The Bible Doesn't Say Anything

[new covenant preacher]

Lumping all Christians as born again believers does not fit, there are tares among the wheat that give confusion and a bad name to the born again believer. It is not diversity of beliefs, it is a plant to disrupt, by the enemy. (Matt. 13:24-30)

Papa, we are the problem for sure. But the answer available to all is to truly be Born Again and receive Christ's Spirit of Truth that will not lead us astray.

Douglas is absolutely correct. True Christian doctrine and the understanding of the same is satans greatest fear.

 

[JohnDB]

OK guys,
Let's leave the sarcasm for the Atheists and God and Paul to perform.

This is a non debate forum.

Season your speech with grace.

 

[new covenant preacher]

I attended an Orthodox funeral Today. I noticed that the deceased person had a piece of paper on his forehead with lettering on it. The deceased person also had some type of prayer written on it. After the priest blessed and annointed the body,

Bless and anoint a dead body??
A little late for that I figure
Just Saying LOL

 

[JohnDB]

I attended an Orthodox funeral Today. I noticed that the deceased person had a piece of paper on his forehead with lettering on it. The deceased person also had some type of prayer written on it. After the priest blessed and annointed the body,

Bless and anoint a dead body??
A little late for that I figure
Just Saying LOL

The living can't pray for the dead...
But those who are in Heaven can "run ahead" with a message from us... problem is they gotta know about it while they are still with us.

But I got my message sent. Pat was a dear friend of mine who is now with Jesus...and preaching to the preacher just before she passed with the good news I explained to her. She wasn't just saved...she was excited about cashing in. No fear at all. Faith as solid as a rock.

She told me that she didn't think I needed a good word put in for me but that she would try. I told her that I needed all the help I could get.

Her brother is a good guy. I like him too. And he appreciates the peace that came between them. (Sibling rivalry). She used what I explained to her. Told him where her attitude change came from.

I found it amazing how powerful the Good News really is.

 

[ezra]

I attended an Orthodox funeral Today. I noticed that the deceased person had a piece of paper on his forehead with lettering on it. The deceased person also had some type of prayer written on it. After the priest blessed and annointed the body,

Bless and anoint a dead body??
A little late for that I figure
Just Saying LOL

hey some take a living person and baptize them for the dead

 

[Jim Parker]

hey some take a living person and baptize them for the dead

Apparently, that was an acceptable practice at the time Paul was writing two thirds of the New Testament.
1Co 15:29 Otherwise, what do people mean by being baptized on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized on their behalf?

 

[ezra]

Apparently, that was an acceptable practice at the time Paul was writing two thirds of the New Testament.
1Co 15:29 Otherwise, what do people mean by being baptized on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized on their behalf?

i have no doubt many things that are practiced in the today church .has filtered over through out the years.. some good some not . on a lighter not the body of Christ has accepted things of the world. we do the big bands for praise and worship repeat the same lyrics 5 times and call it worship. we build big beautiful churches THAT HOLD THOUSANDS yet people remain lost

 

[Nick]

I have done a major cleanup of this thread. What started out with a lot of promise, and such as great OP was ruined by people who insisted on personally attacking one another, discussing RCC doctrine and repeatedly failing to privately contact the moderator if they disagreed with staff action.

I will re-open this thread in 24 hours time.

 

[Nick]

Thread is back open as a second chance.

 

[Jim Parker]

Thread is back open as a second chance.

whoopie!

 

[ezra]

thou shalt not

 

[Kidron]

Apparently, that was an acceptable practice at the time Paul was writing two thirds of the New Testament.
1Co 15:29 Otherwise, what do people mean by being baptized on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized on their behalf?

-
This verse is not talking about one person being baptized for someone else who is dead.
Its speaking symbolically about the person themselves being baptized as a symbolic act......for themselves, regarding their "new birth".

Like this :

However, people are baptized because the dead [will come back to life]. What will they do? If the dead can't come back to life, why do people get baptized as if THEY CAN [come back to life]?

= "they".......this is the point of view..........its referring to the person themselves who is being baptized.

 

[for_his_glory]

And yet the Bible is not word by word because many words don't translate well. Baptism is one such word as there was no English equivalent for that word.

How are you going to know that what you say lines up with exactly what is written? And why do you have to say anything at all? Just quote the Bible and say nothing else. Why not that?

Everything we read whether a book, newspaper or whatever is done by reading word by word that is written so we can understand that of what the writer wants us to know. Unless one is a scholar of the Hebrew and Greek and knows how to read in those languages then all I or anyone else has is the English version of the Bible.

In the simplicity of the newer versions of the English Bible that have been written over the years many words have taken on different meanings as our English translates various meanings for just one word. 1John 4:1-6 is how we know if what one is speaking lines up with scripture and John 14:26 is how we know what is being taught us is truth by allowing the Holy Spirit teach us. I know, everyone says the Holy Spirit has taught them, but it's up to each individual to test the spirits that are speaking to know for a surety of what we are hearing is truth or error.

Why do we have to say anything at all is because many are yet without knowledge or just rely on man to teach them without studying for themselves. This is why we discuss the word amongst us to possibly see something we have never understood before. After all it's the Holy Spirit that is to be speaking through others and it's up to us to Spiritually discern what is being taught us. The Bible is literal where it needs to be and Spiritual where God wants us to understand the deeper things of His word.

 

[chessman]

You can look to see what was the original teaching of the church.
http://www.tertullian.org/fathers2/
It is not written in modern American English and will require some effort but it is very much worth it.

jim

Tertullian contributed nill to the "original teachings of the church", though he quoted some verses from it. He was as originally as Pagan as Constantine was. He was a son of a Roman centurian and a lawyer in Rome then Carthage. Tertullian was convicted to look into the original teachings of the church (written through the inspired Apostles of Christ 100 years earlier than Tertullian wrote) by first witnessing little Christian girls being eaten alive by lions simply for being Christian and refusing to denounce Christ as Lord. He thought there might just be something to this Christian cult and started checking in to it through their history, not his own.


https://www.theopedia.com/tertullian

 

[Jim Parker]

Tertullian contributed nill to the "original teachings of the church"

AH!
I see your point.
He did not write any scripture. True.
What he did is record the teaching of the apostles and contribute commentary help posterity understand their teaching.
You are aware, I hope, that not everything the apostles taught is recorded in scripture.
2Ti 2:2 And the things that you have heard from me among many witnesses, commit these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.
2Th 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.
Jhn 21:25 And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written

 

[chessman]

What he did is record the teaching of the apostles and contribute commentary help posterity understand their teaching.

The apotles were long since dead by the time Tertullian was born, much less converted to Christianity and began His study of the original church teachings (Scripture).

Like the rest of us, he studied the apostle's writings and original church teaches through copies of there inspired accounts, not from them directly face-to-face.

You are aware, I hope, that not everything the apostles taught is recorded in scripture.

I'm sure it's not. Peter probably taught his younger brother how to fish and mend nets. But that has zero to do with Tertullian being part of the original church. He wasn't.

2Ti 2:2 And the things that you have heard from me among many witnesses, commit these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.

And Timothy did just that as a co-author with Paul and The Holy Spirit with his original teachings to the faithful men in: Corinth

2 Corinthians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, to the church of God being in Corinth, together-with all the saints being in all Achaia:​

Philippi

Philippians 1:1-2 Paul and Timothy, slaves of Christ Jesus, to all the saints in Christ Jesus being in Philippi, together-with the overseers and deacons: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.​

Colossae

Colossians 1:1-2 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, to the saints and faithful brothers in Christ in Colossae: Grace to you and peace from God our Father.​

Thessalonica

1 Thessalonians 1:1 Paul and Silvanus and Timothy to the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace. ​

I'd count Timothy as an original church teacher for these reasons.

But again, that has zero to do with Tertullian being an original church teacher. He wasn't.

 

[Jim Parker]

Like the rest of us, he studied the apostle's writings and original church teaches through copies of there inspired accounts, not from them directly face-to-face.

Not quite.
UNLIKE the rest of us, he read the accounts in his own language and lived in the time and culture in which they were written.
His understanding was not at all colored by the influence of modern, western culture and the limitations of translation of the original languages into English as we are. (Some more than others due to their insistence on reading the KJV, which is in a language [Late Middle English] that is no longer spoken, and some modern American readers have less than adequate reading and comprehension skills which further inhibit their understanding.)

Peter probably taught his younger brother how to fish and mend nets.

That totally misses the point.

But that has zero to do with Tertullian being part of the original church. He wasn't.

Tertullian lived from c. 155 to c. 240 AD. That was the time of the original, undivided Church of which he was part.

Timothy did just that as a co-author with Paul

Those are opening greetings which were standard literary form in the first century Roman Empire. They do not tell us that Timothy co-authored anything. All they tell us is "Paul and Tim say, 'Hi!'."
They are the letters of PAUL to the churches. They contain PAUL's teaching.

I'd count Timothy as an original church teacher for these reasons.

So?

 

[chessman]

UNLIKE the rest of us, he read the accounts in his own language and lived in the time and culture in which they were written.

No he didn't.
Tertullian was raised a Roman pagan, spoke and wrote in Latin and lived and worked in Africa more than 100 years and 2,000 mile WALK removed from the original Jewish culture of the original church teachings (Scripture)

He learned Koine Greek just like a lot of people still do today.

 

[chessman]

Not quite.
UNLIKE the rest of us, he read the accounts in his own language and lived in the time and culture in which they were written.

Here's a quote from Tertullian himself stating just how different his culture was from the original Christian church's culture and where it is he thought original Christian teachings came from (Scripture, just as I said):

CHAP. VII.--PAGAN PHILOSOPHY THE PARENT OF HERESIES. THE CONNECTION BETWEEN DEFLECTIONS FROM CHRISTIAN FAITH AND THE OLD SYSTEMS OF PAGAN PHILOSOPHY
What indeed has Athens to do with Jerusalem? What concord is there between the Academy and the Church? what between heretics and Christians? Our instruction comes from "the porch of Solomon," who had himself taught that "the Lord should be sought in simplicity of heart."

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/tertullian11.html​

The culture in which Tertullian lived feed little Christian girls to lions and burned them alive precisely because his culture were so antithetical to the original Christian culture. Nor did his culture speak the same language as the original Christians. And once again, Tertullian lived 100 years after the original Christian church and over 2,000 miles removed from them.

Our (Christian) instructions coves from "the porch of Solomon" NOT Greece. Sorry.

A Crowd Comes Together, And Peter Speaks To Them:
11 And while he was holding-on-to Peter and John, all the people ran-together to them at the portico being called “Solomon’s”, struck-with-wonder. 12 And having seen it, Peter responded to the people—

God Raised Jesus, The One You Denied And Killed. And Jesus Healed This Man
“Men, Israelites, why are you marveling at this? Or why are you looking-intently at us as-if we caused him to walk by our own power or godliness? 13 The God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob, the God of our fathers— He glorified His servant Jesus, Whom you indeed handed-over and denied in the presence of Pilate, that one having determined to release Him. 14 But you denied the Holy and Righteous One, and asked that a man who was a murderer be granted to you. 15 And you killed the Author of life, Whom God raised from the dead— of which we are witnesses. 16 And on-the-basis-of [our] faith in His name, His name made this one strong whom you see and know. And the faith that comes through Him gave him this wholeness in front of all of you.​

Tertullian lived from c. 155 to c. 240 AD. That was the time of the original, undivided Church of which he was part

The following occurred over 150 years prior to Tertullian's birth:

Acts 2:42 Disciples’ Literal New Testament (DLNT)
Life In The First Church: The Apostles Teach and Do Miracles, Believers Learn And Love

42 Now they were devoting-themselves to the teaching of the apostles and to fellowship, to the breaking of the bread and to prayers.
... And the Lord was adding the ones being saved daily at-the-same-place.​

The original, undivided Church's teachings, were given by the apostles and the Lord more than 100 years prior to Tertullian's birth and more than 2,000 miles away from his place of conversion and in a different language to his native language (just like lots of us today). Plain and simple.

Tertullian himself tells us where the original teachings of the Christian church came from ("the sayings of the Lord, and of the letters of the apostles")" (i.e the New Testament)

CHAP. IV.--WARNINGS AGAINST HERESY GIVEN US IN THE NEW TESTAMENT. SUNDRY PASSAGES ADDUCED. THESE IMPLY THE POSSIBILITY OF FALLING INTO HERESY.
But let us rather be mindful of the sayings of the Lord, and of the letters of the apostles; 245
for they have both told us beforehand that there shall be heresies, and have given us, in anticipation, warnings to avoid them; and inasmuch as we are not alarmed because they exist, so we ought not to wonder that they are capable of doing that, on account of which they must be shunned. The Lord teaches us that many "ravening wolves shall come in sheep's clothing." ...​

None of us have any need whatsoever for anyone in the later church fathers to teach us that many "ravening wolves shall come in sheep's clothing". Jesus took care of that teaching (for example), just fine.

Those are opening greetings which were standard literary form in the first century Roman Empire.

Yep, it's standard for the authors to greet their intended recipients (still is today):

Colossians 1:28 Disciples’ Literal New Testament (DLNT)
28 Whom we are proclaiming, admonishing every person, and teaching every person with all wisdom, in order that we may present every person mature in Christ,​

Why say "we"( versus "I") if Paul was the only person proclaiming, admonishing and teaching them in this letter??? (no need to answer)

They do not tell us that Timothy co-authored anything

Yes they do, along with Jesus' co-authorship being stated. If they were merely saying Timothy says 'hi' to y'all (which BTW is covered later on in many of these letters), was Paul From: To: introduction also telling the recipients of the letter that Jesus says 'hi' also??? (no need to answer).

 

[Runner]

God may speak clearly but Christians don't hear clearly. There are 4 major views on Hell and 4 major views on Eternal Security plus several views on the role of Water Baptism in a believer's life. Do we as believers always know what is false? NO We do not. It's clear from all the competing ideas and interpretations out there. God isn't the problem, we are.

The actual problem is in defining what you are seeing as a "problem." Is it critical to any Christian to have the "correct" view of Hell, Eternal Security or Water Baptism? No. The true Christian essentials - the doctrines on which salvation actually hinges - can be stated in such broad, simple terms that virtually no one claiming to be a follower of Christ would disagree with them. The fact that there are multiple views of Eternal Security is not a "problem" at all but enriches one's understanding if one takes the time and effort (as few do) to inform himself about those views.

I remember vividly thinking years ago that I would nail down the correct understanding of the Atonement once and for all. All I learned was: you can't. There are multiple perspectives on the Atonement, all valid and all held by scholars of equal standing. If you recognize and accept this, your understanding of the Atonement becomes broader, deeper and richer. The essential doctrine is that Christ's life, death and resurrection somehow allow us to be reconciled to God. "How it works" is, if not completely irrelevant, certainly very secondary.

There is one "reality" and one "problem." The reality is that God has not laid out any of these doctrines in a way that is entirely clear or free from ambiguity. He has left them open to multiple interpretations and understandings by sincere and intelligent believers acting in good faith. Obviously, God being God, this had to have been what He intended.

It is correct that "we" (or at least "some of us") are the problem, but not in the way you're suggesting. The problem is not that we impose our different interpretations on a biblical passage. The problems are that (1) because we cannot live with the notion of a God who deals in ambiguity and mystery, we delude ourselves that there is a single "correct" interpretation waiting to be discovered, and (2) because we ourselves cannot live with ambiguity and mystery, we are psychologically compelled to insist that our interpretation is the correct one and to shout down anyone who has a different interpretation.