The birth date of Christ

[reba]

I have always thought if Jesus wanted us to go big time in celebrating His birthday as apposed to celebrating His birth.. the date and time would have been plastered all over scripture... I believe it is there just not in the headlines so to speak...

 

[tim-from-pa]

Nobody's fightin' so don't delete threads, anyone, please. Thanks.

 

[Edward]

Is astrology okay for Christians?

Genesis 1:14
14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:/(KJV)

Good question brother. Astrology is not okay for Christians as far as horoscopes and the worshipping of the stars and so forth, but according to scripture, they're there to show us signs and seasons and so forth. So they're good, but we have to be careful how we use them.

 

[Edward]

Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't read the rest of the thread before responding. If it is too far off topic then i will refrain from further discussion of it.

 

[brother Paul]

How about this....since we know He was about 33 1/2 when He was crucified and He was crucified on Passover (March/April, the Hebrew month Nisan) if you count back the 6 months, you can derive the month at least....(it was the Hebrew month of Tishri)

 

[jocor]

First, let's understand that Revelation 12:5 is definitely speaking of the birth of Christ. I have checked 4 sources (not that I had to) but from liberal ecumenical to more strict Church of God denominations they all agree this is talking about Christ's birth.

Sorry Tim, but I disagree that Revelation 12:5 is speaking of the birth of Christ. Rev.12:5 is a perfect picture of the resurrection of the saints.

Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.​

Verse 5 is usually misunderstood to mean Yeshua because Rev.19:15 states that Yeshua will rule with a rod of iron. However, Rev.2:27 states that the saints that overcome will also rule with a rod of iron. This means we need more evidence to prove the identity of the male child. "Caught up" comes from the Greek word "harpadzo" meaning to seize, to snatch away, to carry off (suddenly and by force). This forceful seizure of the child needs to be done because Satan is ready to devour it. In Luke 24:51 Yeshua is said to be "carried up into heaven." The Greek for "carried" is "anaphero" not "harpadzo" and it means to take up; to bear upwards. It is not a forceful carrying away. It is a slow, victorious ascent. However, in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 it does mean a forceful snatching. This would put more evidence in favor of the child representing the resurrected saints than Yeshua.

A similar occurrence of the birth of a male child takes place in Isaiah 66:7-10;

"Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child. Who hath heard such a thing? Who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? Or shall a nation be born at once? For as soon as Zion travailed , she brought forth her children. Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith Yahweh: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy mighty one. Rejoice ye with Jerusalem, and be glad with her, all ye that love her: rejoice for joy with her, all ye that mourn for her":
​

Here we see Jerusalem or Zion giving birth to a son before her labor pains came (vs. 7). Then in verse 8 we see her delivering children after having labor pains. We know these births are speaking about a resurrection because verse 8 says, "shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day?" Then we can say, "Shall a nation be born (or resurrected) at once?" What nation is referred to here?

1 Peter 2:9 says the believers are "a holy nation." When all believers are resurrected they will form a holy nation that dwells together all in the same place, not as we do now, each from different nations. Who is the mother of this nation of believers? Galatians 4:22-28 says that "Jerusalem which is above" is our mother. In the very next verse Paul quotes Isaiah 54:1 proving that the barren woman, Jerusalem or Zion, would be the mother of a great nation of children. The first child she had that was born or resurrected was Yeshua. He is the male child that is spoken of in Isaiah 66:7 who was delivered before labor pains. In Isaiah 66:9 we see that after Yeshua was born into the kingdom of heaven, Zion's womb was left open because another birth had to occur after labor pains began. Those labor pains symbolize the great tribulation.​

The prophets often compare the suffering of judgment and war with the pain and anguish that accompany childbirth (Jeremiah 6:24,25). So if labor pains equate with the great tribulation, which ends before the seven trumpets of Revelation sound, then the birth in Rev.12 occurs after the woman's labor pains start. In Rev.12:2 the woman is in labor which means she cannot be in labor with Yeshua because he was born without labor pains or before the great tribulation.

Rev 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.​

Chapter 12 is a picture of the saints being caught up into heaven at the coming of Yeshua after the seventh trumpet sounds. It is not a picture of Yeshua's earthly birth. I have more to offer, but I'll let you chew on that first.

 

[Obadiah]

Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't read the rest of the thread before responding. If it is too far off topic then i will refrain from further discussion of it.

Astrology as far as horoscopes, etc is not the topic of this thread. It's fine to discuss it if anyone would like to start another thread for that purpose. Discussing the astrological formations of the stars (is that the right term?) and their positions in the sky at various times as this thread is doing is not the same as discussing such things as horoscopes.

 

[Edward]

Astrology as far as horoscopes, etc is not the topic of this thread. It's fine to discuss it if anyone would like to start another thread for that purpose. Discussing the astrological formations of the stars (is that the right term?) and their positions in the sky at various times as this thread is doing is not the same as discussing such things as horoscopes.

Ok. gotcha.

 

[Butch5]

Ain't I a little early on this? Not really. The bible tells us directly when he was born and by extrapolation when he died.

For the latter, I use 3 criteria:

1. Determine when he was born based on Revelation 12
   
   
2. That he lived for 12240 days. The precise figure is from a more esoteric source, but in fact, many theologians claim he lived 33.5 years (i.e. started his ministry at 30, and his ministry lasted 3.5 years which is strongly supported by the bible.) This is 414.5 lunar months.
   
   
3. He had to die in a year such that the day he died and arose again was 3 days later. If we take a reasonable historical span from 26AD-36AD, only certain years allow for that.

I have come to a very precise year of his birth and death based on those 3 criteria, but this is mainly about his birth date. When is that?

First, let's understand that Revelation 12:5 is definitely speaking of the birth of Christ. I have checked 4 sources (not that I had to) but from liberal ecumenical to more strict Church of God denominations they all agree this is talking about Christ's birth. So, does it say when that was? It sure does.

There's astronomy, a conjunct of two words astro (star or heavenly body) and gnosis – knowledge. This is “star knowledge” like the famous Dr. Carl Sagan, and is the science of understanding space.

Then there's astrology, from astro (star) logos (words) or communication in the stars. Besides horoscopes, this astro-logos is a message in the stars to us from God. It's this “astro-logos” I'm interested in and practice.

So, what does Revelation 12 say? At the time of the birth of Christ, the woman was clothed with the sun. OK, that's cryptic for an astronomical position, so what are the zodiac signs the sun passes through? We know them, even though we want to deny it. Only ONE is a woman, and that's Virgo. Then it says the moon was under her feet, i.e. the next constellation, Libra. The moon conjunction with the sun (new moon) then passes to Libra in other words.

The heaven's like giant clock hands, tell us of the “times and seasons” acceptable to God and any other time is not. The sun at Christ's time was in Virgo around mid-September, and this configuration only occurs at the Feast of Trumpets, the feasts of the Lord being types and shadows of things to come. This is at New Moon. He died at Full moon 414.5 lunar cycles later.

So there you have it, in case you were wondering. It's all there in your bibles.

Hi Tim,

As I understand it the sign in Rev 12 appeared Sept.12, 3 BC. It's my understanding that in that year there were the normal 10 stars but Venus and Mercury were also visible forming the 12 stars of the crown.

 

[tim-from-pa]

Hi Tim,

As I understand it the sign in Rev 12 appeared Sept.12, 3 BC. It's my understanding that in that year there were the normal 10 stars but Venus and Mercury were also visible forming the 12 stars of the crown.

Hi Butch. Yes, I am aware of that, and that is the correct date (actually September 11 evening which is the start of September 12th on the Jewish calendar), if the year is correct, but I'll elaborate more later.

 

[tim-from-pa]

Now, my next clue to find the year of his birth, really involved finding the year of his death and the days of the week Nisan 14 occurred. People here who conversed with me know that I don't accept a Friday crucifixion day because there's no way to fit 3 whole days and nights from Friday late afternoon or evening until pre-dawn Sunday morning (Matthew 12:40). You can't even fit parts of days, so I don't even try to convince or negotiate that point as it is dismissed.

I believe it was Wednesday as only Wednesday sundown (start of Thursday) until Saturday sundown (start of Sunday) makes the 3 full days and nights criteria, but some have proposed Thursday, and that marginally makes the criteria if we count part of the time hanging on the cross and half way into Sunday, i.e. about 62 instead of 72 hours partial “inclusive” reckoning). That is possible if we could find such a day, but the following chart from 28AD until 36AD shows the visibility of the moon, and the likely days Passover was held that year. Most theologians figure historically from 26-36AD considering that that's when Pilate was in charge, but due to historical timing of John the baptist's ministry, no sooner than late 20's AD, and the upper end may be closer to 34AD considering the apostle Paul's conversion was about then give or take a little. So I use a little history to get a crude idea, and then let astronomy and numbers do the rest. Either the theory stands or falls:

28AD Tuesday

29AD Monday

30AD Friday

31AD Tuesday

32AD Monday

33AD Friday

34AD Wednesday

35AD Tuesday

36AD Saturday

This makes life easy. I have listed here virtually a decade of years to choose from, and only one makes the Wednesday criteria, and that's 34AD, the upper limit historically. That is March 24, 34AD to be more precise. Now, that I knew this, I could count back 12240 days (see criteria above in my earlier post). This is the real acid test, because if those days are correct, it had better hit Revelation 12's astronomical position accurately. Stay tuned for more later.

 

[Sinthesis]

What is the source for 12240 days?

 

[Deborah13]

Tim, I too believe it was on a Wed. in order to get the full days and nights. But I'm wondering why this chart is off from yours when it comes to what day Nissan 14 falls in what year?
http://www.judaismvschristianity.com/Passover_dates.htm

 

[Sinthesis]

Tim, I too believe it was on a Wed. in order to get the full days and nights. But I'm wondering why this chart is off from yours when it comes to what day Nissan 14 falls in what year?
http://www.judaismvschristianity.com/Passover_dates.htm

I don't trust that chart because it doesn't match up with its source material at: http://www.usno.navy.mil/USNO/astronomical-applications/data-services/spring-phenom

For example the source is in Julian while the chart claims Gregorian, yet they both claim April 11, 31AD as a Wednesday. Not to mention that Passover is Nisan 15, and not Nisan 14.

 

[Deborah13]

I don't trust that chart because it doesn't match up with its source material at: http://www.usno.navy.mil/USNO/astronomical-applications/data-services/spring-phenom

For example the source is in Julian while the chart claims Gregorian, yet they both claim April 11, 31AD as a Wednesday. Not to mention that Passover is Nisan 15, and not Nisan 14.

I looked at that before too but I don't have enough knowledge of these things to figure it out and not motivated enough to get it. They say they adjust for Greenwich time but the naval chart already gives it in Julian and they adjust to Gregorian? I also think they label that column as the Passover by including Nisan 14, the preparation day, in Passover or Days of Unleavened Bread. I'm not sure that this isn't premissable when looking at the scriptures.
I'm hoping Tim can explain his calculations so I can understand them. Good luck with that. 2
I thought this was interesting.
Exo 12:6 `And it hath become a charge to you, until the fourteenth day of this month, and the whole assembly of the company of Israel have slaughtered it between the evenings;
"
Hebrew between the two evenings.
The Jews divided the day into morning and evening: till the sun passed the meridian, all was morning or forenoon; after that, all was evening or afternoon. Their first evening began just after twelve o'clock, and continued till sunset; their second evening began at sunset, and continued till night, i
e., during the whole time of twilight; between twelve o'clock, therefore, and the termination of twilight, the passover was to be offered
See Parallel Passages.
16:12 Matthew 27:46-50
http://www.biblestudytools.com/concordances/treasury-of-scripture-knowledge/exodus-12-6.html

 

[Sparkey]

Just stopping in to thank everybody for their contributions - and to say that I'll be wanting to wait and hear Tim out. Then probably it will take me the rest of the summer to digest it. But mostly it's gratitude here.

~Sparrow

 

[tim-from-pa]

Have to run tonight, but the question is asked why there's calendar discrepancies, it's because some use calculated calendars and then project back. Of course calculations did not exist then so mine are days the moon would have been observed when a new crescent.

I'm a little leery of the Naval observatory charts. While they have the correct date for sighting a new moon, they are oftentimes a month late. I mean, just look at them, and some go into May. Passover (and the ripening barley) most often occurs near the full moon after equinox, not the next full moon (or rarely). But they have many such late dates which makes it unreliable.

 

[Sparkey]

I think you're on the right track. Thanks again.

 

[Deborah13]

Have to run tonight, but the question is asked why there's calendar discrepancies, it's because some use calculated calendars and then project back. Of course calculations did not exist then so mine are days the moon would have been observed when a new crescent.

I'm a little leery of the Naval observatory charts. While they have the correct date for sighting a new moon, they are oftentimes a month late. I mean, just look at them, and some go into May. Passover (and the ripening barley) most often occurs near the full moon after equinox, not the next full moon (or rarely). But they have many such late dates which makes it unreliable.

Thanks Tim, that makes sense. Passover would never fall in May. Looking forward to more posts.

 

[jocor]

Tim, Did you overlook post #26 or did you just choose not to reply to it?