of Christ. And that glory was that of the One who is by the very side of the Father.
Verses 15-16 tell us that John the B. was not the Christ - the one Who had been by the very side of the Father - but his purpose was as a herald of the Christ/Messiah.
Verses 17-18 tell us that grace and truth was brought to the world through Jesus Christ. Vs. 18 tells us that no one has ever seen God, but that the one-and-only God (some MSS have "Son") who was at the place (location) of the Father reveals the Father to us.

Do we see some parallels in the earlier portion of the prologue and the latter portion? Yes...

Verses 1-3 tell us that the Word was in the beginning...
verse 15 says about Christ that "The one coming after me is preferred before me, because he was before me"

Verses 1-3 tell us that the Word was with God and was in the beginning with God...
Verse 14 tells us about the glory of "the one-and-only by the side of the Father," and
Verse 18 tells us about "the one-and-only God, who was at the place (side) of the Father," and "has revealed Him."

Verse 1 tells us that the Word was God...
Verse 18 refers to the Christ as the"one-and-only God" (or perhaps "the one-and-only Son") who stands by the side of the Father.

Verse 3 tells us that all things came into being through the Word...
Verse 10 tells us that the worldcame into existence through Him,
Verse 14 tells us about the glory of this Word - who became flesh - like the glory of God, and
Verse 18 tells us that no mere man has seen the Father, but the Son has revealed Him to us.

Verse 4 tells us that in Him (the Word) was the light to the world...
Verse 7-9 tells us that John the B. came to testify of that Light, and
Verse 14 tells us that the apostle John actually beheld the chikina glory of Christ on that mount of transfiguration. (John was one of 3 disciples there.).


There was something about this that was difficult for some of John's readers to accept. Polycarp, a direct disciple of the apostle John, writes about Cerenthus, and how much John hated his heretical teachings. You see, John started out his gospel in a similar manner to his first letter ("That which was from the/a beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have beheld and handled with our hands, concerning the Word of Life.").

This is a clear reference to Jesus in the flesh - they saw and touched Him. (I mentioned this before SB, but you did not address it. This "Word" became flesh... they handled Him, saw Him, heard Him. And John's use of beginning here negates Cerenthus' claim that the man Jesus had a beginning separate from the Son of God.

So then, just why did John express it like this? IOT answer that question we have to understand the situation that existed prompting John to write this epistle. It involves the Nicolaitans you can read about in Revel. 2 and the subsequent gnosticism theology. It's chief proponent was Cerenthus at the time of the writing of John's 1st letter.

There is a story that once when John was in a bathhouse in Ephesus he was told that Cerenthus had just entered the bathhouse. He immediately got up and supposedly ran naked down the street proclaiming that he would not remain in the same building as that heretic. [:D] Perhaps that's just an interesting story, but that John was strongly opposed to Cerenthus is a fact. At least that's what some early 2nd century writings say. Polycarp said that John said, "Let us flee lest the building fall, since Cerenthus, the foe of the truth, is within it!"

What did Cerenthus teach?

He taught that Jesus was just a man born like the rest of us. That he was appointed to be the Messiah/Christ. That at the time of the baptism of Jesus by John the Baptizer that the Holy Spirit descended and came upon Jesus - entering Him, and that at that point He became Jesus the Christ - God indwelt Him. And when He gave up the Spirit on the cross that Christ departed from Him. So he taught that Jesus' resurrection was only siritual, not physical. This is obviously heresy.

But what does such a view of Christ lead to? It leads to an assumption that it does not really matter what we do in our flesh - it's only the spiritual that matters, right? Wrong. It leads to teaching that the flesh is bad, so God could not have become flesh. Eventually what results is a philosophy that we can just do whatever we want, and a doctrine about the person of Christ that is not biblical either. That was what John was battling here, and we must read the prologue of the gospel of John in that context.


Now let me be clear that I am NOT saying that Squeaky Bro believes this way and encourages such an attitude toward sin. I am trying to explain the environment in which John wrote his gospel.


Another reaction to docetism was just the opposite - that of strict ascetism and punishment of the flesh, since it is "evil." This is the heresy that John was battling when he wrote this gospel. It should be clear then, why John emphasized so of the Son of God coming in the flesh - "born" in the flesh.

Now the purpose for translating the prologue of John's gospel and showing the relationship of concepts and statements about the Word in both the early portion of the prologue with the latter portion is to show that SB's claim that the Word (hO LOGOS) throughout this prologue is referring to something that emanates from the Son of God just doesn't fit the context and won't stand up to a close scrutiny.

Now I realize this was a lot of stuff, SB. I did it because I wanted to demonstrate that your analysis sounds interesting on the surface. But when one looks closely into the text - it's quite clear what John is doing here.

The purpose of the prologue was to show to the reader that Jesus the Christ (Messiah) was with God in the beginning, created all things, and became a human being at a point in time - in history. He became flesh so that He could pay the penalty for our sin. That's the structure behind the prologue.

Please, if you disagree, then go back and consider the way the earlier part of the proplogue and the latter part are related.

Thx,

FG

 

[Squeakybro]

you said
Now I realize this was a lot of stuff, SB. I did it because I wanted to demonstrate that your analysis sounds interesting on the surface. But when one looks closely into the text - it's quite clear what John is doing here.

I said
Well carnally you did get technical.

Matt 23:24
24 "Blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!
(NKJ)

I myself just meditate and listen to the HOly Spirit.

2 Cor 11:3
3 But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
(NKJ)

I admit I'm not as Intellectual as you are, I am just a simple christian who believes the Holy Spirit.

Matt 11:25-30
25 At that time Jesus answered and said, "I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes.
26 "Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight.
27 "All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.
28 "Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 "Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
30 "For My yoke is easy and My burden is light."
(NKJ)

 

[FreeGrace]

SB,

Well, as you listen to the Holy Spirit and meditate, remember that the Spirit speaks to us through His Word.

I am not an intellectual. But I have spent tons of time in the Bible. Are you saying that's a carnal thing to do?

It is easy to just "say" that anyone who disagrees with your take on something is "carnal" and not listening to the Spirit.

But I am concerned for your salvation. If you have rejected Jesus' teaching that He was the Word - the Son of God - that He is God - how can you be saved?

FG

 

[Squeakybro]

you said
But I am concerned for your salvation. If you have rejected Jesus' teaching that He was the Word - the Son of God - that He is God - how can you be saved?

I said
My salvation is in tact. Because my salvation came from the Holy Spirit not from man. Man cant give it to me and man cant take it away from me. There is only one guarantee of salvation the Holy Spirit.

John 14:26
26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.
(NKJ)

2 Cor 5:5
5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
(NKJ)

Luke 1:77-79
77 To give knowledge of salvation to His people by the remission of their sins,
78 Through the tender mercy of our God, with which the Dayspring from on high has visited us;
79 To give light to those who sit in darkness and the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace."
(NKJ)

Phil 2:12
12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
(NKJ)

II Th 2:13-14
13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,
14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
(NKJ)

 

[Vice]

"...for unless you believe that I am He (ego eimi - cf Ex.3:14; John 8:58), you will die in your sins."

John 8:24b

 

[FreeGrace]

SB,

Just pointing out that you have not addressed John 1. Saying that someone else is carnal or not led by the Spirit is not addressing the actual Bible text. I do not have any interest in playing such games.

If you do not agree with what I posted earlier, then please explain where it is wrong.

Thx,

FG

 

[Squeakybro]

Vice let me try to help you out here. If you will read John in context you can see what Jesus was claiming. The question was "Is Jesus the Christ"
it started in John 7-39 then follow it down John 8-24 Jesus claims "I am He" then in verse 28 Jesus claims again "I am He" then later Jesus goes to claim it again and says "I am" and they took up stone to stone Him so He got out of there.

John 7:39-41
39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
40 Therefore many from the crowd, when they heard this saying, said, "Truly this is the Prophet."
41 Others said, "This is the Christ." But some said, "Will the Christ come out of Galilee?
(NKJ)

John 8:28
28 Then Jesus said to them, "When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father taught Me, I speak these things.
(NKJ)

John 8:24
24 "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."
(NKJ)

John 8:58-59
58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."
59 Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
(NKJ)

 

[Squeakybro]

Freegrace you said
Just pointing out that you have not addressed John 1. Saying that someone else is carnal or not led by the Spirit is not addressing the actual Bible text

I said
Well If I didnt I will do it now. John 1
The Word carries the same spiritual authority as God. But the Word was with God. So apparently it or He left and came down to earth looking for a home to dwell in. He the Word IS full of grace and truth.

John 1:1-2

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
(NKJ)

John 1:14
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
(NKJ)


So He the Word that is full of grace and truth is the only begotten Word of God. And He the Word found a home in Jesus because that grace and truth came through Jesus.
So what we have is the only begotten Word of God came through the only begotten Son of God Jesus.
John 1:17-18
17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.
(NKJ)

 

[Vice]

Nice try, SB, but once again, your scriptural interpretations are very short-sighted.

It's true that they were talking about whether or not Jesus was the Christ in John 8:24. But John has littered his Gospel landscape with indications that Jesus is "Christ," God in the flesh. Here are some examples:

John 1:1, 14 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God....
....and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us."

John 5:18 - For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God."

John 8:58 - "Before Abraham was, I am."

John 10:33 - "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."

I only have to look at the Greek text of John 8:24 to know exactly what Jesus meant. He used a personal pronoun in conjunction with the perfect tense of the verb "to be." Not only does the presence of the personal pronoun emphasize the "I AM," but it also coincides with the Septuagintal rendition of Ex.3:14 "kai eipen ho theos pros Mosein, 'EGO EIMI ho own.'" In other words, Jesus equated himself with the I AM of Exodus. Those who are familiar with the Greek will see that the Gospel of John is steeped with several "I AM"s. I am reading the LXX Greek right now (then I'm going back to my N/A 27th ed).

You may now "correct" me according to the spirit to whose revelations you listen.

 

[Squeakybro]

you said

John 1:1, 14 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God....
....and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us."

John 5:18 - For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God."

John 8:58 - "Before Abraham was, I am."

John 10:33 - "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."

I said
I'm sorry but I dont see anywhere that John was claiming Jesus was God.
Not even if I use my imagination can I come up with that. I do see where the Jews claimed He was saying it, but I dont see anywhere that He did say it. Its understandable why the Jews thought He said it. The Holy Spirit hadnt been given yet. But for anyone of today it doesnt make any sense. Unless the people of today are just like the Jews then, they dont have the Spirit.

John 7:39
39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
(NKJ)

 

[FreeGrace]

Vice let me try to help you out here. If you will read John in context you can see what Jesus was claiming. The question was "Is Jesus the Christ"
it started in John 7-39 then follow it down John 8-24 Jesus claims "I am He" then in verse 28 Jesus claims again "I am He" then later Jesus goes to claim it again and says "I am" and they took up stone to stone Him so He got out of there.

John 7:39-41
39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
40 Therefore many from the crowd, when they heard this saying, said, "Truly this is the Prophet."
41 Others said, "This is the Christ." But some said, "Will the Christ come out of Galilee?
(NKJ)

John 8:28
28 Then Jesus said to them, "When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father taught Me, I speak these things.
(NKJ)

John 8:24
24 "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."
(NKJ)

John 8:58-59
58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."
59 Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
(NKJ)

SB,

I'm going to address a comment you made about Vice's argument from John 8 first, before talking about John 1. In John 8, the Pharisees did not really understand who he was claiming to be. That's clear as you read it in context. In John 7 the crowd is trying to decide just who He is. Was he the Prophet or was He the Christ, or was He just some man from Galilee? (In those days the Jews understood the Prophet and the Messiah to be two different people.)

In John 8:28 Jesus says, "When you lift up the Son of Man you will know that I am." or perhaps ...that I am He. (implied)" But the Pharisees were struggling to try to figure out just who He was claiming to be.

EGO EIMI is not a very common expression in koine Greek. The verb (EIMI) expresses the subject (I), so just EIMI means "I am." But adding EGO ("I") makes it emphatic, and is rarely done. If you consider the text that Vice suggested - Exodus 3:14 - in the Greek septuagint (Greek translation of the Hebrew OT) it has the same format - EGO EIMI.

How many times is this format used in John's gospel? ("I I am" - emphatic "I am" - without an object - actual or implied) 2 times. (John 8:24 and 8:58) There're both in this chapter.

You see, there are many examples where He said I am something... "I am the light of the world," "I am the good shepherd," "I am the bread of life"... etc. But to say simply "I am" without an object (actual or implied) is quite rare. As Vice pointed out, the best way to see what Jesus intended is to observe there actions of His enemies - the Pharisees. They understood Him to be making Himself out to be God. There are also a couple instances in which He said "that I am." There an implied "he" is understood likely: "that I am He."

Incidentally, He made it emphatic in each of those cases... instead of just "EIMI whatever," He said "EGO EIMI whatever."

John 6:20 (with disciples on Sea of Galilee - but an implied "me" is understood there - "I am me," or "It is I" we'd say in English.)
John 8:24 is a clear statement of "I am" without an object either actual or implied. Let's look at that below in more detail.

John 8:28 is simply (Sorry - Greek font doesn't post here...) - "then you will know that I am." The "that" hOTI) makes it perhaps an implied "he" following the "I am," but in context it's difficult to know exactly "who" the "he" refers to here, so I included it though it does not meet the formula of "I am" without an actual or implied object. The Pharisees were clueless, it's obvious, just whom he was claiming to be. But Jesus let them struggle with it awhile longer. But when weconsider how rare "I am" format is and to say it pop up here 3 times in this chapter... it's clear what Jesus was doing.

John 8:58 This is the text Vice was speaking about. This one is so clear. It finally got through to the Pharisees.
(Greek text became junk)
"Truly, truly ("amen, amen" - Jesus is introducing a very sincere statement. He's saying, "Listen up!"), I say to you, Before Abraham was, I am."
What was the reaction of the Jews? They picked up stones to throw at Him because they understood Him to be saying that He was God.

Hve you ever considered why the Jews picked up stones to stone Jesus, SB? We know why; because the text tells us in John 10:

John 10:30-33 The Father and I are one." 31 Again the Jews picked up rocks to stone Him. 32 Jesus replied, "I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these works are you stoning Me?" 33 "We aren't stoning You for a good work," the Jews answered, "but for blasphemy, and because You--being a man--make Yourself God."

So in John 8 when the Jews picked up stones, it was to stone Him for what they understood to be blasphemy - making Himself out to be God. This is not speculation - it's what the text tells. It interprets itself.

Here's John 8:24
(Greek text - Junk again)
unless (EAN [if] MA [not] - except, unless) for (postpositive) you may believe (aorist subjunctive - expressing possibility) that I am, you will die in the sins of you.

Hence,
"For unless you believe that I am you will die in your sins."

Jesus kept saying "I am" to these Pharisees. They did not understand earlier just who he was claiming to be. Yes, of course, Jesus was claiming to be the Messiah - the Christ. But the Pharisees expected the Messiah to come politically and liberate Israel from the Roman rule. Instead, Jesus came at this time to die for us. That's why Jesus said, "If you do not believe that I am you will die in your sins." They did not understand that the God Himself was to come to deliver Israel - to be their Messiah. That's why Jesus expressed it as in Exo. 3:14. And as Jack Nicklas said, "You can't handle the truth."

We see the same thing in John 10:30, when Jesus said, "I and the Father are one." You will tell us undoubedly that Jesuswas not claiming equality with God by this statement. But the Jews clearly understood Him to be claiming equality with God, because they picked up stones to stone Him for blasphemy. Now if in John 8 if Jesus just meant "I am He - the Messiah," then why would those Jews pick up stones to stone Him for blasphemy - claiming to be God?

EGO EIMI is used in this format, without an object, only twice in John - both in this chapter 8 text. Jesus knew precisely what he was saying. The Pharisees didn't like it.

This post is long enough, so I'll stop right there.

FG

 

[FreeGrace]

Just pointing out that you have not addressed John 1. Saying that someone else is carnal or not led by the Spirit is not addressing the actual Bible text.

Well If I didnt I will do it now. John 1
The Word carries the same spiritual authority as God. But the Word was with God. So apparently it or He left and came down to earth looking for a home to dwell in. He the Word IS full of grace and truth.

John 1:1-2

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
(NKJ)

John 1:14
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
(NKJ)

So He the Word that is full of grace and truth is the only begotten Word of God. And He the Word found a home in Jesus because that grace and truth came through Jesus.
So what we have is the only begotten Word of God came through the only begotten Son of God Jesus.
John 1:17-18
17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.
(NKJ)

SB,

I don't know if you realize it, but what you are teaching is very much the same heresy that the Apostle John fought against. That's why he wrote his gospel and first letter. Research it - you'll see what I mean.

OK, here's a little background on it:

Remember that John started out this letter in a similar manner to his gospel with "That which was from the/a beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have beheld and handled with our hands, concerning the Word of Life."

So then, just why did John express it like this? Was he trying to confuse us? Obviously not. It only makes sense IMO in view of the Cerenthus heresy which was rampant at the time.

This is a clear reference to Jesus in the flesh - they saw & touched Him. And John's use of beginning here negates Cerenthus' claim that the man Jesus had a beginning separate from the Son of God

So the docetist claim that when we sinned it was merely our body, our flesh, and hence didn't matter is not true. Whenever we sin such sinning does not proceed from God... ever.

Now here is the key to why he did this: By insisting on this point, John was seeking to refute a false teaching going around at that time about sin. Sin is not, nor can it ever be, anything but satanic, evil. It can never spring from what a Christian truly is at the core of his inner regenerate being.

You see, at the time of the writing of this letter, John faced a serious heretical teaching. His chief opponent - Cerenthus. (You can read up on him just by doing some searches on the i-net.) Basically he taught that Jesus was a very good man - but just a man, & not sinless at that. However, when Jesus was baptized by John the Baptizer, & the Holy Spirit descended on Him while the Father spoke, Cerenthus taught that at that moment he was indwelt by the Christ (the Messiah). This was why He was not able to perform miracles earlier. From this point on it was taught that Jesus the Christ was sinless and was God. However, at His crucifixion, when he gave up the spirit, Christ left Jesus (I know, sounds really weird) & so Christ never really was resurrected - but only in a spiritual sense.

This was obvious heresy. It was a form of gnosticism. Basically it taught -> "flesh, bad; spirit, good." So none of us really sins since we have this new nature. It resulted in believers saying that they could do whatever they wanted, since the flesh is not of God. It doesn't really matter, he taught. You can live like the devil since it can't affect our inner being.

So you can see why John wrote many of the things he did in this letter, including saying in chapter 2:22, 23 that anyone who denies the Son also denies the Father, & that this is the spirit of the antichrist.

John taught that Jesus was sinless from eternity to eternity, but that we do all sin. If we try to refute that, as Cerenthus did, we are making God a liar.

Now, you're hypothesizing something that is not consistent with the text, or with what the Bible says about Jesus elsewhere.

You say that "the Word" created the world. Colossians 1:16 says that it was Jesus who created it. Both John's gospel and his first letter start out sounding very much like Genesis 1 - "in the beginning..."

In Him ("the Word") was life, and the life was the light of men" it says in vs. 1:4. But In John 14:6 Jesus says that He is "the way the truth and the life..." In John 8:12 Jesus said, "I am the light of the world. Anyone who follows Me will never walk in the darkness, but will have the light of life."

In John 9:5 He said, "As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world."

So then both "the Word" and"Jesus" created the world. Both are the "life" of men. Both are the light of the world. Incidentally, if the Word "found a home in Jesus" as you said, then who could it be said that both the Word and Jesus created the world, which happened a long time before this text (1:5-18). It tells us that the Word became flesh... This happened about 2000 years ago... not at the time of the creation.

And the text says, "the Word became flesh,' not that the Word entered into flesh.

Go back and read that prologue again (and beyond). There we see that John (the Baptizer) is telling people that he is not that light. He is not the Word. But a man became flesh and dwelt among us... Jesus Christ. John came to bear witness to Him (Jesus).

Do you realize that you are hypothesizing a 4th member of the trinity?...the Word. The Word is clearly a distinct person - who did things that only God can do! What you're actually doing is getting in deeper and deeper.

I re-read what you said... essentially all you said was that the Word found a home in Christ. But that is not what the text says at all. It is quite clear that the text says that jesus Christ, the Word, became flesh and lived among us. I spent a lot of time drawing parallels between the earlier part of the prologue and the latter part. I spent a lot of time supporting the fact that thetext says that "the Word was God," not "the Word was a god."

You've just quoted a few verses in the text and said very little about what it means. Here's what you actually said:

John 1
The Word carries the same spiritual authority as God. But the Word was with God. So apparently it or He left and came down to earth looking for a home to dwell in. He the Word IS full of grace and truth.

So He the Word that is full of grace and truth is the only begotten Word of God. And He the Word found a home in Jesus because that grace and truth came through Jesus.
So what we have is the only begotten Word of God came through the only begotten Son of God Jesus.

But the text never refers to the Word as "the only [begotten] Word of God."

The text never says that the Word "found a home in Jesus."

You can't just make blanket statements like those and not support them. I know, you tried to support it by quoting the text there. But it just doesn't say that. Quoting the Bible text and saying that it says something that the text doesn't say, doesn't make it correct.

SB, I think I've about had enough of this. I'm not going to continue to repeat myself. This is not a debate. This is not some game. It is about eternal life. If you do not receive Him, then you do not have that life. This is how the apostle John expressed it for people who took the same stand as you are, in his first letter:

1 John 2:18, 19 Little children, it is the last hour. And as you have heard, "Antichrist is coming," even now many antichrists have come. We know from this that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they did not belong to us; for if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. However, they went out so that it might be made clear that none of them belongs to us.

SB, you cannot deny that Christianity teaches that Jesus Christ is God's Son - is God Himself. But you deny this to be truth. As the text says above, "you have gone out from us." That is a serious position to be in. It is easy to show in church history that those early apostolic fathers and church fathers believed that Jesus was God. In fact, to call Him Lord is to say the same - in the context that it is used.

1 John 2:23, 24 No one who denies the Son can have the Father; he who confesses the Son has the Father as well. What you have heard from the beginning must remain in you. If what you have heard from the beginning remains in you, then you will remain in the Son and in the Father.

1 John 4:15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God--God remains in him and he in God.

2 John 1:9 Anyone who does not remain in the teaching about Christ, but goes beyond it, does not have God. The one who remains in that teaching, this one has both the Father and the Son.

2 John 1:7 Many deceivers have gone out into the world; they do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.

This last is what you are doing, SB. You are denying the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Instead you say that the Word "found a home in Jesus."

Here're another one from John:

John 8:19 Then they asked Him, "Where is Your Father?" "You know neither Me nor My Father," Jesus answered. "If you knew Me, you would also know My Father."

SB, we know Jesus Christ, the Son of God. We have a vibrant, living relationship with Him. These are not just words we are sharing. It is a fact that you could not have experienced a relationship with Him if you deny His deity. That is "antichrist" theology. Very dangerous.

I hope you take this seriously. Unless you humble yourself and allow God's Word to genuinely speak to your heart, you cannot cometo Him. In John 6:44 it says that no one can come to Him unless the Father draw him. And He cannot draw you unless you open your heart to His Word.

Now, I've made my spiel. Please, I wish you would sincerely address the text.

FG

 

[Squeakybro]

Col 1:9-17
9 For this reason we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;
10 that you may have a walk worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing Him, being fruitful in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God;
11 strengthened with all might, according to His glorious power, for all patience and longsuffering with joy;
12 giving thanks to the Father who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light.

I have seen alot of people get messed up on this. But if you will notice the above is all about the Father. Then it speaks below of the Son to verse 15


13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love,
14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.


But then it goes back to the Father. I have seen alot of people get mixed up on the He's and the Him's.

16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
(NKJ)

 

[FreeGrace]

SB,

Got a problem with such a forced interpretation: You have to switch it back at verse 18 again...

Colossians 1: 16-19 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. 19 For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him

Now notice that 1:18 says, "He is also head of the body, the church..." Now you must acknowledge that this is referring to Christ, yet it says "He is also..." indicating it's still talking about the same person. Andwhat is that "fullness" in vs. 19? The fulness of deity - of the godhead, as in Colossians 2:7.

Also, notice the "in Him" in vss. 17 and 19? Paul only uses that to refer to Christ.

You can't just parcel out the text the way you want it to read.

Listen, I'm going to be going home soon. So you have a good weekend. Talk to you on Monday. (You too Vice... say, why'd you pick that name?)

FG

 

[Squeakybro]

you said
Got a problem with such a forced interpretation: You have to switch it back at verse 18 again...

I said
Your right very good. Have a nice weekend.

 

[FreeGrace]

SB,

Hope you had a refreshing weekend.

Listen, I don't think we're making a lot of progress here. :D Perhaps you could share with us something about your spiritual journey. If you're intersted, I'll share my own also.

Thx,

FG