'The Bible tells me so' is wrong

[th1b.taylor]

hello th1b.taylor, dirtfarmer here

I am sorry that you think I am rude. Does word does not always mean written, it can be oral. In Deuteronomy It seems to be oral.

Acts 7:22 states the Moses was educated in all the wisdom of the Egyptians.

Yes, Moses

hello th1b.taylor, dirtfarmer here

I am sorry that you think I am rude. Does word does not always mean written, it can be oral. In Deuteronomy It seems to be oral.

Acts 7:22 states the Moses was educated in all the wisdom of the Egyptians.

Yes, Moses had the same education as the Pharoh and would have been fluent in several languages and their scripts. it is told, often, that the Hebrews did not have any copy of the written word but now think, God wrote the Ten Commandments on those stones, twice! The written Word is important to our God or He would never have set the standard. You should take up a one year read through

 

[dirtfarmer]

Yes, Moses

Yes, Moses had the same education as the Pharoh and would have been fluent in several languages and their scripts. it is told, often, that the Hebrews did not have any copy of the written word but now think, God wrote the Ten Commandments on those stones, twice! The written Word is important to our God or He would never have set the standard. You should take up a one year read through

hello th1b.taylor, dirtfarmer here

Thanks for the suggestion, I have read through both old and new testaments several times.

 

[th1b.taylor]

hello th1b.taylor, dirtfarmer here

Thanks for the suggestion, I have read through both old and new testaments several times.

You need to do so prayerfully and slowoly and let God teach you from it, brother.

 

[dirtfarmer]

You need to do so prayerfully and slowoly and let God teach you from it, brother.

hello th1b.taylor, dirtfarmer here

Thanks for the advice.

 

[K2CHRIST]

My questions were rhetorical and were intended to get you to think about what you are saying. Jesus's life, ministry, death, and resurrection are all historical fact. Paul tells us in 1 Cor. 15 that if Jesus didn't rise again, then our faith is meaningless, we are lost in our sins, and we are to be the most pitied among man. Our faith then, is based on the historical fact that Jesus rose again.

The above is a problem. Our faith is NOT based on the historical fact that Jesus rose again, it is based upon the current reality that Jesus rose again!

The difference being that if we base our faith on a historical fact we look at history, but if we based in on a current reality we look to Jesus today!! And it is written, "Today if you hear His voice".

It might be nice and good to know the history but faith in Jesus Christ means hearing from Him today!!!

And that is the problem brought up in this thread. We are saying "The Bible tells me so" but we should be say "The Lord Jesus Christ tells me so."

One implies that Jesus rose and sits in some far off place called heaven so we have to study the Bible to find out what He says to us. But Paul wrote : "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN'. (Rm 10:6)

At that point in Romans Paul was discussing Jews that were zealous for God but not according to their actually knowing Him. They were zealous for the Scriptures, the traditions, and the teaching from men handed down. Today they would say, "Because the Bible tells me so." Paul was zealous for the Lord because Paul heard from Him, on the road, telling Him where to go or not to go, and by hearing the Lord speak to Him in His heart, via the Holy Spirit which is the Spirit of Christ. So Paul wrote about hearing by faith, meaning a current situation, not as a historical fact. And that is what our faith is based on![/QUOTE]

 

[K2CHRIST]

The above is a problem. Our faith is NOT based on the historical fact that Jesus rose again, it is based upon the current reality that Jesus rose again!

The difference being that if we base our faith on a historical fact we look at history, but if we based in on a current reality we look to Jesus today!! And it is written, "Today if you hear His voice".

It might be nice and good to know the history but faith in Jesus Christ means hearing from Him today!!!

And that is the problem brought up in this thread. We are saying "The Bible tells me so" but we should be say "The Lord Jesus Christ tells me so."

One implies that Jesus rose and sits in some far off place called heaven so we have to study the Bible to find out what He says to us. But Paul wrote : "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN'. (Rm 10:6)

 

[Douglas Summers]

I happen to be a researcher and I don't choose to believe what any other scholars state without an examination of and assessment of the evidence. I did read the link you gave.:halo

As I do also. Too many do not search the Scriptures, to see if it true.

 

[smaller]

And that is the problem brought up in this thread. We are saying "The Bible tells me so" but we should be say "The Lord Jesus Christ tells me so."

One implies that Jesus rose and sits in some far off place called heaven so we have to study the Bible to find out what He says to us. But Paul wrote : "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN'. (Rm 10:6)

A similar observation has been brought up several times now. That there is supposedly some "difference" between God and His Word. Many alternate sights of trying to make a difference between God and His Word exist by historical elimination of Gods Words, restricting their efficacy to the place in time spoken or who Words were spoken to. All these various methodologies are restrictions imposed by the viewers. Theologians have always grappled and forced various limitations and restrictions with these kinds of impositions.

There are simple examples of why restrictions that force differences or eliminations don't and won't work. We know "The Word" is Eternal. By way of similar example in math, we can look at the symbol for infinity (the lemniscate):

View attachment 10078


And we know that it is symbolic of math matters that have essentially unlimited numbers in the equation, without ending. Does that symbol capture all of those digits? No. It expresses a 'concept' of what the unlimited digits in equation are.

Gods Words are ALL similar in nature. They capture conceptually, conveyances that are "eternal" in nature, with the added kicker of being without beginning or ending. This is also why christian theology is it's own area of study, because it presents unique to itself principles that are only understood and known by it's own internal presentations/representations in the documents. Science is not the appropriate tool of understanding. Man's logic is not the appropriate tool of understanding. History is not the appropriate tool of understanding. Though many an attempt is made to force the Words into those kinds of sifters. None of them work because all are limits applied to an unlimited presentation.

So, when Gods Word speaks, it still speaks today as effectively as it was ever Spoken. There is no difference between the author and His Words, Spoken.

The Word and The Spirit are in complete and Perfect accord. Does hard type on paper capture or define the Spirit? No. Does the Spirit capture the hard type on paper? No. There is a TWO aspect nature with the Word, that being hard set and that which is internal or Spiritual in nature. The Word without the Spirit is just that. The Spirit without the Word has no anchor of reality.

The startling thing about the Word is, that by it's introduction, it does engage each reader on a personal level, as they are made to have their connection by The Word. God does meet each person He calls by it, personally. And engages them, personally. The Author is in our hearts to do so, by His Spirit.

So, critics of this matter say, if this is so, why then so many voices, alternative sights, discord, etc. And that answer is obviously the people being engaged all have their own respective issues, that we all grapple with from the seat of our present and likewise real "subjectivity." In philosophical terms it may be described as The Word/Spirit as unbound Objective meeting and engaging a similar form of infinitely detailed subjectivity. And this concept is also expressed in Word by such matters as Male/Female for example. Or the natural man and the spiritual man. These are again, concepts of greater concepts.

In Gods Terms, by His Nature, everyday, every moment is NOW and always has been. He does not "change" with time, nor is God affected or limited by time. Everyday is also "judgment day" because He Is Judge. This doesn't change either. But when our subjectivity picks up these concepts we try to organize the subject matter to our own sights, which we perceive in linear time sequences. Which is how we end up viewing Revelation as some future judgment time. But God Himself is Judgment, always and ever.

Not getting the picture in these matters is actually getting it, by submitting to the Eternal Aspects of God. There is no way for us to corral eternity and make God bow to our limitations.

This is also why christian theology is frustrating for some who insist that God and understandings MUST bow to man's logic sequences. Uh, no, that isn't the case and can't "logically" be the case, even by using man's logic. How so?

Man has a factually LIMITED amount of data with which to make logic exercises. God has no such limitations in His Logic. He knows all things. We don't. So taking our factually limited data sets and forcing those kinds of limitations on the Objective can't logically work. We do not have that kind of data at our disposal.

And the Word is uniquely designed to frustrate such attempts. For every imposer of man's logic, Gods Word has already set a blockade where that type of logic will be cancelled out by another data set that will defy it. And this frustrates people who impose their logic on Gods Word to no end. But it's done Precisely and Divinely to make such frustrations. I might even say it's meant to DECEIVE us by showing us our own internal deceptions and limited devices.

But, for those who bow to the concepts, to The Author, understanding their OWN limitations, and why these limitations exist, other avenues that can't be seen by manipulators and devices, will open and appear that can NOT appear to others.

This is where Jesus will say for example, He sets a door that can't be opened or that cannot be shut. This is a REAL matter that exists not only in Word, but in reality. That represents two opposing logic concepts with surface analysis, but both 100% true. Man's logic has a very hard time going there. But those who submit to certain concepts the Word gives on how this is so, will be shown HOW it is so. And shown so in their own life, real time.

1 Corinthians 16:9
For a great door and effectual is opened unto me, and there are many adversaries.

The above, expressed by The Spirit, IS the Cadence of God in Christ.

Colossians 4:3
Withal praying also for us, that God would open unto us a door of utterance, to speak the mystery of Christ, for which I am also in bonds:

Same Concepts, in play. Readers, by the facts of our own bonds, our factual limitations, are always and invariably LED deadlong into only the BLUE aspects of the Word, and they NEVER hear the TWO aspect Divine Cadence. Love/Judgment. You can also tell any deceiver or any natural man imposer/poser, instantly, when they seek to lay all the red Words on somebody else. That's NOT how The Word meant to be heard or employed. Every Word is meant for every reader. And yes, this is a difficult place to find hearing. Purposefully so.

Revelation 3:8
I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

Luke 13:25
When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:

In the final analysis, only The Living Author can bring any reader into understanding.

 

[th1b.taylor]

A similar observation has been brought up several times now. That there is supposedly some "difference" between God and His Word. Many alternate sights of trying to make a difference between God and His Word exist by historical elimination of Gods Words, restricting their efficacy to the place in time spoken or who Words were spoken to. All these various methodologies are restrictions imposed by the viewers. Theologians have always grappled and forced various limitations and restrictions with these kinds of impositions.

There are simple examples of why restrictions that force differences or eliminations don't and won't work. We know "The Word" is Eternal. By way of similar example in math, we can look at the symbol for infinity (the lemniscate):

View attachment 10078


And we know that it is symbolic of math matters that have essentially unlimited numbers in the equation, without ending. Does that symbol capture all of those digits? No. It expresses a 'concept' of what the unlimited digits in equation are.

Gods Words are ALL similar in nature. They capture conceptually, conveyances that are "eternal" in nature, with the added kicker of being without beginning or ending. This is also why christian theology is it's own area of study, because it presents unique to itself principles that are only understood and known by it's own internal presentations/representations in the documents. Science is not the appropriate tool of understanding. Man's logic is not the appropriate tool of understanding. History is not the appropriate tool of understanding. Though many an attempt is made to force the Words into those kinds of sifters. None of them work because all are limits applied to an unlimited presentation.

So, when Gods Word speaks, it still speaks today as effectively as it was ever Spoken. There is no difference between the author and His Words, Spoken.

The Word and The Spirit are in complete and Perfect accord. Does hard type on paper capture or define the Spirit? No. Does the Spirit capture the hard type on paper? No. There is a TWO aspect nature with the Word, that being hard set and that which is internal or Spiritual in nature. The Word without the Spirit is just that. The Spirit without the Word has no anchor of reality.

The startling thing about the Word is, that by it's introduction, it does engage each reader on a personal level, as they are made to have their connection by The Word. God does meet each person He calls by it, personally. And engages them, personally. The Author is in our hearts to do so, by His Spirit.

So, critics of this matter say, if this is so, why then so many voices, alternative sights, discord, etc. And that answer is obviously the people being engaged all have their own respective issues, that we all grapple with from the seat of our present and likewise real "subjectivity." In philosophical terms it may be described as The Word/Spirit as unbound Objective meeting and engaging a similar form of infinitely detailed subjectivity. And this concept is also expressed in Word by such matters as Male/Female for example. Or the natural man and the spiritual man. These are again, concepts of greater concepts.

In Gods Terms, by His Nature, everyday, every moment is NOW and always has been. He does not "change" with time, nor is God affected or limited by time. Everyday is also "judgment day" because He Is Judge. This doesn't change either. But when our subjectivity picks up these concepts we try to organize the subject matter to our own sights, which we perceive in linear time sequences. Which is how we end up viewing Revelation as some future judgment time. But God Himself is Judgment, always and ever.

Not getting the picture in these matters is actually getting it, by submitting to the Eternal Aspects of God. There is no way for us to corral eternity and make God bow to our limitations.

This is also why christian theology is frustrating for some who insist that God and understandings MUST bow to man's logic sequences. Uh, no, that isn't the case and can't "logically" be the case, even by using man's logic. How so?

Man has a factually LIMITED amount of data with which to make logic exercises. God has no such limitations in His Logic. He knows all things. We don't. So taking our factually limited data sets and forcing those kinds of limitations on the Objective can't logically work. We do not have that kind of data at our disposal.

And the Word is uniquely designed to frustrate such attempts. For every imposer of man's logic, Gods Word has already set a blockade where that type of logic will be cancelled out by another data set that will defy it. And this frustrates people who impose their logic on Gods Word to no end. But it's done Precisely and Divinely to make such frustrations. I might even say it's meant to DECEIVE us by showing us our own internal deceptions and limited devices.

But, for those who bow to the concepts, to The Author, understanding their OWN limitations, and why these limitations exist, other avenues that can't be seen by manipulators and devices, will open and appear that can NOT appear to others.

This is where Jesus will say for example, He sets a door that can't be opened or that cannot be shut. This is a REAL matter that exists not only in Word, but in reality. That represents two opposing logic concepts with surface analysis, but both 100% true. Man's logic has a very hard time going there. But those who submit to certain concepts the Word gives on how this is so, will be shown HOW it is so. And shown so in their own life, real time.

1 Corinthians 16:9
For a great door and effectual is opened unto me, and there are many adversaries.

The above, expressed by The Spirit, IS the Cadence of God in Christ.

Colossians 4:3
Withal praying also for us, that God would open unto us a door of utterance, to speak the mystery of Christ, for which I am also in bonds:

Same Concepts, in play. Readers, by the facts of our own bonds, our factual limitations, are always and invariably LED deadlong into only the BLUE aspects of the Word, and they NEVER hear the TWO aspect Divine Cadence. Love/Judgment. You can also tell any deceiver or any natural man imposer/poser, instantly, when they seek to lay all the red Words on somebody else. That's NOT how The Word meant to be heard or employed. Every Word is meant for every reader. And yes, this is a difficult place to find hearing. Purposefully so.

Revelation 3:8
I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

Luke 13:25
When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:

In the final analysis, only The Living Author can bring any reader into understanding.

Smaller,
I wish I spoke that elloquently, your education far exceeds the eighth grade. Great post.

 

[K2CHRIST]

A similar observation has been brought up several times now. That there is supposedly some "difference" between God and His Word

Today we call both Jesus Christ and the Scriptures "The Word". The Greek word the writers of the Bible used for the Scriptures was Graphe. Anytime you see the word Scriptures translated from the greek you will find the word Graphe behind it. Graphe is never translated "The Word" in your bible However most preachers I hear today use "The Word" to mean the Scriptures!

So was does the quote above mean?

There is a difference between God and the Scriptures!

This is easily seen in several places in the bible. Gal 3:22 But the Scriptures (Graphe - but what many call the Word) has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

There is a clear difference between the Scriptures (The Word) and Jesus Christ (The Word) demonstrated in the above verse. Indeed, I have pointed this out several times, but perhaps we have been confused into thinking the Scriptures are Christ? Jesus Christ is God, but the Scriptures are not. Simply because God is alive and active. He makes decisions. He takes actions. The Scriptures however are writings that God had people write. Thus they are not alive, They can't think. They can't take actions.

But there is nothing new under the sun. This mistake was made in the past also. So another place we see the difference between God and the Scriptures (His Word) is seen in John chapter 5.

Jn 5: 39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me, and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.

So again we see we have the sacred writings and we have Jesus Christ and they are not the same. The writing were supposed to tell you about Jesus Christ, but at that time (and this time also) not everyone realize the Scriptures (the Word) does not save them. Coming to and getting to know Jesus Christ is what saved you.

Of course Moses knew that and tried to explained it. Moses wrote this information down, but the Jews then ( and because there is nothing new under the Sun, it still happens) just didn't get it.

Jn 5:47 For if you believed Moses you would believe Me. But uf you do not believe his writings how will you believe Me words?

The Scriptures (The Word as we love to say) is supposed to get us to turn to the Christ whom is called Jesus (God's salvation). But there are going to be people (because again there is nothing new under the sun) that are not going to turn to Jesus Christ. They will have trouble understanding the Jesus Christ is really around to talk to them in that still small voice we pickup via the Holy Spirit. So the read the Bible (Scriptures) and think that reading the Scriptures is God talking to them, and concluded that their searching the Scriptures will give them eternal life. After all we call the Scriptures "the Word" and it is written the Word was with God and the Word was God (Jn1:1) But the Scriptures call Jesus Christ the Word (because He came and talk with those that wrote the Bible and wants to talk to us).

So then we see the problem in thread. If we think the Bible is God talking to us, instead of seeking the small voice of the Lord we are going to start thinking the Scriptures are the foundation for our faith. But Jesus Christ is the foundation for our faith; meaning we need to know Him and listen to His personal instructions for us, just like the Scriptures explain. So we say, "The Bible tells me so" , instead of "Jesus tells me so." and can't see the problem we have anymore than those Jews Jesus talked to, trying to explain it explain it to them.

The problem is very simply but very hard to explain to someone who doesn't practice listening with their spiritual ears!

Heb 5:11 Concerning him we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing. For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the elementary principles of the oracles of God... solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.

Listening to the Lord is an elementary principle of Christianity. And if you listen to Him you will not get confused about the difference between the Scriptures (the Word) and Jesus Christ (The Word). We call the Bible (the Scriptures) the Word because God had people write down things and events including but not necessarily the words of God. You will also find words from Satan, but we group them in with what we call (The Word of God), And the Scriptures call Jesus Christ the Word of God because He was the One who came and talked to those who wrote the Bible. He wants to talk to us too and He has the words of God personally for you. You can wake up in the morning ask Him if it is time to get up or not and God answers you. He can help you with what clothes to wear, what food to get, what Scriptures to read that day, and if you indeed practice listening to Him you will understand all that. So do we practice listening to Him through out the day, or have we become dull of hearing?

 

[smaller]

Today we call both Jesus Christ and the Scriptures "The Word". The Greek word the writers of the Bible used for the Scriptures was Graphe. Anytime you see the word Scriptures translated from the greek you will find the word Graphe behind it. Graphe is never translated "The Word" in your bible However most preachers I hear today use "The Word" to mean the Scriptures!

So was does the quote above mean?

There is a difference between God and the Scriptures!

And I would propose that is absurdity. There is no "rift" between God, His Spirit and His recorded Word. But many try to make such claims. They are simply wrong in how they perceive the Word. I gave the example prior of the infinity sign representing a concept. Gods Word is no different. It "represents" concepts such as His Eternal Being, His Eternal Love, His Eternal Judgments, etc.

Do those words on paper encompass what they convey? No! They do however accurately represent the concepts provided therein BY GOD, for us to engage.

This is easily seen in several places in the bible. Gal 3:22 But the Scriptures (Graphe - but what many call the Word) has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

And equally pointed to in the scriptures is that sin/evil are not 'forensic' in nature. Therefore they are of an adverse or disobedient "spiritual nature." Does the type on paper represent this concept? Of course. But is the type on paper that? Of course not. Again, conceptually, we are treated in His written Word to these "metaphysical" realities.

Do the Words themselves, mean anything apart from recognizing what they are pointing to? Of course not.

There is a clear difference between the Scriptures (The Word) and Jesus Christ (The Word) demonstrated in the above verse.

Perhaps, in your mind, that is what you think. But it is just as much only you forcing a divide that doesn't technically exist.

Indeed, I have pointed this out several times, but perhaps we have been confused into thinking the Scriptures are Christ? Jesus Christ is God, but the Scriptures are not. Simply because God is alive and active. He makes decisions. He takes actions. The Scriptures however are writings that God had people write. Thus they are not alive, They can't think. They can't take actions.

We could type, here: "Jesus Is Lord of ALL." Now, is that a statement of fact, conceptually? Of course. To a believer, this is a truthful statement. But if we print that out, cut it out and hold it up, is THAT Jesus, as Lord of all? Of course not. And nobody with half a wit would ever claim that is so.

But there is nothing new under the sun. This mistake was made in the past also. So another place we see the difference between God and the Scriptures (His Word) is seen in John chapter 5.
Jn 5: 39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me, and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.

See previous example. Printing out "Jesus Is Lord of ALL" on a piece of paper and wrapping it around our forehead, externally, or wearing same as a hand phylactery is utter nonsense. That "mistake" exists ONLY in the handlers, not the Word.

So again we see we have the sacred writings and we have Jesus Christ and they are not the same. The writing were supposed to tell you about Jesus Christ, but at that time (and this time also) not everyone realize the Scriptures (the Word) does not save them. Coming to and getting to know Jesus Christ is what saved you.

There is not one without the other. Without His Word introductions, there is nothing to bring us, conceptually, to what He's actually SAID and Represented. Without the "written" concepts, we are simply left to our own faulted imaginations. That's how we wind up with all kinds of other imaginative nonsense, polytheism, pantheism, idolatry, self worship, materialism, reductionism, etc.

 

[Jim Parker]

Does word does not always mean written, it can be oral.

Oral teaching references
Act 2:42 And they devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching

RO 10:17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.
GAL 3:2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? ……….. 5 Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?

EPH 1:13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

EPH 6:19 Pray also for me, that whenever I open my mouth, words may be given me so that I will fearlessly make known the mystery of the gospel, 20 for which I am an ambassador in chains. Pray that I may declare it fearlessly, as I should.

PHP 4:9 Whatever you have learned or received or heard from me, or seen in me - put it into practice. And the God of peace will be with you.

COL 1:3 We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you, 4 because we have heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and of the love you have for all the saints-- 5 the faith and love that spring from the hope that is stored up for you in heaven and that you have already heard about in the word of truth, the gospel 6 that has come to you. All over the world this gospel is bearing fruit and growing, just as it has been doing among you since the day you heard it and understood God's grace in all its truth

COL 1:22 … he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation-- 23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

1TH 2:13 And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is at work in you who believe.

1TH 4:1 Finally, brothers, we instructed you how to live in order to please God, as in fact you are living. Now we ask you and urge you in the Lord Jesus to do this more and more. 2 For you know what instructions we gave you by the authority of the Lord Jesus. (This is a reference to oral teaching.)

2TH 2:15 So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

1TI 3:14 Although I hope to come to you soon, I am writing you these instructions so that, 15 if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth. (The church is the pillar and foundation of faith, NOT the Bible)

2TI 1:13 What you heard from me, keep as the pattern of sound teaching, with faith and love in Christ Jesus.

2TI 2:2 … the things you have heard me say in the presence of many witnesses entrust to reliable men who will also be qualified to teach others.

HEB 2:1 We must pay more careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away. 2 For if the message spoken by angels was binding, and every violation and disobedience received its just punishment, 3 how shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him.

JAS 1:22 Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. 23 Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like a man who looks at his face in a mirror 24 and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. 25 But the man who looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues to do this, not forgetting what he has heard, but doing it--he will be blessed in what he does.

1JN 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched--this we proclaim concerning the Word of life………..3 We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ.

1JN 1:5 This is the message we have heardfrom him and declare to you:

1JN 2:7 Dear friends, I am not writing you a new command but an old one, which you have had since the beginning. This old command is the message you have heard.

1JN 2:24 See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father.

1JN 3:11 This is the message you heard from the beginning:

1JN 4:3 but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heardis coming and even now is already in the world.

2JN 1: 6 And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Oral teaching references
Act 2:42 And they devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching

RO 10:17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.
GAL 3:2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? ……….. 5 Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?

EPH 1:13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

EPH 6:19 Pray also for me, that whenever I open my mouth, words may be given me so that I will fearlessly make known the mystery of the gospel, 20 for which I am an ambassador in chains. Pray that I may declare it fearlessly, as I should.

PHP 4:9 Whatever you have learned or received or heard from me, or seen in me - put it into practice. And the God of peace will be with you.

COL 1:3 We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you, 4 because we have heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and of the love you have for all the saints-- 5 the faith and love that spring from the hope that is stored up for you in heaven and that you have already heard about in the word of truth, the gospel 6 that has come to you. All over the world this gospel is bearing fruit and growing, just as it has been doing among you since the day you heard it and understood God's grace in all its truth

COL 1:22 … he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation-- 23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

1TH 2:13 And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is at work in you who believe.

1TH 4:1 Finally, brothers, we instructed you how to live in order to please God, as in fact you are living. Now we ask you and urge you in the Lord Jesus to do this more and more. 2 For you know what instructions we gave you by the authority of the Lord Jesus. (This is a reference to oral teaching.)

2TH 2:15 So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

1TI 3:14 Although I hope to come to you soon, I am writing you these instructions so that, 15 if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth. (The church is the pillar and foundation of faith, NOT the Bible)

2TI 1:13 What you heard from me, keep as the pattern of sound teaching, with faith and love in Christ Jesus.

2TI 2:2 … the things you have heard me say in the presence of many witnesses entrust to reliable men who will also be qualified to teach others.

HEB 2:1 We must pay more careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away. 2 For if the message spoken by angels was binding, and every violation and disobedience received its just punishment, 3 how shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him.

JAS 1:22 Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. 23 Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like a man who looks at his face in a mirror 24 and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. 25 But the man who looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues to do this, not forgetting what he has heard, but doing it--he will be blessed in what he does.

1JN 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched--this we proclaim concerning the Word of life………..3 We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ.

1JN 1:5 This is the message we have heardfrom him and declare to you:

1JN 2:7 Dear friends, I am not writing you a new command but an old one, which you have had since the beginning. This old command is the message you have heard.

1JN 2:24 See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father.

1JN 3:11 This is the message you heard from the beginning:

1JN 4:3 but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heardis coming and even now is already in the world.

2JN 1: 6 And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.

You have subjected every one of these scriptures to your personal preferances and the Holy Spirit in me just screams, Satan!

 

[K2CHRIST]

And I would propose that is absurdity. There is no "rift" between God, His Spirit and His recorded Word.

Of course there is "no rift" between God and the Scriptures He had written. But the Lord talking to you is not the same and the Lord talking to someone in the past. The Lord wants a personal relationship with us, and the Bible (what someone heard from God in the past) does not give us that. It should help us with see what the relationship could be like and that it is possible, but it is "absurdity" to think that reading God's conversation with Moses thousands of years ago is the same thing as listening to Him talk to you today.

He migh,t and I would expect ,that He would talk to you about that conversations He once had with Moses when the time is right. So you need to listen to Him as to where and when to read your Bible. But it is not "The Bible Says" , it is "The Lord says". And people have historically gotten that wrong, and they still do. They start looking to their Bible and glorifying their Bible, and saying the Bible is alive and active. And the Bible has power. And the Bible gives me life. And "the Bible says." When they should be glorifying the Lord Jesus Christ, and saying Jesus Christ is alive. And Jesus Christ has power. And Jesus Christ give me life. And "Jesus Christ says", and that happens when they are listening to Him.

So it become apparent that many are zealous for the Scriptures instead of our Lord Jesus Christ. And that happened in past, so it happens today. And it becomes apparent. The person zealous for the Scriptures will point you to them, raise them above their head spiritually speaking, get upset if you try to point out that our faith is not based upon the Scriptures but upon Jesus Christ, like the Scriptures say. They will come up with allsorts of ways to defend their precious Scriptures. But we are supposed to be point people to Jesus Christ, whose name is called the Word of God because He speaks to us.

The Holy Spirit once told me, "Karl, we don't use the Lord to preach the Scriptures, we use the Scriptures to preach the Lord."

But some have that backwards.

When in the bathroom one day the Lord told me, "Karl, I want you to preach the Word, but not as it is so often preached today. I want you to preach I Am the Word of God." And though it was just His small voice the I Am hit me with such power it sent me stumbling across my bathroom floor.

So we need to think about this. Are we preaching the Scriptures or are we using the Scriptures to preach Jesus Christ?

What are we doing when we write, "My Bible tells me so." How is it we are not writing "My Lord Jesus Christ tells me so."?

There is a problem, and it is nothing new. Jesus told the Jews they were searching the Scriptures thinking in them they had eternal life instead of coming to Him. And it becomes apparent that is still happening today. So is your zealousness for the Lord Jesus Christ or for the Scriptures? It is an eternal question, so it needs to be carefully considered!

 

[smaller]

Of course there is "no rift" between God and the Scriptures He had written. But the Lord talking to you is not the same and the Lord talking to someone in the past.

Again, same thing. IF what you say above is true, which it can't be, Jesus would not have made the factual statements of Matt. 4:4 and Luke 4:4. Yes, every Word of God is for us as well. Were your statement above true we'd have to toss the entire Bible.

The Lord wants a personal relationship with us, and the Bible (what someone heard from God in the past) does not give us that.

One can not see or hear what one tosses aside.

It should help us with see what the relationship could be like and that it is possible, but it is "absurdity" to think that reading God's conversation with Moses thousands of years ago is the same thing as listening to Him talk to you today.

I think it is more absurd to have a conversation with God over coffee and donuts. The Presence of the Holy Spirit is always with us. Do we really need a "personal conversation" over coffee and donuts? OR is it just a conversation we conjure up in our own head, thinking it is God talking to us? I would venture it's more of the latter in most cases.

He migh,t and I would expect ,that He would talk to you about that conversations He once had with Moses when the time is right.

We do come to know "how" The Spirit works from the Word, prior, beyond any doubt. I might describe that working as the working of the 'conscience.' Our heart tells us what is right/wrong. Do we really need God to speak to us, telling us to help the little old lady cross the street? Of course not. I find that premise somewhat ridiculous.

So you need to listen to Him as to where and when to read your Bible. But it is not "The Bible Says" , it is "The Lord says". And people have historically gotten that wrong, and they still do. They start looking to their Bible and glorifying their Bible, and saying the Bible is alive and active.

Again, there is no difference between God and His Own Words. Trying to pit the Spirit and the Word against or contrary to each others is just poor theology understanding. And then we replace Gods Words with our own mumbo jumbo, often imaginary conversations. I've been there, done that. The voices in our heads, our thoughts, are not always and only TRUE. This much is certain. But I've met many a charismatic who engage in the perpetual fantasy dialog in their own heads, God supposedly speaking to them constantly, telling them every move to make. It's nonsense. But, that being said, I do not rule out specific dictates. These do however require examination, prayer, studies, and sometimes the oversight of other believers. I've told many a charismatic the errors of such conversations being utter nonsense that are often not anything of God in Christ whatsoever, but their own imaginations and imaginary dialogs.

And the Bible has power. And the Bible gives me life. And "the Bible says." When they should be glorifying the Lord Jesus Christ, and saying Jesus Christ is alive. And Jesus Christ has power. And Jesus Christ give me life. And "Jesus Christ says", and that happens when they are listening to Him.

That is ALL true, but God does Work in accord with His Ways, detailed at length by His Own Words, which are our specific guidance. Do we really need little voices in our heads telling us to share the Love of God in Christ with others? I don't, personally. It's part of who I am. When we have little voices in our heads, we really are setting ourselves up for an alternate form of self subscribed legalism. "Do this." "OR else." Is the usual pattern of such dialogs. And that actually proves such internal conversations FALSE.

So it become apparent that many are zealous for the Scriptures instead of our Lord Jesus Christ. And that happened in past, so it happens today. And it becomes apparent. The person zealous for the Scriptures will point you to them, raise them above their head spiritually speaking, get upset if you try to point out that our faith is not based upon the Scriptures but upon Jesus Christ, like the Scriptures say.

There is no difference. God in Christ is always in full accord with His Own Words and His Spirit. There simply isn't the "divide" you think you see. Such a divide doesn't exist, except in the imaginary conversations of those who reject His Words or don't understand them.

They will come up with allsorts of ways to defend their precious Scriptures. But we are supposed to be point people to Jesus Christ, whose name is called the Word of God because He speaks to us.

There are many established, practical, truthful understandings established by Gods Words that ARE important to have. The Nicene creed for example is a great measure to know who is truthful to the Word and who is border line or in some cases, completely out of their minds, such as those who insist Jesus' proper name must be spelled and/or pronounced correctly OR ELSE. A lot of peoples religious minds are quite bonkers. And that comes from their own vile imaginations and imaginary conversations. I've met many a charismatic for example that think, in their minds, that Jesus had "lustful thoughts" LIKE we do. And that simply wasn't the case. But you couldn't tell them otherwise for all the tea in China because that's what they hear from their imaginary conversations with God.

The Holy Spirit once told me, "Karl, we don't use the Lord to preach the Scriptures, we use the Scriptures to preach the Lord."

But some have that backwards.

And I hope you see the circular reasoning you are employing. Of course we engage and use the scriptures.

2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

And, beyond this, this is what God Himself teaches us, in our own hearts:

1 Thessalonians 4:9
But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.

When in the bathroom one day the Lord told me, "Karl, I want you to preach the Word, but not as it is so often preached today. I want you to preach I Am the Word of God." And though it was just His small voice the I Am hit me with such power it sent me stumbling across my bathroom floor.

So we need to think about this. Are we preaching the Scriptures or are we using the Scriptures to preach Jesus Christ?

What are we doing when we write, "My Bible tells me so." How is it we are not writing "My Lord Jesus Christ tells me so."?

There is a problem, and it is nothing new. Jesus told the Jews they were searching the Scriptures thinking in them they had eternal life instead of coming to Him. And it becomes apparent that is still happening today. So is your zealousness for the Lord Jesus Christ or for the Scriptures? It is an eternal question, so it needs to be carefully considered!

If you are so moved, may all be so moved. But what and how you do teach and proclaim is never derived, truthfully, from our imaginations. Apart from Word is how all kinds of nutcases roll. They have no accountability but to their own nonsense, conjured up by partial sights, plucking and choosing and most often, deceiving. I've listened to many a deceiver in the pulpits. It was not until I "compared" what they said to what Paul or John or Peter or Jesus said, was I able to confirm that these people were in fact deceiving hypocritical liars. And that is when I learned to distrust the imaginary conversations, because the Word was telling me to 'fact check' what they were saying or even what "I" was saying or thinking.

 

[Jim Parker]

You have subjected every one of these scriptures to your personal preferances and the Holy Spirit in me just screams, Satan!

I have posted the scriptures.
If you don't like what the scripture says, that is your personal preference.

 

[th1b.taylor]

I have posted the scriptures.
If you don't like what the scripture says, that is your personal preference.

As you wish but that will not remove my prayer for your eternal soul because you cannot know the spirit leading you is God without scripture.

 

[OzSpen]

Of course there is "no rift" between God and the Scriptures He had written. But the Lord talking to you is not the same and the Lord talking to someone in the past. The Lord wants a personal relationship with us, and the Bible (what someone heard from God in the past) does not give us that. It should help us with see what the relationship could be like and that it is possible, but it is "absurdity" to think that reading God's conversation with Moses thousands of years ago is the same thing as listening to Him talk to you today.

He migh,t and I would expect ,that He would talk to you about that conversations He once had with Moses when the time is right. So you need to listen to Him as to where and when to read your Bible. But it is not "The Bible Says" , it is "The Lord says". And people have historically gotten that wrong, and they still do. They start looking to their Bible and glorifying their Bible, and saying the Bible is alive and active. And the Bible has power. And the Bible gives me life. And "the Bible says." When they should be glorifying the Lord Jesus Christ, and saying Jesus Christ is alive. And Jesus Christ has power. And Jesus Christ give me life. And "Jesus Christ says", and that happens when they are listening to Him.

So it become apparent that many are zealous for the Scriptures instead of our Lord Jesus Christ. And that happened in past, so it happens today. And it becomes apparent. The person zealous for the Scriptures will point you to them, raise them above their head spiritually speaking, get upset if you try to point out that our faith is not based upon the Scriptures but upon Jesus Christ, like the Scriptures say. They will come up with allsorts of ways to defend their precious Scriptures. But we are supposed to be point people to Jesus Christ, whose name is called the Word of God because He speaks to us.

The Holy Spirit once told me, "Karl, we don't use the Lord to preach the Scriptures, we use the Scriptures to preach the Lord."

But some have that backwards.

When in the bathroom one day the Lord told me, "Karl, I want you to preach the Word, but not as it is so often preached today. I want you to preach I Am the Word of God." And though it was just His small voice the I Am hit me with such power it sent me stumbling across my bathroom floor.

So we need to think about this. Are we preaching the Scriptures or are we using the Scriptures to preach Jesus Christ?

What are we doing when we write, "My Bible tells me so." How is it we are not writing "My Lord Jesus Christ tells me so."?

There is a problem, and it is nothing new. Jesus told the Jews they were searching the Scriptures thinking in them they had eternal life instead of coming to Him. And it becomes apparent that is still happening today. So is your zealousness for the Lord Jesus Christ or for the Scriptures? It is an eternal question, so it needs to be carefully considered!

From where do we learn that Jesus existed, died to save us from sin, and wants to have a relationship with us?

 

[OzSpen]

As you wish but that will not remove my prayer for your eternal soul because you cannot know the spirit leading you is God without scripture.

So if the Spirit prompts me to speak with the JWs who knock on my door, where in Scripture does it tell me to do that specifically?

 

[th1b.taylor]

So if the Spirit prompts me to speak with the JWs who knock on my door, where in Scripture does it tell me to do that specifically?

That is between you and the Witness'.