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The Bible Doesn't Say Anything

Runner said:
But your suggestion was that I should go back to the early church fathers as providing the definitive understanding. This is what I decline to do. I do go back to the early writings because they have great value and help inform my own understanding. Given the scholarship over the past several hundred years, I doubt seriously that the early church was better informed about anything than studious Christians are today. That would be like saying that we should go back to the 1965 books on the JFK assassination as definitive simply because the authors were closer to the event, when in fact what is known today dwarfs what was known then.



Perhaps they were, perhaps they weren't. I will inform myself about their positions and decide for myself. Why should I pretend that they didn't exist because some council decided they were heretics? Even if they were wrong and were indeed heretics, consideration of their views makes for a better-informed Christian.



I realized a long time ago that the only beliefs that would have sustaining meaning for me would be those that I developed for myself and in which I genuinely believed. I want (and have) a set of beliefs in which I really believe, ones that will allow me to stare life and death in the face without flinching. I will inform myself about others' beliefs, but ultimately only those beliefs that are based on my own experiences, observations, studies and intuition can have sustaining meaning for me. Again, your comment seems to suggest that I should default to the writings as the Apostolic Fathers as though they were in some sense definitive, something that I am simply unwilling to do. "I believe this because it is what the early church taught" is not, for me, a sufficient basis for genuine, sustaining belief.

You appear to be a "follower," willing to default to the judgment of others whom you regard as authoritative. I am and always have been the ultimate anti-follower. My post #65 on this thread, http://christianforums.net/Fellowship/index.php?threads/why-do-you-believe.64691/page-4#post-1363639, explains where I am coming from as well as I can. Perhaps my opinion of my beliefs strikes you as "over-inflated," but it happens to be inflated just right for me. The point you seem to miss is that the beliefs of someone such as myself are not merely personal beliefs in some toweringly arrogant sense, but rather beliefs that have been arrived at after wide experience, extensive observation, intense study and a great deal of prayer and reflection. At the end of that process, I do not merely say "These are the beliefs I hold" (and certainly not "These are the beliefs you should hold") but rather "These are the only beliefs I can hold and remain true to myself."
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hello Runner, dirtfarmer here

I agree with your statement, that the only beliefs that are sustainable are those that you have developed, but we have to be careful to make sure that we compare scripture with scripture. Other wise our beliefs are grounded in the doctrine of men, even though they may be biblically based. If we find that our interpretation of scripture is contrary with other scripture then we need to find out to whom it was written and then determine if it contradicts itself. it is does then we have a misinterpretation.
 
OzSpen said:
Please try using the KISS principle with:
  • 1 Tim 2:15 (ESV), 'Yet she will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control';
  • 1 Cor 15:29 (ESV), 'Otherwise, what do people mean by being baptized on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized on their behalf?'
  • Paul told the women in Corinth, 'As in all the churches of the saints, the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says' (1 Cor 14:33b-34 ESV). Women are to be silent but what does 1 Cor 11:5 state? 'But every wife [a woman] who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonours her head, since it is the same as if her head were shaven' (ESV). So women are told to 'keep silent in the churches' but wives (who are women) can prophesy. Try prophesying in the church when women are silent!
  • The KISS principle breaks down when there are difficult passages to interpret. Instead of KISS, I recommend, 'Work hard so you can present yourself to God and receive his approval. Be a good worker, one who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly explains the word of truth' (2 Tim 2:15 NLT).
Oz
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not my post to K,I.S.S
 
Nick said:
I tend to agree. While I'm sure Papa isn't diminishing the role of the Holy Spirit in helping us interpret and understand the Bible, it could be easy to come to that conclusion.

Yes, everyone comes to their own conclusion based on their interpretation. But there is an absolute truth in there. Sadly in this sinful age we can not gain the entire picture. That will come later.

We must pray for understanding. We have a helper.
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I agree. We will know all soon enough. In the meantime, those who feel they know more....be careful how you treat others with what you might consider to be your advantage over them. Before you know it, the Lord will come...and just like that....your "advantage" disappears as we ALL come into spiritual knowledge. Then all you have left is how you acted before all was made known to all.
 
OzSpen said:
ezra,

It was most certainly you who stated, 'how about just using the kiss method keep it simple stupid (not directed at any one)' in #68.

Oz
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ok what is you want me to clarify that you dont understand ? i am not going to back track to find out what i posted. let me clarify once again my kiss method. keep it simple stupid===== in reference to ME . so what part did i post that you dont understand?
 
ezra said:
not my post to K,I.S.S
Click to expand...
  • The KISS principle breaks down when there are difficult passages to interpret. Instead of KISS, I recommend, 'Work hard so you can present yourself to God and receive his approval. Be a good worker, one who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly explains the word of truth' (2 Tim 2:15 NLT).
Click to expand...
lol i call the gnat straining keep it simple---- bring it down to a level anyone can understand there is no break down as you suggest.. i do study to show my self approved using the kiss method.. i am very familiar with Christian forums i see words like gender neutral they like to use big enticing words. Jesus used parables the sower fishers of men wheat and tares .things that people in that day could grasp hold of . i use everday examples stories i have a message on how the Grinch stole Christmas --the sneetches (spelling) one group had starts the other did not reminds me of many church folks i am Pentecostal i have been baptized in the spirit.. i speak with tongues . i am baptist Pentecostals are nuts speaking in tongues is of the devil . they end by saying i am saved sanctified and satisfied. one group of baptist believes in foot washing the other dont .paul wrote My message and my preaching were not with persuasive words of wisdom," but with a demonstration of the Spirit's power," the Holy Spirit is not the author of confusion. preach jesus and him crucified . along with what Jesus said seek ye FIRST the kingdom of GOD and "His RIGHTEOUSNESS " and all these things will be added . put God first and the rest will pan out one way or the other ... Good enough if not sorry
 
ezra said:
ok what is you want me to clarify that you dont understand ? i am not going to back track to find out what i posted. let me clarify once again my kiss method. keep it simple stupid===== in reference to ME . so what part did i post that you dont understand?
Click to expand...

ezra,

it's not that I don't understand, but I'm concerned for the paradox you stated in #68:

'to me it really does not matter who or what Tertullian was. i have my bible i have my online sources .to aid me .i look up what words mean.. how about just using the kiss method keep it simple stupid (not directed at any one }'​

You don't appreciate the Bible teaching in the 2nd-3rd century of Tertullian, but it's OK to accept 'online sources to aid me'. You 'look up what words mean'

Who wrote the' online sources'? Bible teachers! Who wrote the meaning of words that you check? Bible teachers!

You reject one early Bible teacher but accept some later Bible teachers. Don't you see the hypocrisy in this stance?

Don't you think that we can use the KISS principle in pursuing what Acts 17:11 tells us to do? 'The Berean Jews were very glad to receive Paul’s message. They studied the Scriptures carefully every day. They wanted to see if what Paul said was true. So they were more noble than the Thessalonian Jews' (NIRV).

So whether it's an early church father as a Bible teacher, Tertullian, or a contemporary Bible teacher, it is the Christians' responsibility to compare any teacher's teaching with Scripture. That's for you, me and all Christians. For many, they require Bible teachers to help them.

Is that promoting bigotry or biblical Christianity?

Oz
 
ezra said:
lol i call the gnat straining keep it simple---- bring it down to a level anyone can understand there is no break down as you suggest.. i do study to show my self approved using the kiss method.. i am very familiar with Christian forums i see words like gender neutral they like to use big enticing words. Jesus used parables the sower fishers of men wheat and tares .things that people in that day could grasp hold of . i use everday examples stories i have a message on how the Grinch stole Christmas --the sneetches (spelling) one group had starts the other did not reminds me of many church folks i am Pentecostal i have been baptized in the spirit.. i speak with tongues . i am baptist Pentecostals are nuts speaking in tongues is of the devil . they end by saying i am saved sanctified and satisfied. one group of baptist believes in foot washing the other dont .paul wrote My message and my preaching were not with persuasive words of wisdom," but with a demonstration of the Spirit's power," the Holy Spirit is not the author of confusion. preach jesus and him crucified . along with what Jesus said seek ye FIRST the kingdom of GOD and "His RIGHTEOUSNESS " and all these things will be added . put God first and the rest will pan out one way or the other ... Good enough if not sorry
Click to expand...

ezra,

We are not on the same page.

:wave

Oz
 
I was trying to be funnier earlier. I think it does matter that we are on the same page in some issues regarding the Christian faith. On other issues, there is tons of room for disagreement (including disagreement on what we can freely disagree on) ;)
 
Papa Zoom said:
I was trying to be funnier earlier. I think it does matter that we are on the same page in some issues regarding the Christian faith. On other issues, there is tons of room for disagreement (including disagreement on what we can freely disagree on) ;)
Click to expand...
certainly we should be on the same page on certain things . when it comes to my personal way of presenting the Bible ..we dont have to be on the exact same page. the message stays the same the method dont .
 
I'm closing this thread temporarily. I will soon clean up some posts that got too personal. After a bit of a break we'll open it up again.
 
Once again, the OP: You have to read the Bible for it to "say" anything to you. You then have to interpret what you are reading. Since the Bible was NOT written to you your next task is to understand the intended audience and at the very least, try to understand how, in the context of the audience's culture (not yours) they would have taken the words spoken. If you have an immediate understanding of what you are reading, you're probably wrong. The Bible isn't a book that you can read and say, "Okay, there it is, plain and simple."

Verses don't exist in the Bible. Context does. If you build your theology or doctrine around a smattering of verses, changes are you have it all wrong. It's context and it's the WHOLE of the Bible that matters.

Scripture interprets Scripture. If understanding the Bible were so easy, we'd have not need for discussion groups. We'd all think alike and believe exactly the same thing.

The Holy Spirit has an important role in our understandings. Unfortunately, the HS gets used and abused to satisfy our own biases.

People often say the HS led them to this or that as if that settles the matter. But if two people claim the HS's leading, and have opposite conclusions (which is OFTEN the case) one or both are out to lunch. I believe both are out to lunch.

Anyone who claims they are right and CAN'T be wrong should be ignored. Arrogance has no place in the Christian walk. Yes folks, you could be wrong and probably are wrong more than you are right. Like me, your understanding is NOT perfect and Bible study is hard work. It's serious business and we ought to approach it with reverence and humility.

Since I am the OP, I can say these are the thinking behind the OP. It's worth considering. Even the Berens had to search the Scriptures to see if what they heard was true. I imagine they had quite a conversation while doing so.

If you have a knee jerk reaction to anything I said here, go get your knees checked. They are malfunctioning. ;) We know in part whether we like it or not.
 
there is no one certain method to study . some like to use references of the men of old dating back in late 1800 or when ever they wrote . i read the word i use a Thompson chain . i have study Bibles one is a scofield study bible. i use commentaries i use dictionaries i even do research on the net . a good reference Bible is good to main thing is just do it
 
ezra said:
there is no one certain method to study . some like to use references of the men of old dating back in late 1800 or when ever they wrote . i read the word i use a Thompson chain . i have study Bibles one is a scofield study bible. i use commentaries i use dictionaries i even do research on the net . a good reference Bible is good to main thing is just do it
Click to expand...

ezra,

What method would you use to determine which of these is correct? (1) Jesus' resurrection was a bodily resurrection (William Lane Craig), or (2) It was an apparition (a spiritual experience of a ghost or phantom) [John Dominic Crossan. See the abstract of my PhD dissertation on Crossan & the resurrection].

Oz
 
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