Bible Study The Begotten Word of God

[Squeakybro]

I had a very nice weekend. I dont know what you mean. I guess my walk was alot like Pauls.

 

[FreeGrace]

I had a very nice weekend. I dont know what you mean. I guess my walk was alot like Pauls.

I think mine was probably more like Peter's... always putting my foot in my mouth!

Tell us about it. I'm genuinely curious what led you to the point you're at now.

Thx,

FG

 

[Squeakybro]

I still dont know what you mean. But 25 years ago I opened a bible. Because I wanted to know what love was. I started reading and the first thing I read was God hates pride and wisdom and knowledge is a gift. So I kept putting it in until it started coming back out. Then after afew years I would ask questions and I would get a verse. The Holy Spirit was answering my questions with the verses. Then I asked well how can I know the Holy Spirit and not be deceived. He gave me this

John 14:26
26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.
(NKJ)

After that I started trusting Him and relying on Him. And it has been that way for 20 years. He has never been wrong yet.

 

[FreeGrace]

I still dont know what you mean. But 25 years ago I opened a bible. Because I wanted to know what love was. I started reading and the first thing I read was God hates pride and wisdom and knowledge is a gift. So I kept putting it in until it started coming back out. Then after afew years I would ask questions and I would get a verse. The Holy Spirit was answering my questions with the verses. Then I asked well how can I know the Holy Spirit and not be deceived. He gave me this

John 14:26
26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.
(NKJ)

After that I started trusting Him and relying on Him. And it has been that way for 20 years. He has never been wrong yet.

SB,

Thx. Tell us about how you came to believe that Jesus Christ is not God. (I'm not looking to attack, just understand.)

Thx again,

FG

 

[Squeakybro]

you said
Tell us about how you came to believe that Jesus Christ is not God. (I'm not looking to attack, just understand.)

I said
I didnt come to believe that, I always believed that. I wasnt enfluenced by any denomination or peer presure or relatives into believing in the trinity. So I didnt have to accept theories like the trinity. I turned to the Lord myself when He called and believed what I read. Everyone I know that does believe in the trinity got their start on it from someone else not from the Word of God. They couldnt because it isnt in scripture.

 

[FreeGrace]

you said
Tell us about how you came to believe that Jesus Christ is not God. (I'm not looking to attack, just understand.)

I said
I didnt come to believe that, I always believed that. I wasnt enfluenced by any denomination or peer presure or relatives into believing in the trinity. So I didnt have to accept theories like the trinity. I turned to the Lord myself when He called and believed what I read. Everyone I know that does believe in the trinity got their start on it from someone else not from the Word of God. They couldnt because it isnt in scripture.

SB,

Thx. I guess you haven't met anyone then, who came to believe in Jesus Christ, and from reading scripture, assumed that saying he is the Son of God meant He is God?

FG

 

[Squeakybro]

you said
Thx. I guess you haven't met anyone then, who came to believe in Jesus Christ, and from reading scripture, assumed that saying he is the Son of God meant He is God?

I said
You should reread this. I am the one that says Jesus IS NOT God.

 

[FreeGrace]

you said
Thx. I guess you haven't met anyone then, who came to believe in Jesus Christ, and from reading scripture, assumed that saying he is the Son of God meant He is God?

I said
You should reread this. I am the one that says Jesus IS NOT God.

I said,

SB,

Thx. I guess you haven't met anyone then, who came to believe in Jesus Christ, and from reading scripture, assumed that saying he is the Son of God meant He is God?

Are you saying that you've never met anyone who cameto believe in Christ through reading the Bible and who also, contrary to yourself, came to believe that to say that Jesus isthe Son of God (no one denies this) means that he is God.

I think you need to reread it as well. I actualy said what I meant. Sorry if it's not clear.

FG

 

[Squeakybro]

Everyone I ever met that believed in the trinity had to get it from someone else. Because it isnt in scripture. The word trinity isnt in scripture. The word deity isnt in scripture, the word divinity isnt in scripture. And I dont think any of them have ever looked up the definition of the word deity or divinity. Even the word divinity means that Jesus isnt God. Jesus is inferior to God.

deity 1 a: often cap : divine nature or rank: the essintial nature of a god or of a supreme being: DIVINITY

di-vin-i-ty 1:the quality or state of being divine: nature or essence of God: GODHEAD (the divinity of Jesus) a celestial being inferior to the supreme God but superior to man<one of the subservient divinities>

 

[FreeGrace]

Everyone I ever met that believed in the trinity had to get it from someone else. Because it isnt in scripture. The word trinity isnt in scripture. The word deity isnt in scripture, the word divinity isnt in scripture. And I dont think any of them have ever looked up the definition of the word deity or divinity. Even the word divinity means that Jesus isnt God. Jesus is inferior to God.

deity 1 a: often cap : divine nature or rank: the essintial nature of a god or of a supreme being: DIVINITY

di-vin-i-ty 1:the quality or state of being divine: nature or essence of God: GODHEAD (the divinity of Jesus) a celestial being inferior to the supreme God but superior to man<one of the subservient divinities>

Thx SB.

I asked you to feel free to express yourself, so though I do not fully agree with what you said, I'm not going to comment on it. I appreciate your comments.

Please allow me to answer the same question. I have met some people who had absolutely no experience in the Bible or Christianity prior to my meeting with them. They were new to the US, and came from an area, such as mainland China or the Middle East, in which Christianity is thoroughly restricted - it is against the law.

I encouraged them to read the Bible. In doing so, their natural understanding was that the writings they were reading were proclaiming a Jesus who was God.

Your assertion that the deity of Christ does not naturally follow and is not taught in the Bible is simply not true. You may have read some of the Bible and do not see it. Most have sincerely done the same and clearly see it. IMO, you have been blinded by Satan.

The word "trinity" is not found anywhere in the Bible. But the deity of Jesus Christ is clearly taught in the Bible.

Now, this discussion all started when I found this thread in which you'd posted some stuff about the meaning of the term "begotten" and "firstborn." What exactly do they mean? Does it mean that after Mary gave birth to Jesus that she had other children as well - Jesus being the first, or does it have more of a theological meaning to it as used in the NT? Some think that it means that Jesus was a created being - the 1st of God's created beings.

Well, as I said earlier, the Greek term prototokos can refer either to first in order of time, such as a first born child, or it could refer to one who is preeminent in rank - priority. In Colossians we need to take the usage in context to get a clear meaning.

The "firstborn" was either the eldest child in a family or a person of preeminent rank. I then posted some Greek grammatical stuff to show that John 1:1c is speaking about the Word, Jesus Christ, being with God from the very beginning and also being very God in nature.

Now, we've gone around and around, but you've never refuted those comments. You've ignored almost every one of them. You've suggested that the Word referred to in John 1:1-3 is not the same Word in the verses that follow. You said, "Jesus Christ is not the Word. Jesus Christ is the human that submitted to the Word as an example to us, to follow. Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God. That the only begotten Word of God came through." But you have not been able to defend that from the Bible.

To our arguments you simply make comments that we are relying on human wisdom, yet you are getting your understanding directly from the Spirit. In saying such you are actually defending the trinity which you oppose.

I went through in great detail all of John's gospel, pointing out places where the deity of Christ is clearly asserted. You made no comments on my post there at all. Then I posted on the Greek of John 1:1 and how the article is used in Greek. You're response?

Freegrace do you know what this means?

Matt 23:24
24 "Blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!

Nothing. You made absolutely no comments on the post. I responded asking you to comment on it. Your response? You posted a few verses saying, "He the only begotten Word of God full of grace and truth found and came through the only begotten Son of God Jesus." You still did not address my post. You just repeated your earlier comments.

Then Free asked you to address it. You merely put him down. I commented,

SB,

This seems to be going downhill rapidly. The idea here is not to win some debate. The idea is that we must all stand before Christ one day. That is a serious issue then. Just who you believe Jesus Christ to be has serious consequences. I do not wish to get involved in give-and-take put-downs.

So I then posted in great detail again, showing how the entire prologue speaks of the Word, who is Christ - thus addressing your assertion about the Word coming through Christ ("He the Word found His first home in Jesus."), but not actually being Christ. I addressed your assertion in detail.

I demonstrated that in Revelation the Word is identified as the Son and is called "King of kings and Lord of lords." Your response? To put me down using the same quotes, which were clearly just cut-n-pasted again. You then merely made the same post about the begotten Word coming through the begotten Son - same post. You completely ignored every one of my posts - never addressing any points I made.

I then translated the entire prologue carefully. I showed how your premise just doesn't fit the text. It's from your mind. It does not come from scripture. I started with what you claimed and demonstrated that it didn't fit the text in context.

Your response? "Well carnally you did get technical." Nothing. Absolutely nothing. When I have repeatedly asked you to address the text, you have merely labeled me and repeated the same things you've said before. You have not addressed hat the Bible says in John 1.

I addressed each one of your claims. You've completely ignored mine.

Then I addressed an earlier comment (by Free I think) about Jesus being EGO EIMI - "I am." I went into Greek grammatical detail on this and supported his claim from OT and NT scripture.

Your comment? You quoted Col 1:9-17 - one of my points that you actually had something to say about - saying that I was getting it confused, missing where there was a switch from talking about the Son to the Father.

I took that argument in context and demonstrated that if there was a switch, then Paul must have switched immediately back to the Son again... making it "the Son, the Father, uh-oh, back to the Son." I also pointed out the "in Him" in vss. 17 and 19 which Paul only uses to refer to Christ.

Again, you ignored my arguments which refuted your point.

At this point, I asked if you would share your spiritual journey with us. I did this because, though you are ignoring arguments that make it clear that Jesus Christ is God, I do not wish to win a debate and lose someone for Christ.

But it seems apparent that your mind is made up - it is closed. So, as Jesus advised, I'm not going to throw my pearls before swine. (Not a name-calling - just an application). To use another illustration, I am going to "shake the dust off my sandals" and move on - to talk with someone who will interact with my points - taken from scripture.

You are not open to the Word of God, Squeakybro. When you are ready to address the points I have made, let me know. (PM me.)

FreeGrace

 

[Squeakybro]

you said
Again, you ignored my arguments which refuted your point.

I said
I didnt ignore you. I gave you the Word that the Holy Spirit gave me. I think maybe you dont understand the difference between the milk and the meat. The meat has to be done with the verses not opinions. You think you are disputing what I shared with you with your opinion. That cant be done in the meat. You think your opinion is valid but it isnt if you are ever going to get in the meat understanding.

Rom 12:16
16 Be of the same mind toward one another. Do not set your mind on high things, but associate with the humble. Do not be wise in your own opinion.
(NKJ)

God doesnt send anyone to minister for Him carnally.

John 3:34
34 "For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God does not give the Spirit by measure.
(NKJ)

Sanctified is the washing of water by the Word(verses). Carnal knowledge is not what we rely on. If we dont have the Word then where are we getting our knowledge?


1 Cor 8:1-2

1 Now concerning things offered to idols: We know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but love edifies.
2 And if anyone thinks that he knows anything, he knows nothing yet as he ought to know.
(NKJ)

But if we have the Holy Spirit we can know as a guarantee where the knowledge is coming from.

John 14:26
26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.
(NKJ)

2 Cor 5:5
5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
(NKJ)

Your putting your faith in human wisdom and not in the Spirit.

1 Cor 2:4-5
4 And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,
5 that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.
(NKJ)

If you trust in your human wisdom your still in the flesh and carnal.

Rom 8:4-8
who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
(NKJ)

 

[FreeGrace]

SB,

This is a joke. When you're ready to actually just answer the points I made, please PM me. I used plenty of scripture.

Otherwise, it's just a waste of time.

FG

 

[Squeakybro]

I dont understand your reply. But ok

 

[Vice]

you said
Again, you ignored my arguments which refuted your point.

I said
I didnt ignore you. I gave you the Word that the Holy Spirit gave me. I think maybe you dont understand the difference between the milk and the meat. The meat has to be done with the verses not opinions. You think you are disputing what I shared with you with your opinion. That cant be done in the meat. You think your opinion is valid but it isnt if you are ever going to get in the meat understanding.


God doesnt send anyone to minister for Him carnally.


Sanctified is the washing of water by the Word(verses). Carnal knowledge is not what we rely on. If we dont have the Word then where are we getting our knowledge?



But if we have the Holy Spirit we can know as a guarantee where the knowledge is coming from.


Your putting your faith in human wisdom and not in the Spirit.


If you trust in your human wisdom your still in the flesh and carnal.

I'm going to play your little game here for a minute.

My Holy Spirit told me not to listen to someone like you:


"...Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the Gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned." --Gal 1:7b-8

" I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them. For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people." --Romans 16:17-18


My Jesus told me who he was:


""I tell you the truth" Jesus answered, "before Abraham was, I am!"" -John 8:58

"Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen.

"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty." --Rev.1:8


It doesn't matter if you keep quoting your Bible, because you're using your own wisdom and preaching a different Jesus.


"For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve." --2 Cor 11:13-15


You need a "meat" understanding of the Bible because you're still at the "milk" stage.

 

[Squeakybro]

Vice you said
""I tell you the truth" Jesus answered, "before Abraham was, I am!"" -John 8:58

I said
It appears you fell for the "I am delusion"
THE I AM DELUSION
John 7:39-43
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
40 Many of the people therefore, when they heard this saying, said, Of a truth this is the Prophet.
41 Others said, This is the Christ. But some said, Shall Christ come out of Galilee?
42 Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was?
43 So there was a division among the people because of him.
John 7:51-52
51 Doth our law judge any man, before it hear him, and know what he doeth?
52 They answered and said unto him, Art thou also of Galilee? Search, and look: for out of Galilee ariseth no prophet.
John 8:1-2
1 Jesus went unto the mount of Olives.
2 And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.
John 8:12
12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
John 8:16-18
16 And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.
17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.
18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.
John 8:21
21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.
John 8:23-24
23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
John 8:28-29
28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.
John 8:58-59
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
(KJV)
xxx Jesus was teaching in the temple and they were questioning Him on whether or not He was the Christ. Then they all went home and came back the next day to question Him some more. When Jesus told them: you will die in your sins if you do not believe that I am He. Then in verse 58 Jesus was telling them that even before Abraham that I am . But they picked up stones to throw at Him so they cut Jesus off in the middle of His sentance and Jesus got out of there. Jesus was claiming that" I AM He" the Christ. Jesus was not claiming He was God.
verse 24 and 28 Jesus said it, I am he. Jesus was saying He was the Christ that they were speaking of in John 7-41. But in is obvious why they didnt understand from John 7-39 they havent received the Holy Spirit yet. And even today many do not know the Spirit and get deceived in the verses.

 

[FreeGrace]

Hello SB. Hope you had a refreshing weekend.

I am quite busy today, so I'll have to be brief (relatively) with this.

First-of-all, you are not addressing the fact that the Jews picked up stones to stone Jesus. Why did they do this? Because they believed Him to be blaspheming. How? By claiming to be a man. We have a similar scenario in chapter 10 of John in which again, the Jews understood exactly what He was claiming about Himself and "the Jews took up stones again to stone Him" ( John 10:31). They even explained that the reason they were about to stone Him to death is "because You, being a man, make yourself out to be God" ( John 10:33). When one of His disciples said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father" (John 14:8) , Jesus said to him:

"Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how do you say, 'Show us the Father'?" (John 14:9)

I am a member of a Bible translation email group, and one of the moderators of the group is a professional translator. He gave the following explanaiton/summary of John 8. Let me preface this by saying that he refers to a Hebraic "chiasm." This is a poetic style quite common among the Jews, which can be seen in the OT and also in many places in the NT as well. (His name is Mike Sangrey, BTW - I wish to give him credit.):

If I understand your point correctly, you're saying Jesus is claiming that his birth precedes Abraham becoming a great nation. Why then would the Jews respond by trying to stone Jesus?

<snip> Removing interpretation from the analytical process makes all grammatical constructions of this small size ambiguous. I'll grant you that we have to make sure the grammar supports the interpretive questions; but the questions hone the meaning of the text which is what we're really after. I'm also not disparaging your interpretive questions, I just don't think the text supports where you're heading. Why can I say that?

I've pretty much come to the conclusion that John is a highly structured book. John 8:56-58 is but a small piece of a much larger structure and if one sees the larger structure, then the ambiguity of vs 58 disappears. (I've noticed a lot of this when I do exegesis--the ambiguity of the grammar simply evaporates when one sees the way the text is structured. It's like there's this "macro-grammar" that disambiguates the "micro-grammar", if you will.)

A while ago I was trying to figure out why 8:30-32 appeared to not cohere with the surrounding text; I noticed some intriguing things. Vs 21 has Jesus going away and the audience not being able to find him.
That syncs up with vs 59 where Jesus slips through the Pharisee's fingers and escapes from the temple. Also, vs 25 asks the question, "who are you?". That syncs up with vs 53 which asks, "who do you claim to be?" The end result of my study was that 30-32 is the center of the chiasm of 8:21-59. The centrality of that text makes a lot of sense to me given the theme of the entire book: 20:30-31.

What that chiasm ends up meaning for our discussion here is that 23-24 syncs up with 54-58. 23-24 says,
Jesus replied, "You people are from below; I am from above. You
people are from this world; I am not from this world. Thus I
told you that you will die in your sins. For unless you believe
that I am he, you will die in your sins." (NET)

That's essentially Jesus claiming to be the Messiah (the Christ) and having come from somewhere else (heaven). The Pharisees respond by wanting him to clarify exactly who he thinks he is--did they understand what they just thought they heard? John (and Jesus) make it clear to the reader that the Pharisees just aren't getting it. Jesus says it will be clear to the Pharisees when they crucify him (vs28). What's he saying? He's saying that the death, burial, and resurrection will prove that Jesus, the Messiah, is "God with us." (cf Phil. 2:5-11, another chiastic structure).

So, noticing this chiastic structure makes 8:56-58 quite clear.

Here's a summary of the (Hebrew - poetic) chiasm of John 8:21-59:

21-22 Pharisses will die and not follow Jesus where he is going.
|
| 23-24 Jesus is from heaven
| |
| | 25 Who are you?
| | |
| | | 25b-29 When you lift up (crucify) the Son of Man (ideal
| | | human being), you will know.
| | | |
| | | | 30-32 Many believed Jesus
| | | |
| | | | / 33-44 The Jews might be Abraham's children,
| | | | | but Abraham would not have wanted to kill Jesus.
| | | | |
| | | -+ 45-46 Jesus is perfectly innocent.
| | | |
| | | | 47-53a Jesus' message is the message from the
| | | | Father and the Jews have no clue what the Father
| | | | is really saying. If they did, they would not die.
| | |
| | 53b Who do you think you are?
| |
| 54-58 Jesus has seen Abraham because he (Jesus) pre-existed
| Abraham.
|
59 Pharisees seek to kill Jesus but he slips away in such a way that
they don't see where he got to.

<snip>


Mike Sangrey

 

[Squeakybro]

your friend Mike Sangrey
Seems to start out with the truth and then through his intellectual reasoning turns it right back around. He should of kept it simple.

Matt 23:24
24 "Blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!
(NKJ)

2 Cor 11:3
3 But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
(NKJ)

 

[FreeGrace]

your friend Mike Sangrey
Seems to start out with the truth and then through his intellectual reasoning turns it right back around. He should of kept it simple.

Matt 23:24
24 "Blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!
(NKJ)

2 Cor 11:3
3 But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
(NKJ)

SB,

You're doing it again - not addressing any of the points that either Mike or I made. Like I said - when you're ready to discuss this - PM me. This is about life and death. We're not playing games here. I asked you where you were coming from because I was genuinely interested.

FG

 

[Squeakybro]

What points. I didnt see any point that made sense to me.

 

[FreeGrace]

First-of-all, you are not addressing the fact that the Jews picked up stones to stone Jesus. Why did they do this? Because they believed Him to be blaspheming. How? By claiming to be a man. We have a similar scenario in chapter 10 of John in which again, the Jews understood exactly what He was claiming about Himself and "the Jews took up stones again to stone Him" ( John 10:31). They even explained that the reason they were about to stone Him to death is "because You, being a man, make yourself out to be God" ( John 10:33). When one of His disciples said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father" (John 14:8) , Jesus said to him:

"Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how do you say, 'Show us the Father'?" (John 14:9)

and

If I understand your point correctly, you're saying Jesus is claiming that his birth precedes Abraham becoming a great nation. Why then would the Jews respond by trying to stone Jesus?

So, IOW, this is notjust claiming to have a birth before Abraham's (making him extremely old!) but they understood Him to be claiming to be God.)

Forget about the Hebrew chiasm structure there.

I directly addressed your understanding about how the passage was structured. I should haveadded earlier that I appreciate that you explained how you viewed that in some detail. I always appreciate that.